Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

andys120

Explorer/Suburban Country to me. Those cars would look a lot prettier in my driveway (you can't see another house from it)?/:^).

I was struck by how nicely the Rosso Red comes up in those photos and how attractive the somewhat odd-looking Enzo looks.

Meanwhile Keith Martin (AUTOWEEK) reports that values for the F40 are rising. When they first came out they sometimes went for double the MSRP of $500k.
One recently auctioned at $380k, a rise from the low 200s where they've languished in recent years. The F40 is the last "true" Ferrari (designed and built when Il Commendatore was alive).

tsaupe1

I wouldn't mind if my driveway looked like that! Sure makes the Saturn, or what ever it is, in the background stand out doesn't it.

Regarding the F40, I've heard that they are beasts to drive unless you're very experienced. As most were bought by those who couldn't handle them, quite a few of F40s have become garage queens. In this area I've only seen one on the road, that was at an owners outing last summer. Even at the Monterey Concorso Italiano, one of the ultimate Ferrari love-ins, there are usually only one or two. In the right hands they must be awesome!

Andys120, did you know that the last Ferrari road car that Enzo had active design input on was the 308 GT4 Dino? He worked personally with Bertone on several aspects including seating and the interior layout.

Tom

andys120

ajvdh

I've seen two in the flesh - the first when they were in production. We were in a village near Modena, and one came snorting through the square in the middle of town. The other, just a few months ago.

We had a guy bring one out to the Xmas week open track days. I thought he was a little nuts for doing so. The track doesn't have an abundance of runoff, plus the low cost of the event brings out everyone who's jonesin' for a little winter seat time. So you find yourself out there sandwiched between a novice in a stock Miata, and an experienced racer in a Z06 prepped for T1. Mirrors are your friends. We had a guy bend a freshly restored Olds/Lola pretty badly (hot blood, cold tires, bad mix).

The first day, he was trying to get people to pay $300 for a 15 minute ride in the passenger seat. I don't know if he had any takers. I do know that he was driving *very* conservatively - understandably.

New years eve, on the other hand... There were relatively few cars, and he was giving a ride to a local news anchor (who herself was out there getting some race instruction in a 911). He let it rip for a couple of laps, and I timed it so he'd pass me on the front straight. I was so glad my windows were open. What a sound.

They are amazing beasts. One look inside, and you realize that it's pretty darn near a race car.

andys120

for a few days I thought no one wanted to talk about the incredible F40. Granted not many have even seen this car but it's a lot more interesting than that endless Daewoo thread IMHO.

dgraves1

There's a Daewoo thread!? Why?

I saw an F40 up close at an air show about 10 years ago. As mentioned, it ain't no luxury car. It seems barely streetable. I wouldn't want one as my only car, but it sure seems like it would be fun to drive once in a while.

argent

I'm clearly getting old, because the racier, track-biased cars seem less and less dreamy.

I even find myself liking the pictures I've seen of Pininfarina's 1980 Ferrari Pinin show car, a very sharp _four-door_ Ferrari (based on a 400i/412i, I believe). See http://mclellansautomotive.com/photos/B21262.jpg

Mr_Shiftright

I'm a little cranky about newer Ferraris, too, but not so much concerning styling, which is still pretty nice, but that the cars have become a high-tech platform with accompanying astronomical maintenance costs and zero options for any owner fiddling.

andys120

as sexy as an F40 or Enzo might be they really have no use off the race track. Just give me a Modena Spider or even a 456M, please! Pretty please!

Even if they F40 isn't my cup of tea it's a lot more fun to talk about than Daewoos (I have no idea why, Don).

BTW- I once built a detailed 1/24th scale F40. It makes a great model cuz you can see the super-detailed engine thru the clear engine cover.

argent

For me, the aesthetics are a large part of the appeal of these Italian cars. Whatever pros and cons they have to drive, or to run (and I've never driven a Ferrari), I could be made very happy with some of the Pininfarina prancing horses simply as a glorious piece of automotive sculpture.

blacktalon

So, are there any "Drive a Ferrari" events like these:

http://www.kelkoo.co.uk/b/a/sbs/uk/activities/keywords/Drive+a+Fe- - - rrari/category/Gift+Experience/100222623.html

in the US, where you can drive a Ferrari on a track? When I do a Google search, I get thousands of hits, but they're all in the UK.

