Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

17374767879435

Comments

  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Like I said excuse my iignorence, plus it's a car I would never consider buying.
  • laydilaydi Member Posts: 9
    Thank you so much for everyone's responses. I really appreciated the advice. I'm obtaining quotes for new vehicles (all around $33K) and I've seen the following used listings (I plan to negotiate the prices):

    1. '05 Silver/Gray 6,155 $31,888
    2. '05 Anthracite/Black 4,177 $33,995 (I like this combo the best but NOT the price)

    Was there a signifant change between '04 and '05? I tried looking on the Acura website for this info but wasn't successful in finding it.

    Thanks again, everyone.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    no there wasn't. If yu look up the '05 TL review at edmunds.com, it'll tell you what changed.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Those are not very good pricing....as that is what I would expect from a brand new and not used car.

    BTW...you did ask a question on the 'help me choose' forum. You might want to check that one out if you have not yet...as a number of us have responded.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Based upon your requirements...the 2005 TL is my recommendation (and which I own).

    Why I would recommend? If you enjoy the luxury of a Lexus, then the TL has the mix for you. The interior is definitely superior to the G35...and will remind you of the Lexus GS series. It even rivals my 2004 BMW 7 series.

    Features....it has all the items you have indicated. Bluetooth...controls, etc. If you order them through the G35...you are looking to add $7k above the TL through a package.

    Stereo...6 CD indash changer...with 8 speakers with universally accepted superior performance. Controlled with buttons on the steering wheel.

    Dual climate zones. Power seats. All the features you indicated are included in the model without any premium packages to buy.

    Performance...well it has 270 hp and the latest Car and Driver magazine shows that it can easily keep up with the BMW 3 series. Past reviews from others show a very competitive performance to others in its class.

    As for pricing...you can get a non-navigation TL for about $30.5k...nav for about $32k. G35...$37k+ with horrible 16MPG in mixed driving. Get a similarily equiped BMW 3 series...pay $48k. Lexus GS...pay $50k+.

    If you really want something different...look at the TL in Dark Green exterior with the Parchment or Camel interior...which will have wood trims included at no cost. That is sharp and similar to the Lexus interior.

    So yes...you can have the world! And you will never pine to drive your Lex again
  • laydilaydi Member Posts: 9
    Duly noted and tahnks again for the heads up on the pricing. ;)
  • quasiactuaryquasiactuary Member Posts: 50
    Where on earth do you get $37k+ for a G35? Invoice on a G35 without navigation (to be apples-to-apples with your TL price) is $29k ....add the premium package and you're up to $32k. Invoice on a stripped TL is $30.2k. Your pricing information is pretty biased and not true at all.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    And with incentives right now on the 05s, a G35 is a good 2k lower than sticker WITHOUT negotiating.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Allow me to support the $37k+ pricing for a G35...as I have been challenged by another to substantiate..

    A base G35 6mt coupe is $33,350. Add in the premium package ($2450), Navigation ($2000), XM radio ($400 a must if you are going to compare to the TL), splash guards ($210), plus destination ($610). Total MSRP = $39,020.

    Quotes I received a month ago were at $37k+. Perhaps I could have negotiated pricing further down...but I determined the TL was for me.

    To substantiate my claims...go to the "G35 prices paid and buying experiences". Review recent posts #2625 and #2627. Pricing of $37,030 and $37,700 respectively.

    Where you got $29k for a non-navigation G35 I do not know..as the base msrp is already $33k without any premium package. A stripped down version with nothing...no sunroof...nothing....when the original poster was one that required amenities and in order to compare to the TL.

    Am I biased and not true? I hope to be correct in my assessment. Let me know if I am incorrect in my pricing calculations and whether the pricing posted above are incorrect.
  • laydilaydi Member Posts: 9
    Re: the 29K for non-Navi. Here's a quote from a dealer's email that I received today:

    Invoice on a TL with Navi is $32,555 and TL without Navi is $30,734. I could save you a little more money, but cannot do an invoice deal. The fact that the 2006's will be out in a couple of months doesn't really help us,because most dealers in the area including ourselves will be out of 2005's before they start coming in.

