Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

lemmer

I started to dislike the TL almost as soon as I had it -- good engine, but clearly not engineered by people who really understood handling and feel. Horrible clutch and steering.

To each his own. I find BMW clutches to be pretty mediocre and Acura clutches to be among the best.

markcincinnati

Everything I have read about the Acura TL with a manual transmission makes it sound like the reviewer has found heaven behind the wheel. If you are having issues with the feel of your clutch or whatever issue you are having, take it to the dealer -- maybe you really do have an out of whack unit.

Regarding the handling, there too, I have found the Acura comparble to the 2009 Audi I had right before I got the 2012 TL SH-AWD Advance.

I just wish the thing had Audi seats in it.

flightnurse

Regarding the HID lights, I was not aware about the force package, I'm sure once production is geared up and all models are in production things will change.

Nope, no trade in for me, we stopped by to talk to the sales guy about the535i or 550i, for 2012 the 550i now gets the 4.4l twin turbo that is in the M5. We drove both cars back to back and my partner really liked the 550i over the 535 you can't get a manual in the 535 but you can get one in 550i he likes that. So just hashing out details.

flightnurse

explain what you mean be mediocre?

sweendogy

I have never heard a complaint about the Acura clutch or shifter ever--- in fact I miss my 2000 GS-r because it was the nicest manual I have ever driven- I think you should bring it back for a check- I'm sure the Acura dealer has seen probably 2 other tl-s with stick in the past 5 years so dot be surprised I'd they don't know why to do with it. I think the bigger grip with the tL is its size, shape, performance and most of all looks. If this car was 5k less it's a steal- but it's priced against the g and anyone with a car magazine subscription or a pulse would pick the g - 10 out of 10 times.

nkeen

Mine was a 2005 TL. The clutch was like an on/off switch. The steering was heavy, with asymmetrical loading left to right (many visits to the dealer to fix this, all unsuccessful). Turning the car on a twisty expressway was like winding and unwinding a heavy spring. The car never settled down in cruise -- always fighting the steering. Great stereo, though, and one of the few cars where the auto a/c was able to hold a comfort level at one temp setting regardless of humidity and sunlight. Brembo front brakes, as the manuals had at that time. I got rid of it after about 18 months. The TSX of around the same vintage was a better if uninspiring car.

plekto

The clutch is actually better with a distinct on/off point. But the issue with the steering is because it's a front wheel drive car with manual. There is absolutely no way to fix it or alter the laws of Physics to make it work like a RWD car. The steering is also extremely dead feeling as far as feedback goes so that you get nothing and then tons of torque-steer in corners. (see Buick for this behavior)

Add in lower profile tires than it should be fitted with, plus unidirectional tires that fight each other (each side's tread wants to move the tire outwards) and it's a pretty miserable highway cruiser as well (note GM and Toyota have had this issue - the "fix" is to switch to non-directional tires)

It's a fancy Avalon. No surprise that it sucked as a makeshift sport sedan.

nkeen

Perhaps so. There weren't that many changes to the E90 options structure over time, one notable exception being the removal of the sunroof from the standard equipment list on the 328i, a scenario carried over to the F30. The engines were the big midstream changes, to meet the Japanese competition.

I'd bet that a lot of thought has gone into the pricing structure in order to maximize the numbers and simplify the production process. Still, in a world where HIDs are now standard on a 2013 Mustang V6.....

Speaking of E90s, I think the best auto model to drive, by far, was the 335d. I once drove the 335i and 335d back to back. The diesel packed the wallop of a torquey American V8. The 335i lacked low end grunt and felt fussy be comparison -- I never drove the manual version but I'm sure that it would be much better.

nkeen

The clutch is actually better with a distinct on/off point.

You need a definite zone of travel where it is engaged and a zone of travel where it is not engaged, but between those you want a zone of clean linear progression for smooth uptake.

Regarding the tires, I think it had Turanzas which distorted when parked overnight in the cold and then rumbled away in the morning. The TL seemed cobbled together by some design studio in California based on what focus groups told them constituted a driver's car. And it came close in many areas. I wish the BMW was half as comfortable. Great Honda V6 too.

nyccarguy

I drove a (F10) 535 & 550 back to back at a BMW Ultimate Drive event with my Dad. I was impressed with the 535's power delivery. It did a great job merging and I got it up to about 90. It felt great, like it could cruise at that speed for a week.

