Nah, you are probably talking to someone who remembers horror stories about the 80-81 308si cars, that had some bad ring problems.
I think the 328 is the best of that era of Ferraris and 40K isn't too bad.
You have to figure at least $1 a mile to drive this car, so if $3,000 a year for maintenance makes you swallow hard, then don't do it, because that's what it will cost.
I also agree I'd go for the car that is the most original and with the best service records. That repaint sounds awfully unusual, and plenty of Ferraris get "smacked" without ever appearing on CARFAX. Carfax only uses public records of totals or in most cases (not all) cars with accident reports. So if the car was say dented to the tune of $15,000, and no accident report was filed, then the car will not appear on CARFAX.
Thanks both for the quick responses. I'm going to drive one of the cars (the one that was not repainted) on Saturday. It's probably too much to expect CARFAX to be all-knowing - I can see how someone would be motivated to have minor bodywork done off the record. Unless Ferrari paint is unusually bad (doubt that), or the car was stored outside (really doubt that), you're right that a repaint at 40,000 miles isn't a good sign.
On another note, I called Ferrari-Maserati of OC and they told me they stopped doing PPIs six months ago, due to liability concerns. That gives me some pause, because more than one person has told me a PPI was money well spent.
With regard to the cost, any of the 2-seaters I was considering as new car purchases would probably depreciate more than $3K annually. So, the maintenance costs, while shocking to Accord owners, seem acceptable to me. Frankly, the $642 front brake job on my ex-daily ride, a BMW 325 coupe, irked me more than the prospect of a $1K oil change on a Ferrari would. That sounds irrational, as I look at what I just wrote, but it's true.
Thanks again for the replies -- also enjoyed reading the great earlier discussions here, esp. the one about the guy who gave the boy a ride in his Ferrari.
Actually Ferrari paint from that era isn't very good, sad to say. As Enzo himself used to tell owners: "You buy the engine, we give you the body".
If you can't get a PPI at least you have to see all the service records. The 30K service should be done, as that's a $3,000-$5,000 job depending. Fortunately, you don't have to remove the engine to do the service as with say a 348 or a TR.
Be on the lookout for oil leaks and poor running. You really need to buy these cars tip top or not at all.
Sheesh, i don't check the board for a couple of days and it gets active again! Billymay, welcome to the hunt for a good 328. As, Andys120 said, I'm an owner, and I'd be glad to assist in anyway I can. Although I'm on the opposite coast, at least I may be able to help with some suggestions.
The prices you've been quoted are in the ball park. I've seen good 328s selling locally anywhere from low to mid 40K to the mid 70K range. The latter for a car which had only 1200 miles on it and had been completely gone through by a respected shop in our area.
You definetly are not buying a parts car. I have about 52K on mine now and it is still in great shape. Andys120, who saw it over the summer, can vouch for its condition. The key is to buy a car that is good to begin with. To be assured of that you really need a PPI. If your local dealer won't do it, look for an independent shop of good reputation. Talk to other owners if the dealer balks at sharing info. You might want to join Ferrari Chat for even more opinions and help. (Mr. Shiftright, Am I allowed to say that here?).
I would stay away from repaints. I always think they're hiding something. Although some of the early 70s cars had paint problems, I haven't met anyone with bad paint on a later 328. As I said, my paint is fine and the car is rust free. I use it, in the good weather, as a daily driver and my only complaints are a small parking lot ding in the passengers door and another in the hood, probably from an acorn. Yes, I have a few chips from road use, but quality touch up paint does the trick in covering them. A respray is several years down the road for me.
3K/ yr maintenance cost is probably an average. I think last year I spent about $1200 all toll, this past summer about $300, not including new tires. However, that average will change as it will go in for its 50K major over the winter and that runs about 5K. Actually a bit less as many shops and dealers run deals if you'll let them have your car for the winter and they can do the work at their pace. Unfortunately, that probably doesn't help in sunny CA.
Be sure that any car you look at has ALL of the maintenance records with it and check them carefully. If the 30K major, including belt service hasn't been done, it should be reflected in the price. Again, you're talking 5K. Either have the owner get the service or take the cost off the asking price.
Once you've driven one or two, you might have driving impressions to ask about, please feel free to ask, either here or email me privately. I don't claim expertise, but I've owned my 328 for several years now and it's our third Ferrari, so I might be able to help or steer you towards help.
Good luck with the search!
Andys120, you might be interested in an upcoming lecture at the Lars Anderson Museum. This December 4th, Peter Wright, who wrote "Ferrari F1 Revealed" will be talking about the Ferrari F1 program and the state of F1 in general. the lecture is at 12:30 Pm. Check the museum website for further info. Hope to see you there!
I just received an email from Ferrari describing the new Superamerica model. It's going to be shown at Paris in January 2005. Based on the 575M, it features an horsepower boost to 540. It comes with the GTC (competition) suspension package and has a retractable carbon fibre roof. According to the factory, this roof rotates down in 10 seconds and when it's stowed doesn't interfere with trunk space. It also has a new glass system which permits the driver to automatically select one of five degrees of tint. That'll be nice on sunny days!
