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Comments
When I bought my CVT based HCH in Jan '04 I paid about $18.5K for it.
A loaded nice EX (Which comes with less safety & pleasure equipment) went for about $1K less.
The actual cash portion of my tax deduction came to about $600.
I've averaged better than 60MPG, been doing 65-68MPG all summer with an all time record tank of 69.2MPG and 941 miles to a single tank.
With gas @ +3.00/G which would have given me better savings? A 45MPG EX or a 68MPG HCH? How much would I have saved buying an EX, given they would be driven over 300K miles?
(You might rightly say that 66-68MPG tanks isn't typical for an HCH, but google 2004 Civic EX MPG and you'll find 45 in an EX isn't typical either-Most get mid 30's....but I get what I get in my CVT based HCH)
Because it's a hybrid many of people ask me questions about it, usually at the pump. That's nice, and out of 17 past vehicles this hands down is the most fun to drive. Personally I grow tired of the same car after about 6 months but after almost 2 years I still enjoy each and every ride.
Another point is that If I'd have bought "just another car" like an EX I'd still be driving with all my old bad habits and likely get mid 20's MPG. An extremely aggressive 85-90MPH swerving, tailgating method I only did about 16MPG in my old '94 Dodge 4 cyl. After all, a car just "gets what it gets" and there's not much you can do about it.....and besides you just get there faster so it all evens out in the end....right?
My HCH has very much drastically changed my thinking and have been a marvelous teacher that we've also raised our Grand Caravan MPG by up to 50%!
Call it a perk that you can't get with a regular Civic or Corolla.....
Honda really does these cars right....and still delivers at a reasonable price.
http://www.carlist.com/newcars/2006/ncr978.html
Certainly not USA sales. Honda is only setting a sales goal of 28,000 2006 Civic hybrids for the USA in the first year. Toyota is on pace to sell about 150,000 Priuses in 2005, and they hope to jack that up quite a bit in 2006.
Maybe in real-world MPG the new Civic can rival the Prius. Yet to be seen, but it is likely to hold it's own if not surpass the Prius.
But not in sales, at least not until Honda tries to MAKE it a sales competition.
Hmmmm, That means about 70k over the next 3 months. They have sold 80k through September. I don't think they will make your goal for them this year. Probably not next year either.
"2005 Numbers, So Far
154,563 hybrid vehicles were sold during the first nine months of 2005. The Toyota Prius accounted for the greatest amount of sales: 81,222 units—more than double of Honda's combined sales of 35,462 for its three hybrids. The Escape Hybrid has sold 11,943 thru September."
That means Toyota has sold 107,158 thru the first 9 months, on pace for 142,877 for the year. My guess is that Oct-Dec will be strong and Toyota will hit it's 150,000 number.
"The Prius was the world's first hybrid car when it was introduced in 1997. Prius sales are up more than 130 percent so far this year and will top 100,000 sales in 2005. Toyota recently established a goal of selling more than 1 million hybrids a year globally early in the next decade, about 600,000 annually in the U.S. Additionally, plans have been announced for a hybrid version of the Camry, the best-selling car in America. More than 10 hybrids are currently under development globally."
I don't catch you very often. I knew you had the right stuff hidden somewhere. What would you do without me to keep you honest?
Confirm this for me- you don't get to knock $2,000 off the tax you pay, just $2,000 off your taxable income. So you save whatever your tax rate is on $2,000. That's why you're saying your actual deduction saved you $600, right?
I'm anxious to see a road test of the new Hybrid. I have no doubt they'll sell every one they build and could probably sell even more. Perhaps they'll up production in 2007.
Hybrids like my CIVIC save a lot more than gas. Oil changes are 10K miles, brakes last forever since it used regeneration most of the time.
You can abuse it and get not so good mileage but if you had a gauge in your current regular car you'd see how bad it really could be.
