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Subaru Crew Cafe

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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It's not water injection, it's sprayed onto the IC for cooling purposes.

    -mike
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    locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    all it really is useful for is after idling for a while, or driving in very low speed conditions. a top-mount air-air intercooler can't help but become and "intercooker" in that environment...

    so then when you finally get moving, you give the spray nozzle a quick shot and (hopefully) let 'er rip on the open road without detonation.

    -Colin
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    ffsteveffsteve Member Posts: 243
    Reading with interest this topic on water sprays. I originally had the same question as fibber, but understand now that the IC spray is on the outside. Interesting Australian article in the link above.

    I can share experiences with carb water injection. My father bought a kit in the mid-70s and installed on the V8 in his '73 Ford Maverick. As this was the period where I was starting to drive, I drove that car a lot after the system was installed. Manufactured by Tetrahedron Associates here in San Diego (what memory!), it operated from a vacuum switch sensor with an adjustable trigger point. When vacuum dropped from application of the gas, a mist was sprayed down the carb throat. Water supply was kept in a soft plastic bag hung on the side of the engine bay. There was also a volume adjustment, controlling the amount of water sprayed when triggered. I remember my father carefully tuning the system to a set of arcane instructions provided by the manufacturer.

    I've since read a number of articles describing the pros and cons of such a system, but in our experience it really did allow the timing to be advanced quite a bit, did improve mileage, and extended the life of the spark plugs to at least 50k miles. Remember, this was on a typical Detroit car of the early 70's. I can't quantify the improvements in mileage, or comment on the condition of the combustion chambers, but when sold at 140k miles it was still running strong. Of course, the water injection system had died many years earlier and had been disconnected. I remember getting about 22-23 mpg, but don't know how this compared with a standard engine setup.

    I wouldn't fool around with such a thing today, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else, but it is an interesting experience to think back on. Most telling is the total lack of adoption by any car manufacturer. Was it ignored it because it was simply not worth the effort and additional cost, or because of the additional attention needed by the driver to keep the reservoir full? With the ignition advanced, it was very apparent when the reservoir emptied - talk about pinging and detonation! As a side note, I just searched for Tetrahedron using Google, and find them still in business manufacturing presses (no sign of any more automotive products).

    Just sharing,
    Steve
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Probably emissions killed it, who knows.

    -juice
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    fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Thanks for validating my memory on this subject! I didn't mention it, but remember that they used a soft pouch water bottle to better survive freezing conditions. You could probably add alcohol as well.

    Another thing we have in common: I too learned to drive on my fathers fairly new '73 Maverick V8 (2 door). Non-powered drum brakes, and all... It was a fast car for its day, but used way too much fuel for its size. It also pinged on regular without a slight timing retard from stock, so it sounds like your water injection may have had a more substantial benefit then you realized.

    Speaking of Automotive Gizmos, here are two more that I used 20+ years ago with good success:

    1) PassMaster - This was a vacuum operated switch that cut out your A/C compressor during hard acceleration. Wide open throttle dropped manifold pressure, which would then switch off the magnetic clutch. It didn't do much for my Mercury Montego V8, but did wonders for my little 66hp Ford Fiesta.

    2) Carter Knock Eliminator - This was an idea years ahead of its time. A piezoelectric detector tuned to 'hear' pre-ignition screwed in place of a manifold bolt. A variable delay circuit was spliced between the coil wire and distributor hall effect sensor (early electronic ignition), or points to retard the timing. It was the only thing that made my '79 Datsun 810 driveable in the summertime.

    Steve
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    ffsteveffsteve Member Posts: 243
    I won't bore the rest here too much, but I too have noticed our similarities on many topics. Almost scary!

    PassMaster, I thought you were making a joke on vehicle emissions at first. But on the subject of switches on AC units, I had the opposite on my little Toyota Tercel. It would switch off at idle, to relieve the load on the engine and perhaps cooling system. It just took a little pressure on the gas to kick in the AC compressor again. A very definite kick, very easily felt. On hot days I would try to balance a little extra gas with my foot still on the brakes trying to keep the compressor running to stay cool (never did have a cooling problem on that car). If put into neutral it was worse, the AC would cycle on and off on a second to two second period. Very annoying.