    And just FYI- another dealer that did not have my color combo said this...
    No but the market is soft so you should be able to get the car and a
    low price just about anywhere.


    Though he did not quantify "low price".
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    tl with 6-speed, nav, and summer tires: 35,500.

    It's not honest to compare "shopped" price to sticker price.

    Carsdirect says 34,970 in my area for a tl with nav.

    g35 with nav,premium,xenon: $35,660.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    The pricing I provided is 'paid' price to 'paid' price. Not "shopped" price to sticker price as you suggested.

    As I indicated...go look at the 'prices paid' at both boards and you will see (I even provided specific post numbers for the GS showing prices paid by others at $37k ).

    As for the TL pricing (which includes destination costs)...you just have to head over to the TL prices paid board to validate. Even if you don't head over...look at the quote the original poster 'laydi' just received (I believe an initial $32.2k for nav and $30.7 for non-nav) and posted in a message #3903 above.

    Yours is apples and oranges as Carsdirect is not what is the going rate and not certain if it even includes destination charges....as once again...look at what people have been paying on the boards here.

    I am not making it up...just look at the prices paid on the boards. Re-read my message #3902 and you will see.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I would still recomend the TL for laydi because it seems that she prefers features rather than performance

    The TL is fine performing machine, and is actually faster than the G35 sedan. So if laydi wants features, lux and performance, the TL is the car.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Still think I am misleading? My apologies...but let me mention a few items to clearify that my intent was not to mislead.

    First...most likely than not...when people think of G35..they think of the coupe and the sedan is a secondary thought. Therefore...I priced the coupe. I hope I supported my pricing of $37,000 for the G35 Coupe 6mt in my previous note. I think all will agree to the prices paid as demonstrated on the board postings on this web site. The $37k is fact.

    As for the price of the G35 sedan...I did not specifically get a pricing. However I understand that it is roughly about $35.5k. I believe compared to the TL w/nav of $32.2k which was demonstrated by 'laydi' email quote from the dealer.

    Second paragraph. Yes...I did not bargain further on the G35 as I disclosed in my initial note. However...once again...the pricing I provided is pricing paid by others on the board...after negotiations. Please refer to the messages on the board which I referred to...those are actual paid prices ($37k for a G35 6mt coupe). I did not make them up. $37k...fact once again.

    So let me summarize. Most think of the G35 as a coupe. The G35 6mt coupe with Nav is selling for $37k according to multiple postings on this web site's board. The G35 sedan is approximately $35.5k. These prices compares to Acura TL which is being initially quoted to a prospective buyer at $32.5k...with a likely purchase price of ~$32k after negotiations.

    All in all...forget the discussion of the pricing. Look towards my initial email today which goes over the various amentities of the TL...and how it addresses 'laydi' initial email which communicates her wants and desires in a car....she wants the world. The TL should be considered.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Yours is apples and oranges as Carsdirect is not what is the going rate and not certain if it even includes destination charges....as once again...look at what people have been paying on the boards here.

    You're right...any person with decent negotiating skills should be buying lower than carsdirect.com's price.

    I am not making it up...just look at the prices paid on the boards. Re-read my message #3902 and you will see.

    Those people aren't very good at what they're doing. The G35 6mt with navi, xm, premium and splash guards (what blazes is that?) is listed for 33k on carsdirect.com. I'd expect any infinit dealer would beat that by $200-500.

    There's a $2000 manufacturer to dealer incentive on the G35. That means, get the price to $200 over invoice (what one should pay for a car this old) and then subtract another $2k from the price. that's the target. of course 200-500 is more realistic.

