Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

roadburner

kyfdx said:

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

And you'll get that same old "What can I do to put ya in a car today, buddy?" song and dance...

roadburner

I could see myself picking up a RWD V6 Infiniti or a RWD Giulia, but those are the only sport sedans I could see luring me away from BMW.

ab348

Here's another video review of the Stinger, out of the UK. I don't know who the reviewer is, but I like his style.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/videos/kia-stinger-gts-takes-the-fight-to-bmw-audi/?ftag=CAD-04-10aba4f&bhid=25416315718523622077081880631938

kyfdx

roadburner said:

kyfdx said:

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

And you'll get that same old "What can I do to put ya in a car today, buddy?" song and dance...

You can get that from any dealer.. doesn't matter if it's luxury or not.

qbrozen

ab348 said:

Genesis is a luxury badge now? Hmmmm.

IMHO, they are moreso than Acura since at least Genesis has RWD cars. 

ab348

qbrozen said:

ab348 said:

Genesis is a luxury badge now? Hmmmm.

IMHO, they are moreso than Acura since at least Genesis has RWD cars. 

I wouldn't say RWD equates to luxury. See: Charger, Mustang, Camaro.

I think the word luxury is being misused anyway. Perhaps "premium" would be more appropriate.

benjaminh

Alex on Autos likes the new Volvo V60 luxury wagon. A good value imho starting at $38k. Although in a non-luxury wagon the VW Sportwagen is a great value starting at c.24k.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-zfVn7an2M

stickguy

now this is something I really like. Would replace both cars with something like this. Get the utility needed, plus the luxury desired.

benjaminh

My local Volvo dealer has what seems to be an amazing deal on one of their last 2018 model V60 wagons....

"2018 VOLVO
V60
Cross Country T5 AWD
Lease For
$399/MO.
$0 Down"

https://www.volvooflouisville.com/specials/new.htm

This wagon has an msrp of $47,545

https://www.volvooflouisville.com/new/Volvo/2018-Volvo-V60+Cross+Country-86ab76660a0e0a6b27ec24f774fd0fef.htm

$399 a month with 0 down is difficult to imagine to me for a vehicle with that msrp.

stickguy

I read the disclaimer. Looks like the only thing to consider is the owners loyalty being included, so for non-Volvo owners, make that $1,000 down. Plus tax, DMV, and dealer doc fees. So in NJ, another $1,700 or so, making that about $2,700 DAS. Or, about $475 doing a true sign and drive.

I like that one too. the colors work, and fully equipped. Nice.

dino001

2018 V60/S60 is nowhere near as nice as 2019.

stickguy

after watching the video previews, no they are not. But, if I was leasing something, would be fine with a 2018 for 3 years.

or, will just wait a year or so and start hunting the service loaners and leftover deals.

qbrozen

ab348 said:

ab348 said:

Genesis is a luxury badge now? Hmmmm.

IMHO, they are moreso than Acura since at least Genesis has RWD cars. 

I wouldn't say RWD equates to luxury. See: Charger, Mustang, Camaro. I think the word luxury is being misused anyway. Perhaps "premium" would be more appropriate.

RWD does not equate to luxury. But the leaders in the luxury class do employ RWD. Yes, maybe premium is a better term, but we know what we mean.

ab348

Audi would like to have a word. 

benjaminh

In this Motor Week comparison they liked the Audi A4 even better than the BMW....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEBlwNYWw8U

roadburner

I'd pick a Giulia Ti Sport over an A4 or F30 3er.

dino001

I think FWD does not preclude luxury, but is a detriment to sport. ES, or MKZ are entry lux cars, but not remorely sporty (which is OK for people who buy them). AWD is a bit of a tossup for sports, depends on the actual system. Audi and Acura seem to have it done well and those are sportier versions of their models, than their base, but others not necessarily. Many systems are about helping you in snow, not making your car go fast through corners.

benjaminh

Since I'm thinking about the possibility of keeping my 2018 TLX for a while, I came across this video of a guy crazy enough to keep his 2005 TSX that he bought new for more than 500k miles. Sometime after that though he had to get major work done on his transmission....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWkbJp6MK7Q&t=824s

roadburner

dino001 said:

I think FWD does not preclude luxury, but is a detriment to sport. ES, or MKZ are entry lux cars, but not remorely sporty (which is OK for people who buy them). AWD is a bit of a tossup for sports, depends on the actual system. Audi and Acura seem to have it done well and those are sportier versions of their models, than their base, but others not necessarily. Many systems are about helping you in snow, not making your car go fast through corners.

