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Honda Civic Hybrid

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Comments

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Sounds like those tranny flush services at the regular car shops would be good for that...I doubt a dealer would do that without using one of those machines that the AAMCO and Goodyear shops use.....
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,798
    Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30
    SAE Grade 0W-30
    Viscosity, ASTM D 445
    cSt @ 40ºC 56
    cSt @ 100ºC 10.3
    Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 175
    Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.2
    HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150ºC ASTM D 4683 2.99
    Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -54
    Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 234
    Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.851

    Mobil 1 0W-20
     
    SAE Grade 0W-20
    Viscosity, ASTM D 445
    cSt @ 40º C 43
    cSt @ 100º C 8.4
    Viscosity Index, ASTM D 2270 165
    Sulfated Ash, wt%, ASTM D 874 1.28
    HTHS Viscosity, mPa·s @ 150º C ASTM D 4683 2.61
    Pour Point, ºC, ASTM D 97 -57
    Flash Point, ºC, ASTM D 92 232
    Density @15º C kg/l, ASTM D 4052 0.855

    The differences are almost negligible, but I still use 0W-20. Exxon does not list viscosity at 0C, but if you look at difference in viscosity for 0W-30 and 0W-20 from 40C to 100C. I can imagine that 0W-30 is more viscous at sub freezing conditions. You can see that by the lower pouring point of 0W-20 vs. 0W-30.

    But, all in all, any synth is better than dyno oil.
  • mautomauto Posts: 75
    Just some advice about calculating fuel economy using the fill-up method.

    The 7th gen Civic's fuel tank is shaped such that it is highly variable as to when you have actually filled the tank. I know this because on occasion I've put more gas in my Civic than the 13.2 Gal capacity and driven for 50 more miles before the guage moves off "F". Sometimes I know the tank isn't quite full despite the pump's auto shut off kicking in. You shouldn't manually fill the tank once the pump shuts off to avoid draining into the emissions system. Why is this importatnt to know? Because when you only drive 100 miles and then refill, your mpg could be way off depending on when the pump shuts off.

    Solution:

    Use at least 10 tankfuls of gas returning to the exact same pump every time. Calculate your mpg each time and average all 10 readings to arrive at a reasonably accurate number.

    It's possible to fill-up, drive 50 miles, fill-up again and the pump shuts off after only half a gallon added (pump shut-off calibrations differ at different pumps) and calculate your mpg to be 100. Of couse 100 mpg is impossible.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Most of those variances are mis-calibrated gas pumps. 13.2 tanks are 13.2 tanks, regardless of tank "shape."

    I've owned 12 cars in the last 25 years, and I have only once ever put more fuel than the tank was rated for, and that was only 0.1 more.....
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Larsb:

    ___I have owned 12 vehicles in the last 10 years and all have been able to be filled beyond specified capacity. Currently, the Corolla will hold > 15, the Insight > 14, and the MDX > 22.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Wayne, so you are TOPPING OFF your tanks? You know that is a naughty thing to do....:)

    I know for sure that the following cars did not hold more than their rated tank capacities, because in these cars I *HAVE* topped them off and tried to shove every ounce of gas I could in them before learning the evils of topping:

    2001 Avalanche
    2000 Tacoma
    1997 Suburban
    1998 CR-V
    1996 Camry
    1994 Maxima
    1993 Q45
    1992 Cressida
    1990 Cressida
    1987 Maxima
    1984 Maxima

    My 12th car is the 2004 HCH, which I have not been able to put more than 12.5 in so far.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Larsb:

    Wayne, so you are TOPPING OFF your tanks? You know that is a naughty thing to do....:)

    ___Yes, I top off all my tanks and have been doing so for over 25 years. I have never been scolded for doing anything naughty in regards to fuel fillups however ;-) With that, I have probably saved a few hundred gallons of fuel over the last 800,000 miles by not having to drive to the gas station and back nearly as often.

    ___Your evils are mistaken …

    ___I cannot speak of the entire list of automobiles you posted but your HCH is either a ULEV or PZEV. If it is a ULEV, you most certainly can fill it up with more then 12.5 gallons. What you are probably not taking into account is that you never drive any of them to low enough fuel to place the rated capacity of the tank in them.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Wayne, I stopped topping after doing a little research on the subject - check it out yourself and rid yourself of such an environmentally nasty habit which can also damage your catalytic converter.....even the EPA warns against it....

