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Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans



  • designmandesignman Posts: 2,129
    That ahem was funny. I had a feeling we'd be seeing you around today. But before we get back to serious business I have to ask where you weigh in on The Three Stooges? That's it now... promise I'll be good. After all, this is a very serious place!!

    :-) :-) :-)
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    I might be from Mars, but I like to vacation in Venus. :)

    Now back to cars...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    Latest stuff floating around BMW concerns the new 3.0 used in the upcoming 630i. It'll produce 250+ HP but still the anemic torque rating of 221 or so. Argh. That engine will be in the e90 3 series.

    Word is also coming that a turbo version will be around with 333 hp as the high end 330i before one jumps to an M3 with a V8.

    Turbo? If it's small low pressure turbo, that'll help the torque-deficiency problem of BMW's overly praised inline 6.

    And someone asked about a favorite film...I see too many to ever narrow it down to one. If I had to pick 5, The Third Man, Once Were Warriors, Cool Hand Luke (or Butch and Sundance or The Hustler), Out of Sight and Princess Bride.

    Rebel Without a Cause = movie without a plot or decent acting. :)
  • tasdisrtasdisr Posts: 25
    Thanks for the feedback. I am going to check them both out tomorrow.
    I already own a TL type S and it has been rock solid, but I like the new style much better. Volvo just opened a dealership less than a mile so I thought being so close I would check the s40 out.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    The Mazda3 is basically a less dressy version of the S40. Same basic car for less money. With the money saved you could look into some simple mods for the 2.4 Mazda drops into the car. I know Mazda's owners are crazy about tinkering. One turbo could make the 3 an insanely fun little car/hatch.
  • rrorisonrrorison Posts: 6
    Tasdisr...Please share your feedback with us on your test drives and experience.
  • merrelmerrel Posts: 45
    Wait a sec- I'm confused- are we talking about the old movies of the 1940's or Dubya, Carl Rove and Cheney?
  • r34r34 Posts: 178
    Someone mentioned Volvo designed the "WHIPS" safety device (headrest ??). This made me think of something interested about Saab.

    I read some history of Saab several weeks ago and found that certain ideas/products were created by Saab but everyone thought other manufacturers created them. Saab was the first one to came up with the followings:

    1. Heated seat (I thought it was MB or BMW)
    2. Ventilated/cooling Seat (I thought it was MB)
    3. WHIPS and headlight wipers
       (I though it was Volvo too)

    4. etc.etc...

    Saab was one of the first car maker to build a production turbo car successfully (I am not sure if Saab was the first one but they were among the first group).

    It seems that Saab didn't do much in the Marketing area to promote its "unique" features but some car-makers want you to believe they were the pioneer of certain features.

    A car-maker (Ford ??) put a TV commerical several months ago said the Cooling Seat was one of their innovative ideas. Interesting...
  • ponytrekkerponytrekker Posts: 306
    True. I just saw a Nissan nearly split in two on the saw mill pky. Very little safety cage protection. A pillar and B pillar virtually non existant. Hope the people inside are OK (didn't see them)
  • ponytrekkerponytrekker Posts: 306
    Can you say "Buy my E46 for residual value at lease end?"
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    LOL. There's very little doubt in my mind that my e46 will not be worth nearly what the lease claims.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    I've seen a Mercedes and a Lexus split cleanly into two different pieces on the road (after the fact of course). I don't know what happened to make that happen, but these things really depend on the severity of the impact.

    Anyways, anyone really know what the engine choices are for the next 3? I've read a 230hp to 250hp 3.0L and a 260hp to 290hp 3.5L.

    I guess they'll be called the 330i and 335i then? If true, I can see the 330i outselling the 335i by more than 8 to 1. Even right now, the 325i outsells the 330i by 5 to 1.
  • saugataksaugatak Posts: 488
    Turbo? If it's small low pressure turbo, that'll help the torque-deficiency problem of BMW's overly praised inline 6.

