Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

taxesquire

I love the TLs styling. I look at it from the front and the headlight-setup reminds me of Ford Mustang; from the side its BMW M5-ish, and from the back - well, I don't know what it is from the back, but it looks nice and I think the trapezoidal (??) exhaust pipes are cool. :shades:

By-the-way, delmar, sorry I didn't have your back during the TL slam event. :mad: I left work early and have been doin' the "husband/daddy thing" 'til now. Anyway, I've decided to stop replying to the "TLs are Accord" comments. Yes, it's based on an accord, but it's better in so many ways that the educated consumer wouldn't think of them the same. I'm bored with the whole argument.

And by-the-way, the comments of whether the TL was "girlie" was disgusting and you should be ashamed. Beautiful is beautiful - and there are fast women drivers just like there are fast men drivers. I drive much faster than my wife, but she taught me to drive a manual tranny. What does that tell you about her or I? Nothing!!! The TLs a beautiful car for any driver. I think it looks kinda tough, and my Mom shied away from it for that reason, but I wouldn't love my TL any less if my Mom had one. It's one of the few cars that truly balances luxury and performance. She'd get it for the luxury features, including the logical voice-recognition that'd make her car-rides more enjoyable. I got it for that too, but more for its power and handling.

Anyone categorizing a vehicle as girlie or otherwise needs to grow up and define themselves by more things than what they drive or the size of their....car!!!

frisconick

I would be concerned about the vette's reliability, but the vette has a lot of WOW. They have a convertable with 500 horses!!! :P

danny1878

Cant agree more!

Taxesquire : they made up a girlie category or they have to rely on feelings because they cant bash the car in reality (real world). They cant deny all the facts/numbers.

Blueguy : Changed you mind about TL ended up in a ditch.

All cars can get smoked while getting in/out of a corner. But TL will smoke them again in 5.7 secs. Hey at least I have a fact not just feeling (5.7).

BMW RWD+undepower= understeer ->speaking about getting smoked

G35 RWD=oversteer /tail out -> You get smoked too

TL FWD=largely devoid any torque steer (remedy dont leave you hands off the steering wheel while cornering)
-> well I get smoked too

frisconick

The vette is a very tempting car, especially because I am not that old yet, and I would look good in it.

taxesquire

My dad had the last model vette and absolutely loved it. He also had no mechanical problems, and he drives cars harder than anyone I know. BTW, don't know if they still have the manual convertable top, but if they do, it shouldn't scare you - very easy to do - even faster than the electric ones.

I think it's also gotten very good write-ups as being a very liveable sportscar.

That the restyled vette's got rid of the pop-up lights is a huge plus to me. It's a beaut!!!!

frisconick

Although your dad had no problems, that is only a sample of one and not something I would take seriously. I have to do more research on the car before I can make a decision. I was not considering the car unitl I saw your posts. Now I am going to research the car big time.

It's a beaut!!!! No kidding :P

delmar1

Ok...you are partially correct regarding the Pantheon as I have visited both locations...and not a figment of your imagination.

However...the location in Paris took on the literal definition of Pantheon and named after the Roman temple. "Pantheon" is defined as "A temple dedicated to all gods" or "A public building commemorating and dedicated to the heroes and herioines on a nation"

Generally when people refer to Pantheon...they refer to the ancient temple located in Rome. See the below link.

http://www.greatbuildings.com/buildings/Pantheon.html

Yes....the Paris building was built after the Rome temple. If you look at your link's fourth paragraph, it indicates "The portico, with large Corinthian columns was modeled after the 2nd century Pantheon in Rome"

Sorry for the history lesson everyone....

kdshapiro

Yes, but two seats. Low in the utility value unless of course the back seats aren't needed. And then you have to deal with the less than stellar interior compared to some other sports cars.

delmar1

The original post indicated the two criteria of $50k and Toyota. If you remove the requirement of Toyota....there are plenty of choices. M3? I would go with the 5 series myself.

delmar1

Sorry Blueguydotcom....I didn't mean to impose and get up in your face and even posted further until I saw your latest response.

Hey folks....I have been posting on this forum since late this past week. Some of you thought I was bashing and all.... Just to clear the air...no...I was not flaming or bashing the G35. All my comments were straight up and honest ...and as factual as I am aware. Just some people don't want to hear the truth or can appreciate an alternate point of view. Therefore...I even gave up on the topic of discussion as it is falling on deaf ears. Alrighty....I vented.