    And if you can't get a dealer to let you in on the $2k, that dealer isn't worth going to.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    First...most likely than not...when people think of G35..they think of the coupe

    First, you're on a SEDAN board so when comparing the TL to the G35 we're talking sedan to sedan. Second, the sedan outsells the coupe by over 1 thousand units a month. The sedan is what MOST G35 buyers think of...as it's what most of them buy!
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    My visual survey of the road and dealership indicates G35 coupes is most common (perhaps it is only in So Calif). And from the appearance of the G35 edmunds board discussions...it also appears to be coupes are more popular. Either way....the outcome is the same.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Please point me to a posting on the board to support your position. I am sure they will boast of their success. Once again...we are talking about the price of a G35 6mt coupe with all indicated and destination. I could be incorrect...but would like to see a posting of a materially different price.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    My visual survey of the road and dealership indicates G35 coupes is most common (perhaps it is only in So Calif). And from the appearance of the G35 edmunds board discussions...it also appears to be coupes are more popular. Either way....the outcome is the same.

    Oh well you've empriically deduced what nationally released sales numbers refute. Okay..facts, schmacts, you see more coupes, so therefore the G35 coupe is more popular.

    wow...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    For the kids in the back row...this is a sedan board.not sure why you're going on and on about the pricing of a coupe on a luxury sedan comparison board.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I went on and on because others (such as yourself) popped up with a challenge.

    You are right...truce on the pricing concept. TL is still the recommendation.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    First...most likely than not...when people think of G35..they think of the coupe and the sedan is a secondary thought

    I must admit, delmar, I assumed you were talking about the sedan. That's what I usually think of when I think of the G35, and from laydi's post, it seemed clear she was looking specifically for sedans.

    You're a knowledgable poster, and in my book, your past posts have earned you the benefit of the doubt. I think that YOU always think of the G35 Coupe b/c in your mind (and IMO), the TL is clearly a better overall vehicle than the G35 Sedan, while someone who can go with a coupe or a sedan would have a tougher time deciding between the TL and the G35 coupe.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    Oh well you've empriically deduced what nationally released sales numbers refute. Okay..facts, schmacts, you see more coupes, so therefore the G35 coupe is more popular.

    I think you should give the guy a break on this. We don't all have time to pur over facts and figures (we're too busy posting in thse forums!!! ;) ). I assume what I see on the road in my area applies nationally, too. We all base things to some extent on personal experience, and if delmar mainly sees coupes (or even if he just mainly NOTICES coupes), it's understandable for him to assume they're more popular.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Well said taxesquire. OK...now that we are done with the pricing concept and we now have beaten to death the price of the TL ($32k), GS coupe ($37k) and GS sedan ($35.5k?) and I am not going to discuss that any further. No more.

    I have to agree (imo) with the statement made in the post.... 'the TL is clearly a better overall vehicle than the G35 Sedan'. But that is up for discussion.... what topic of comparison of the TL and GS sedan do we wish to discuss?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "'the TL is clearly a better overall vehicle than the G35 Sedan'."

    Depends on what your looking for. The G35 sedan will mop the floors in performance against the TL. If you take these cars to the racetrack you will see the difference. You cannot see the difference on the streets or in the cones or on the skidpad. (Why people talk about performance and then say the racetrack does not matter is beyond me?)

    If you want features go with the TL, other the G35 is a fine choice.
  • taxesquiretaxesquire Member Posts: 681
    I read a few reviews and saw no mention of a manual tranny. Anyone have definitive facts on this?

    From what I understand, it seems that the GS is a mid-level luxury sedan made to look on the outside like a sport-sedan. That would certainly make sense, since the IS is really Lexus' entry-level luxury/sport sedan.

    Anyone with a GS with nav, I'd also be interested to know if Lexus/Toyota still restricts people from enterring info while in motion.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    "The G35 sedan will mop the floors in performance on the racetrack."

    Motor Trend has the Acura at 6.3 seconds vs G35 coupe 6.2 for 0-60mph. Yeah...the G35 beats the Acura marginally on the racetrack with that differential. And as you said...you will not see the difference on the street. I didn't buy my TL for the racetrack as that would have been a waste of all the other included amenities.