    Short of bumping up displacement or supercharging, there isn't a lot that can be done to increase max. torque.

    220ft-lb to 230 ft-lb sounds about right for a 3.0L engine.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    "One turbo could make the 3 an insanely fun little car/hatch."

    I think this car already exists - Subaru sells it...
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    think this car already exists - Subaru sells it...

    No they don't. They sell a plasticky econobox with a heavy and instrusive AWD system. Heck there's still no sunroof or leather on the WRX.

    It goes like stink. Beyond that...
  • r34r34 Posts: 178
    Here is the link of some REAL stories (not test results):

    The one submitted by Willie C. on June 2000 was amazing.

    "Saab focuses on a Real-life Safety philosophy of designing cars to be as safe as possible in real-world accident situations, rather than just laboratory tests. Since 1972 Saab has investigated more than 5,000 accidents involving Saabs in Sweden... The Saab 9-5 has been subjected to more than 40 different crash test configurations, including car-to-car, car-to-truck and car-to-dummy-moose. Of these, only 11 are mandated by government standards."
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Posts: 54
    For some reason, the German cars have side marker lights on either the body or the side mirror while Japanese and American luxury cars generally don't have this feature (a few do though). I find this feature invaluble when other cars are changing lanes. It's difficult to see the corner lights in the front of the merging car but if all cars had side maker lights, I'm sure driving would be a bit safer. Why more cars don't have this inexpensive feature I don't know. I'm actually kinda of suprised that my dad's '96 Volvo doesn't have this feature.
  • tasdisrtasdisr Posts: 25
    I just came back from my test drive of the tl and s40.
    The s40's performance and handling were great. Fit and
    finish were excellent and the seats were very comfortable.
    The sound system was impressive. The seating position seems
    much higher than in the tl and the overall ride was more
    comfortable than the tl.

    The tl's performance and handling were excellent. Again fit
    and finish was great and seating was comfortable. The ride was
    a little harsher than the s40 and harsher than my current tl type-s.
    The sound system to me was hands down much more impressive than
    the volvo. The seating was not as comfortable as the s40, but I preferred the seating position over the s40.

    Overall I like the tl much more than the s40. The s40 was lacking in some areas, such as very small door pockets for storage and a very
    small console and center armrest. The s40's door armrests were very narrow when compared to the tl. They are both great cars but I definetly prefer the Acura.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 53,799
    I would think the TSX and the S40 would be a fairer comparison... Closer in size, price, and power?


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • tasdisrtasdisr Posts: 25
    Lenghtwise you are correct. The s40 is about 10 inches shorter than
    the TL and has 218 hp compared to the TL's 270. Pricewise by the time
    you option the S40 out to be comparable to the TL the sticker price
    is about the same. The TL is 34,650 and the S40 T5 with premium pkg,convenience pkg, climate pkg, DSTC, bi-xenon hlamps and moonroof
    is 35065.00.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 53,799
    I don't care if it has a rocket booster under the hood.... Who would possibly pay that for an S40? Forget the TL, for $35K I could list at least ten other cars to buy instead of the S40.


    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • scott1scott1 Posts: 50
    "For some reason, the German cars have side marker lights on either the body or the side mirror while Japanese and American luxury cars generally don't have this feature (a few do though)."

      I believe those side marker lights are required on cars sold in Europe. I toured the Corvette factory in Bowling Green Kentucky a few years back, and noticed several new Corvettes parked near the end of the line that had fender mounted side marker lights. The guide said those were for export, and those lights were needed.
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    35k for a TL? Maybe with Navi. It's a 33k car without it. And I don't know how to outfit an s40 to hit 35k but I couldn't manage it on Carsdirect.
  • tasdisrtasdisr Posts: 25
    The prices I listed were sticker prices, not what the dealer
    was actually willing to sell the car for
  • blueguydotcomblueguydotcom Posts: 6,257
    I checked on the's a 33k car without navi. If you're comparing price-wise a navi equipped TL to an S40 without one that's not really apples and oranges.