Any how....if you folks haven't been to Paris....the Latin Quartier is great ! And take the subways...one of the best around the world.

blueguydotcom

He said fun. That negates Toyota. :P

wish they hadn't axed the second gen mr2. that was a fun car!

blueguydotcom

Del,

No problem.

I dig europe. I was just talking to a friend last night about Paris/France and Italy. She's trying to convince me to fly back there soon but we originally made plans for March when I pick up my e90 for Euro Delivery. Of course, I'm now reconsidering the e90 because of BMW's inability to fix my e46. Thus maybe I'll get a used G35, new Miata or a new TSX to hold me over for a few years until the M3 sedan shows up.

delmar1

Good...glad you understand.

One last travel tip for the folks here....especially those that like to travel. You have to consider visiting China. The foreign currency conversion is incredible (why pay the 30% premium for Euros when you can still get ~15% discount to the USD). Incredible to see not only the historic and ancient China (ie TerraCotta Warriors of Xian)...but to see the incredible industrialization. I never seen so many cranes in action in any city. All the major cities. And with that...you all can understand how the price of gas is going up with their consumption.

Cars there....the worst ! Freeway traffic in Shanghai....never seen anything like it. And they tax the heck out of you for licenses from what I understand.

Back to the TL talk. Let me ask again....the TL interior (since the focus has been on the exterior). I still say it is one of the best in the category. Thoughts?

blueguydotcom

Love Audi/VW interiors. Then BMW. Then MB. Then TL. Finally G35/IS300.

I like interiors that are cold, remote, and not the least bit cushy. I'm odd like that.

frisconick

Most silver TLs have a black interior with a brushed aluminum finish, very cool and not at alll cushy, you would love it.

taxesquire

And then you have to deal with the less than stellar interior compared to some other sports cars

As with all cars in this discussion, there's a balance between sportiness and comfort. I don't believe there is any vehicle faster than the Corvette, in terms of straight-out accelleration and handling, that also has a better interior design.

taxesquire

Guess my suggestions for a sporty toyota would be a Lexis SC and probably the upcoming IS.

Has the Celica been redesigned recently? I know the Eclipse has and it looks very cool!!!

frisconick

The vette is an awesome machine, but I suspect reliability problems typical of most American cars.

blueguydotcom

Been in the black tl. the seats are too soft on TL/G35/IS - too couch like for me. i like the taunt, hard leather used in audi/mb/bmw. hate the leatherette as it too is too soft and compliant.

kdshapiro

Actually there are plenty faster than the Vette, but not at that price point. There are also some cars faster than the Vette that are much less expensive as in the EVO. But since you qualified it with disclaimer regarding the interior, I'll just say the Vette is a niche vehicle with two seats.

delmar1

taxesquire.... The Lexus SC is a great suggestion....but I believe they run in the $60k to $70k range. I haven't shopped them....but that is my understanding.

As for if the Celica has been redesigned lately. I believe it is going to be redesigned this coming year.

Speaking of Toyota. I was out for dinner tonite and saw a "Scion tC" (Scion is a brand from Toyota) and that car is a spitting image of the G35 Coupe. Same jelly bean look.

delmar1

Could you point out the 'couch' observation for us?

I believe you like the firmer seating areas found in the German cars with less leg support?

blueguydotcom

Couch = sit down and the soft seat allows your body to sink in so now the seat material is pressing all around you. You're not sitting on the seat but rather the material's claustrophobically sucking you in and providing zero support. You're on a fluffy cloud - say like sitting in my grandpa's park avenue when I was 13.

I greatly prefer firm seating. My couches were custom made so that I sit atop the leather...not down and wrapped up in it. Same with the leather in bmws/mbs/and audis....sit atop the seat.

Less leg support? My 330i's lower seat cushion extends to under my thighs nicely. If you mean lateral leg support, I have no idea what that would feel like. I'm five-seven and 145 lbs so I can't comprehend jokes about narrow airplane seats or the G35's controls digging into the thigh...I'd have to grow by a factor of two to have my thighs ever touch the lateral thigh supports on any car's seats.

