Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

jamesspot

Sign up on the BMW web site or call the phone number and see for yourself. I drove the E90 330i, G35, and A4 3.2 quattro on a closed course in Atlanta last Friday. I had driven a similar Lexus event a year ago. Told my professional race car driver instructor to tell me to keep it down if I was too aggressive. He never said boo - but I figured I was braking at the proper time when his foot hit the passenger floor board at the same time mine went for the brake.

Observations (all cars were automatics):

A4 - Heavy and understeering. Must be hammered with tires squealing, trusting in the AWD to drag you out of corners.

G35 - A "beast". Good power and unforgiving handling. Transmission drops back to idle when you come off the gas, leading to delays in getting the power back down.

New 330i - An amazingly balanced sport sedan. A smoother ride and more room than my '04. Active steering on an autocross course was telepathic. Brakes, engine, step transmission in sports mode, and suspension all in sync.

Did a hot lap with the pro at the wheel - shifted the BMW's steptronic transmission manually and left it in second and followed the line - woohoo!

Feed back on MY driving - needed to use the FULL width of the course side to side for the most speed through the cones. I also tended to either go full throttle or braking vice a graduated release of the throttle / application of the brakes as the steering input comes in and then the reverse as it comes out.

A great experience to drive all three cars all out at a slow speed (50ish) autocross limit on a 1 mile closed course.

Anyone else done this?

joeshan

Did BMW X3 a couple of years ago at Belmont NY. There were no comparo vehicles, only X3's on the autocross. Also, locked in 2nd, and a real hoot. (Plus super hot French-Canadien instructor babe!)Other BMW's were available for the street loop.
Did MB M-Class last Sunday at same locale-not as perf oriented as BMW, but I flogged C-Class (very nimble, but not much power)
Will sign up for BMW at Shea Stadium in Sept.-I hope I can flog a G35 and then a 330i. Sounds like a blast!

designman

Can’t yet compare pre-iDrive BMW reliability with the current generation. For one thing, those with the Japanese-car mentality need their Consumer Reports red dots, they avoid German cars like the plague. There are a lot of black dots showing up next to BMWs these days. BMW free maintenance notwithstanding, it is an inconvenience to bring the car in for multiple software glitches and such. In addition, I am not convinced that the service bays have a handle on these problems yet. You hear plenty of stories around here about BMW service departments not having a clue what gives with current electronics. A colleague of mine has a 7. She loves the car but can’t wait to turn it in off lease because of the electronic issues.

So yeah, it’s nice to have it made in the shade with those luscious older bimmers. But in the words of financial disclosures, past performance does not guarantee the future. The reason I bought my previous-generation BMW is yesterday’s news. Since BMW was so hellbent on change, I too am changing my criteria for future purchases.

blueguydotcom

So you think RWD performs better then FWD?
FWD cars regularly outperform RWD. And we're talking prof racing.

Yeah you see lots of Indy/Cart racing with FWD too, right?

More than that, what is more fun? That's the key to me. I head out of a corner I love to stomp it and just explode - take that sucker to redline at WOT. Do that in a FWD car and where do you end up?

Not going straight...

draknad

We're in Entry level performance sedans.
That's exactly what fits in the SCCA touring car division.
And if you noticed in the SCCA link
BMW 325i's were 7,9,10. Bottom bottom half of top 10 positions.

The point is, FWD (Acura TSX's,Mazda 6) outrace/outperform RWD (BMW 325i) regularly.
Please. You're Almost ignorant.

kyfdx

..and I'll race you for pink slips!!!

In my Honda CR-V...

Then you'll find out that equipment isn't the most important thing in winning races....

blueguydotcom

The point is, FWD (Acura TSX's,Mazda 6) outrace/outperform RWD (BMW 325i) regularly.
Please. You're Almost ignorant.

A. Avoid ad hominem attacks. It's uncool.

B. the 325i? I'm not following, why the hell would i look at a 325i? I hated that car in 03 when I was looking and I still can't find a way to justify buying an e90 version. The 50 HP gulf between my 330i ZHP and a 325i was way too much to overlook. The e46 325i is not a car I'd want to own.