    Yes, my HCH is a SULEV with a 13.2 gallon tank. I have yet to trust the gauge enough to drive it emptier....I will over time do so, however.
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Larsb:

    ___First off, if your HCH is a SULEV, it is the PZEV version. That being said, you only have a 11.9 gallon capacity tank. With that and the fact you have placed 12.5 gallons in it leads me to the conclusion that you have already surpassed the capacity of your HCH’s tank. The ULEV HCH on the other hand is a 13.2 gallon capacity tank.

    ___In regards to topping off, did you really think I haven’t read at least 100 more articles then the ones you have posted? How many times have I had problems? 0 in 800,000 miles. I don’t dump fuel all over the side of my car either as it is to precious a commodity to do so. With that, guess how many times your drive to the station and pumping gas in poor climate has caused you to wish you weren’t sitting at the pump filling your tank? How many more trips to the gas station and back have you wasted fuel for no apparent reason anyway? You may as well just pour fuel out on the pavement and light it off each time you don’t approach the actual range of your automobile less .2 to .4 gallons as it is such a waste to drive to the station and back needlessly which is what so many people do.

    ___I get the same stuff from those that think 50 #’s in your tires is a bad practice as well. You know, when burst pressures are closer to 125 – 150 #’s? Oh well, let us all close our eyes and keep wasting a precious commodity simply because it is the right thing to do. Blessed are those that don’t have a clue as to what there present automobiles are truly capable of :-(
     
    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • mautomauto Posts: 75
    Um, I think I started this whole fuel capacity debate so let me add this:

    When Honda (and others) say the Civic tank is 13.2 Gal, they probably don't mean that it's 13.2 if you fill it all the way up the fuel filler pipe until it pours out the hole. It's probably somewhere below that quantity. Therefore it seems that you can always squeeze more in (though you shouldn't).

    My original message had more to do with pump shut-off variances which directly affect MPG calculations. I've read numerous accounts of people getting 35mpg on one tank and then, miraculously, 50mpg on the next. This is not because the car found some new untapped efficiency, but because the 50mpg reading was calculated by a not quite refil of the tank - probably the pump shut off early and the driver thought, hey, 50 mpg!
  • The Department of Energy completed a million miles of hybrid testing and found that the four Honda Civic Hybrids they were running averaged 38.0 mpg over a collective 284,000 miles. Six Honda Insights averaged 46 mpg over 347,000 miles, while six first-generation 2002-2003 Prius sedans averaged 41.1 mpg over 380,000 miles. A single 2004 Prius driven 16,000 miles was returning 44.6 mpg. The testing program is managed by the Idaho National Engineering and Environmental Laboratory, so it's credible.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote-"With that, guess how many times your drive to the station and pumping gas in poor climate has caused you to wish you weren’t sitting at the pump filling your tank?"-end quote

    Firstly, regardless of if you drive to the pump every single day, you are not driving less or more than if you drive to the pump once a month, because you can only get mileage out of the gas in your tank no matter where or from you are driving. In other words, you can't drive more or less miles on more or less gas regardless. No matter when you fill your tank, 700 miles is 700 miles. If 8 of those miles was driving back and forth to the gas station, it matters not - 8 miles driven is 8 miles driven whether or not you are in Kalamazoo or Moscow.

    If it is YOUR CHOICE to drive fewer times to the gas station and top off, just don't be under the assumption that you are immune to the harmful effects of topping off, because you certainly are NOT.

    So it does not matter one whittle whether you fill your tank 18 times a year or 48 times - you still drive the same amount of miles and use the fuel you use before you need gas - filling up more or less often does not "cost" more gas - but what it DOES DO, if you top off, is all the harmful things that you know topping off can do. Good for you that none of your cars have suffered damage - but it's not an Urban Myth that such damage can and does occur. So harming the environment and your car by topping off does not make sense no matter how you slice it, or even even if you have driven 8
    MILLION miles.

    And as far as my tank capacity, I will check to see for sure what version of the car I have, but I'm darn near sure my tank is 13.2 gallons. And I know full well tank capacities are a "manufacturer's estimate" and that there are variations. But I can assure you there is no way I put 12.5 gallons into a tank rated for 11.9.....I'll get confirmation of my tank capacity later today, but my owner's manual says 13.2......
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "** 2004 Civic Hybrid models distributed in California, New York, Vermont, Maine and Massachusetts meet Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV) standards."

