Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

andys120

I've spent a great deal of my life thinking about a car I'll never have, probably never even sit in but I've devoured books on them and filled my basement with scale models of them.
Let's talk about the Ferrari mystique, the cars, the racers, the people who made it what it, the future of Ferrari and of course the late Pope of Automobilia, Il Commendatore, Enzo Ferrari.
Let's hear your opinions--
Are you a tifosi? Do you have a favorite? Do you prefer Maseratis or Lambos? Who was the greatest Ferrari race driver? Do they have to be red?

carnut4

would be the Ferrari 365 GTB4 Daytona coupe. Something about the styling and overall proportions, that great V12, the whole package. I always stop at Ferrarri of Los Gatos, Ca when I visit my friends there. I went to high school in Los Gatos, but they didn't have a Ferrari dealership then. Now, I stop and drool at the selection. And, they have actual Ferrari mechanics working there, so while you're browsing the lot you can listen to mechanics taking those twelves out on tune-up runs and winding them up. Great-both the sights and the sounds. I was looking in the latest issue of the Dupont registry yesterday, and in the Ferrari section, there was a beautiful 73 Daytona coupe, in kind of an okra yellow. Looked great. No, they don't have to be red [although that's my favorite]-this yellow would do just fine-for 109,000 bucks. Now, what would it be like to drive and maintain this 73 Daytona if I were to take out a home equity loan?

merckx

I recgonized my own love of cars in your post,only I really love Mercedes sedans.
The English magazines have so many articles about how suprisingly obtainable a Ferrarri can be.
In fact,my favorites tend to be the apparently unwanted,cheapest ones.
The 2+2s from the sixties are my favorites-330 GTCs(?). Espically the ones with the quad headlights,which many must think gsrish and "American". There's a really sharp one in ther classifieds of this month's Road & Track.
And probably the least I also think has some appeal. It's the mid seventies Dino GT4(?)-the one right before the '77 308 GTB.Not the beloved late 60s Dino;the later,angular one.
And the first,2 valve Mondials are slow and now unwanted.
But rather than just dream,I bet many of us could afford these bottom-feede Ferraris.
The two place ones,to me,have a "door-stop" wedginess to them I just don't respond to.
So think about these 2+2s.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not just the buying, it's the maintenance that keeps me in check. One thing many people simply don't understand about Ferraris is that they are "narrowly engineered" to give fantastic performance, but in a very narrow band of specifications. You go out of those specifications, and it can get ugly.

So buying a "beater" Ferrari is a fool's choice. I've passed on a few very very cheap ones for that reason. With all the special tools and expertise needed, I'd be lost without some help, and that doesn't come cheap. (Same with a '71 Rolls Royce Coupe I passed on for $7,000. Nice car, but right hand drive, needed brakes/hydraulics, tires and tune up/major service---that was it. Best estimate from a FRIEND was $10,000 for "starters").

But I love 'em, the Ferraris, not because they are perfect, but because they are so different from any other car. You'll find many people who have some gross misconceptions about Ferraris, such as:

They are fragile (WRONG!)

My Corvette is faster (yes, maybe, depending, but it's a Chevrolet, and sounds and feels like one)

They are owned by poseurs who don't know how to drive them (WRONG again. I would guess more Ferrari owners track their cars than most exotic car owners, if not more than all exotic car owners). Most Ferrari owners are good drivers, certainly better than average.

merckx

Sure,$7,000 is way too little to spent on a Rolls. I can understand your temptation,though. You hardly ever SEE those 2-doors. i think they're really interesting-one for $25,000 would be fun.

Mr_Shiftright

That's about the going rate, $25K. But you don't want a RHD car in America. That kills value enormously. Eventually a Rolls mechanic bought the car and shipped it to England to make a killing. He fixed it all up himself and then drove it off the boat...and the transmission failed! Man, was I lucky.

I'd say buy the best used Ferrari you can afford and avoid shabby cars completely.