It's the driver that is the most important part of any vehicle.
jim
If that will be the case, than maybe we should all just go over to the Prius and just pay MSRP, which will be lower than the Civic Hybrid, if the dealer marks them up higher than the Prius
Hybrid Vehicle Guide
http://www.automedia.com/article.aspx?articleID=dsm20041001hg&page=1
Ford Escape Hybrid
http://www.automedia.com/article.aspx?articleID=rts20041101eh&page=1
Hybrid Innovations
http://www.automedia.com/article.aspx?articleID=rts20041101eh&page=1
Honda Accord Hybrid:
http://www.automedia.com/article.aspx?articleID=rts20050201ah&page=1
Pretty doubtful that will happen.
Amazing that any dealer would cheap sell a car people are clamoring for ?!
Oh, wait, I just looked it up. Its actually going DOWN to $500 next year.
So what $2100 are you referring to?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Could make a strong argument for someone on the fence.
Only source I found so far, as I indicated above, tells me its just a $500 deduction in '06.
EDIT: never mind. i found it. i removed "deduction" from my search and came up with the article here:
http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/hybridtaxcredit.htm
Interesting stuff.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Has anyone been able to actually secure and pay for a 06 model yet? :confuse:
Not at all true, it is based on calendar quarter years, with the 60K number as a part of the equation. I suggest you read the forum about tax credits to get the full info, I'm tired of re-posting the information.
Basically, all hybrid purchasers through Jun 30, 2006 will definitely get the full credit. The full credit may go longer, but will not be shorter than 6 months.
I feel the 2003 HCH is a great commuter car as well. In my normal
commute, even driving around 70-80 mph, I've been able to maintain a
lifetime average over 104,000 miles of 44 mpg.
Higher mileage HCH, still pluggin away doing it's job. Beautiful, man, just Beautiful !! :shades:
The gas engine is also a PZEV (partial zero emissions vehicle), so it's really not much worse for the environment that the HCH. Acceleration will also be peppier in the LX/EX than the Hybrid.
The clincher for me NOT buying a Civic Hybird is the lack of manual transmisson. I suppose Honda thinks they've developed an automatic above and beyond what any manual driver could achieve. But, as always with automatics in small cars, you have to deal with slower acceleration.
Some people just like the manual transmission better than a CVT for what ever reasons, and again nothing wrong with that.
I think Honda going CVT only with the HCH is a mistake because it limits choices.
Acceleration?
You won't find high MPG numbers with fast acceleration on either types and both are about equal 0-60. When was the last time I personally floored it?.......hmmm.....I think last year some time.
If one's driving habits require frequent 0-60 full throttle acceleration often, then they'll be sorely disappointed in MPG....but then I guess by any vehicle in that situation.
As far as acceleration, I don't floor it a lot either, but I do like to have a little power on hand when I need it. It's particulary useful when driving on the insane interstates here in Atlanta. MPG does suffer with agressive driving, but that's the great thing about a manual transmission- you can get better acceleration than the automatic without hurting MPG much.
The HCH is a 5-passenger compact car with very good safety ratings, and above all, at it's heart it is a HONDA CIVIC which is one of the most reliable and best selling compact cars on the road. Throw in the emissions advantage, and add in the exciting new 2006 HCH, and we are talking two completely different vehicles.
There were other sub-compacts in the last 25 years which would achieve 44 MPG also, but none of them with the refinement, bulletproof relability record, and general solidness of the Honda Civic.
Of course any vehicle which is less complex faces "fewer potential problems" but we are fast approaching an age where EVERY VEHICLE is super complicated, with multiple computers and thousands of components, any of which can and will break over time.
If we all said, "Oh no, I'm waiting until there are 1 million of those sold before I try one," then we would all be driving Model T Fords !!! :shades:
Just thought I'd put it in perspective to anyone who might have misunderstood.