The 550 was a flat out monster. Easily one of the fastest cars I've ever driven. "Engage the hyper drive chewy." On the same stretch of highway (Garden State Pakway in NJ right near the NY border), I hit 120 before I backed off. It was awesome.

flightnurse

Sweeny did u at one time own a BUICK GN?

flightnurse

NYCarguy that is why I call the 2012 550i a M5 light... For a car that is 10K more then a top out 335i, the 550i is a bargain... Now drive with a 6 spd manual..

fedlawman

For those that have driven them, how is the throttle response of the new T-4 vs. the T-6?

I really like the 335i but one thing I don't like is the throttle/turbo response. Maybe I'm just OCD about throttle response, but I really prefer a direct link between my right foot and the throttle bodies. While the 335i is better than most turbos I've driven, it's still got that rubber band feeling.

flightnurse

Hey Fed the throttle response of the T-4 was fine, of course once the turbo is spooled up you are hard press to know it is a t-4, off the line there is slight turbo lag, but I'm sure the aftermarket companies will fix that. The T-6 is very hard press to know it is a turbo even off the line. But there are a couple of aftermarket companies that can make the t-6 a true screamer with very little money... Also to note, the t-4 cars has a switch that can program the DME to adjust the throttle response for sport to Econ to Comfort.

nkeen

The delay in the 328i T4 is brief at worst, but it is sometimes apparent when you get on it.

sweendogy

No before my time but a true American classic.

nyccarguy

Any update on your E30 M3?

nyccarguy

OK, an F30 in either 328i or 335i guise is out of my price range at close to $50K. But let's see if my calculations are correct, in 2015 my current 2010 TSX (purchased in August 2009) will have 100,000K on it and maybe I'll be itching for a replacement vehicle. These F30s will just becoming off lease...hmmm.

joshuah1

I am looking at the Infiniti G and the Acura TL. Either way I would get AWD. I like the G but that body style has been around for years and is due for major refresh in 2013. I don't want to get a car that looks "old" in one year. The TL is very aggressive and recently refreshed but not attractive (subjective) from all angles. The G is much faster 0-60 if you get automatic...basically the same with manual. There are many other factors to consider but performance and exterior are really important to me. Opinions?

sweendogy

I've made it know for years what I feel on these 2 rigs. If you want a better looking, better performer it's the G. More refinements, quiet it's the TL .
I think sales numbers and the car mags have made it clear the G is the true wInner.

flightnurse

It is only a winner if you do not put the 3 series in the mix. Infiniti has come close to beating the 3 series in comparison test but haven't done it yet. I'm sure in the next few months there will be a comparison test so only time will tell.

sweendogy

while you might be right its not what the poster asked. I think for the price of a stripped down 328 you can get a g37, as we mentioned before the 328 gets very pricy with options unless you have a "experimental" deal like you did. Im sure the 328 motor in your rig performs very well, the new turbo 4 even better so i think the trend will continue as infiniti plays second fiddle in this category on total package- BUT price is something to consider-- and i love saving money. The 335 while an absolute animal - now closing in on 60k, sorry thats a huge step in price from 42k-44k maxed out G.

flightnurse

Sweeny until the magazines and experts say other wise, the 3 series is better car then the TL and G. When you responded to the OP (original poster) you need to clarify what you were writing. BTW, how old are you again?

BTW BMW of Bayside is having an excellent sale on their loaner 2011 BMW, my cousin just picked up a 2011 335iXdrive with M package, Premium Package, and Nav for $37K. It has hail damage and is not CPO car, but with only 11K miles on it it has the remaining factory warranty. It drives great, BTW, long island needs to fix their street though, the pot holes here are horrible and I thought Calif was bad...

plekto

If you go back to the three vehicles that started this entire segment, you'll see a pattern.
- BMW 3 Series (Now also includes the 1 series)
- Mercedes C Class (C class still fits here)
- Volvo 200 series (S60 would be the modern version I guess)

Now, times and technology have changed, but the thing that these had in common were that they were smaller versions of the larger luxury sedans and still had a bit of sportiness in them. Over time, other manufacturers added competing products, but now it seems as if everything with some leather added is now part of this group.