Once you get much over 500 hp I can see where AWD would be beneficial; aside from that I only want AWD in an SUV.

qbrozen

Pretty confident the only mainstream Audis winning comparisons and getting praise are AWD.

Besides, I did say leaders. In all of 2017, BMW and Lexus each sold about 33% more cars than Audi; Benz was 50% more. Audi did beat out Acura, the other FWD-based premium car, by 50%.

dino001

roadburner said:

dino001 said:

I think FWD does not preclude luxury, but is a detriment to sport. ES, or MKZ are entry lux cars, but not remorely sporty (which is OK for people who buy them). AWD is a bit of a tossup for sports, depends on the actual system. Audi and Acura seem to have it done well and those are sportier versions of their models, than their base, but others not necessarily. Many systems are about helping you in snow, not making your car go fast through corners.

Once you get much over 500 hp I can see where AWD would be beneficial; aside from that I only want AWD in an SUV.

I have owned WRX and STI. Those were AWD made right. One big difference is full time, with 50/50 splits, unlike many others that start with FWD and push drive only when sensors say so.

stickguy

High powered FWD cars need AWD more than high powered RWD cars do.

dino001

qbrozen said:

Pretty confident the only mainstream Audis winning comparisons and getting praise are AWD.

Besides, I did say leaders. In all of 2017, BMW and Lexus each sold about 33% more cars than Audi; Benz was 50% more. Audi did beat out Acura, the other FWD-based premium car, by 50%.

Lexus ES, or IS? I think the former is outselling the latter.

qbrozen

Yes, more ES than IS and GS. And RX more than double ES sales. Interestingly, in comparison, 3/4-series outsells the X3 and X1 combined.

benjaminh

2019 seems like a significant year for entry level luxury cars. There's an all-new Mercedes A-Class that's getting rave reviews that will probably start at about $34k, an all-new BMW 3-series due in a few months that'll start at about 41k, an all-new Volvo S60 that starts at 37k, and Acura has an improved and restyled ILX that got a big price cut and now starts at 27k.

Carryover ELL cars include the Audi A3 starting at about 34k, the A4 that starts at about 40k, the Acura TLX that starts at 34, the Cadillac ATS in its last year that starts at about the same price, the best-selling Lexus IS a and ES that go for 40 something, plus entries from Lincoln, Infiniti, etc.

stickguy

I think the Lexus ES is new now also.

benjaminh

Or, for less money than any of those new ones you could get this 2012 BMW 750Li V8 with x-drive and seemingly every option available for that year. Original msrp might have been maybe 80k or so? Not sure. But now you can have this huge and powerful luxury car for just $23k....

https://www.englewoodcliffscadillac.com/VehicleDetails/used-2012-BMW-750Li_xDrive-Sedan-Englewood_Cliffs-NJ/3281914043

ab348

You left out the new Cadillac XT4. I saw pics of one in the wild, it looks very appealing.

benjaminh

XT4 isn't a sedan, but it does look good. Looks like the ATS may have been cut already, because I can't seem to find it on the Cadillac site. But here's the XT4 that starts at 35k or so....

https://www.cadillac.com/crossovers-suvs/xt4-crossover

benjaminh

If you're not too worried about resale there's an advantage to getting an outgoing model in its last year or so. The ATS is an impressive luxury car that looks really good, and my local Cadillac dealer seemed to be almost giving away their last one. The last of the 2018 Volvo S60s and V60s also are potentially very good deals.

ab348

They are only making the coupe version for 2019.