    If we are talking racetrack performance...heck...we're talking about the wrong set of cars.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    'G35 coupe 6.2 for 0-60mph'

    First, I've seen figures in the low 5s for the G35. Second as I said, the TL is great until you try to swing it around a racetrack. That difference is felt on the streets.

    On one hand you can't talk performance, on the other hand you can't say what will happen on a racetrack doesn't count because they are street cars.

    That said the TL handles good enough for you. But other drivers can push the G35/3 series to places where the TL will fall apart.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Low 5's for a G35? You have to be kidding. Like to see the source of the low 5 measurement.

    As I mentioned... Motor Trend indicated the 6.2 clock time.

    That is the last I will comment on this topic. As I mentioned...if I wanted something for the racetrack... I would have selected a car other than the G35 or TL.
  • esfoadesfoad Member Posts: 210
    Nice to see healthy bickering that mine is better than yours. I say each to his own and let's move on. My choice after extensive back to back testing was for the G35X. A big decision was the all wheel drive since I live in the hills of NJ. Don't laugh, they exist and the ice and snow are real here. Otherwise it was a difficult decision and every time I see a TL (very often here in northern NJ) I question if I made the right choice. I love my car and time will tell, expecially next winter when I determine if the AWD was worth it. BTW, 8300 trouble-free miles and counting. I've heard alot about the difference in the sound systems in these cars. I have the Bose and, for my 52 year old ears, it sounds fantastic. The TL's was also great but I'm not sure it was better. Bluetooth was not needed yet since I don't own any Bluetooth devices and we have an aftermarket Garmin nav system so that was not a decision maker either. So, all that to say it's really a personal choice and I hope all are satisfied with their purchase. Since for many of us it's a long term purchase, it had better be the right choice because we'll have to live with it for a while.
  • jamesspotjamesspot Member Posts: 57
    I've driven both cars and concur with the above assessments. Price for the base sedans is close enough to not be a discriminator.

    The TL is the one I'd buy for my wife, the G35 is the "muscle car" my younger brother would want.

    Me - mid 40's male - imola red 330i - it's having your sport sedan cake and eating your luxury cake, too. Costs a little more, but to me it was worth it.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    The G "Base" sedan has no amentities and is not comparable. Need to upgrade with the premium package and sports suspension package.

    For your reading pleasure...the latest Road and Track uses the TL as a compable to the 2006 BMW 330i (which is priced at $48k). Check out the news stand at your local Barnes and Noble.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I am agreeable to the GS as tilted more towards the luxury end. I would say it is more comparable to the Acura RL. Of course...you need to consider the GS 430 and not the GS 300 to get more sport elements.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The problem is you are pricing the BMW in such a way that would not be optioned by me. In that you assume people want all of the gadgets. I don't.

    Two reasons I won't buy the TL, 1) FWD and 2) to many gadgets with no options.

    My well optioned 330i is about 41K. Everything I need, nothing I don't.

    You might want to check out this link:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106052
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I didn't price it...Road and Track magazine priced it. (Wait...I promised in a earlier post not to talk pricing...I better shut up. No more from me).

    BTW...the TL has no options because it is all inclusive.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Ah..shifting the pricing blame to R/T.

    The TL has no options and to many gadgets for me.

    I like to drive the car not fiddle.
  • jamesspotjamesspot Member Posts: 57
    for performance package, natural brown leather, xenons, and cold weather package (fold down rear seats, heated front seats, and headlight washers ). The car was only $10k more than a V-6 Accord and less than $5k more than either the TL or the G35. To me - worth it. Still, the smaller engined 325i outsold the 330i by 6 to 1, so price does make a difference, even for the average BMW consumer.

    I really like the TL - a very nice car - good-looking, fast, comfortable, a beautiful interior, and all the high tech done right.
    I also like the G35, particularly with a manual transmission. It has "V-8 like" power and good brakes. The automatic transmission is the weakest link in the G35 sedan.