Additionally, I'd take the following over an e46 325i in the order I'd pick em: A3 2.0 DSG, TSX 6 mt, Legacy GT 2.5 5 mt, G35 6 mt, A4 2.0 6 mt.

blueguydotcom

http://www.verdictoncars.com/jsp/vocmain.jsp?lnk=901&id=79&description=Lexus%20IS%20350

designman

The car looks cool. My only nitpick is I would like to see a lower beltline. Its styling has it all over E90 inside and out IMO. Can't wait to drive it.

blueguydotcom

Really? I'm on the other side. The interior looks horrible - way too buicky/lexus like for my taste. I like austere, cold interiors and I'm drawn to VW/Audi/BMW for that reason - the harder the angles the better. As for the outside, the e90 is plain to ugly, the IS350 is just plain. I'll take a hint of ugly - makes things more interesting. It's kinda like a Lilly Taylor v. Gwyneth Paltrow thing. Paltrow's not offensive; she just doesn't have any edge at all.

kyfdx

We've officially gone over the edge....

designman

Well, I like austere interiors too, in the ilk of the old Porsches and Bimmers. That’s what I like about the X3. However, we’re not going to get that in a Lexus. The interiors of the new 3, 5 and 6 just look cheap IMO, and they don’t have that function-over-form look as they did in the past. I’ll take that buttoned-up plush IS interior. Would like to see it in the raw to pass final judgment. I hope it doesn’t give me a flat top like the GS does. I mean, when your head hits the roof it automatically eliminates it from contention. I remember that happening with the RX7.

draknad

I guess to repeat for blind eyes
FWD vs RWD,
325 is RWD
TSX is FWD which outperformed many RWD's (BMW 325)
which is the point of post #3736
just to repeat: FWD outperform RWD cars.

But the funny thing is, you admit you would not think about gettting BMW 325i.
Which is a BMW that many in here are considering vs G35's or others.
Since, to repeat (#3608), 330 cost too much to be considered.

Nother funny thing, you should know is: a 325 in racing form,
does not have the same engine or HP as the one you'd get from the in factory.

I'm not sure why you can't seem to follow.
Don't hate. we're all lovers not haters. haha

I hated that car i

frisconick

those with the Japanese-car mentality need their Consumer Reports red dots, they avoid German cars like the plague. There are a lot of black dots showing up next to BMWs these days. LOL that's me.

However let's be fair, the 3 series got a thumbs up this year.

kasperghost

"FWD outperform RWD cars."

In this instance you may be correct- I don't know enough about the racing situation to say otherwise. Couple of things that could be factors:
Acura et all, needs street creds that BMW already has and doesn't feel the need to through the money into this series- If you notice, many of the BMW's listed in the race series are no longer manufactured...

Please cite proof: salaries, win, loss, place on different platforms of the drivers would be a start.

What a way to build sales, "...beat BMW in such and such situation."

Name a NON-homogolation series where the builder had a choice of RWD vs. FWD platform and purpose built a FWD

Name a make and model of FWD car that is considered a sports car classic (there are many Japanese RWD classics, Datsun B2000 & Z cars to name a few) Cite championship results.

Name a major race that has been won by a FWD car (Non-homogolation)

Please cite the physics behind the reasons that a FWD car is better than a RWD car. Assume we have a reasonable understanding of mass, acceleration, yaw, etc.

In general, the three series does quite respectable in racing. Please show us a general trend in the giant world of racing that FWD kicks RWD or BMW is getting whipped by FWD machines.

In closing- I am not contradicting your statement that BMW is getting its tail whipped in the series you cite. I am saying in general, that you will have a great difficulty proving FWD is better that RWD in high performance situations.

kasperghost

We are thoughtful and considerate in this community. Professional ettiquitte is a must and brings out the best in all involved. I appreciate the many profesional and constructive responses most of you post.

kdshapiro

You are right within one set of parameters, but not within another. I fully admit FWD will trump RWD with under 200 hp, for it is more efficient. But not necessarily more balanced. Subaru's eat FWD cars for lunch at rallys. Look at the Mini-Cooper, of course it is a niche vehicle with little use for a family of 4, but it drives great.