    I bought mine in Arizona. The AT-PZEV model is 11.9 capacity, ULEV is 13.2
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,798
    Solution:

    Use at least 10 tankfuls of gas returning to the exact same pump every time. Calculate your mpg each time and average all 10 readings to arrive at a reasonably accurate number.

    It's possible to fill-up, drive 50 miles, fill-up again and the pump shuts off after only half a gallon added (pump shut-off calibrations differ at different pumps) and calculate your mpg to be 100. Of couse 100 mpg is impossible.


    I agree about filling up at the same pump every time, and as close as possible to "empty" but what about temperature? Fuel is measured in volume and not mass. If you fill up in the early morning when temperature is 50°F (10°C or 296°K not sure on the conversion) and then then next time you fill up at 4 pm when temperature is 80°F (26.7°C or 312.7°K) the volume will be different.­
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    You are absolutely correct - by filling up in cooler weather you do yourself a favor....
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    I agree about filling up at the same pump every time, and as close as possible to "empty"

    I disagree with letting your tank get below 1/4 full. There is water and sediment that collects in the bottom of a gas tank and you don't want to pump that into your filter & injectors. Cutting yourself to the very last gallon to set some kind of worthless record is foolish. What happens if you are stuck in a snowstorm and require that fuel to keep warm. It is a false economy to run the tank down to the last little bit.
  • blueiedgodblueiedgod Posts: 2,798
    There is water and sediment that collects in the bottom of a gas tank and you don't want to pump that into your filter & injectors.

    You are absolutley correct, water is havier than gasoline and will be at the bottom of the tank regardless if it is empty or not And whether you like it or not, the fuel pick up is at the lowest point of your fuel tank.

    What happens if you are stuck in a snowstorm and require that fuel to keep warm
    No one said to do those experiments in blizzard. Snow, slush and other wintry road conditions will decrease your mileage anyway due to increased resistance.
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    It seems to me that in order to get the most accurate MPG reading one would need to:

    1. Do an analysis on the fuel to ensure standard quality.
    2. Begin by using compressed air or similar to blow the remaining fuel from the lines and injector. How much left over fuel can these contain? A pint or so?
    3. Measure a single gallon of fuel using a newly calibrated meter or container (Not the gas pump) before dispensing into the tank.
    4. Drive until out of fuel.

    Other than that how can we get a true MPG reading with so many variables?

    I'm not sure how practical that would be.
    I have 2 main stations where I get fuel from.

    I just pull up and fill until it clicks off and take the readings. Is that too practical?
    Folks have been doing that since the gravity gas pumps were replaced in the 1930's - 40's?
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    As these previous posts would indicate, it seems that at best, trying to pinpoint actual MPG is an Art rather than a Science, if not an exercise in futility.

    I think anytime you are within 3-5 MPG of reality you are close enough.......
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    As an owner of a 2004 HCH with Bridgestone B381 tires, I can advise other owners that those particular tires might be hard to get in an emergency.

    I unavoidably ran over a nailed board this morning, ruining my two passenger side tires, and no one in the Greater Phoenix metro area who deals with Showcase Honda has my size in stock.

    They were able to find 185/65-14 tires so we are going with two of them until they can get the correct size......(what a pain)
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    B381s are 185/65-14 aren't they ? http://www.roadwaywholesaletire.com/B381-SPECS.htm
    So when you say going with two 185/65-14s till they get the correct size whats that mean, does the HCH call for a special LRR tire ? Even if so I would be inclined to put the two new tires on the rear and be done with it (unless that would create warranty or handling problems)
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    B381 come in various sizes.

    The HCH does not "call for" a LRR tire, but the OEM tires for the 2004 HCH are the B381 185/70-14s.

    And yes, the two new tires are on the rear and are going to STAY - they are not going to get the right size later.

    So I've got two 185/70-14s on the front and two 185/65-14s on the back.......Odd, huh? LOL
  • rfruthrfruth Posts: 630
    As you know not much diff between 70 s & 65 s, its a shame to have a cock eyed 2004 but I have never had a level car, shocks springs or tires, something is always different.
  • ep_ep_ Posts: 6
    Hi all, to make a long story short, I am getting an offer I can't say no to, to buy a Civic hybrid. Though I look forward to advancing the cause of this technology and saving fuel, I am prone to bouts of very spirited driving. So I was wondering,

    1. Whats quicker, CVT or the 5-speed?
    2. Has anyone tried to upgrade the stock air filter for a drop-in K&N or even an AEM intake?
    3. Anyone considered swapping the exhaust system for something more efficient (NOT loud and obnoxious but freer flowing)
    4. Weight of the stock 14" rims?
    5. Is the suspension the same as other Civic Sedans? I will be considering upgrading to KYB GR2s and/or Eibach Pro-kit springs to tighten up the handling and body roll with only an imperceptible change in ride height. However, since it weighs more, Im not sure the spring rates, dampening, etc would match up.