The car's a limited addition, like the 550 Barchetta. Picture a topless 575 on which the B pillar has been partially retained when the roof is retracted. It also appears to have a (pop-up?) roll bar over the rear luggage deck.
It's really attractive. No price announced yet, but as a limited addition I recommend rushing to the dealership to place your order. I'm sure it will be very affordable. ;-)
I'll restrict my comments on the new Superamerica and F430 to the styling, since there's little chance I'll ever get to drive either :=(
The Superamerica is a disappointment to me and not worthy of that august name. The original Superamericas were the very top-the-line Ferraris and featured bold styling that was shared with no other Ferraris but the new car is simply a derivative of the Maranello, IMO the least distinguished of the current lineup from a design standpoint.
Back in the day of the glorious 250 Ferraris Enzo's personal Ferrari was the 400 Superamerica. I doubt the Commendatore would chose the new one for his ride if he were living.
The new F430, OTOH, has a great look. The nostrils are much more shaped and styled than the simple over size holes that mar the visage of the 360 Modena. It doesn't hurt that the new nose resembles that of Phil Hill's F1 Dino 246 and some of the Chiti designed sports racers.
The Enzo-style tailights are IMO less successful. I wish Ferrari would stick with the simple four round t/l designs that have been part of their design language for so long.
Andy, I can't say I agree with you about the Superamerica, although I definetly understand your sentiments. The new car is obviously signalling the end of the 575, just as the Barchetta did for the 550. It's not an original design, But I'm not convinced it defames the name.
I saw Enzo's Superamerica go at auction at Monterey a few years ago, and there's a great shot of it in the movie "Grand Prix." It truly is a beautiful car. But, it's also the pinnacle of design ideas from that era. Whereas I agree that the F430 certainly reaches towards those heights now. Also, I agree that the taillights don't work, however I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in the flesh.
Just sitting here on Xmas Eve wondering how Santa is going to get that 550M down the chimney and out through the wood stove without scratching the paint. Gosh, I hope he got my letter!
Merry Christmas, Happy holidays to all. Best wishes for a healthy and happy New Year.
It's interesting that with the very strong prices for high end Ferraris at the Monterey auctions and other auctions since, that the low end cars are beginning to enjoy a come back. Albeit modest, lately GT4s have been selling back in the mid 20K range, for very good cars. Sure you can still get problems for under 20k, but that's true of any model.
There also seems to be a resurgence of interest in early carbed 308s and 328s are holding pretty strong prices as well. Is this trickle down, all the F1 wins or signs of a rising economy.
It has always seemed that the middle end of the collector car market was the first to fall away in bad time and the last to come back in good times. Is this a sign of hope?
You can't give away a carbed 308 in California, which is a huge Ferrari market (can't smog 'em). I think any resurgence is just people not knowing what they are buying and snapping up the low end because they see the high end going up. So it's trickle down but not necessarily a good thing for the buyer.
I got to see the F430 in Detroit last weekend. Man what a car! The most aggressive looking Ferrari in my short time of studying them. I mean this car is pure aggression. I can't wait to see what they'll do for the Stradale version in a couple of years. The Spyder version will be shown at Geneva in March.
Interesting about California. i guess on this coast we're not so tough in emissions standards for older cars. A number of people prefer the older carbed cars because their performance (the car's not the people's) is better. I agree about the 328. It really is the best of the series and perhaps one of the easiest Ferraris to live with. I know I love mine.
And yes, the more I see and read about the 430, the more impressive it becomes. It's going to compete very well with the Gallardo which suffers from Lambos poor QC reputation. IMHO, deservedly.
I remember when the back of every Road & Track had ads for a Unysn tool. Even with that, I couldn't get the Webers on my Lotus right!
One of the most enjoyable days I ever at the shop that cares for my Ferrari was spent watching the mechanic set up the 4 Webers on my GT4 by ear. It's always a pleasure to watch a real master at work! This particular gentleman is a former Technical Director for Ferrari NA and "cut his teeth" on multiple Weber Fcars.
SUs are easy compared to Webers, ten times easier.
Usually people can't get SUs right because the throttle shafts are worn out and they leak air. If you don't rebore the throttle shafts you're wasting your time trying to synchronize them. Also the needles wear out with time.
But the Webers are so fussy and you have three choices too lean, too rich and too medium.
A carbed 308 Ferrari isn't even saleable in California. Not a prayer that you'd pass smog. Not a few new buyers got this unpleasant surprise.
Well, I went over and looked at the pictures. I'd seen them yesterday on the owners sight and some shot taken in Bahrain of the car on the road. The Bahrain photos were obviously not professional shots so, perhaps, that's where the test mule ended up.
Anyway, I think it's lovely and actually think it has better lines than the GTB. That usually isn't the case. What so you guys think?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Ferrari enthusiast magazine called Forza? I just read the most recent issue of it at the bookstore yesterday and they had great articles in it.