This is SHOCKING, but some Ferrari experts really and sincerely believe that a very high mileage Ferrari, if it is one of the more unloved modern ones (Testarossa, 400i, 2 valve 308s) is really only a parts car and should be purchased as such.
And they don't mean shabby either. Even a clean one with 75K is such a risk financially that you should treat it as a parts car.

andys120

The 250GT 2+2 was one of the first Ferraris ever got loopy about. I remember a rather elaborate sketch of it I made on the front of a notebook.
I like the 330 as well and I actually prefer the four headlight model which I think has stood the test of time rather well. If I could find one cheap....it's like Shifty sez, if you haven't got an expert, fuhgedaboutit!

I see you like myself find the nomenclature of these cars confusing. The 330 GTC was a two seater with a nose identical to the 2+2/2-headlight model.

If anything the 2+2 was a 330GTE. The 250 2+2 is also known as a GTE. I'm not sure where the GTE designation came from because until about 10 years ago I'd never heard of, they were always just 2+2s

tsaupe1

Ever since I was a kid I have been in love with Ferraris. I think it may have been watching Phil Hill throw the 156 around Monaco but I'm not sure that was the exact moment the affair began.

In the early '70's I bought a 250GTE. It was never right and I couldn't afford to make it right. No one wanted 2+2's and I sold it cheap. It was the biggest mistake I ever made.

After several Alfa's, Lotuses (crazy or what? I was actually dumb enough to buy another), and a Jag I started buying sedans (Benzes).

In 2000, my mid-life crisis caught me up and I bought a Toyota MR2 Spyder. It's a Lotus that starts and runs everyday. Great car, a blast to drive.

But last year my wife (bless her) convinced me to follow the dream. I looked at a lot of Ferraris in "my price range" Mondial coupes, 308 GTB's and GTS's. Every one I looked had problems and I wanted every one of them. Fortunately, memories of the 250 and common sense prevailed. there is no bigger or more expensive nightmare than a bad exotic.

Last August I finally bought. Through a very reputable broker, Boston Sportscar in Weston MA (are we allowed plugs?). They found me a beautiful black/black 308 Dino GT4, 1979.

The car has been impeccabley maintained, which makes it easy to keep up with. I use it as an almost daily driver. Obviously in good weather only. It is stored over the winter with the MR2.

Because I put miles on it, I've had to do some maintenance. First the good news. Ferrari's are as solid as can be. It starts and runs everytime. No shakes, rattles or rolls that you wouldn't expect in a 23 year old car. There is enough easy do-it-yourself work to keep the owner involved and happily puttering. Over about 5000 miles of mixed driving I have not had any real problems except a broken shock. The koni's appeared to be original.

The bad news. Well, bad is the wrong word. Be forwarned. Just as Mr. Shiftright says, repairs are expensive. Shocks are $500, a piece. This spring I put a clutch in. I knew going in it would have to be done. That's around $2500 parts and labor.

Knowing this, I put money aside in a Ferrari maintenace account. My service provider says to plan on about $1200-$1500 per year and about $5000 every 15, 000 miles for the dreaded belt change.

The bottom line is this. This car gives me and my wife, an indescribable thrill everytime it fires up and the Tubi exhaust starts that symphony. I have no regrets what so ever of buying the car. Until you actually have one, or the use of one, you simply can't imagine what it's like to drive a Ferrari.

Sorry if I'm gushing and sorry for the very long post.

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, that sounds about right, Tom. To do right by a Ferrari it ends up costing about $1 a mile once you average it all out over a few years.

I know some folks like to criticize Ferrari maintenance costs, but as you say, if you haven't driven one hard yourself, you aren't in a position to judge whether $1 a mile is worth it or not.

When I was a younger man, I used to have this smug attitude "So what's the big deal about a Ferrari?" One day I had a Ferrari mechanic take me out on the back roads. He was a former amateur racer in Italy and a very solid, fierce driver. It was unlike anything else I'd experienced in a road car. I remember thinking, after the ride "Surely, this cannot be legal." It was like owning your own fighter jet.