I got confused when reading your list, forgetting that the TLX wasn't a SUV/CUV. Nomenclature always confuses me.

qbrozen

Oh, that is interesting. Did they really sell enough ATS coupes to justify keeping that as the only 2019 choice? Huh

dino001

benjaminh said:

If you're not too worried about resale there's an advantage to getting an outgoing model in its last year or so. The ATS is an impressive luxury car that looks really good, and my local Cadillac dealer seemed to be almost giving away their last one. The last of the 2018 Volvo S60s and V60s also are potentially very good deals.

If discount is big enough and you keep it long enough, the depreciation becomes a non-issue four-five years down the road, as your starting point is the lower transaction price, not the sticker. If it’s a good lease, then the manufacturer takes the bath, not the driver.

Another good advantage of buying an outgoing model is usually they work out most of the obvious flaws and kinks by then, so reliability should be at least OK. Also, the support from independent shops should be alright, as the model is well known to the technicians. New models, on the other hand, have always risk of “teething” issues, sometimes can be quite annoying and even manufacturers can fall behind on part availability, if particular failures turn to be more widespread than anticipated.

dino001

So is ATS sedan completely gone, or is it a production transition to a new model?

benjaminh

As stickguy mentioned the 2019 Lexus ES is also all-new. It starts at about 41k. The ES has a lot of luxury, power, refinement, and reliability for the price. Like an Acura, it's one of those luxury cars that you can imagine owning for ten years or more. In fact, a friend of mine has one that's about a dozen years old and it still looks good and runs really well. More luxury than sport, but very nice.

https://www.lexus.com/models/ES

dino001

I just looked up Cadillac’s concept vehicles on the website. I remember in the past how quickly nice concepts went into underwhelming humdrum execution once they reached production stage, it was just pathetic. One can hope they can do better this time, as those conceots look really opulent and would give Bentley or RR run for the money. It’s almost like Cadillac needs another brand to fit those into their lineup, do they have rights for Duesenberg?

qbrozen

dino001 said:

So is ATS sedan completely gone, or is it a production transition to a new model?

Not even sure it will be a new model, but it will be a different name, following their new letters/numbers thing. So possibly CT4

Mr_Shiftright

roadburner said:

kyfdx said:

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

And you'll get that same old "What can I do to put ya in a car today, buddy?" song and dance...

It might work if they were presented in different showrooms on the same property, and if sales personnel were trained differently in approaching the higher end customer.

dino001

Mr_Shiftright said:

roadburner said:

kyfdx said:

When they start building dealerships that aren't attached, or on the same property as the Hyundai dealership, they might be able to make it work. (like Acura, Lexus, Infiniti, etc).

Until then, they'll just be seen as "nicer" Hyundais. Whether that's deserved, or not.

And you'll get that same old "What can I do to put ya in a car today, buddy?" song and dance...

It might work if they were presented in different showrooms on the same property, and if sales personnel were trained differently in approaching the higher end customer.

It would be a great coup if a multibrand dealer housed them adjacent to their German or Japanese lux brand, rather than Hyundai’s. But insisting on (and financing) separating buildings of H and G is a bare minimum they have to do.

ab348

dino001 said:

So is ATS sedan completely gone, or is it a production transition to a new model?

They will be supposedly announcing a new sedan soon.

sda

ATS is a great car. The back seat area is tight, which would make it difficult for my elderly mom to get in and out, so kind of rules it out, unless I find one that is just too hard to let go.

ab348

sda said:

ATS is a great car. The back seat area is tight, which would make it difficult for my elderly mom to get in and out, so kind of rules it out, unless I find one that is just too hard to let go.

Can confirm, it is a wonderful car to drive. The rear seat is for kids mostly unless front seat passengers are short and adjust their thrones forward. Headroom is OK though.

benjaminh

sda said:

ATS is a great car. The back seat area is tight, which would make it difficult for my elderly mom to get in and out, so kind of rules it out, unless I find one that is just too hard to let go.

The TLX has more back seat room than an ATS, but less than an Accord.

As you'll recall, I traded in a 2016 Accord EX for my 2018 TLX. On the off chance it might useful here are a lot of things that are better about the TLX compared with an Accord EX, as well as a couple of things that aren't as good.