This current issue had a comparison of a 328 GTS and a Mondial (both late '80s models). While the 328 only had about 20k miles on it, the Mondial had what was defined as "105k well-driven miles." Which brings me to my next comment: How anyone could get more than 100k miles out of a Ferrari is beyond me. I thought it couldn't be done because Shifty said Ferraris are just about well-used at around 80k miles.
You've probably seen it, Tom, but in case you haven't, the new issue of Forza on the stands has a cover story on the 328 series. Haven't had a chance to read it yet myself.
Andy, Cavallino is still published and is one of the most beautifully photographed and well researched magazines around. It deals, almost exclusively, with historical cars, with some mention of new models as they appear. Yes, I read the article in Forza. It's always a pleasure to hear people say nice things about the car you love.
Jrosasmc, with proper care an Fcar can go well beyond 100K. At least I hope so. Having just spent in excess of 6K on a major service and other things on my 52K mile 328, I'd like to get all the miles I can out of it.
Will this winter ever end? Anyone in the New England area should make plans to see the Ralph Lauren Collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, this spring. It's going to be a great show.
Yes, as a matter of fact I picked up a new Cavallino the other day and it does have some great stuff about the Dino race cars and the 330P4 sports racers as well.
Here's the story: I've been searching for a nice weekend sports car for a while, and got a serious crush on a 328 that got away. Before I drove that, I thought a pristine used 911 cabrio would be The Car. But then I drove this '86 328GTS in blu chiaro. Wow. It made the Porsche seem very plasticky and ordinary. But, it wasn't as nice as advertised, needed some paintwork due to scrapes, had enough minor trim things wrong that the asking price turned out to be a little, uh, optimistic.
But, smitten by my new automotive lust object, I dropped the 911 search and have spent the last couple of months looking for a great pre-88 1/2 328. Easier said than done, even though I'm in SoCal and you'd think everyone and his mom has a Ferrari.
Frustration. Today I get a call from a broker in Missouri, who deals in high-end cars and specializes in 993's. I had dropped him a note back in January, and he hadn't had much luck finding a low mileage 993 cabrio with my color criteria (hate grey interiors for some reason). As luck would have it, he has The Perfect car coming in, a '96 993 black/black/black with 11,000 miles. The car's never seen rain, no dings, no scrapes, yada yada yada. It really is primo, and the 993 is a few notches more attractive (in my eyes) than the portly 996.
In the meantime, a couple of non-car people have told me I'd be an idiot to buy a Ferrari because (cue script here) they're unreliable, maintenance costs a ton, etc. Some of this is true, some of it's bull, but common wisdom isn't always wise. Yes, a 911's going to be less fussy, but the exotic factor just isn't there. I can deal with $4K every 3-4 years for a major belt service, and 328's have a good reputation for being tough cars (by Ferrari standards).
So: I need this group to tell me whether I should grab the 911 and wait for the right 328 to come along, or whether I'd be an idiot not to take a pristine 911 cabriolet. I already have a daily driver - Jeep Liberty - so practical is not a requirement here.
I can afford either, but I'm not sickeningly rich -- if I get the Porsche, that's my car purchase for '05.
that the 328 offers a much better driving experience than a 911, you should look for the right 328 (and it pays to be fussy). They aren't common but you should be able to find what you want.
than many Ferraris but it all comes down to getting the right one. It's better to pay a bit more up front for a really well sorted car than try to save and end up paying on the other end. You can't get much more different driving experiences between a 328 and a 911. Best to drive a couple of both models before deciding.
For all northeast Tifosi, Tutto Italiano, Italian car day at the Lars Anderson Museum of Transportation is Sunday, May 22nd this year. Always a good time and lots of interesting Italian cars to see. Hope to see some of you there!
Both great cars. The 328 will cost you a lot more to drive....figure as a rule of thumb $1 per mile. Are you prepared to pay that? If not, then don't buy it. Yep, that's right---10,000 miles could cost you $10,000. Not EVERY year perhaps, but averaged out that's what it'll be.
The 993 is, IMO a much better car than the 996 engine-wise. I have little confidence in the durability of the 996 engine, having finally seen a couple of them taken apart.
The 993 will run forever, you can use it every day, it is not fussy in the least and won't cost you $1 per mile. The Ferrari will give you a unique driving experience---you will have some wonderful happy days in a 328 and you will have a few very unhappy days in a 328.
If you go for the Ferrari, buy the very best car you can afford, with all services performed. Many sellers dump them right at 30K when the big service is due, ka-ching, that's at least $3K.
Also, before you buy the 328, line up a good Ferrari shop and listen to what they have to say. They should perform a pre-sale check and you can use that checkup to bargain your price to some extent.
I happen to have a good friend with a pristine 1986 Ferrari 328 GTS (red exterior / black interior). Although he is not actively interested in selling, he has offered that I could buy it at any time. I came pretty close back in 2001, but ended up buying a new Honda S2000 instead, which I subsequently sold last spring.