I know you can rent a Ferrari (for big $$$) in LA or Vegas, but that's not quite the same thing...

Mr_Shiftright

Best thing would be to go to club events and strike up some friendships. You'll get a ride sooner or later. But be warned, you will get infected with the Ferrari bug once you've done the laps at 9/10ths and no other car will ever "do it" for you like that.

dgraves1

A white Testarossa? Bleh. I don't think I've ever seen one but it looks pretty bad in my mind. I think I have only seen red (of course), black, yellow and silver. I'd probably choose black if given a choice. I usually like traditional red in Ferraris but on a TR, that is a lot of red.

andys120

for any of the street race Ferraris from the 288GTO to the Enzo but for more "ordinary"
Ferrari street cars I like Black or silver or even the other signature color Fly Yellow.

I painted a scale Testa Rossa silver and IMO it looks as good as a TR can look. The cheese grater styling hasn't aged particularly well (rare for PF-bodied Ferraris). The black does help cloak the controversial grating.

tsaupe1

A lot of people seem to forget that Red was the designated racing colour for Italy and that was the reason racing Ferraris were red. The early road cars through the sixties and even early seventies were almost never red. Enzo reserved that colour for the track.

There was a wide variety of colours in use, some of them pretty striking. Last year at Pebble there was a 212 inter coupe in black and orange that was gorgeous. You might have seen it in Forza an issue or two back.

Andys120, I suppose you're right about the TR styling. I still find it enormously attractive but it does bespeak a certain time. In many ways I think the 308/328 GTB/S series has stood up better. Frankly, some of the newer cars, especially the 355 strike me as a bit bland. Great cars, but not terribly stylish.

Andys120, you've mentioned model building a couple of times. Have you ever built one the Pocher kits? I've always had a hankerin' to try one, but I'm just not that committed yet. what sort of building do you do?

Tom

andys120

The Alfa 8C2300 w. Touring spider coachwork. I found it exremely tedious on account of poor parts fit and unclear instructions. (I added working head and tailights.). They may have improved those over the years. Most of the scale Ferraris I've built have been 1/24th scale kits by Tamiya, Fujimi, Italeri and Revell-Monogram.

FYI Tom-Fujimi has an excellent 1/24 kit of the 328 GTS. Nowadays I work mostly on 1/18th scale diecast built-ups. These can be taken apart and superdetailed. Unfortunately Ferrari has a deal with Mattel "Hot Wheels" which makes poor quality diecasts. Kyosho does have a fantastic Daytona coupe and a decent 365 BB.

tsaupe1

Andys120, I'm surprised to hear that about Pocher. I guess at the cost of the kits you would assume that everything is on a better standard.

If you don't count having owned two lotuses, I haven't built a kit in years. Maybe it's time to look into the Fujimi 328 you mention. Are they readily available in hobby stores or is it better to look on line?

Tom

andys120

for a while but I think you can still get it.
Try Hobby Emporium in Tyngsboro, Mass they're usaually well stocked w Fujimis.

If you get hold of it I can give you some advice. Like the Pochers some of the parts fits are problematic. It should be nothing you can't handle if you've built Loti (Sevens?).

speeds2much

Anyone besides me anxious for the arrival of the Ferrari 460, the replacement for the 456GT? From what I've read, it's rumored to be AWD and the horsepower is increasing to 500, putting the 0-60 times into the 4.3 second area. Also, it's getting far better weight distribution than the 456 had, and more knee room for passengers in the back seats. I'm sure that Ferrari will update the interior, which looks very dated in the 456. I looked at a 456 in a showroom at Canary Wharf in London, and even the salesman admitted that the interior was dated...I was disappointed about the interior, actually. 460 should be a car of dreams when it arrives....

andys120

some of the photoshop guesses that I've seen do nothing for me. I rather like the 456M just as it is but then I've always liked the "gentlemen's express" four-seaters going back to the
250 GT 2+2/GTE

For looks (not performance) I prefer the 459M to the 550/575 with their excess of scoops and slots.

speeds2much

Now that you mention it, I've had the same nagging concern about the new exterior, but I'm guessing that Ferrari will make certain the real car looks stunning "in the flesh."

tsaupe1

for one of the best disguise jobs I've ever seen on a prototype. At least, I hope it's heavily disguised.