    Has anyone considered anything like this? I love the car from the few test drives I have been on, but once in awhile I would like a little more oomph and sharper handling from the car, for both performance and safety.

    Thanks,
    Pat
  • mautomauto Posts: 75
    Yes, unfortunately, the HCH has the same flabby suspension as all other Civics (except Si).

    Your savings in fuel costs will instantly be gone when you pay for the upgrades.

    I wouldn't upgrade anything regarding engine performance, since the engine is pretty much at its peak already and any change to the hybrid system, even a different air filter, may throw things out of tune.

    It seems what you are looking for is a reasonably fuel efficient car that has excellent handling and good power. The Mazda 3 fits that profile and you don't have to upgrade anything to get it.
  • 1. 5-speed is faster by abpout 1 second 0-60.
    2. I picked up a web sight on Insight and several have upgrade to more efficient air cleaner. Free improvement!
    3. Probably won't help that much
    4. There are lighter rims, which would improve mielage.
    5. Your idea of suspension is a good improvement. However even the Civic line has much better suspension than some other cars, example Prius, Corolla.

    Good luck!.

    MidCow
  • ep_ep_ Posts: 6
    Thanks Mauto and MidCow, I am getting an awesome incentive to buy this car which will more than offset the price of these upgrades. The Saab 9-3 that I was going for before I looked at the HCH would probably get these, if not more.

    Anyways, I agree that the exhaust upgrade will yield negligible results. I still may give it a try though, if I can find a place that knows what they are doing. Does anyone know if its the same catback exhaust system as an EX or DX/LX? I'll probably go with lightening the unsprung weight with the lighter rims and upgrading the suspension. Whats that website with the free air cleaner upgrade?

    Thanks for the info guys.

    Pat
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    Hello EP:
    Please allow my $.02 on this:
    I’ve driven my 04 HCH since last February and can say that it handles quite well, especially in the hard turns thanks for the double wishbone rear suspension.

    However, if you are looking primarily for a fast, sporty car then you would do much better with one of the other Civics, as they can be lower initial cost.

    The HCH can be driven in fast, sporty way but if you do that you will not get good MPG results. (No matter what you drive)
    My own boring story:
    I drove a ’94 Dodge Spirit for 10 years, almost exclusively 80-95MPH….floor it and get around the next slowpokes in the Left lanes. Does it sound familiar? Consuming so much fuel (~16MPG) a couple of times I tried to drive for better mileage but didn’t know what I was doing and just drove slowly. Such a terrible bore-- I soon resorted back to my old ways.
    I bought my HCH as a replacement and soon got hooked into the sport of hyper mileage. I learned from the seasoned Insight drivers how to get the best efficiency and still drive around the posted speed limits.
    Gone was the day of my daily, sometimes dangerous traffic swerving habit.

    Learning to drive for efficiency isn’t just going slow, there are so many constantly changing variables and things to do that the drive is far from boring.
    My tanks have averaged around 60MPG since last April.
    I usually get just under 700 miles from around 11 gallons of gas.
    My wife drives it as a “normal” person and gets around EPA rating of 48.
    The database over at greenhybrid dot com shows an average of the same- as reported by many owners.

    I see a lot of parallels with the hybrids and the diet food industry.
    Someone can buy expensive diet food and neglect everything else about loosing weight. They might be disappointed and blame the food for poor results.
    Others buy the food and follow other suggestions…with wonderful results.
    Similarly,
    Some people buy hybrid cars expecting the vehicle to do it all. Drive an HCH hard and get around 35MPG…..pretty poor for that expensive car.
    On the other hand drive normally as 80% people do and get good results.
    Of course one could choose as I do for max efficiency and get fantastic MPG.

    Please let me also mention that driving conditions can also play a major part, as many people report around 40MPG going stop light to stop light in very heavy traffic….but I guess even 40MPG in that situation is pretty good for any car.

    Anyway if your main requirement is the need for a fast, sporty car then you might consider a different vehicle and save some money.

    Am I making any sense?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,432
    That makes a lot of sense. If you want a performance car get one. If you want a performance hybrid the Accord HAH will be out in December.
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