You can take an E90 and drop a V8 in it, like the rumored new M3 and then it's a different story. You will still have a balanced sport sedan that will get to 60. In what 5 or less seconds and do 179 or so without even breathing hard. How about dropping a V8 in a TSX and then running it on a racetrack? Think it will be balanced, or it will be able to even keep up with an M3? Now I'm just using that as an example.

So yes in certain situations FWD may be preferable, in certain limited types of races/rallyes/event it may even do very well against RWD vehicles with limited torque and hp.

geekay

Try autooninfo.org, The pages are updated for MY 2004, it is not sponsored by any manufacturer like Lexus/Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Infinit/Acura but looks like it is. Also read the links for sales etc. Happy reading. Regards Geekay

shipo

You can't be serious. That site is about as useful for determining the reliablilty of late model cars as the basket of green tee leaves that I just accidentally spilled all over my kitchen floor. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

frisconick

Consumer Reports is the most objective analysis of cars.

shipo

"Consumer Reports is the most objective analysis of cars."

Funny, even when they agree with my own "thumbs up or thumbs down" assessment regarding a specific car, I still usually disagree with their reasoning as to why they picked it over other similar cars. I guess I'm weird that way. :-/

Best Regards,
Shipo

blueguydotcom

actually CR is not objective. It still depends on people returning the filled-in surveys. I believe that a larger number of respondents will be people with a bone to pick. Someone who is satisfied with his car has less reason to respond.

laurasdada

So, following that logic I guess more European (e.g. Mercedes) car owners have bones to pick than Asian car owners (e.g. Acura/Honda)?

blueguydotcom

Perhaps. I used to swear by CR. Now I'm not so sure I believe any of it. I'd rather roll the dice and follow my heart than follow, cool, empirical numbers. the sound money or logical side says buy a used camcord. I can't live that way. I'm already bored to death - can't imagine fretting over the possibility my car might break down and thus end up buying a car that doesn't make me love it or hate it passionately.

blueguydotcom

I guess to repeat for blind eyes
FWD vs RWD,
325 is RWD
TSX is FWD which outperformed many RWD's (BMW 325)
which is the point of post #3736
just to repeat: FWD outperform RWD cars.

To repeat for you (from my original post regarding your gleeful writing about the FWD race cars):

Yeah you see lots of Indy/Cart racing with FWD too, right?

More than that, what is more fun? That's the key to me.

Others have already hit you over the head so it's not worth it. You cited one race series and acted like it's gospel. Nobody here believes you believe all race cars should be FWD...

shipo

Over the years I've become so jaded regarding the cars that CR has recommended that I'd always prided myself on NOT ever owning a car that made their "thumbs up" list. Then what do you suppose happened? The folks over there at CR took a silly pill and waxed enthusiastic all over the E39 530i. Wouldn't you know it; I had just placed an order for that very car. I almost cancelled my order... almost. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

cheerioboy26

Of course, if you look at the 2004 standings, BMW had the top 2, 3 of the top 4, and 7 0f the top 11.

http://www.world-challenge.com/2004/tc-standings.html

I know nothing about this series so I have no idea how much the particular drivers' abilities play into their results.

jrock65

Based on repeated reliability ratings and surveys by different sources (CR, JD Power, etc.), which consistently put Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura over BMW, MB, and Audi, I'll take my chances with an out of warranty Japanese car.

In determining my reliability chances with a car, I wouldn't put much stock in the VERY limited sample of whether this friend or that friend had trouble with his Japanese/German car.

kdshapiro

I agree with the choice of your word: "chances". That's what it is. You play the percentages. I've had superb German sedans and PITA Japanese sedans. I've been a long time reader of CR, yet I didn't submit any information about the PITA Japanese sedans or reliable German sedans.