I'm curious to see if the car is going to be AWD. Ferrari experimented with AWD back in the early eighties with a car designated (I think) 360P. I saw the monocoque for it in Maranello last summer. For what ever reason, they never went forward with the project. It was a mid 12 two seater which looked like it was based on the Boxer.

Tom

tsaupe1

I took the 328 out for a run on a little travelled three lane highway on Thursday. Being very careful at moderately high speeds with very little traffic and excellent visibility, due to the long straight sections of road.

I was pleasantly surprised (again) by how polite people are when they see a Ferrari coming up in their mirrors. Almost without fail they move over and let the car by. Of course there's always one (inevitably) mini van which is camped in the left lane going 10MPH below the speed limit.

This phenomenon makes me wonder what it is about the car that makes people move so willingly and politely when they won't do the same if I'm in my pickup truck? My wife says it's because they want to see the car. She usually adds that if they waited they'd get a much better look when it's sitting on the side of the road in front of the cruiser!

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

I think your wife is correct.

328 is one of my all time favorites...a vast improvement over the 308 but without the complexities of the 348 (and service hassles). Could be my all time favorite "affordable" Ferrari right now.

jrosasmc

Ah, so the 348 is somewhat of a hassle when it comes time to do maintenance and repairs, huh?

tsaupe1

jrosasmc, the early 348s had some real teething problems, most of which were fixed in the later cars, Bear in mind that the 328 is the last iteration of the 308 series engine which started with the 308 gt4 in '74 was well sorted by the 328.

My understanding is that the 348 is more difficult to work on with more maintenance requiring engine removal. This, of course, means more mechanic's hours and bigger bills.

As is often the case with Ferraris, the indiviual car can have a lot to do with maintenance as well. Just the other day I spoke with someone who had just sold their 328 and bought a 348 Challenge, he said the maintenance history was "uneventful."

I love the looks of the 328. It's a perfect refinement of the 308. A bit softer, with the front end (for the American market) finally resolved. I agree with Mr. Shiftright, it's a great road car.

Tom

jrosasmc

Do you know if they ever used a 328 like yours in "Magnum, P.I.?"

tsaupe1

Jrosasmc, I know they used at least four 308s. If you look closely you can see the subtle changes from car to car from a carbed model to a GTSi and finally to a QV. I read somewhere that they used a 328 for the last season. I also vaguely remember seeing an episode with him driving a 328 instead of a 308.

All the cars had modified seats because Selleck is tall. 6' 4" I think. All the padding had to be removed from the driver's seat. The seat rails were removed and the seat bolted right to the floor. Notice you never see him in the car with the top on it.

I'm 6' 1" and, with the top on, I can always tell when I need a haircut.
Tom

jrosasmc

Great information that you've provided about these lovable Ferraris; now I know why Selleck never drove the cars with the top on.

By the way, looking at your profile, I see that you are head of the Theater Department at Anna Maria College in Mass. I go to St. Michael's College in Vermont, and I'm just curious to know if you know any theater professors there. One well-known prof by the name of Joanne Rathgeb died a few years back.

Mr_Shiftright

I believe you have to remove the 348 engine for just about every major service and repair, so I hardly think the 348s service history will remain "uneventful" at $6,000+ a whack.

Early 308s had teething problems as well. The 80s/81s were notorious oil burners. If you see a low mileage "bargain" 80-81 that hasn't had engine work, you'd best stay away.

tsaupe1

I don't know why the early 308s had oil problems. It's the same engine that is in the 308 GT4 and I can attest that they use no more oil than any other high revving engine. I had no oil burning in mine at all.

Of course it's a well known fact that all Ferraris blow a little smoke at start up but certainly not anything to be considered excessive. If the amount of smoke is excessive or doesn't go away in a few seconds, then you've got big problems.

