Subaru Crew Cafe

ateixeira

I think the gains tend to be fairly marginal, maybe 5% or so.

The real benefit is that they can control combustion better - there may be bigger gains in emissions control.

rsholland

I was under the impression the gains were about 10%, but I could be wrong.

Bob

saedave

The Cadillac 3.6 liter CTS goes from 19 to 20 mpg when a direct injection model is selected. With that 5.2+% a Subaru 2.5i would go from 22 to 23 rated city mpg.

The Cadillac HP increases from 263 to 304 with DI. I suspect the DI engine could be tuned for more MPG and less HP by lowering the rpm for max torque. The extra cost of DI is easily absorbed by an additional price for performance. Performance until recently has been measured in HP; perhaps mpg will be the new measure of value. The 2.5i has sufficient HP, but less than stellar mpg.

p0926

Bob- It's a promotion related transfer. Hopefully it's the last time I'll have to move until I retire.

-Frank

volkov

I've never bought the poor mileage criticism of the 2.5 motor. If apples to apples comparos are made, it gets almost exactly the same mileage as comparable AWD l4's from the competition including Toyo or Honda.
EPA lists 2.5 Forester as 20/26 in 4AT
CR-V 20/26
RAV4 21/27
Rogue 21/26 (and it's smaller inside)
Escape 19/25
Matrix 20/26. (I never could figure out how the smaller, lower profile Matrix got worse milage than the RAV, but it's the same as the Impreza not getting better FE than the Forester)

Sure there are more fuel efficient vehicles out there, but none that get stellar mileage in the same size and AWD configuration, and more important, none that seperate themselves from the Subie.

volkov

Maybe more to the point is that the compact AWD SUV available with DI aka the Tiguan gets the worst mileage of the bunch at 18/24 and needs Premium. I think the Euros and Aussies get smaller engine options which improve on that iirc.
Maybe it's not the engine, but rather a 5EAT which could really improve efficiency for Subie.

p0926

Maybe it's not the engine, but rather a 5EAT which could really improve efficiency for Subie.

I doubt it. Since the 5MT is rated 20/26, I don't see a 5EAT doing any better.

-Frank

Edit: Depending on the source, the 5MT is listed at either 20/26 or 20/27. Regardless, there's not a significant difference.

tsy

They need a 6EAT with a tall highway cruising gear- that would increase highway mileage anyway.

Maybe they just need something like SI drive, only more like "ECO" drive. Just have a program for more economy but less performance. Having the engine stop at stoplights and stuff. Could get an MPG or 2 more maybe?

I've been driving mostly on I mode and getting about 19mpg, which is pretty good. It quickly drops to about 15-16 on S# though.

tom

kurtamaxxxguy

Wrt Tiguan 6 speed Auto AWD .vs. Forester XT 4 speed auto, the Tiguan, in test after test, gets worse mileage _and_ is slower during acceleration.

Possible reason: The Tiguan is roughly 300 lbs heavier than the Forester.

How would the Forester compare if 300 lbs were put in its cargo area to equalize the weight wrt Tiguan?
For that matter, has anyone tried measuring Forester gas mileage with large payload (ie, family on trip), then measuring gas mileage in same Forester with driver only?

rsholland

Don't think we'll see a 6EAT. Everything I've read points to CVTs replacing all automatics. Also, I know Subaru was looking into DSGs too. I hope we'll see one offered in the WRX and STI, especially now that the EVO and Ralliart offer a DSG.

Bob

xwesx

I never saw marked drops in fuel economy in relation to interior payload with my wagons. They were all Outbacks rather than Foresters, but the model is not going to make much difference. In the same conditions, no payload (save for driver) would yield 28, while a full payload would net 27. However, add cargo to the roof, and the mileage dropped significantly. With a soft bag up there, I would net about 25. With a well-loaded cargo carrier, the net was 22.

I suspect that if I were to push it at stop lights, etc., the difference between loaded and unloaded would be more pronounced, but what would be the point in that?

ateixeira

RAV4 21/27

That's a tad better, but we should remember Toyota's AWD disengages above 25mph, and that helps both city and highway numbers.

Toyota's automatics also aggressively seek the tallest gear possible, I know because I own one. It's efficient, but it doesn't always leave you in the right gear for good throttle response, so that's the trade-off.

Tiguan is roughly 300 lbs heavier

Why, though? It's smaller inside than the Forester.

Maybe DI is really heavy.

I only noticed a big drop-off in MPG on my old Forester when I was towing. At one point I got something like high teens MPG, while 24-27 was more typical on an empty car.

Thing is, a trailer adds a whole bunch of weight plus an extra axle to drag.

volkov

That's why I find it so strange that the RAV4 and Forester post same or better mileage numbers than the car versions with the same engine aka Matrix and Impreza. One would expect the more frontal area to be a major disadvantage. Given the engines and power outputs are the same in both cases, it has to be the gearing which makes the difference.
There's no question that CVT would make a huge difference as they can be programmed to yield performance when needed and optimize FE when not. Problem in NA is the buying public avoids them like the plague. All it takes is a cursory review of Freestyle or Murano boards to see people who won't consider the vehicle because of the CVT. I'd expect Subie owners to be less cynical, but with SOA seeing more "mainstream" buyers, there could be a consumer reaction.

hammerhead

Trying to access the chat - get a 'no access' page.
Hosts: any clues?