    I think the GS300 and 430 are in another class all together and compete against the 5 series BMW and the Acura RL. The Lexus equivalent is the updated IS250 and 350. I'm still waiting to check those two out. The old IS handled fine, but was a bit gaudy for my taste.

    I still think the TL is the one for the lady, as it nicely bridges the gap between her soft, luxurious ES300 and the G35. A little more sport than what she drove before, but not the whole hog of the G35.
  • nyrefugeenyrefugee Member Posts: 35
    "The G "Base" sedan has no amentities and is not comparable. Need to upgrade with the premium package and sports suspension package."

    Ok I really do not like flame wars, but since some people may actually use these forums to make a car buying decision I feel like I should disagree with this statement.

    The G base actually has a lot of features. Power leather heated seats six cd in dash changer with mp3, adjutsable wheel with telescoping, adjustable rear seats, power window and mirrors, side and curtain airbags, xenon lights etc. Not as much features as the accord of course but enough that you are not really missing anything. And as such it is 2k cheaper than the base acord. If you insist that the premium package is necessary for comparison then the g35 is about 1.5 k more expensive.

    And no the G35 does not need the performance package to compare with a base accord. The G35 multilink suspension is more advanced than the acura double wishbone one. Also the G35 uses aluminum in its suspension elements I am not sure if the acura does (they dont mention it, which probably means they use steel). In any event the g35 will handle better even if you do not consider the acura's fwd. And the problems with the fwd have already been beaten to death in these forums. So in conclusion a standard suspension g35 will handle better than the standard TL suspension.

    On top of everything else if you get the manual tranny you get the performance package standard as well. So then you have to add the 18 inch wheels to the tl in order to make it comparable. So the G35 with the premium package will be about the same price as a comparable tl with the 18 inch wheels. I cannot give exact numbers here because the 18 inch wheels on the TL require unspecified dealership installation charges.

    So in summary:
    g35 auto vs TL auto = TL is 1.5 k cheaper
    g35 manual vs TL manual = about the same price

    In these packages the TL has some more features and better interior while the G35 has more powerful engine and better handling. There you go.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I am getting out of this discussion. But since people may be making educated buying decisions...let me list a few things included in the 'premium package' ... many features which are already included in the TL pricing...but which require additional costs to upgrade from a base G35:

    Sunroof.
    Premium audio system with 7 speakers.
    Driver's seat memory with entry/exit assist.
    Steering wheel memory.
    Electrochromic auto-dimming inside mirror.
    HomeLink® Universal Transceiver.
    Etc.

    And...don't forget to include the XM satellite radio.

    I am out and done with this discussion. Both cars are fine. Test drive both...and make an educated decision.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,618
    "I still think the TL is the one for the lady, . . ."

    Well put. One might add, "or those who drive like ladies."

    Or not.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    It isn't a car for the lady.. The look isn't that feminine.. To be honest, the front look looks like a sports car. It has a very aggresive and sporty look. I don't know.. it just seems odd for a female to like something aggesive and sporty (not saying that there aren't women who are like that). But on the road, I see mostly women who drive like Camrys.. or for those who are rich or want to be outstanding, Beemers, Benz, Minis, or VW Beatles. All this is just my opinion.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    The car was only $10k more than a V-6 Accord and less than $5k more than either the TL or the G35.

    As it damn well should be. An '04 330i is only the size of a Civic, not even in the same size class of Accord or TL or G35, which are all in the size league of the 5 series.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Let's be honet, the TL is the best value.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    Motor Trend has the Acura at 6.3 seconds vs G35 coupe 6.2 for 0-60mph. Yeah...the G35 beats the Acura marginally on the racetrack with that differential. And as you said...you will not see the difference on the street. I didn't buy my TL for the racetrack as that would have been a waste of all the other included amenities.