There is no denying that the 328 is a unique driving experience. I've probably put about 1,500 miles on my friend's over the years. However, it is like the saying goes "the only thing better than owning a boat is having a friend who owns one". He has it serviced by an independent mechanic that keeps it running at a cost of about $3,000 per year for 3,000 +/- miles (almost exactly what the Host estimated). I think budgeting anything less is a bit of a risk.
I am now considering re-entering the sports car market. The 328 is tempting. I am on the list for a 2006 911(997) S convertible . The earliest delivery date is likely to be October+. While my friend would sell me the 328 at a fraction of the cost of the new 911, the 911 can fit my wife and daughters for a weekend getaway and won't require service for the first 2 years or 20,000 miles. I suspect with the 911, I would put 7,000 - 10,000 miles per year on it, since it is a fairly comfortable ride. The 328, on the other hand, would probably do more sitting than driving.
You know, I've always liked the twin headlight 330s. I know, I know, I seem to have a penchant for ugly ducklings and poor relations, but if the right car came along, I'd seriously consider one. Now with the NY times article touting their rarity, watch the price jump. On a serious note, it seems the plus twos are starting to be better appreciated. I wonder why? Enzo himself always had a soft spot for them, too bad so many have disappeared through neglect and as donor cars for questionable rebodies and conversions. If you want a classic twelve at an affordable price, you couldn't do much better than a 330 or 250 GTE.
Well you could buy a Jaguar V12 coupe and take the $45,000 extra you didn't spend on a 250 GTE and go around the world a couple times. Not that you'd have a car any less of a hassle to keep running.....
Just a friendly reminder for those of you in the New England area. the Italian Car day, Tutto Italiano,is Sunday, May 22. It's held at the Museum of Transportation in Lars Anderson Park, Brookline Ma. They're expecting a big turnout this year after the exposure they got on the "My Classic Car" tv show. Last year there were nearly 80 Ferraris, nearly as many Alfas and quite a few Lamborghinis and Maseratis. Actually my heart skipped a beat over a fabulous gold Maserati Ghibli. I had a nice talk with the owner, found out the car was for sale and was immediately dragged off by my wife. Anyway, hope to see some of you there, look for the Nero Metallico 328.
I got home tonight to find an email from Ferrari announcing a new prototype. It looks very much like the Enzo. Anyway, here is the email info:
We are pleased to bring clients news of yet another world première - the new FXX prototype. Designed to be the most advanced GT ever created at Maranello, it is the maximum expression in Ferrari's expertise in developing special limited-series sports cars using a concentration of race-derived technology.
Powered by a 6,262 cc V12 engine producing over 800 hp at 8,500 rpm, the FXX reaches new levels of performance. Wind tunnel development has resulted in a shape that produces 40% higher downforce than ever achieved before, while the adoption of F1 gearbox strategies has enabled Ferrari's engineers to reduce gearchange times to less than 100 milliseconds virtually the same as a single-seater! In addition the FXX is equipped with a highly advanced telemetry system that monitors no fewer than 39 vehicle dynamics parameters in real time.
I'm sure there are pics somewhere on the net.
FYI, folks in the Northeast, Concorso Ferrari is this weekend, Sunday actually, at the State House in Hartford CT.
Does anybody know that the markup for a F430 coupe is over 50K and for a F430 Spider is as high as 150K over MSRP!!! I am a loyal Ferrari enthusiast and have always wanted to own one. So far my favorites are the F355 and F360, Both of them are truely beautiful and affordable compare to the extreme levels like Enzo or F50,.When the F360 just came out back in 99, the dealers put markup on those cars as high as 100k over msrp, but now its 2005, the F430 is already out on the market. So you can own an used F360 with low milege around the MSRP. But when i heard about the markup on those F430, i really think we should have a law to Ban markups on cars. The Ferrari company did not make cars to make their authorized dealers to overcharge the customers and making the car a merchandise for people to trade around to make money with. I just saw on ebay last week that a person who is selling his spot of a F430 Spider for november delivery, the bidding amount is already 130K and the reserve is still Not Met. The surprising thing is that there are actually alot of people bidding on it. If you add up the total amount, you will end up paying around 400K for a F430 Spider when the MSRP is only 200K. Personally, I'd rather pay 200K for a used F360 Spider than pay double for a F430 spider. I think alot of people on this forum can actually afford a Ferrari but will not be willing to pay double for the car unless you are really loaded with lottery money. Its just not a smart thing to do.
Ferrari of Washington indicated to me that they do not mark up their cars, under the "normal" ordering process for a Ferrari 430. Unfortunately, the "normal" wait now exceeds 2-4+ years, depending upon the model (coupe vs. spider; F1 vs. 6-speed).
What does often happen, however, is that the original purchaser backs out or tries to flip their contract (which FoW does not permit). At that point, it's a free market and FoW will mark up the car to whatever they can get. I was told I could wait 3+/- years for a 430 Spider at MSRP or take a yellow 6-speed that was coming in that had just become available for $75k over MSRP.