My friend has a Daytona and I take it around once in a while. It's a somewhat harsh and stiff car on city streets but it is amazing what happens about 80 mph on up. The whole machine just changes personality, as if it were saying "Oh, yeah, now I'm starting to feel the sweet spot. Keep scratching right there. Now a little higher. And a little higher"

On a Daytona, "higher" can get you up to 170 MPH (theoretically--this is not a car that has been tech-ed!)

carnut4

thanks for the response about the Ferrari Daytona. I've been a Ferrari enthusiast ever since I started reading about cars in 1957. Not long after that, I learned about Ferraris, as a twelve-year-old.

dgraves1

$1 per mile. Let's see, I have about $100 in my wallet. Any Ferrari owners want to make a quick $100?

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, DG, we could open up a franchise like those go-cart tracks! "Ride In Your Fantasy Car", $1 a mile....Ferrari, Bentley, Porsche Turbo, Z06. They can just press a button on the dash (if they can reach it) and add another lap.

Hmmm...I need to do the math. Sounds too cheap for a lap.

andys120

Out in Southern Calif (where else)?

Mr_Shiftright

You can still rent a Ferrari out here, I think for only $500/600 a day. I'm sure the weekly rate is better and I bet there's an AARP discount. Unfortunately, where they rent Ferraris is no where i want to drive one. I mean, LA? Sure, let 'er rip to 25 mph. I suppose there's always midnight.

andys120

I use3d to think that a real Ferrari had to have 12 cylinders but as I accumulated literature on 'em I became more and more aware of the illustrious racing history of the Dino V6s in racing (e.g. the shark nosed 156 Dino F1 of 1961).

I say they're real Ferraris, my favorite's the 246 GTS, in fact it's one of the top 3 or 4 Ferraris ever in my book.
I've never been able to decide on a "favorite"
Ferrari, it's like picking a favorite beer or a favorite Bob Dylan song.

tsaupe1

I absolutely agree with Andys. The racing dinos, both F1 and sportscars all carry the prancing horse. It's only the road going Dinos that were not badged Ferrari. However, open the engine cover and look at the name on the cam covers!

I supposse this arguement will go on for ever. I've owned both a 12 and an 8 and they're both ferrari's in my book.

As far as renting is concerned, go to Vegas. Rent one in town and take it out into the desert!

andys120

the day I saw my first 250 GT Berlinetta Lusso.
I was getting a ride back to college back in 1964 from a kid and this silver Ferrari passes us on Route 17 in the Catskills (the Quickway). It didn't blow by us so I had a good long look at it. A shortish gent in a Tyrolean hat was behind the wheel, no passenger, Italian(Tourist) plates.

The car was just staggeringly beautiful, the most beautiful car I'd ever seen. Sharklike grill, rounded fenders, raked windshield and backglass, widerim Borrani wires, Kamm tail.

WOW! I knew right away what it was 'cuz I'd seen it in magazines. Howie, my driver didn't get why I was so ga-ga but I knew I'd just seen the most gorgeous car I'd ever lay eyes on.

Don't tell me Ferraris have to be red.

Mr_Shiftright

Lussos are beautiful. I think the only reason they aren't worth more (you can buy a very nice one for $125K) is that with their limited displacement they don't offer the screaming performance of the later cars. It's no fun getting beat up by a hot Japanese hatchback at the stop light.

Silver is a lovely color for a Lusso.

merckx

On a History Channel show about sports cars,it was mentioned that Enzo made Axis material-is this now generally considered to his discredit?
On the other hand,I understand that most think the French treated Porsche quite badly-forced him to design what became the Renault 4CV while being incarcerated.
Ancient history,I know.but I was surprised nonetheless to hear of Ferrarri's war-time activities.

speedshift

Don't know what Enzo was up to but I don't think a collaborator is someone who makes war materiel for his own country. He was Italian, Italy was at war (at least intellectually if not emotionally) and bad things happened to Italians who didn't get with the program.