Thigh support laterally is about as odd and unfamiliar to ma as the idea of sliding around on leather seats. Had my 330i sideways and I never budged. Shrug.

brandonh961

If it were me I would buy a new Vette. But I'm 16 and I love fast cars. If you're worried about mechanical problems give it a break because if you buy a Vette you're worried about getting a ticket, how you look in the car, how fast you can get home before your wife notices you are driving the car without her in it, and how fast you can top it out. Also the man who said an Evo can out run a Vette has lost his mind. You are comparing a 400 h.p. C6 or the new 500 h.p. Z06 to a 271 h.p. Mitsubishi Evolution. And last but not least, my stepdad has an IS300 and the seats are not couch-like at all. They feel good, yet are firm enough for aggressive driving.

blueguydotcom

Given the option of a WRX Sti or a Vette...it's Sti without ANY hestiation. The car's near unbreakable, it'll seat 4, delete the useless rear wing and you've got a fairly sedate cruiser. but also a monster of a car. Additionally, it doesn't come with the Freudian baggage of owning a Vette...what would be next, chest hair, gold chains and hang glider collars?

kdshapiro

The new EVO can hit 60 in 4.6 seconds. I don't believe a Vette is that fast.

kdshapiro

I'm with you on that. Get rid of the rear wing and....

frisconick

If it were me I would buy a new Vette. But I'm 16 and I love fast cars

LOL, if I had a vette when I was 16, I would be dead a long time ago :P .

taxesquire

Couch = sit down and the soft seat allows your body to sink in so now the seat material is pressing all around you. You're not sitting on the seat but rather the material's claustrophobically sucking you in and providing zero support.

Actually, softer seating provides better support than firm. I found this out when bed-shopping. It was pointed out that softer beds that conform to your body are better at supporting your natural arches/curves, whereas firmer beds force your body to conform more to them.

Regardless, having switched from a Passat (interior is very similar to Audi) to a TL, I understand what you are saying, and while the TLs seats don't bother me, I agree with your assessment re sitting on the seat v. in the seat. You might want to check out Cadillac's offerings and see what their seating is like.

I don't recall how BMWs seats were, but in general, German cars have firmer seats. If the price/size ratio (German cars in the same price-range as their Japanese & American counterparts are generally smaller (eg. BMW 3-series, Audi A4 v. TL, G35, CTS)) isn't working for you, you might want to look at the VW Passat. You'll lose some handling, but the new one should put out about 250/270 hp (you could try to find a used Passat v8, too), and have the seats you prefer. Again, I'm only suggesting this if the German cars with the seating you prefer and in the entry-level price range are too small.

frisconick

I prefer the softer seats, especially on long trips. But I don't think the BMW seats are not that firm, and they are comfy.

blueguydotcom

Tax,

Driven the CTS...way too Caddy soft for me in everyway. that car doesn't even rate on my scale of entry lux cars.

As for the passat, I'm a former VW owner. The new one looks ginormous and in my experience with FWD Passat, the car's so far afield of the handling I like it might as well be a pinto. For someone looking for space and semi-luxury, the Passat's grand.

FWIW, my 3 series is too big.

frisconick

So a lexus LS or Avalon are not on your short list?

brandonh961

The Vette can hit 0-60 in 4.2 sec. in the C6 coupe and in the new Z06 that will hit at the end of this year can get 0-60 in 3.4 or 3.6 sec I can't fully remember, but an Evo can't do that. Also an Evo is AWD and thats why it's so fast it will only top out at 155 or so. A Vette is RWD and can top out at 186 for the C6 and 200 for the new Z06. I doubt a Evo can do that, and I had a 1995 Pontiac Trans Am and I havent died yet. My friend had a Vette when he was 16 but his dad sold it and bought him a 2002 Pontiac Ws-6 and he isn't dead. I'm an American Muscle man but I hate Vipers and Mustangs. But I'm quite fond of Lexus,nissan,and Subaru. I like Acura but the TL was a mistake, it is a 270 H.P. FWD. They put tire that are more wide on the back than the front, plus it has really bad torque steer. The car is pretty though. I like STI but there to showy 300 H.P. but no top speed like the Evo It can handle good and take off good but nothing stands close to thew Vette for the price. I like the STI better than the Evo though. Oh, and go to MotorTrend.com and look up fastest vettes they have a C5 that can hit 0-60 in 1.97 sec. and can top out at 226 MPH.

taxesquire

Like your post, except for the statement: I like Acura but the TL was a mistake, it is a 270 H.P. FWD. They put tire that are more wide on the back than the front, plus it has really bad torque steer.

Rear tires are not larger than the front, and while the torque is significant on a 6MT from standing position, it's not significant on downshifts and others' have commented it's not severe on the automatics.

frisconick

Great post! But I don't think the TL was a mistake, it sells well, handles well, and pretty quick. Plus CR and C & D noticed no torque steer in the AT. I know, AT ain't cool, but so what. :P

kdshapiro

"Oh, and go to MotorTrend.com and look up fastest vettes they have a C5 that can hit 0-60 in 1.97 sec. and can top out at 226 MPH."