FWIW, the 430 is an enormous performance improvement over the 360. That from a friend of mine with a 2001 360 coupe that is trading up to a 430 spider. His wait is down to 9-12 months, thanks to his past purchase.
Personally, while it was fun to fantasize for awhile, I can't justify either a used 360 or a new 430. They are beatiful cars, but not meant to be driven much. But my brief consideration of a 430 has helped the $100k price tag on a new 911(997) S Cabriolet seem relatively reasonable. Especially given that it matches or beats the 360 in performance, can carry my daughters in the back seat and goes 2 years or 20,000 miles before the first service. Downright cheap by comparison, wouldn't you say??
I agree, the 911S does not match the 490 hp Ferrari 430. (The 430's measured performance is actually closer to the Enzo than it is to the 360.)
What I claimed was that the new 997 model 911S appears to be neck and neck with the outgoing 400hp Ferrari 360. According to Porsche's published performance stats, the new 911 / 911S do not appear that much faster than the old 996 models they replace. But from the independent tests I've seen, the 911S comes in at anywhere from 3.8 to 4.3 in 0-60 times which isn't far off the 996 911 Turbo and Ferrari 360. And everyone that I have spoken with confirms that the new 997 911 - especially the S model - is an impressive improvement in every way, performance, interior quality, daily driveability, etc.
All of this performance is somewhat meaningless, given that my average 0-60 time with my daughters in the back seat would be about 30 seconds. And it's the back seat in the 911 that has me considering spending an extra $65,000 over the cost of another Honda S2000. I miss the days when I could squeeze both of them in the front passenger seat of the S2000 for a 1/2 mile drive to school at 10 mph.
The 328 from what I have heard is a bullet proof car. Keep the 15,000 & 30,000 mile maintenance checkups and you should be fine. I have seen many with 70,000 - 80,000 miles on them.
Be careful on eBay though. This turned out to be a very costly lesson for me. I purchased a '86 328 from Kessler Auto Group in Miami and did not receive the car as advertised. On 2nd day, car's clutch went and engine blew oil everywhere.
My costly advice, have an independent mechanic look over car before final purchase. In hind sight, it would have been well worth a few hundred dollars.
Sorry to hear about your misfortune. What recourse do you have since you said the car was not as advertised? You should always get a Pre Purchase Inspection on any Ferrari. A little money up front can save you a lot of money later. Good luck with repairs, they really are great cars.
Having owned a 911 and driven a Ferrari, I don't think the choice comes down to performance. A Porsche is a practical but slightly naughty sports car, that tells everyone you can go damned fast and have disposable income. A Ferrari is a rolling lust object, an awe-inspiring bit of celebrity that sounds like an angry race car on the street.
A Porsche 997 is the next act in a legendary engineering story. A Ferrari is Cameron Diaz showing up naked at your door.
No doubt a 997 is a fine car, better built and possibly better engineered. I'm sure you'll like it, as much as I liked my 993. But don't kid yourself. You're either getting a Ferrari, or you're getting something else.
Thanks for the reply! Yes, I plan to avoid eBay for many reasons, one of which is that I want to inspect the car personally, and also get a PPI on it.
BTW, I think I saw your post on f-chat. I hope that clutch and oil leak issue gets sorted out.
I'm probably going to ante up and pay the dealer premium, for the peace of mind that comes with a car that's been gone over and has a 30-day limited warranty on it. It takes a while to find the right car, but I will.
Comments
I'd question why a car was stripped and repainted @ 40K (or less).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I think the 328 is the best of that era of Ferraris and 40K isn't too bad.
You have to figure at least $1 a mile to drive this car, so if $3,000 a year for maintenance makes you swallow hard, then don't do it, because that's what it will cost.
I also agree I'd go for the car that is the most original and with the best service records. That repaint sounds awfully unusual, and plenty of Ferraris get "smacked" without ever appearing on CARFAX. Carfax only uses public records of totals or in most cases (not all) cars with accident reports. So if the car was say dented to the tune of $15,000, and no accident report was filed, then the car will not appear on CARFAX.
On another note, I called Ferrari-Maserati of OC and they told me they stopped doing PPIs six months ago, due to liability concerns. That gives me some pause, because more than one person has told me a PPI was money well spent.
With regard to the cost, any of the 2-seaters I was considering as new car purchases would probably depreciate more than $3K annually. So, the maintenance costs, while shocking to Accord owners, seem acceptable to me. Frankly, the $642 front brake job on my ex-daily ride, a BMW 325 coupe, irked me more than the prospect of a $1K oil change on a Ferrari would. That sounds irrational, as I look at what I just wrote, but it's true.
Thanks again for the replies -- also enjoyed reading the great earlier discussions here, esp. the one about the guy who gave the boy a ride in his Ferrari.
If you can't get a PPI at least you have to see all the service records. The 30K service should be done, as that's a $3,000-$5,000 job depending. Fortunately, you don't have to remove the engine to do the service as with say a 348 or a TR.
Be on the lookout for oil leaks and poor running. You really need to buy these cars tip top or not at all.