Cheers!
Paul

ladywclass

my problem last week .... guess it's not just those without a 'y' chromosome .... :P

rsholland

http://www.freep.com/article/20090227/BUSINESS01/902270319/1014/BUSINESS01/Honda- - ++Toyota++Subaru+lead+Consumer+Reports+ratings

All Subie models on "Recommended" list. No other car brand can claim that.

Bob

ateixeira

That's good press...they're really on a roll.

xwesx

Well, it was a good theory at the time.

xwesx

A good read.

I have to wonder about Ford, though. It states that their models are visually "boring." I don't see that at all. I actually like the entire Ford lineup in terms of styling. Even their new Flex, which is a bit out there, has a pleasing look to it.

I think Ford is the best of the maintstream auto makers, in terms of style. Toyota is certainly the worst, though they do have a couple of models, like the Sienna, that have a pleasing style. Toyota's new Venza, while it has a beautiful profile, has a hideous front end - much like the Camry. GM vehicles are mostly a close second to Toyota, save for the Corvette.

I cannot disagree with their recommendations regarding Subaru. It is hard to go wrong with a Subaru.

ladywclass

glad to see you did not suggest that Paul might be a Paula!

rsholland

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/03/by-the-numbers-february-2009-wish-it-were-a-l- eap-year-edition/

ateixeira

the redesigned Forester is selling like mad, up 107% last month with 5,978 units sold

That about sums it up.

Hummer is dead, eh? Serious trouble.

The Forester's pace is impressive. It would add up to 78k sales per year, and that's when the economy is in the dumps. If things pick up it could break 100k all by itself.

The update worked, so hopefully Subaru applies similar changes to the Legacy/Outback and then the Tribeca, too. Make them more space efficient, but keep a lid on prices.

rsholland

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/04/geneva-2009-2010-saab-9-3x-ideal-wagon-for-li- - ngonberry-picking/

Very, very nice. It would be a real shame if Saab goes under, as this car looks great. It's certainly the most appealing Saab I've seen to date. Their AWD (called XWD) from what I've read, is excellent.

Bob

xwesx

Indeed, it is a nice-looking car. I pick lingonberries, and I tell you what, I would much rather that car get me to and from the sites than my minivan! :shades:

ateixeira

Looks good, even that color scheme. Matte black cladding would be dent and scratch resistant so it's practical, too.

kyfdx

Previous generation WRX wagon coming down the street towards me, as I waited to turn left.. Made eye contact with the driver, and he waved.. Not an abnormal occurrence in my small community, and I waved back... then tried to figure out who it was, and how I knew them..

Then, it hit me.. He waved to me because I was driving a Subaru!.

I've run into that before with motorcycles, Jeep CJs and BMWs (pre-1990), but never even crossed my mind with a Subaru... guess the WRX makes it more likely to be Subaru-enthusiast driven..

rsholland

It's happened to me before.

Bob

kyfdx

Yeah.. I meant the first time for me.. not ever....

I've only been driving a Subie for a little over 7 months... it just never crossed my mind... I'd guess WRX or STi drivers are a little more congnizant of other Subarus.... I'd be more surprised it it were a Forester owner..

rsholland

True dat.

Bob

lilbluewgn02

It's happened to me quite often here also, and it used to happen many times years ago when I had my 1974 BMW 2002...even driving cross country, i would get beeps or high-beam flashes.

rsholland

http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/03/if-subarus-looking-for-a-loan-wheres-that-le- ave-mitsubishi.html#more

saedave

Link did not work.

rsholland

Try this. AO changed the title, which is probably why it didn't work.

http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/03/subaru-and-mitsubishi-among-japanese-makers-- seeking-government-loans.html

bat1161

Reading that it seems they are trying to cover the losses from their deal with Eclipse Aviation. In todays economy can't really blame them asking for some coverage.

Mark

ateixeira

Well, I found a buyer for my 1993 Miata, as long as it passes inspection it'll probably go by Monday.

Of course as soon as I did my brother expressed interest. Figures.

Any how, I'm wheeling and dealing on a leftover new 2008 Miata with the Power Retractable Hardtop. Sport and Touring models. I've got about 4-5 dealers battling it out, it's actually kinda fun to use e-mail and the internet.

Keep your fingers crossed for me, I may have a new car very soon.

xwesx

That's exciting, AJ. I hope it works out!

rsholland

Sounds exciting juice. Good luck with it, Are you looking at one with a folding hardtop?

Bob

ateixeira

Yes.

I had a lot of 2nd thoughts, but it's a co-worder who offered to go downstairs to the credit union and transfer cash now, no hassles.