They are biased in an objective way that is difficult to measure. I won't take any chances with used sedans period as I know people that have been burnt with supposedly reliable makes.

If I were to buy a used sedan I would take my chances with a be CPO.

draknad

don't think this is neccessary to repeat,
but we are in entry level perf seden forum: --> BMW 325 330 (G35, CTS TSX)
which race in that series. We are talking about entry level perf sedens
FWD vs RWD I refer to entry level perf sedens, entry level perf sedens, entry level perf sedens
do the 330 or 325 fit in any other catagory?

indy car, what on earth/forum are you talking about?
don't think many will drive indy, so it's not valuable information. get your details straight.

BTW, will not respond to fwd vs rwd ne more, not worth the time.

kasperghost

The 2004 race standings seem to fit this category...

kasperghost

When I looked into buying one of these cars- I wondered if they were junk and searched high and low. It is hard to find hard data from several sources that a car is reliable. When you do find data, it is usually glossed over. CR has the most detailed explanation but counts on volunteer replies. You almost have to trust the brand you are buying before you take a dive. The one that really gets me is in car mags, they never say last year's model had serious reliability issues and this is how xyz motors fixed them- they only write about the driving experience. Who cares if it is on of the 10 best if it only works downhill in a tailwind? Who cares about JD Powers 90 day reliability- what about 1 year+?

Jason

blueguydotcom

Kasper,

I agree about mags/edmunds taking a seriously soft approach to reviewing cars. They're essentially doing lightweight reviews and rarely take hardcore swipes at obviously deficient packages. The reaction to the LA Times GM article reveals why...manufacturers expect a kid gloves approach to reviewing new cars.

BTW, always amused me how the old awd turbo eclipse was on the 10 best lists in the 80s/90s.

armand

Very well stated comment! CR is terrific but you have to understand their standards and methods. Their reliability data is based on (if I remeber correctly) about 800,000 replies and that should bury some nuts that answer based on emotions rather than real experience. Their ratings are based primarily on how normal people drive cars - not on how a few drivers push them to their limits. But if you read the material they provide you can get info on how cars perform at their limits. I think the BMW 330i is a better car pushed to its limits than the Acura TL but the Acura TL is a better car for the normal driver. (I own a TL and an 325Xit and have driven a 330i.)

dhanley

SCCA point standings, as has been pointed out on this topic before, reflect the cars being modified and weighted down to make them "competitive."

http://www.world-challenge.com/seriesfacts.html ( look at vehicles )

Look down to spot 14, there's a subaru WRX. If you think the WRX can't beat both a TSX and a 325i around the track in a true test of speed, you need to drive one. The WRX can keep up with vette on the right track.

dave

qbrozen

That's kind of the point of the original poster, though. Once you take out the power and weight advantages of any one car, it now comes down to driver and, again, the reason it was brought up, the other engineering aspects of the car, namely drive wheels.

draknad

final point on fwdrwd.
There are 2 points:
1:
A car does not perform better because it is RWD.

2.
not many people believe fwd outperform rwd and
even less people can actually explain or experience the skills
and techniques required to drive fast and win a race vs RWD (or whatever).
FWD can outperform RWD regularly, which to many is a myth.

I believe the reason is,
there aren't many people who race FWD cars vs RWD ( in these forums)
and i think there are even less people who race professionally and win (in these forums) to be able to explain how and why.
It takes experience/skills in both rwd and fwd to be able to explain the difference, how and why.

dhanley

"That's kind of the point of the original poster, though. "

No, he said that FWD and RWD don't matter for performance, which is incorrect, and he used a series in which FWD was competitive to "prove" it. That proves nothing, since the cars have been modified to be competitive irrespective of their natural advantages and disadvantages.