You can confirm this at any of the 1,760,000 google hits for the "hybrid tax credit" for 2005, signed by President Bush himself on August 8th. Or you can read the very good summary (which happens to have a curiously misnamed URL) at:
http://www.hybridcars.com/tax-deductions.html
Ironic that they have the word "deductions" in the name of the URL, even though it is a credit :-) So one final time, it is not a deduction, it is a credit, as in you get the full amount back from the government, not a percentage. The amount you get varies by car, and for the HCH models it appears to be around $2000.
The tax break you can obtain for 2006 taxes (for a hybrid purchased in 2006) is a tax credit.
So yep, if you wait till Jan 1 then you can get a big tax break for buying a hybrid.
You say, "If you wait till Jan 1..." I read that the law says to the effect of "for vehicles placed in service on or after Jan 1" At this point I take that to mean I could order the vehicle before that but not take delivery till Jan 1, then I'd be OK for the credit. I'm trying to work this angle because I want to bargain for the best deal at the lowest point in the supply/demand cycle. Low on demand and high on supply, that is. At this point I figure that the initial '06 civic hybrid buyers who have been waiting in the winds for the new release will have done their buying by Mid Nov. And the tax credit buyers for Jan 1 won't be kicking in until mid Dec, if not Jan. So the window of low demand should be between mid Nov and mid Dec. I don't know how the average car dealership works. Hopefully they will be motivated to rack up some pre-orders late in the year to show on their record a sale for '05, but I won't take delivery till '06. Anyone guess what a best price might look like in these kind of market conditions--maybe 6-700 over invoice? I saw one post on Edmunds where they claimed got a deal of 500 over. Hard to believe. A dealer told me today he sold his first '06 Hybrid for over MSRP yesterday.
Your point is well taken that the 2005 Civic Hybird is far from the 1980 diesel Rabbit. But so is a 2005 diesel Golf. The difference between automotive development up to now and the entrance of hybrids is that up to now it has been evolutionary, and hybrids are revolutionary. That is, they represent a very complex change in the fundamental method of propelling an automobile. This involves countless new challenges in making it all work properly, all presenting at once. The fact that Toyota, which certainly produces one of the most bulletproof line of vehicles known to man, produced a hybrid that may lose engine power suddenly while traveling at freeway speed is an example. I certainly am not trying to dissuade anyone from buying a hybrid. But I think that it should be recognized that not everyone feels comfortable as an early adopter. I feel that they should have an option to employ a better tested technology to obtain the desired lower fuel consumption.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
The Honda IMA system is far less complicated than the Toyota HSD system. Toyota's problems are not with HARDWARE complexity but rather with SOFTWARE execution. And as any of us know who use computers, it sometimes takes a few patches before software works as intended, but usually it does.
Once Toyota has applied the software patch to the Priuses which were stalling, the problem goes away.
In the Honda system, the IMA hybrid component is just an ASSIST to the engine, and really involves very few components and less complicated software.
And sure, not everyone feels assured being an early adopter. But I think the days of being an "early adopter" of Hybrids is over now. 1997 Priuses, 1999 Insights, that was early. But some of that was almost 8-9 years ago, and together Toyota and Honda have almost 600,000 Hybrids on the roads worldwide. That's literally millions of road tested miles under their belts.
And remember - the Hybrid system is just a "stepping stone" to what we hope will be affordable and cleanly produced Hydrogen propulsion systems in 10-20 years. If there is still a "new" Gas/Electric Hybrid for sale in 2025 I would be SHOCKED and dismayed.
But for now, until "clean diesel" is completely entrenched into the USA distribution systems, and diesels get over their awful reputation among USA drivers (and become legal to sell new in all 50 states) then Hybrids are the best we got, and they should be promoted.
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/E-HONDA-CivicHybrid-06.htm
I have been absolutely thrilled with my car! I'm 25 and it's the first new car I've had, and I don't think I'll ever own a gas-powered car again. I'm constantly amazed at how interested everyone--young and old--is with the car and technology.
I had it done on my 2004 HCH manual tranny. No noticeable difference in MPG or performance or battery charge level.