The prices you've been quoted are in the ball park. I've seen good 328s selling locally anywhere from low to mid 40K to the mid 70K range. The latter for a car which had only 1200 miles on it and had been completely gone through by a respected shop in our area.
You definetly are not buying a parts car. I have about 52K on mine now and it is still in great shape. Andys120, who saw it over the summer, can vouch for its condition. The key is to buy a car that is good to begin with. To be assured of that you really need a PPI. If your local dealer won't do it, look for an independent shop of good reputation. Talk to other owners if the dealer balks at sharing info. You might want to join Ferrari Chat for even more opinions and help. (Mr. Shiftright, Am I allowed to say that here?).
I would stay away from repaints. I always think they're hiding something. Although some of the early 70s cars had paint problems, I haven't met anyone with bad paint on a later 328. As I said, my paint is fine and the car is rust free. I use it, in the good weather, as a daily driver and my only complaints are a small parking lot ding in the passengers door and another in the hood, probably from an acorn. Yes, I have a few chips from road use, but quality touch up paint does the trick in covering them. A respray is several years down the road for me.
3K/ yr maintenance cost is probably an average. I think last year I spent about $1200 all toll, this past summer about $300, not including new tires. However, that average will change as it will go in for its 50K major over the winter and that runs about 5K. Actually a bit less as many shops and dealers run deals if you'll let them have your car for the winter and they can do the work at their pace. Unfortunately, that probably doesn't help in sunny CA.
Be sure that any car you look at has ALL of the maintenance records with it and check them carefully. If the 30K major, including belt service hasn't been done, it should be reflected in the price. Again, you're talking 5K. Either have the owner get the service or take the cost off the asking price.
Once you've driven one or two, you might have driving impressions to ask about, please feel free to ask, either here or email me privately. I don't claim expertise, but I've owned my 328 for several years now and it's our third Ferrari, so I might be able to help or steer you towards help.
Good luck with the search!
Andys120, you might be interested in an upcoming lecture at the Lars Anderson Museum. This December 4th, Peter Wright, who wrote "Ferrari F1 Revealed" will be talking about the Ferrari F1 program and the state of F1 in general. the lecture is at 12:30 Pm. Check the museum website for further info. Hope to see you there!
Tom
The car's a limited addition, like the 550 Barchetta. Picture a topless 575 on which the B pillar has been partially retained when the roof is retracted. It also appears to have a (pop-up?) roll bar over the rear luggage deck.
It's really attractive. No price announced yet, but as a limited addition I recommend rushing to the dealership to place your order. I'm sure it will be very affordable. ;-)
The Superamerica is a disappointment to me and not worthy of that august name. The original Superamericas were the very top-the-line Ferraris and featured bold styling that was shared with no other Ferraris but the new car is simply a derivative of the Maranello, IMO the least distinguished of the current lineup from a design standpoint.
Back in the day of the glorious 250 Ferraris Enzo's personal Ferrari was the 400 Superamerica. I doubt the Commendatore would chose the new one for his ride if he were living.
The new F430, OTOH, has a great look. The nostrils are much more shaped and styled than the simple over size holes that mar the visage of the 360 Modena. It doesn't hurt that the new nose resembles that of Phil Hill's F1 Dino 246 and some of the Chiti designed sports racers.
The Enzo-style tailights are IMO less successful. I wish Ferrari would stick with the simple four round t/l designs that have been part of their design language for so long.
All in all bravo!
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I saw Enzo's Superamerica go at auction at Monterey a few years ago, and there's a great shot of it in the movie "Grand Prix." It truly is a beautiful car. But, it's also the pinnacle of design ideas from that era. Whereas I agree that the F430 certainly reaches towards those heights now. Also, I agree that the taillights don't work, however I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in the flesh.
Merry Christmas, Happy holidays to all. Best wishes for a healthy and happy New Year.
Tom
Keith
There also seems to be a resurgence of interest in early carbed 308s and 328s are holding pretty strong prices as well. Is this trickle down, all the F1 wins or signs of a rising economy.
It has always seemed that the middle end of the collector car market was the first to fall away in bad time and the last to come back in good times. Is this a sign of hope?
What you want is an '82 on up FI car or a 328.
M
And yes, the more I see and read about the 430, the more impressive it becomes. It's going to compete very well with the Gallardo which suffers from Lambos poor QC reputation. IMHO, deservedly.
One of the most enjoyable days I ever at the shop that cares for my Ferrari was spent watching the mechanic set up the 4 Webers on my GT4 by ear. It's always a pleasure to watch a real master at work! This particular gentleman is a former Technical Director for Ferrari NA and "cut his teeth" on multiple Weber Fcars.
The single Weber in my Fiat 124 never gave a bit of trouble unless it was cold enough to make the choke linkage stick in the start position (max air).
Fixing that required removing the air cleaner cover and unjamming the choke with your thumb, real fun on a snowy New York day.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Usually people can't get SUs right because the throttle shafts are worn out and they leak air. If you don't rebore the throttle shafts you're wasting your time trying to synchronize them. Also the needles wear out with time.