Regarding low mileage engine work, it's amazing how many Ferraris come up for sale just before "the major" is due. Quite a few owners who can, let's say marginally, afford the car try to duck that bill.

Mr. Shiftright, the 348 owner I spoke with was driving a Challenge car with track history. Since my assumption would be that it had more service due to track time, its engine may be better looked after than most road only 348s. However, the definition of "uneventful" can also depend on the depth of the owner's pockets!

Jrosasmc, Sorry, I can't say that I know any of the profs at St. Michaels. Colleges, as I'm sure you know, often become rather insular worlds.

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Definitely the 80 & 81 308s have defective engines. WEll known and documented problem, corrected in the 4-valve models. No one is quite sure why it happened, since, as you say, the engine had already been developed. Something to do with the switch from carbs to fuel injection possibly

tsaupe1

In about six weeks time we'll be back in Italy and will spend a few days, again, in Modena and Maranello. This year we're hoping to get tours of both Lamborghini and the Ferrari factory. Lamborghini should be easy as we have an in, but Ferrari can be like arranging a tour of Fort Knox. Anything in particular I can keep an eye out for? Last year we lucked out and saw the Enzo being tested prior to announcement. Maybe we'll get a peek at the new 456!

andys120

How does anyone get so lucky to get to Maranello twice? Rumor has it that Audi is going to build a 911 competitor based on the Gallardo. See if you can find out anything about that.

Audi has their work cut out for them. The Dino 246 was designed to go after the 911 market and was not exactly comparable in sales.

Sant Agata, I think, is near Bologna which is said to have a lot of Communists and the best food in Italy, that's saying something, check it out.

tsaupe1

Being able to go back to Maranello. My wife, who is half Italian and I decided that we really wanted to go back to Venice for a longer stay. that's half the battle. We made a good friend in Modena last year and we've stayed in touch. So, if we're going to Modena to visit him, Maranello is only a few miles away. Besides, I can't be that close and not go!

Sant Agata is nearly half way between Modena and Bologna. Although we've flow in and out of Bologna several times, we've never had the pleasure to spend much time in the city. I think this trip will be the same as we're flying to Paris and then taking the night train (after a short stay) to Venice. After a week in Venice we have a few days in Modena and then off to the British Grand Prix.

The food across the Emilia Romano is incredible. Even in the smallest, most out-of-the way places we had great meals. I've almost shed the pounds put on last year! Time to start again.

I hadn't heard of the new Audi. I don't know. The Germans are great at performance but seem to lack passion and elan. Perhaps now that VW owns Lamborghini some of that Italian style will filter over. We'll see.

Tom

Andys120, I seem to remember that you were in Italy last year as well. Did you get to Maranello?

tsaupe1

Well, the Italian Car Day at the Museum of Transportation was a wash out. I stayed home and watched the race instead. I heard that only about a dozen cars showed. However, the highlight was that they had an Enzo there and with so few people you really had a chance to get up close and spend time inspecting it. Drat! Guess I should have gone to it in the rice burner.

I had a scary experience yesterday while running the car on the interstate. I was in the left lane moving just slightly (really)faster than traffic when I passed a mother and son in a minivan. I saw the kid react to the car slowed next to them so that he could get a look, then continued on my way. Looking in the rear view mirror I saw the minivan chasing me. Okay, I slowed again. The kid was bouncing in the seat pointing and the mother was now watching him and not the road. Suddenly she started veering into me. Nearly got the rear quarter before I got out of her way. At that point she nearly drove into the barrier. What is it with minivans? She nearly hit the car and worse than that, nearly killed herself and her son.

It's not the first time someone gawking at the car has almost driven into it. I guess it's the price you pay for driving an exotic.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually this is a common phenomenon that I've heard about from many drivers of very exotic cars who use them occasionally on the highway.

It's a real danger and a common human fault apparently to inadvertently veer toward the object you are fixated upon.