    The unassisted brakes on the Maverick (we had the 4-door) also were the bane of my wife, who is "challenged" in the height department. She learned to drive in that car, and had a time trying to keep it stopped at intersections. I might be exaggerating a little, but I recall it looked like she needed to press the brake with both feet. She used it for her license examination, the examiner also made a comment that perhaps she should look for a smaller car! But she passed, and we went out to buy the Tercel shortly after that.

    Steve
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    wrxsoon1wrxsoon1 Member Posts: 158
    Great stories guys! Thanks for sharing.

    -Ian
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The subarus and I know my Isuzu definitely does have this on current models. It kicks off the AC compressor under heavy acceleration.

    -mike
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    fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Mike, the guy who invented and marketed it (I contacted him directly at his Florida address somewhere around 1980) later sued several automakers for patent infringement and won. He got a cash settlement, plus royalties on each car sold with it. I imagine the vacuum switch has probably been replaced by a signal from the engine management computer, but the concept remains the same.

    Steve
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    to drive on 74 Maverick / straight 6 (250 cu in). Remember that lingo?

    Greg
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    bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Here's a lengthy discussion on 22B.com:
    http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000004.html
    Some of the UK guys use it.

    Shiv of Vishnu Performance/Sport Compact Car contributor has a few replies on that thread and this is one of his quotes:
    "Simply put, I just don't believe water injection belongs on a properly tuned turbo car."

    -Dennis
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The only place I've seen water injection is @ the Power Plant I used to work at. We installed a water injection system on some of the steam generators to keep down the emissions! These were big units (350MW and 610MW)

    -mike
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    hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Until very recently, I had thought those spray was just to clean the intercooler for better dissipation of heat. You know, rally, dust, mud,... caking the intercooler.

    -Dave
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting, does the WRC car have it?

    -juice
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Check out Autoweek.com for some preview pix, they are building it up as I write this! New models keep popping up and the list gets longer.

    * Chevy Aveo: looks like a competitor for the Aerio XS
    * Lancer face-lift: aye, another huge, gaping grille
    * Forester 2.5XT: black walls, 6 twin spoke alloys
    * Suzuki Forenza: kinda cute sedan
    * Suzuki Verona: who knew these were even coming? Does anyone care? LOL
    * Tundra Double Cab: looks roomy enough for 5
    * Golf Anniversary model: R32 clone I think
    * Volvo S80 AWD: it's a trend

    -juice

    Edit: they fixed the link to the Mercury Monterey, which looks too much like the old Windstar, but seems nice inside, fold flat 3rd row even
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    bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I don't know if Subaru still uses it, but others do:
    http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/rally/rally.html

    -Dennis
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Check this out - the Chevy Aveo will be built in Korea at the GMDAT plant. Hilarious, to compete with the Koreans, they're building them there.

    The Monterey still gets an OHV engine, when will domestics modernize? They're two decades behind now. Instead they just keep tacking on features noone asked for. And the 3rd row isn't split fold.

    That Tundra gets a power rear window, that's pretty cool. It's also 13" longer, which means it'll have a real rear seat. I wonder if families will buy them.

    The 2 new Suzukis look cute, but don't really offer anything new. The Forenza is built at the same plant as that Chevy Aveo (GM owns most of Suzuki I believe). I guess it slots below the Aerio, and the Verona above. The standard I-6 is a good idea, but just 155hp? That's less than the 4 cylinders in the Legacy, Altima, Accord, you name it. Lame. Even priced to compete with 4 bangers it loses out.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz03/b021103.htm
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No way, they're just trying to attract media hype. They'll kill off all their customers!

    -juice
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    cb70cb70 Member Posts: 226
    Sorry for the Nissan question, but you guys are always up to the minute in news, LOL. How's that for sucking up to the Crew?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Haven't seen anything in Autoweek or Edmunds. I kinda doubt it.

    I don't get why Nissan didn't bring that over. The XTerra appeals to a diffferent crowd so there would be no overlap.

    -juice
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    hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    I over heard a conversation regarding test of roof integrity being performed by [I think] NHTSA or IIHS on SUVs when rolled.
    Anyone heard of such a test?

    -Dave
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Don't think so. They are supposed to do a new dynamic roll resistance test.

    The feds require that a car withstand 150% of its own weight on its roof, but trucks are exempt.