On the other hand, I've heard allegations about U.S. automakers with operations in Germany being cozy with Hitler in the '30s. I don't remember the specifics or whether anything has ever been proven.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, it is quite well documented that GM cooperated with and profited from the [non-permissible content removed] government. But not when war was declared on the US of course.Prior to 1941. And GM got its property back after the war, which is more than a lot of people got. It wasn't a proud moment in GM history.

I suspect the Ferrari and Porsche stories are complex and would warrant a lot of further research before commenting. To some however, Dr. Porsche is not all that sympathetic a character.

andys120

which seems odd since it was essentially a re-bodied SWB, with the same engine. What's the culprit, too much weight? not enough carburation?
Were there any aluminum-body Lussos?

Mr_Shiftright

You know, Andy, I don't know all the particulars except the obvious ones of small displacement and weight. Perhaps the engine was also detuned re carbs/cams/advance, etc. I suspect so. I've driven Lussos and they are a bit leisurely, there's no doubt about it.

Of course, in their day they were certainly adequate, but not dominant.

merckx

Does it mean "luxury"in Italian? I do recall that they were referred to as "gentlemens" Ferraris. They are one of my very favorites though. Very pretty bodywork. If they are a little slow,maybe they have more than usual sound deadening and thicker carpets?

im_brentwood

Well,

They were more like Ferrari's answer to Aston Martins and the like. A wonderful, true red-blooded Ferrari, but they were more of a Luxury Tourer and don't have the edge of the GTBs..etc..

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

More like a true GT car, yes,that's right. Something like a Jaguar XK8 or Mercedes SL500 but with a definite Italian twist that keeps the fun in the driving.

im_brentwood

I guess... Maybe like an Alfa GTV from hell?

andys120

Would be a 456M, it's a lot faster but not as pretty.

jrosasmc

What are the 1968-74 V-6 equipped Dino GTS coupes like to drive? Are they any fun?

tsaupe1

The Lusso, surprisingly, has 10 more horses than the standard 250 of the era. It's the same engine, without the 6 webers, as the fabled 250 GTO, but down 50 HP from the GTO's 300.

If memory serves me correctly, the Lusso was a three carb Lampredi, similar, if not identical to the engine used in the 250 GTE 2+2. If you consider the era, (mid-sixties) 250 HP is pretty good.

My guess is that the culprit in performance was the weight. However, for my money, it's certainly still in the running for the most beautiful Ferrari ever.

Regarding the V6 Dino's. I've never driven one but I do have a story. In the mid 70's my wife and I were in upper NY state and came up behind a 246. I was driving a Lotus Elan S1 at the time.

Anyway, we kept going a little faster and a little faster on the back roads and, because the Lotus was so light and handled so well, I was able to keep up and occasionally pass.

Finally we both turned onto the NY Thruway. I had the Lotus at redline coming off the ramp onto the thruway when the Ferrari just upshifted and walked away from me. I guess I had been told what was what. Judging by the smile on the drivers face as he waved goodbye in the rearview mirror, I'd say they're a blast to drive!

andys120

According to AutoWeek (4/22) Scuderia von Ruschenberg of Munich has a Ferrari rental plan for tourists in Europe. 17 (?) models are available ranging from a 308GT4 to an F40(!). A week in a 360 Modena Spider is quoted at $990 including insurance and 870 miles (1400km).

Sounds like a good deal to me. I wonder if I could get a California Spider?

andys120

Even if some of us were to make friends with a knowledgeable Ferrari Technician I doubt we could afford the California Spider or 365 Daytona we lust for.

Let's talk about Ferraris that might be available in decent condition with reasonable mileage on a budget of say $40k.

Here are some that I'm aware of:

308 GTB/GTS/Mondial
330 GTE (2+2)
365/400 GT 2+2
Dino 308 GT/4
328 GTB

Not a very long list is it? Any comments additions or subtractions are welcome. Feel free to tell me if you think the whole idea of an "affordable" Ferrari is a mirage, whatever, let's discuss.

im_brentwood

A great Driving one, even if its a bit ugly to some and will never be a high buck car is the 365GTC/4

A 2+2 Daytona. Quite scarce.. but it is a Daytona in drag...