The TL is basically a Honda Lucerne. It's a big and heavy boat with luxury touches added. See the Toyota Avalon for a similar vehicle. It simply doesn't belong in this class of vehicles. Go drive a Mercedes or BMW and see what I mean - there's a massive difference.

sweendogy

Again I agree the car experts do pick the 3 over the g - which is why again I said the G plays the second fiddle - When I responded to the OP- it was in direct response to his question, which was also in the title of your confrontational responses, so I don't need to clarify.

I've never been asked my age on here - I'm 35 Dk what that has to do with anything?

Will check out bayside BMW - M package xdrive 6speed 2010-11 on my wish list.
Long island a bit far from here but I would go to save a grand or 2

m6user

BMWs used to be the cars that all other sports sedans were measured up to. They now are totally overrated in comparison to other makes that have made great strides over the years. The magazines and so called "experts" think it is sacriledge to admit that BMW is not what is once was and that other makes are just as good or better. The magazine reviewers do nothing but repeat themselves and each other and then the people that put so much faith in them repeat their junk further. The BMW lemmings have drank the kool aid so much that they don't even look outside the BMW brand. It's almost like a cult religion.

Compared to the G the BMW costs more, isn't nearly as fast(unless you get the 335 for another $10k), in the X models gets about the same mpg as a car with 100 more HP, has a shorter warranty, leather is in upgrade, dash looks like something from the 90s, comes with 16" wheels standard, trunk space of an econocar and the list goes on. Oh yeah, better not keep one more than a standard lease period if you buy cause the repairs will come and they will be expensive.

dino001

Then don't buy it. It's a free country, you can say what you want and I can freely get ripped off. To each their own. No need for aggression or name calling - completely uncalled for. I bought one after very extensive investigation, what's out there and definitely will not blindly go again. I always check others.

I actually agree to some of your points regarding levels of equipment or some design cues (I also think the dash is ridiculously low grade and leather or fold-down seats should be standard), but ... trunk size? Really? What else? Back seat too small for you? Suspension too stiff? What an outrage, I need a premium fuel? Warranty? Wow, Infiniti gives you 10k miles more on b-t-b and one year more on powertrain... big deal. BMW gives you maintenance. Let's call it a wash.

I really don't undestand the need of validating your own preferences and choices by berating others. :sick:

sweendogy

down dino-- wow- i dont think m6 was calling you out directly-- name calling, didnt really see that.. what i did see was an opinion on the car-- I think he made some valid pts when he talked bout 10k difference in price among others -- trunk space i agree a stretch. - lets be honest the "free" maintenance thing is something all bmw owners use as a crutch..

"BMW claims to have calculated the average maintenance cost of owning other cars for the same amount of time, ranging from $385 for a Saab to $1,112 for a Jaguar. " heres is a link we all should look at if this is the dealmaker/breaker

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1088569

love the use of the words outrage, and berating others.. powerful

m6user

Please don't take things on here so personally. I just made a list off the top of my head and didn't think I needed to be totally comprehensvie to make a point. And that is what I was trying to make.....a point and it wasn't meant as an insult. You know there are a lot of people out there that buy BMWs based solely on perceived status and from what they are told by so called experts. I assume that those that frequent these forums regularly have a good understanding of what they are getting in a car.
Oh, btw, the G powertrain warranty is two years longer and more miles as well. Just trying to get the facts straight.

joshuah1

it helps if people answer the question asked. i asked for a comparison between the acura tl and the infiniti g37. i am not interested in the 328i so no need to promote it. i love performance but i also look at the value equation. BMWs are totally overpriced in my opinion, but if the market supports it so be it. I am into handling and 0-60 and if you go with a manual TL or G no 328 comes close. A 335 will but you're now looking at $55k for the same level of equipment. So anybody else who has driven these two vehicles (G or TL) I'd love to hear your comments. Surprised that nobody is sticking up for the TL SH-AWD...I've read their AWD system compares favoribly to the S4's (Audi is also overpriced). I would consider a c350 if they brought back the AWD but you have to go down to the slow C300 for AWD in the C class.