    -juice
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    hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Hmmm... then it may be IIHS conducting the test on the side. From the bits I was able to eavesdrop on it sounded like none of the SUVs roof held up.
    Unfortunately, there isn't anything I could find to substantiate what I heard, or discount it. :(

    -Dave
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Only thing I heard was that in some side-impact tests, a few SUVs rolled onto their sides (Rodeo, CR-V). The test wasn't meant to measure roll over likelihood, though.

    -juice
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    subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Here's a link from the Chicago Auto show site that lists all the latest news out of it:
    http://www.prnewswire.com/micro/chiauto%20

    -Brian
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Just got my latest issue of AutoWeek, and in it there was a picture/blurb on a new Studebaker XUV (Xtreme Utility Vehicle), to be built by the Avanti Corporation. It looks just like a Hummer H2. Reportedly it will be shown at Chicago.

    Bob
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    From the Car Connection site:

    AWD ALL THE RAGE
    The all-wheel drive offerings are going to be plentiful in a few years, say auto executives at the show. Toyota, Ford and Mazda are among those planning to add all-wheel-drive options on their sedans, as well as crossovers, by mid-decade. Toyota's U.S. chief Jim Press says the automaker is planning on AWD versions of its Camry as well as Lexus models and possibly others. "It's to offer people who are aging out of the need or want of SUVs the utility they have been used to." Ford's sales and marketing chief Jim O'Connor says the Ford Five Hundred and Mercury Montego sedans will both offer all-wheel-drive versions in addition to the Ford Freestyle crossover based on the same platform. The Five Hundred and Montego, both front-drive, follow the strategy employed by Jaguar with its front-drive X-Type, which was made all-wheel-drive for the U.S. to enhance its performance appeal among Jag enthusiasts and customers. The Five Hundred will be competing against the Chrysler replacements for the Dodge Intrepid and Chrysler Concorde, which are both being made as rear-drive sedans with all-wheel-drive options. O'Connor says he suspects a higher percentage of Mercury Montegos will be sold with AWD than Ford Five Hundreds because Ford buyers are "inherently more price-conscious." Mazda executives, too, said they are looking to offer all-wheel-drive on the Mazda6 sedan.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Here it is, first on the list:

    http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_chicago/index.mv

    Looks like a Hummer.

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=4561

    The next Pathfinder will be full-size, and will be built off the Titan platform. A couple of reports have mentioned that it will have an IRS, like the new Expedition. There is no mention of that here, however. The sketch looks great, IMO.

    It will be introduced at the NY auto show this spring.

    Bob
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    by the Toyota Drake?
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You like that sketch? Looks like something out of the movie "Judge Dredd". Too many styling elements.

    I'm sure the production model will be toned down a lot.

    XTerra and Murano took up the mid-size slot, so I guess they moved the Pathfinder up in size and price. I'd rather see them bring the XTrail though.

    -juice
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Didn't like the way the rear door windows slope down then the rear section is boxed off. Doesn't seem to flow right. IMHO.

    -mike
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Love the styling! And yes, it will be toned down by the time it reaches the showroom. All these type of sketches "exaggerate" styling themes. That's always been the case. Look at any early sketch of a future production vehicle. The sketches are always exaggerated from what the final product ends up being.

    Regardless of what it looks like, I'm more interested in "features," which have yet to be disclosed.

    Bob
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    paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I am with you bob, as long as it performs, I could care less what it looks like. :)

    -mike
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    from the windshield forward, it will be pure Titan. If you look at the sketch, then look at the Titan, you can see the styling exaggeration.

    Unlike Mike, I don't mind the dip in the rear quarter window. I don't think it will create any blind spot, unlike those found on the Murano and FX35/45. That would be my only concern. It "hints" a bit of the Hummer H2 from the "C" pillar to the "D" pillar.

    My only other concern about the dip in the rear quarter window, would be the outward visibility for 3rd-row passengers—assuming there is 3rd-row seating. If those passengers have to lower their heads to look out, then that would not be good. Again, the dip in the sketch is probably exaggerated to some degree, like the rest of the sketch.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True Bob, the Titan looked much better in person. I could do without the huge chrome bumper, but then again I'm not a truck buyer.

    Could it be the 2nd full-size SUV with the IRS, after the Expedition?

    The wife is souring a little on the Expedition, it's funny. Gas prices have shot up, and her best friend, who owns one, has damaged it for the 3rd time while parking (turn signal). Also, she thinks it's way too big for New Orleans, where she just moved.