It's like me claiming that i'm as good as a golfer as tiger woods because i might beat him when you factor our handicaps in.

dave

blueguydotcom

Reminds me of Harrison Bergeron - handicap the overachievers and then they're "equal" to the underachievers.

thematrixhasu

first of all if you are going to compare them i would throw the c out and throw in the srt8 than all or your concerns with composure and cornering as well and you still at the same price

dhanley

Harrison Bergeron meant a lot to me when i was in a normal grade school.

dhanley

The SRT8 isn't entry luxury, though.

And, i think if you chucked a car off the list due to handling, a c230 sport wouldn't be the first to go.

dave

qbrozen

I don't think we are seeing this the same way. Any good scientific experiment tries to eliminate all other variables aside from what you are trying to compare. I may be wrong, but I'm guessing the cars were modified to have, basically, similar power/weight ratios, no? If you were able to tell me that they had to give the FWD more power and less weight than the RWD car, well then you'd have an argument. But if they weigh the same, have the same power output, same transmissions, same suspension, etc, etc, and the ONLY difference between the cars is how it puts the power to the ground, then that is the only thing left that could make a difference between them on the track.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it really is a 300 hp, 2800 lb. TSX vs. a 250 hp, 3200 lb. 325. In which case, no, its not a good or fair comparison to use at all.

draknad

Thanks qbrozen...
you know, it seems post 3784 was argueing the definition of FWD.
the power is still being put the ground with front tires (FWD) or read tires (RWD)
or it was debating the class rules..
come on...even with evidence, facts, results, there seems to be excuses.
now what if this was reversed.
say I posted RWD better then FWD??
think I could justify..."but the rules were evened out towards RWD"???
The purpose of racing organizations is to balance the competition. That does not mean convert FWD to RWD, and RWD to garbage.

You must think you fully understand and are basically saying the SCCA is unfair,
because it is "impossible" for a FWD to drive faster then a RWD.
and if FWD did win, so what, the rules were unfair. haha
I'll sum it up. It is impossible for FWD to beat RWD.
And if it did (somehow) it is because rules are different and RWD were so unfairly comprimised.

See how these replies are sooo clouded, so blinded by rebutle.

The point is, you cannot explain how to drive a FWD fast, so the rules must have been unfair. Or the car basically wasn't a FWD car anymore. The rules transformed the FWD car into AWD, and made the RWD into a bicycle (1WD).

talking to walls with no holes...I need some teamates

qbrozen's post explained this much better...

jesse777

does any one know , roughly the price of the insurance on a a TL , mi in California
late twenty's, 1 speeding ticket, dui 1
can you help ?1

pat

I thought you were done talking about FWD vs RWD a few posts back! :P

Let me observe for everyone's benefit that this particular debate (sometimes including AWD, of course) almost always arises in any comparo that includes differently powered vehicles. And every time it does, no proponent of one type or another ever convinces anyone to change an opinion.

It's been an interesting examination of the issues, but it's time to move on. Let's agree to disagree on this particular facet of the differences in these vehicles and find some other issue to beat to death.

:shades:

It really is time to move on ...

laurasdada

Good luck, Jesse. If CA rates are anything like MA, with one speeding ticket and a DUI (MR. OBVIOUS SAYS, "DON'T EVER DRIVE UI AGAIN!!! AND I DON'T MEAN DON'T GET CAUGHT! DO NOT DRIVE!!! YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY INJURE OR KILL SOMEONE LIKE MY SON, DAUGHTER, WIFE OR ME!!!) you will not be happy with insurance premiums, regardless of the make of car.

Try online quotes or ask your present insurer for a quote. And yes, unfortunately, I knew a beautiful young woman who drove drunk and killed a family of four in a head-on after crossing over to the wrong side of the road. As often seems the case, she was physically ok but psychologically and legally her life too changed for the (very much) worse at a young age.

pat

A better place to pursue this is in our What do you pay for insurance? discussion. Check it out ...

frisconick

Obviously you have never owned a 77 Breakdown, I mean Mustang. Always broke down at exactly the wrong time. In middle of the Arizona in 115 degree heat. On big date etc. I swear, by the time i got rid of the car, I replaced the entire engine piece by piece.

frisconick

I think I repleyed to the wrong person blueguy