1. The TLX has an amazing sound system compared to an Accord EX
2. The TLX has a much quieter ride over rough pavement
3. Better handling and suspension—both more sporty and more comfortable
4. Great 4-wheel steering system, which is exclusive in this class
5. AcuraWatch safety systems + adaptive cruise control
6. Better and more comfortable seats
7. Nicer interior materials, switches, and controls
8. Lights in places like under the center console, in the glovebox, etc.
9. Fully finished trunk with special storage areas
10. CarPlay/Android Auto
11. 8-speed dual clutch transmission with torque converter and paddle shifters. Really nice transmission.
12. More refined and more powerful engine
13. Integrated dynamic drive mode selector—econ, normal, sport, sport+
14. Stronger brakes, bigger brake pads, etc.
15. full led headlights provide better and more even illumination, save power, and have longer life
16. All sorts of other details not found on an Accord EX of your year, including capless fuel filler, acoustic glass, reverse tilt down side mirrors, built in compass, longer warranty, etc., etc.

A couple of things that aren't as good include a somewhat smaller back seat area (although still good enough for all but adults over 6' imho), and the fact that the TLX needs premium fuel to make the extra 20 horsepower it has compared to an Accord of the last generation.

stickguy

did you test drive a current generation Accord before getting the TLX? Just wondering how your list would change substituting a 2018 Accord. I know some of your items (Honda sensing, CapPlay) would be on that.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

did you test drive a current generation Accord before getting the TLX? Just wondering how your list would change substituting a 2018 Accord. I know some of your items (Honda sensing, CapPlay) would be on that.

Yes, I did test the new Accord. Tougher call there. The new Accord is pretty impressive, but....

Material quality in the TLX is a lot better than even in this generation of Accord. Here's one example that stood out for me. The dial on the steering wheel of the new Accord is clearly copied from the Acura, but it's cheap feeling, and the movement isn't particularly refined. On the Acura this control is really great in term of feel and ease of use. They look almost the same, but big difference in feel and operation. You can find differences like that in a dozen or more things just on the inside.

There's more room in the back seat and in the trunk of the Accord, but in most other ways the TLX is better and nicer.

Finally, with the lease incentives on the TLX, you can probably lease the Acura for less than a comparable Honda Accord.

stickguy

plus it is better looking.

benjaminh

Yeah. I slowly warmed up somewhat to the unusual looks of the Accord, but it still seems a bit strange from every angle—front, side, and back. The Acura TLX, in contrast, is just a nice looking vehicle all around. There's also a lot of variety with the TLX. My lunar silver 4-cylinder is an almost modest looking luxury car, with hidden dual exhaust and somewhat understated details. But for people who own a TLX with the V-6 there are big exhaust finishers and other details that make the car pop. For me the more restrained look works just fine, perhaps because I'm in my 50s and a college prof?

benjaminh

Discount luxury wagon. How about this one-owner 2007 Audi A4 Avant Quattro for $5500. Clean Carfax. 120k miles. "2007 Audi A4 2.0T Wagon..A BEAUTIFUL 1-OWNER SARASOTA AUDI..CLEAN CARFAX..FLORIDA CAR..LEATHER POWER SEATS.. MOONROOF..AUTOMATIC..SMOKE FREE CAR..GARAGE KEPT"

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/745810411/overview/

qbrozen

Save yourself $2k-$2500  and get a Passat wagon.

benjaminh

2009 BMW 535i xdrive 6-speed manual. Clean carfax. 55k miles. 15k....

"2009 BMW 535XI - CERTIFIED CLEAN CARFAX REPORT! 6 SPEED MANUAL TRANSMISSION! TWIN TURBO! ALL WHEEL DRIVE! 22 SERVICE HISTORY RECORDS! LOADED WITH OPTIONS! ONLY 55K MILES! KEY FEATURES INCLUDE: NAVIGATION - FRONT AND REAR PARKING SENSORS - PUSH START IGNITION - FRONT AND REAR HEATED LEATHER SEATS - POWER SEATS WITH FULL LUMBAR CONTROLS - HEATED STEERING WHEEL - POWER ADJUSTABLE STEERING WHEEL - SUNROOF - CARBON FIBER INTERIOR TRIM - HEATED UP DISPLAY -"

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/752047683/overview/