    Then, on the same day, she watched Motor Week with me and saw the rear diffy on their test car was failing, with Ford hunting for a fix.

    My wife is funny in that she wants to own the same cars her friends have. Her other good friend has an Avalon and for a long time she wanted that, until she found out it offered no manual tranny.

    Guess I should convince her friend to buy a turbo something-or-other from Subaru!

    -juice
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I would think Nissan will offer a body-colored version, if not at startup, shortly thereafter. I'm sure different trim levels will get those kinds of detail changes.

    Bob
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looked gaudy to me. It was a mirror big enough for me to shave!

    -juice
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    hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    Juice: Sounds like she might be a candidate for the TurboForester... hint hint!

    Cheers!
    Paul
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    hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    So what are all of us hopeless romantics doing for Valentine's Day?

    Me, I'm working 'til 0800 tomorrow :( But, I do have the weekend off, so tomorrow night it's off to our favorite italian restaurant, then a play by a local theater group. We didn't get out for New Years, so we're overdue.

    Who's next??

    Cheers!
    Paul
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    rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.autonews.com/column.cms?columnId=53
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    ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    With kids at home, we did, well, nothing. Got her tix to see Ellen DeGeneres' new stand up routine on April 17.

    Since she "came out" maybe she too owns a Forester, LOL.

    -juice
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Well I worked too, at Mick O'shea's. If not we would have cooked at home. Those of usin the restaurant business universally refer to valentine's day as "Amateur night," and rightly so. Lots of folks who don't normally eat out come out of the woodwork, don't know how to tip (it is said), and restaurants are swamped. Thanks anway. I'd rather totally splurge on some great duck breasts or fish, and also on a couple great bottles of wine and STILL come out $50-$75 ahead. We might go out Sunday, weather permitting.
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    nygregnygreg Member Posts: 1,936
    Stayed home too. Better half made a nice dinner. Of course, it isn't very romantic with 3 young children. Considering we have 3 daughters I wind up having 4 Valentines!

    Greg
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    hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    Loosh... new thread... "Inconsiderate Diners"?

    Dad taught me to tip well... has paid off over the years. I'm no pro at dining out, what with 3 young'uns at home, but we sure do enjoy it when we get the chance. My sis & her late husband were absolute dining-out pro's... and living in San Francisco made that particularly rewarding.

    Cheers!
    Paul
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    hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    We have a couple of restaurants we use on a regular basis, and then one we use on special occasions like Wedding anniversarys and birthdays.

     I try to take the bride out at least once a week, we both enjoy that.

      Cheers Pat.
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    lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Still catching up on all the posts - with 16-24" of snow coming I should have some time.

    The Studebaker SUV looks suspiciously like a Hummer H2 which, like most of the original Studebakers through 1963, is built in South Bend, IN. I wonder if it isn't somehow based on the H2.

    Visiting the Avanti website it looks like Avanti Motors is now also license-building Beck Listers and 904s.

    I wonder who they have in mind for their target market. Much as I like my car, I'm hard pressed to find anyone under 40 who remembers the Studebaker marque. Those who do recall them know them as mid-market family cars, econocars and toward the end, high-performance cars. They did produce light- and medium-duty trucks as well as US Postal Service vans, but those were hardly luxury SUVs.

    Ed
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    ladywclassladywclass Member Posts: 1,713
    The H2 is built in Mishawaka (which abuts the city limits of South Bend)
    I work on either side of the AM General Plant in elementary schools....
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    lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    it is just the volume of very occasional diners, combined with the overall volume, that makes it a losing proposition for the serious diner. So the menu here at home today, in lieu of going out (shopping completed before the storm):

    Bollinger NV Champagne (half bottle)

    Broiled home made crab cakes, served with lemon butter emulsion (Chateau d'Orschwihr Riesling Rangen Grand Cru 1996)

    Roastd tenderloin of venison with dried cherry port reduction, Lucien's signature roasted sweet potato frites (Vieux Telegraphe Chateauneuf-du-Pape 1997-corked. Replacement- Domaine Cayron Gigondas 1997)

    Selection of Kirschmeyr handmade chocolates (Weinlaubenhof Kracher Cuvee Beerenauslese 2001)

    ...and lots of leftovers for tomorrow, plus belgian endive salad, pate, and goat's cheese for the rest of that Riesling! Snow, schmow..... :-)) I'll need the fuel to power my shovelling...
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