Right now I'm aiming for a left over 2008 power retractable hard top. Pricing is in the low 20s for Sport and Touring models. GTs get too pricey for a toy.

I saw some used bargains but they sold before I could get to them. So now I'm looking at new.

rsholland

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=143870

rsholland

So we may see you in a new drop-top—just in time for spring and summer!

Bob

volkov

Sport and Touring also means 5sp versus 6sp doesn't it? Any strong feelings on rowing through 6 speeds in Beltway traffic for the daily commute?

rsholland

Yep. Here's the spec sheet:

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsSpecs&tri- - - - - m=MXR&vehicleCode=MX5&bhcp=1

I'd go for the 6-speed. Highway mileage is 1 mpg better, although cirty mileage is 1 mpg less. Also, it's probably a bit more comfortable at cruising speeds due to a lower cruising rpm. Resale value will be better with the 6-speed. Both take premium gas, right?

Bob

ateixeira

That seems very likely.

I had 9 years to think about what I would add to my Miata, and what I would keep. I came up with 4 major items for the wish list:

* manual transmission (have one now, want to keep this)
* folding hard top
* heated seats
* more space, leg room specifically

I would take a 5 or a 6 speed manual, either is fine. The overdrive in the 5 speed is actually taller, and I test drove a 6 speed and you are simply shifting constantly. There's no need for ratios quite so close, unless you're on a track perhaps.

I did want a hard top. They cost more, and they only arrived in 2007, so that limits used car options.

I had to replace my soft top on my 1993, then replaced it a 2nd time when it was vandalized. My 3rd top was juuuuust starting to show signs of wear - I saw a tiny little crack in the vinyl yesterday, fixed with epoxy. But that means it's brittle and it has maybe 2 years left in it. What a pain.

I just didn't want to go through a top replacement again, 3rd time. That is a pretty strong incentive to get a hard top.

Pay $1000 or so more now, or pay the same amount later for a new soft top (installed). If the hard top doesn't break it will actually be cheaper in the long run.

I do plan to keep this one for a very long time, too.

I kinda wanted heated seats, but only the 2007+ GT models have that. A GT hardtop costs a fortune, $26k or more. Remember I have 2 vehicles, this is just my toy.

Don't ask me why $22k is reasonable but $26k is not. LOL

Compared to mine, this adds a lot of goodies:

4 air bags vs. 1, 170hp vs. 116hp, ABS, TPMS, tilt wheel, height adjustable driver seat, more leg room (all 3 comfort items), rear defrost, keyless entry, steering wheel audio controls, fogs, and of course the power hard top - so it's a coupe and a roadster.

My best quote on that is $21,100.

I could step up to a Touring for $22,200, and get the 6 speed, a 6CD changer, and 17" rims. Thing is - I don't necessarily want lower profile tires for DC streets, and the 6 ratios are sorta busy.

Dunno, I'm sort of torn about that. It actually seems like a decent value for the extra $1100, but it might actually make the car less liveable day-to-day.

What do you folks think?

ateixeira

Good question - see my post, I am concerned about the extra (unnecessary) shifting.

As for MPG, I'm almost all city so the 5 speed will use less gas.

ateixeira

Thanks to Bob's link, the Touring also adds a leather shift knob.

I actually want one, but the aftermarket can address that one easily.

I may even add seat heaters later.

rsholland

Well, if you're going to keep it for a very long time, make sure that you don't short-change yourself in terms of features.

As to 5- vs. 6-speed, hard to tell. My instinct say 6-speed, but you're the one who will be stuck with it (for a very long time), so make sure you're happy. How often would you get into 6th gear during your commute? Isn't that mainly a highway gear?

I think Frank's MB SLK is a 6-speed. He'd be a better person to ask than me.

Bob

kyfdx

I'd guess that around town, you'll still just use 1-4... doubt you'd even notice the extra shifting... If potholes bother you, then the 17" tires would be the bigger issue...

I always like those extras, though...

The best thing about the hardtop is the increased visibility with the top up vs. the ragtop....

ateixeira

Well, yes and no (more features are better).

The Miata is different in a simpler-is-better sort of way. It's hard to explain.

I honestly don't want a CD changer. It will attract thieves and I hardly even use my single CD now.

If I ever get a fancy stereo it would probably be that one that has Garmin Navi built-in. They're about $600-800 now.

Ideally I'd get heated cloth, but that's not available. I did not want black leather in the sun, but black cloth is OK. Tan cloth would be best, but again not available.

I'm usually in 1st-4th gear, but a tall cruising gear is a good thing for noise, but remember the 6th speed is actually shorter than overdrive in the 5 speed.

I prefer the look of the 17" wheels by far but I'm not sure I want the harsh ride.

rsholland

Any chance the dealer would let you take the 6-speed, for an extended test drive? That way you could literally recreate your daily commute. That's the only way to really tell if you like it or not.

Bob

rsholland

What dealers are you cross-shopping?

Bob