But the Webers are so fussy and you have three choices too lean, too rich and too medium.
A carbed 308 Ferrari isn't even saleable in California. Not a prayer that you'd pass smog. Not a few new buyers got this unpleasant surprise.
Go, comment, drool, enjoy!
Anyway, I think it's lovely and actually think it has better lines than the GTB. That usually isn't the case. What so you guys think?
roof which isn't always the case.
OTOH, compared to the 360 Spider, I like the 430 Spider better in the front but those tailights aren't as night as the simple t/ls of the 360.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
http://www.autoweek.com/files/specials/galleries/f430_spider/page- s/f430_sp_10.htm
Looks nice from this angle, sez me.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
This current issue had a comparison of a 328 GTS and a Mondial (both late '80s models). While the 328 only had about 20k miles on it, the Mondial had what was defined as "105k well-driven miles." Which brings me to my next comment: How anyone could get more than 100k miles out of a Ferrari is beyond me. I thought it couldn't be done because Shifty said Ferraris are just about well-used at around 80k miles.
is still published.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Ferrari weather is coming soon.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Jrosasmc, with proper care an Fcar can go well beyond 100K. At least I hope so. Having just spent in excess of 6K on a major service and other things on my 52K mile 328, I'd like to get all the miles I can out of it.
Will this winter ever end? Anyone in the New England area should make plans to see the Ralph Lauren Collection at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, this spring. It's going to be a great show.
I'm definitely planning to see the MFA exhibit.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
But, smitten by my new automotive lust object, I dropped the 911 search and have spent the last couple of months looking for a great pre-88 1/2 328. Easier said than done, even though I'm in SoCal and you'd think everyone and his mom has a Ferrari.
Frustration. Today I get a call from a broker in Missouri, who deals in high-end cars and specializes in 993's. I had dropped him a note back in January, and he hadn't had much luck finding a low mileage 993 cabrio with my color criteria (hate grey interiors for some reason). As luck would have it, he has The Perfect car coming in, a '96 993 black/black/black with 11,000 miles. The car's never seen rain, no dings, no scrapes, yada yada yada. It really is primo, and the 993 is a few notches more attractive (in my eyes) than the portly 996.
In the meantime, a couple of non-car people have told me I'd be an idiot to buy a Ferrari because (cue script here) they're unreliable, maintenance costs a ton, etc. Some of this is true, some of it's bull, but common wisdom isn't always wise. Yes, a 911's going to be less fussy, but the exotic factor just isn't there. I can deal with $4K every 3-4 years for a major belt service, and 328's have a good reputation for being tough cars (by Ferrari standards).
So: I need this group to tell me whether I should grab the 911 and wait for the right 328 to come along, or whether I'd be an idiot not to take a pristine 911 cabriolet. I already have a daily driver - Jeep Liberty - so practical is not a requirement here.
I can afford either, but I'm not sickeningly rich -- if I get the Porsche, that's my car purchase for '05.
Sooooo... help.
Jon aka Billymay
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
MODERATOR
Need help getting around? claires@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Tell everyone about your buying experience: Write a Dealer Review
Both great cars. The 328 will cost you a lot more to drive....figure as a rule of thumb $1 per mile. Are you prepared to pay that? If not, then don't buy it. Yep, that's right---10,000 miles could cost you $10,000. Not EVERY year perhaps, but averaged out that's what it'll be.
The 993 is, IMO a much better car than the 996 engine-wise. I have little confidence in the durability of the 996 engine, having finally seen a couple of them taken apart.
The 993 will run forever, you can use it every day, it is not fussy in the least and won't cost you $1 per mile. The Ferrari will give you a unique driving experience---you will have some wonderful happy days in a 328 and you will have a few very unhappy days in a 328.
If you go for the Ferrari, buy the very best car you can afford, with all services performed. Many sellers dump them right at 30K when the big service is due, ka-ching, that's at least $3K.
Also, before you buy the 328, line up a good Ferrari shop and listen to what they have to say. They should perform a pre-sale check and you can use that checkup to bargain your price to some extent.
There is no denying that the 328 is a unique driving experience. I've probably put about 1,500 miles on my friend's over the years. However, it is like the saying goes "the only thing better than owning a boat is having a friend who owns one". He has it serviced by an independent mechanic that keeps it running at a cost of about $3,000 per year for 3,000 +/- miles (almost exactly what the Host estimated). I think budgeting anything less is a bit of a risk.
I am now considering re-entering the sports car market. The 328 is tempting. I am on the list for a 2006 911(997) S convertible . The earliest delivery date is likely to be October+. While my friend would sell me the 328 at a fraction of the cost of the new 911, the 911 can fit my wife and daughters for a weekend getaway and won't require service for the first 2 years or 20,000 miles. I suspect with the 911, I would put 7,000 - 10,000 miles per year on it, since it is a fairly comfortable ride. The 328, on the other hand, would probably do more sitting than driving.
Let us know what you decide.