Hell.. a 328 without ABS is easily doable in your range too.

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

You forgot the 76-80 400i and the 250GTE 2+2, also pretty "cheap" for a Ferrari.

Also, in a couple more years the 1985-91 Testarossa prices will be pretty depressed. They are losing about 10% a year right now.

andys120

I can't believe I forgot the 250GT2+2, an early favorite of mine. It's more or less the same as a 330 GTE.

Brentwood, this week's AUTOWEEK has an item about a 365 GTC with a convertible "chop-job" selling for I think around $28k.

im_brentwood

A mere $28K?

Id avoid it. The idea of someone cutting up one of those cars... I bet its as stable as a 356 speedster without floorpans.

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

You mean you saw a 356 that still had floorpans?

jrosasmc

Why? Did the Porsches from the 50s and 60s have an early reputation for bad rusting?

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Italians actually invented rust right after WW II, and licensed it to the Germans in the 50s and 60s.

andys120

wasn't it? Before that you could lose the entire front suspension of your 911 to the Rust Monster.

To be fair everything rusted badly in those days
but Porsches were particularly notorious as I recall.

tsaupe1

Actually rust was an ancient Roman invention. However, the recipe was lost after the Vandal invasion of 22AD and only rediscovered after WWII.

On a more serious note, When the Ferrari market went stratospheric in the 1980's and anything with a Cavallino Rampante on it was worth a million bucks, alot of the less desirable cars got cut up and rebodied as spyders and GTOs.

250 GTEs in particular became fake 250 GTO's. Too bad, they are such nice cars in their own right. So the chopped 365 GTC isn't that surprising. I doubt, now that the market has come back to earth, that any of these cars are going to sell for what the conversion cost. Assuming that the work was quality, which is always an "iffy" assumption.

Tom

dgraves1

Does a Fiat Dino count as a low cost Ferrari? I saw one advertized for mid $20K a few weeks ago.

Mr_Shiftright

No, it's a Fiat through and through but it does get a boost by the association with Ferrari, wherein Fiat got to produce the Jano-designed V-6 so that Ferrari could satisfy homologation rules for racing.

The first V-6 engines, the 2.0 liters, are junk and make excellent boat anchors. The 2.4 engines are much much better, and tucked into the Coupe body you get a very interesting piece of autombobile for not much money, maybe $12K-15K tops. The Spiders cost more money, upwards of $25K or more for a nice one, and that's a lot to spend for a Fiat. But the Spiders are so much more attractive than the Coupes that they might be worth it. Only 424 Spiders were made in 2.4 liter I believe, so it's slim pickins'.

So to my mind, if you want one of these, buy a nice 2.4 Spider or forgeddaboudit!!

andys120

I prefer the Fiat Dino Spider's style to that of the Ferrari Dino. Although I really like both.

Too bad about the motors, Shifty

Mr_Shiftright

The Spider is beautiful, really beautiful. The coupe is an "acquired taste" at best.

Yeah, well, sometimes these low production alloy engines just don't work out,especially if they are putting out some HP.

im_brentwood

Something about Fiat buyers and Ferrari engines does scare me a touch tho... haha.

I mean, I could just see it "A Tune-Up is HOW MUCH????"

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

I actually KNOW that! It's $750 for a Ferrari V6

speedshift

Just imagine what you would pay if you had to buy EIGHT spark plugs.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the labor is for all the fussing you have to do with valve clearances and carburator settings.

speedshift

Do pre-electronic ignition Ferraris have a dual point distributor? How often do you replace the timing belt, or is it a chain? Is there anything else that gets replaced or tweaked that wouldn't get attention on a Chevy? No loaded questions here, just curious.

im_brentwood

That cheap? Really?

Wait... a 246 Dino isnt $750 is it? If so...

HELL of a lot cheaper than a 2000GS tune-up. Those Baby Octopuses dont work cheap!

Bill