    I managed to get an s40 to 36k by adding every option (radio pack with dvd navi). 36k for a car that's platform is the same as the Mazda3?!
  • dcwong1dcwong1 Posts: 54
    That's what I thought too about it being mandated by EU but my father drives a '96 Volvo 850T and it doesn't have the side marker lights. I would have that Volvo, touted as a very safe car, would have this extra safety feature.
  • fedlawmanfedlawman Posts: 3,118
    I've had Alfa Romeo's on my mind again lately (once you've owned one, they never really leave you) and ran across this video while surfing the Pacific Northwest Alfa Romeo Club website.


    Pacific Raceways is a terrific road course, and the local Porsche, BMW, Audi, and Alfa Clubs hold track events throughout the year. Lucky for me, even Acura's are invited!

    For reference, the group is tracking out of turn 3(b) when the video begins.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    " The Mercedes C class is an entry lux sedan. A civic is a compact car weiging less while being smaller and having less equipment smaller engine. Of course a C class will trample a civic IT WEIGHS AS MUCH AS A G OR MORE. Hello a hummer will crush a blazer. No one said all cars are equal."

    You missed the point by a country mile. I said that the C or S40 would come out in accident better, not one between a C-Class and a Civic. Weight has very little to do with how safe the car is going to be. Tell that all the cops getting killed in their very heavy Crown Vics. How the car is designed is more important than how heavy it is. Why the H do you think anyone said this was a "tank battle"? Who said anything who is going to crush who? You're confused.

    " What's the big deal with 65 vs 45. Do you really know what's best for engineers designing cars. No.

    You're right I don't, butt companies like Volvo and Mercedes and Saab do. They've been doing just that for over 40 years, 50+ in the case of MB and Volvo.

    " It's easy to make tests have 65 mph as national standard but most cars would be demolished - while our class would benefit the rest of the smaller 75 cars on the market would be scrap after an offset frontal at that speed."

    Sorry but this makes no sense to me. Problem is you're stuck on that test lab stuff. An offset crash isn't the only type of accident you can have.

    I'm not knocking the G35, but Nissan has been very skimpy with their cars to get them to the market right now and there is no way I'll believe that they're just as safe as Volvo, Saab or Mercedes…these companies while they've had their problems in other areas have never compromised on safety. Now Nissan is supposed to have matched them in an area they weren't even an expert in during the time where they're cutting cost at every possible area. Right. GM cars feel solid too, doesn't mean they are safe. The crash-test failing Acura RL feels solid too.

  • chrisbothchrisboth Posts: 493
    "but Nissan has been very skimpy with their cars to get them to the market right now and there is no way I'll believe that they're just as safe as Volvo, Saab or Mercedes"

    Skimpy my @&;^. The cars on the line right now have nissan at the height of the industry on just about every front including product quality.

    Profit in an oversupplied industry is just one indication that "rushing to market" is hogwash. The g35 certainly wasn't rushed to market nor was the FX the Z or the upcoming M45. You don't own the toughest class for 2 years running and put the competition into a tailspin with "rushed to market" cars and inferior design.

    As for safety you know as much as I do about what the G will do...nada so until we KNOW your speculation is as meaninglss as mine. I know marketing won't save you neither will past research by some truly good companies that made safety a priority - typically euro makers. If that makes you feel good about paying a premium for a volvo or bmw then pay away.
  • speedracer3speedracer3 Posts: 650
    I managed to get an s40 to 36k by adding every option (radio pack with dvd navi). 36k for a car that's platform is the same as the Mazda3?!

    Well, it goes both ways, one could say the TL is a $33K Honda Accord. Or a ES330 is a $35K Toyota Camry. Although, the S40 is priced in the same range as its competitors, it order to beat them, it needed to be priced lower. IMO that's where Volvo failed.
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