Way to go on your deal! Was yours with or w/o navi? Would that make a difference in just how low a dealer was willing to go? Do you think there's anything special about the market in OK Okalhoma over the Puget Sound, WA that would make them cheaper? ( I know this isn't on the buying experience board--but it seems to be the hot issue now)
It might be a good idea to take your HCH in to the dealer for that ECM service with a VIRTUALLY EMPTY gas tank. The reason is that they have to idle the car for up to 20 minutes during the service, and if you are counting MPG, that will put a huge hit on your MPG figure. I left it with a 71 MPG tank and got it back with about a 24 MPG tank.
Let them put their own gas in the car for the idling period, save yourself some gas money !!
Here is a chart which sort of indicates the situations in which the HCH-2 can be propelled using electric motor only:
http://hondanews.com/CatID2013?mid=2005083041801&mime=asc
"The Civic Hybrid uses a 3-Stage i-VTEC valve control system that provides normal valve timing, high output valve timing and cylinder idling functions to the benefit of low fuel consumption, high output and greater electrical regeneration capabilities. The previous generation system in the 2005 Civic Hybrid uses 2-stage VTEC that provides normal valve timing and 3-cylinder idling. The 3-stage system adds high output valve timing and 4-cylinder idling. The high output valve timing contributes to the engines increase in output of 9 percent, while the added cylinder deactivation reduces pumping losses by 66 percent to help improve electrical regeneration capability by 1.7 times.
The Civic Hybrid's single overhead camshaft (SOHC) cylinder head uses a compact chain drive and a compact, low friction VTEC system. It uses a common rocker shaft for both the intake and exhaust rocker arms. Placing all the rocker arms on one shaft eliminates the need for a second rocker-arm shaft, so the valve mechanism can be lighter and more compact. To reduce friction, the rocker arms have rollers built-in.
The compact valvetrain allows for a desirable narrow angle (30-degrees) between the intake and exhaust valves, which helps supply a more powerful direct charge into the cylinder chamber.
The narrow angle valvetrain also allows for a more compact combustion chamber. The intake ports create a swirl effect in the cylinder chamber that promote a well balanced and even air fuel mixture as it enters the engine. This optimizes the air fuel mixture for a cleaner, more efficient combustion.
The new VCM system is an advanced form of the three-cylinder Cylinder Idling System used on the previous generation. VCM allows the regenerative braking system to reclaim as much energy as possible during deceleration, while also allowing the electric motor to propel the vehicle in certain steady state cruising situations.
Since the electric motor, which also acts as an electric generator, is attached directly to the crankshaft of the engine, the engine needs to provide as little resistance as possible during deceleration to allow the generator to produce high levels of electricity and charge the batteries. In a traditional engine, the pumping action of the cylinders will actually provide a moderate amount of resistance, or "engine braking," during deceleration. VCM virtually eliminates that effect."
How can you put a price on cleaner air and auto stop so you don't waste gas at a light or traffic jam.
Jim jstack6@juno.com
Is it true you only need to get an oil change every 10,000 miles and not every 3,000 miles like a regular car?
Sylvia, "Hybrid Tips: Optimizing mileage" #1, 29 Jun 2004 1:36 pm
As far as the oil changes, YES the Honda Civic hybrid in the "normal" service routine is recommended to be changed at 10,000 miles. In the "severe" service schedule it is 5,000 miles.
But really, that's no advantage for a hybrid, because now Mobil 1 has a Synthetic oil that is rated for 15,000 mile oil changes which can be used in ANY car. I'm using that oil in my honda civic hybrid and I went 9,000 miles the first change and will probably go 12,000 to 15,000 miles this time.
A new car, an owner who has never owned a Hybrid before, getting 55-58 MPG. Amazing technology !!!
Looks like the 2006 HCH is headed for great numbers !!!
Which grade Mobil 1 do you use?
The required 0-20 W or the 5-20 W.I thought Mobil stopped the production of the 0-20W oil. How's the car running?
Chris