This is apparently exactly what happened to Buckminster Fuller's amazing Dymaxion car when it crashed and someone was killed. The bad publicity killed the car too.

tsaupe1

I've been informed by a non-poster to this board that I sound like a martyr in my last post. Well, we all have our crosses to bear and mine must be Ferrari ownership and minivans.

Mr. Shiftright, it's nice to hear from someone else who's heard of Buckminster Fuller, let alone the Dymaxion car. I've seen photographs and a short film clip of the vehicle but found it very hard to judge the scale of it. Do you have any further info? It looks to me about the size of an old VW microbus.

Tom

ajvdh

Dymaxion info:

http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/car.html

Mr_Shiftright

The world's first minivan in 1934!

No, bigger than a WV bus---I saw one (there is only one left I think, used to be in Harrah's---no, wait, maybe Ford Museum has the other one---DOH I forget....anyway #3 is the dead one I think).

The Italians made a similar looking car WAY BACK in 1910 but the name escapes me.

Speaking of Ferraris, I used to baby-sit one a few years back in Marin, a PF250...I used to love driving it through the tunnel that goes to the Marin Headlands---what a racket!!
Bicycles use the same tunnel (it's a one way road that changes at every light to the OTHER way) and I loved to buzz them. (at a safe distance of course).

fredmcmurray

There was one in Harrah's when I was there a few years ago.

tsaupe1

Thanks for the info. I'll have to see if I can find where the vehicle is. Wasn't the bulk of Harrah's collection sold off a few years ago?

The noise a Ferrari makes is beautiful music but it is loud. My car has a Tubi exhaust system and I often set off the theft alarms on other cars. Especially in parking garages and, for some reason especially Saabs.

Gosh those Swedish cars are sensitive!

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, yeah, I could set off a whole block of alarms. It was LOUD but in a nice way, not in a Harley way. Very high strung music. People can't resist, you get a hundred eyeballs glued to you--probably because Americans aren't used to engines sounding like that. they're thinkin' NASCAR.

andys120

Just got the July issue and they have an extensive road test of the new ubercar from Ferrari, looks worth a look. Let's discuss when we've all had a chance to read it.

Evidently, they were able to do 1500 miles on a privately owned one. Mr. S, who do I have to kill to get a job there?

Mr_Shiftright

R&T is kind of a low-key family place. I think you just sort of start free-lancing and worm your way in slowly.

andys120

Rumors are still flying around Europe thjat VAG head Bernd Pischetsreider intends to make a bid to acquire a majority interest in Ferrari along with Alfa and Maserati.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/insiders/0306/05/autos-178861.htm

Lienert mentions many problems that stand in the way of such a deal but the biggest may be VAG's current sales decline. They need to tend to their knitting.

tsaupe1

Finally found the magazine on the newstands. Andys120 must be a subscriber. They certainly seemed to like the car didn't they. What struck me, over and above the amazing performance figures, is how apparently easy the car is to live with. I certainly can't imagine driving a car like that through even suburban traffic but according to R&T it was remarkably easy.

Having seen the car in the flesh I agree with them that no photograph seems to do it justice. Although I wouldn't call it a "pretty" car, in the sense of, say, a Lusso, its purposeful design is far from ugly.

Car and Driver also has a test this month. Another willing owner who drives his cars as opposed to watching them collect dust. Wait until you read some of the expendables costs. How about $75 a quart for oil. According to Ferrari, use the recommended oil or they won't warranty the engine. I can't remember if they said brake pads (ceramic) were $300 or $600 per set. Either way, I guess I'll stop complaining about parts prices for a while.

FYI if anyone is interested there is an Italian Car day this Sunday, June 15 in Milford NH. If the sun shines, I'll be there.

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm..$75 a quart for oil? And how much to put it in?

fredmcmurray

I just got my July issue with the Enzo in the mail yesterday! Lowly rack buyers getting their issues before me! Wait til I tell them I know people in high places at R&T (yes, that means you, Shifty). Heads will roll, I tell you!
As a great a car as it is, it just doesn't hack it for me aesthetically. It looks too awkward. The nose is contrived looking and the back end is way too big. It really looks like something one these specialty supercar makers would come up with.

Mr_Shiftright

If you know me personally you do get your magazine later than usual, so it's working!