The NY Times on affordable Ferraris.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
back seat or not, they're Ferraris from the Boranni wires up.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Tom
We are pleased to bring clients news of yet another world première - the new FXX prototype. Designed to be the most advanced GT ever created at Maranello, it is the maximum expression in Ferrari's expertise in developing special limited-series sports cars using a concentration of race-derived technology.
Powered by a 6,262 cc V12 engine producing over 800 hp at 8,500 rpm, the FXX reaches new levels of performance. Wind tunnel development has resulted in a shape that produces 40% higher downforce than ever achieved before, while the adoption of F1 gearbox strategies has enabled Ferrari's engineers to reduce gearchange times to less than 100 milliseconds virtually the same as a single-seater! In addition the FXX is equipped with a highly advanced telemetry system that monitors no fewer than 39 vehicle dynamics parameters in real time.
I'm sure there are pics somewhere on the net.
FYI, folks in the Northeast, Concorso Ferrari is this weekend, Sunday actually, at the State House in Hartford CT.
Tom
I am a loyal Ferrari enthusiast and have always wanted to own one. So far my favorites are the F355 and F360, Both of them are truely beautiful and affordable compare to the extreme levels like Enzo or F50,.When the F360 just came out back in 99, the dealers put markup on those cars as high as 100k over msrp, but now its 2005, the F430 is already out on the market. So you can own an used F360 with low milege around the MSRP. But when i heard about the markup on those F430, i really think we should have a law to Ban markups on cars. The Ferrari company did not make cars to make their authorized dealers to overcharge the customers and making the car a merchandise for people to trade around to make money with. I just saw on ebay last week that a person who is selling his spot of a F430 Spider for november delivery, the bidding amount is already 130K and the reserve is still Not Met. The surprising thing is that there are actually alot of people bidding on it. If you add up the total amount, you will end up paying around 400K for a F430 Spider when the MSRP is only 200K.
Personally, I'd rather pay 200K for a used F360 Spider than pay double for a F430 spider. I think alot of people on this forum can actually afford a Ferrari but will not be willing to pay double for the car unless you are really loaded with lottery money. Its just not a smart thing to do.
Oh, grow up! If you don't like the price, don't buy it. That's how the free market works. Yeesh! :shades:
I'm soory you can't afford one but I'm even sorrier I can't :sick:
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
What does often happen, however, is that the original purchaser backs out or tries to flip their contract (which FoW does not permit). At that point, it's a free market and FoW will mark up the car to whatever they can get. I was told I could wait 3+/- years for a 430 Spider at MSRP or take a yellow 6-speed that was coming in that had just become available for $75k over MSRP.
FWIW, the 430 is an enormous performance improvement over the 360. That from a friend of mine with a 2001 360 coupe that is trading up to a 430 spider. His wait is down to 9-12 months, thanks to his past purchase.
Personally, while it was fun to fantasize for awhile, I can't justify either a used 360 or a new 430. They are beatiful cars, but not meant to be driven much. But my brief consideration of a 430 has helped the $100k price tag on a new 911(997) S Cabriolet seem relatively reasonable. Especially given that it matches or beats the 360 in performance, can carry my daughters in the back seat and goes 2 years or 20,000 miles before the first service. Downright cheap by comparison, wouldn't you say??
M
What I claimed was that the new 997 model 911S appears to be neck and neck with the outgoing 400hp Ferrari 360. According to Porsche's published performance stats, the new 911 / 911S do not appear that much faster than the old 996 models they replace. But from the independent tests I've seen, the 911S comes in at anywhere from 3.8 to 4.3 in 0-60 times which isn't far off the 996 911 Turbo and Ferrari 360. And everyone that I have spoken with confirms that the new 997 911 - especially the S model - is an impressive improvement in every way, performance, interior quality, daily driveability, etc.
All of this performance is somewhat meaningless, given that my average 0-60 time with my daughters in the back seat would be about 30 seconds. And it's the back seat in the 911 that has me considering spending an extra $65,000 over the cost of another Honda S2000. I miss the days when I could squeeze both of them in the front passenger seat of the S2000 for a 1/2 mile drive to school at 10 mph.
Be careful on eBay though. This turned out to be a very costly lesson for me. I purchased a '86 328 from Kessler Auto Group in Miami and did not receive the car as advertised. On 2nd day, car's clutch went and engine blew oil everywhere.
My costly advice, have an independent mechanic look over car before final purchase. In hind sight, it would have been well worth a few hundred dollars.
A Porsche 997 is the next act in a legendary engineering story. A Ferrari is Cameron Diaz showing up naked at your door.
No doubt a 997 is a fine car, better built and possibly better engineered. I'm sure you'll like it, as much as I liked my 993. But don't kid yourself. You're either getting a Ferrari, or you're getting something else.
BTW, I think I saw your post on f-chat. I hope that clutch and oil leak issue gets sorted out.
I'm probably going to ante up and pay the dealer premium, for the peace of mind that comes with a car that's been gone over and has a 30-day limited warranty on it. It takes a while to find the right car, but I will.