But that wouldn't be street legal...at least here.

frisconick

My TL can be street illegal at any time. I don't need a vette to break the law. :P

blueguydotcom

More than that...how much were the mods to that car?

I think he missed the point than STi is a sub 5 second car right now. With a few k in mods it'll get down to that 4 second mark. And be at least 10k cheaper than a vette.

brandonh961

Yea the STI can seat 5, it's fast, and it's pretty It also has has 300 H.P. but Subaru put everything they could put on it. Turbocharged, cold air intake, mass air flow sensor, so you can't put 10K in it unless you to bore and stroke it and put NOS in it. So it really isn't worth it when you can have an awesome sports car without having to take the life of the car away, and having a Vette gives you a whole new level of respect...

pat

Folks, let's get back to our subject vehicles - they are listed at the top of this page in the "What is this discussion about?" line.

If anyone wants to set up a comparo involving vehicles which are not listed there, feel free. Check the search features on the left to see if something that suits you already exists (if you find one that is archived, click on the link to it and then follow the directions at the top of the page). If you can't find one, just click here and fire it up.

taxesquire

Pat, the corvette is Chevy's only performance vehicle, and with a hard-top, you could say its got 3 doors. So I think it fits right in with our entry level performance sedan.

C'mon, Pat - work with me!!!!

frisconick

Pat is correct, we can't include every car. Sorry Pat.

jrock65

The following changes have been confirmed for the 2006 G35:

1) Optional Rear Active Steer Package (same as the system on M35/45 Sport)
2) Sport Package now includes a new front fascia and side sills
3) Revised LED tail lights.
4) New bi-xenon headlights
5) Bluetooth wireless on all models
6) Memory seats

blueguydotcom

All needed changes. Nice. A friend of mine just got rid of his 2003 G35. Only complaint: the car warped brakes constantly. I had a Nissan that did the same thing.

jrock65

"Since its groundbreaking redesign in 2004, the Acura TL has solidified its place as both the top selling Acura and best-selling luxury sedan in the country. The TL comes equipped with a 3.2-liter, VTEC V-6 engine, a drive-by-wire throttle system, and an available close-ratio 6-speed manual transmission with limited slip differential. For 2006, a Tire Pressure Monitoring System is added to the TL’s already long list of standard safety features as are two new exterior colors.

* Tire Pressure Monitoring System (TPMS)
* Revised engine management system and steering angle sensor logic help reduce torque steer
* New Colors:
o Royal Blue Pearl replaces Abyss Blue Pearl
o Alabaster Silver Metallic replaces Satin Silver Metallic
o Deep Green Pearl discontinued

New horsepower/torque ratings: 258 horsepower SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 6200 rpm, 233 lbs-ft. of torque SAE net (Rev 8/04) at 5000 rpm"

kyfdx

Claimed horsepower is going down?

taxesquire

Claimed horsepower is going down?

This lay-person's explanation: There's a new way to measure HP, and this new calculation is resulting a lower number.

Don't know whether they're taking into account ground friction, wind resistance, or what.

gordonwd

The SAE has basically revised the rules on how HP is measured on the dyno to try to make the numbers more realistic. IOW, they try to keep the dyno-geeks from "cheating" a bit to get their numbers up.

This has already been done in the past. Back in my early days in the industry (1960s), engines were tested on a dyno with everything possible done to maximize the horsepower. This included running with open pipes, no air cleaner, no accessories (i.e. power steering pump or alternator), no fan, etc., etc. If you look at the old HP ratings of 60s and 70s muscle cars, you'll see that 350 - 400HP and more were common ratings. By today's standards, with engines realistically dressed out, these engines would be rated 100 - 150HP lower.

darrenw

For people in the habit of thinking about SAE net horsepower, or old musclecar enthusiasts accustomed to SAE gross numbers, looking at real-world rear-wheel horsepower can be quite a wake-up call. This 1970 Charger makes an excellent example. Its 318 was factory rated in 1970 at 230 horsepower (SAE gross). But on the dyno it came just short of 150 horsepower (corrected rear-wheel). As a very general rule, rear-wheel horsepower on a manual-transmission car is about 15% less than SAE net, and rear-wheel horsepower on an automatic-transmission car is about 20% less than SAE net.

darrenw

For the 2006 model year, all Acura horsepower and torque specifications have been updated to reflect revised Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) J1349 (Rev 8/04) net calculations that went into effect in January of 2005.

Since that went into effect in January, could it be possible to effect the G also?