    Uh, tracking a car has very little to do with 0-60. Tell us how the TL does going into a coming out of a corner. No WOT out of a corner with a TL...you'll end up in a ditch.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Member Posts: 6,249
    yes, to each his own. The TL, like all Acuras (save for the NSX), has a very feminine look about it. nothing wrong with that but the look seems decidely aimed at attracting female drivers (like BMW's Z3).
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    So you're saying then a Crown Victoria must be the best car for the money, since it's the biggest for the money?
  • lalacaliflalacalif Member Posts: 5
    'it just seems odd for a female to like something aggresive (sic) and sporty (not saying that there aren't women who are like that).'

    That posting is sexist. I am a female and an educated professional in her early 30s who happen to drive a TL. I have driven grocery haulers (Camry) to a Mercedes SLK. And I select the TL for many reasons. Not because I am odd. Or I am masculine. And I do not scare men off with my car.

    As for whether I drive like a 'lady' as another here suggest that the TL drivers are....shame on you. How narrow minded. You must drive alone a lot.

    As a point of reference for the original poster 'laydi'...the TL was purchased because the TL is the best value out there. It is well balanced between sports and luxury. It has all the supple luxury you would expect from a Lexus as you have driven. It has leading edge technology such as bluetooth. It has the amenities that can impress. It is a pleasurable car to entertain with. The performance is fun and exciting (forget all the discussions here of 0-60 times and the thought that aluminum in the suspension makes for a superior car) (I doubt many that slam here haven't even test driven the TL).

    Are the above attributes of why I purchased my car only valued by females? I doubt. Just as not all males measure their cars by 0-60 times but by other attributes.

    As for a lot of these recent postings, these are my thoughts. The people in the G35 camp....they are sports purists and are slanted more towards the 'sports-luxury'. The TL contingency is slanted more towards the 'luxury-sports'. Who is right? Nobody.

    If you do wish to beat up on each other...there is the "Acura TL vs G35" board. Sample include this...
    306 of 306 Re: Oy Vey! [realty_pro] by bodble2 Jul 22, 2005 (8:05 pm)
    Bookmark | Reply | E-mail Msg
    Replying to: realty_pro (Jul 22, 2005 6:11 pm)

    Actually IMO the G35 sedan is the one which is not in the same league as the other 2 -- even if the other 2 play in 2 different leagues! The G is no BMW when it comes to performance and driving "feel", and it is no match for the TL when it comes to features, amenities and quality, and it is inferior to both in terms of styling!


    And it would be extremely boring if we all drove the same car model...wouldn't it?
  • odessitodessit Member Posts: 140
    I don’t like milk. Actually don’t like all dairy products for that matter. Just don’t like them at all. My friend on the contrary does like milk and dairy products a lot. And you know what – we never argue about it. He never says milk is good and I never say milk is not good. We find that it is not wise to argue about out taste simply because it is a given. There are many other topics that are healthy to discus than someone’s taste :)

    And a special note to Lalacalif. (Pat, please, don’t delete this posting. I think I am not breaking any rules here:)) Lalacalif, I think you posting is feminist ;)

    mike
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Member Posts: 3,062
    So in conclusion a standard suspension g35 will handle better than the standard TL suspension.

    Hold on. How about some facts.

    Road and Track, a long established and reputable magazine, does "standardized" testing of autos. Check out "Road Test Summary" in the back of recent issues.

    Data for skidpad and slalom tests are:

    Acura TL - 0.87g, 65.8 mph
    G35 - 0.86g, 65.0 mph

    Looks pretty close to me. And within the margin of error, would have to say that both cars about equal in handling per actual testing.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,565
    Well.. I'm offended that you've referred to my beloved Camry as a "grocery hauler"... That implies that I'm somehow more of a housewife, than the big burly man that I am.... ;)

    Great.... Now, even women are offended by having their rides described as "chick cars"...

    Edmunds Price Checker
    Edmunds Lease Calculator
    Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!

    Edmunds Moderator

Sign In or Register to comment.