Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

tsaupe1

Best of luck with the new car, may it provide endless hours of pleasure for you. You certainly are a brave man though, driving an Fcar in Manhattan! Enjoy every minute.

forzaroma

thanks for the comments. actually the 575's minimum revs are so well calibrated that to move away from a light all you have to do is let the clutch out without even touching the accelerator. the car is virtually impossible to stall. the car has very few gadgets but the one thing i love is that you can see the tire pressure in each tire by tabbing through a little screen in the middle of the dash. the tires start at 32 psi and you can see the pressure rise up to 37 if you are on a long trip or driving hard or on a really hot day. maybe i'm just sad but i think that is really cool.

forzaroma

for those of you that asked about the f1 gearchange DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT unless all you plan to only use it on a track or live next to a freeway with no traffic. the f1 does not work in the real world. let me give you a few examples. i owned an f1 modena for only about 3 months and it made me want to kill myself. assuming you want to drive the car everyday, which you absolutely should the f1 simply does not work in traffic. irrespective of whether you have it in manual or automatic mode, when you pull away slowly the computer revs the engine to about 3,000 revs and then slowly slips the clutch. as you can imagine this is infuriating especially if you are only moving 10 feet forward in traffic. also after about 20 minutes the clutch starts overheating. to warn you that the clutch is overheating, every time the clutch is engaged (i.e. when you are moving forward) 3 high-pitched beeps about a second long and about a second apart come from the dash. so imagine, not only are you annoyed to be stuck in traffic, every time you nudge forward 10 feet the engine is roaring and on top of that the damn thing is beeping. imaging how quickly that becomes annoying "roooar, beep beep beep, roooar, beep, beep, beep .." you get the idea. you spend your whole time wishing you had gone for the manual. then to add insult to injury if the traffic doesn't clear after a further 20 minutes the car refuses to move until the clutch cools down which take about half an hour. plus they charge you a fortune for the f1 option plus you lose one of the most beatiful features of any ferrari which is the amazing open gate stick shift. whatever you do don't go for an f1, you will regret it. to be fair i should say that if you are on a track or have a clear road, if you put the sport setting you get amazingingly quick gearchanges that sound like gunshots, but i promise you that you can replicate gearchanges that fast with practice. as i said at the beginning if you want a car for track days only then do an f1 under all other cirumsatnces go for a manual.

andys120

thanks forza. Having built a bunch of scale model Ferraris, I like the unique visual cues that set them apart from other cars. The open shift gate is one of those.

andys120

is quite a bit different from those recorded in Edmund's long term test of the 575. I'm guessing the reason for your positive experience is dealer service. Where'd you get your car, Zumbach?

forzaroma

i think the long term test was actually of the 550 so maybe ferrari addressed many of the issues for the 575. my positive experience is due to the fact that apart from putting in oil and gas and checking tire pressures i have had to do abosolutely nothing except enjoy the car. the one time i went to the service dept of ferrari of long island they were very helpful unlike their sales department who never even returned my calls (i clearly did not buy the car there !)

andys120

There's an incredible amount of competition on the horizon for the makers of the cavalini. It seems as if the demise of the 90's boom has done little to lessen the amount of competition for top-of the line Sports, GT and Supercars.

When I was growing up if you wanted one you of those you went to Ferrai, Maserati or Aston-Martin. Porsche wasn't even in the picture at that level and only Ferrari offered twelve cylinders. Now you have challengers up the wazoo including some with storied names-

Aston-Martin is doing quite well and the upcoming
DB9 could pose a serious challenge to the 575 and it's next gen.

Lamborghini is prospering under Audi AG ownership
with a serious challenger to the Modena in the Gallardo. Meanwhile Audi's own LeMans Quattro will be Gallardo-based.

Porsche's GT3 and upcoming V10 Carrera GT are going right after the Modena Stradale and 575 respectively.

McLaren Cars, now a subsidiary of Daimler Chrysler
is building a new line of F-cars to challenge Ferrari from top to bottom.

F1-a new supercar will be capable of taking on the Enzo.

F2-a GT will go for the 575/DB9 market.

F3-a sportscar aims for the 911Turbo/360 Modena group.

Everybody wants a piece of Ferrari, what should Ferrari do?

habitat1

...hardly needs to worry about competition. As a former 930 Turbo owner, the current 911 Turbo / GT3 are no more competiton to the 360 Modena than the 930 Turbo was to the 328 or Testarosa, even though it was faster than the latter. None of the other exotics, no matter how unearthly their performance capabilities become, are going to match the "Ferrari" mystique and heritage. Ever.

In fact, the rest of the world needs to worry about Ferrari. In the past 18+ months, my neighbor has put 30,000 trouble free miles on his 360 Modena 6-speed, the same amount I've put on my M5. He drives a mostly highway commute to his company offices, but is not afraid to drive it anytime or anywhere he doesn't need to haul the family. And although he has paid a fair amount for routine service, he has had no problems whatsoever with the car. This was unheard of 10-20 years ago, when a 10 year old Ferrari with 30k miles was considered "high mileage".

In case you missed it, the 400 richest people in America saw a 10% rise in their cummulative net worth. There are far more people with a current net worth of $500 million or more than there will be Ferrari's imported to the US over the next 5 years. And since my poor neighbor is only worth about a fifth of that figure, it's a pretty sure bet that the demand for Ferrari's will continue to outpace the supply. He's been offered $30k more than he paid for his. Not bad, getting paid a dollar a mile to drive a Ferrari!

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's a good deal because that's about what it costs to drive one, $1 a mile.

habitat1

With all due respect, how many 360 Modena owners that you know personally are you basing that comment on? My neighbor has spent approximately $3,500 on service on his first 30,000 miles. Although that's $3,500 more than I've spent on my M5 with BMW's free maintenance plan, that is less than a typical Honda Accord would depreciate in one year. Given that the 360 is worth more than he paid for it, he's ahead of the Accord buyer. The other 355/360 owners I know haven't put nearly the miles on theirs as my neighbor has, but it does appear that the 360 in particular is a new breed relative to daily drivability.

I'm not seriously suggesting that anyone with less than a high 7 or 8+ figure net worth consider a Ferrari as cheap transportation, but I think you need to reevaluate your assessment of the 360. I regret to admit that I spent a hell of a lot more than $3,500 over 30,000 miles maintaining my 930 Turbo.

fredmcmurray

Wow, I could drive a Ferrari for free? Time to refinance the house.

forzaroma

dear andys120
i can't really see the db9 being in the same class as the 575
even aston are describing the db9 as a "compact coupe", more like an overpriced 911 with less heritage

merc1

A couple of corrections here. The plan (merely on the table at this point) is for Mercedes-Benz to acquire McLaren. If this even happens it's a very long way off, at least 2007 or later. It's far from a done deal. We're talking about a German company buying yet another British one, one that isn't in trouble. McLaren is going to be much tougher to aquire and control. MB and MCL nearly fell out on the design of the SLR, so you can imagine if MCL became a subsidiary of Mercedes. Though I must admit I like the sound of the plan..with three superbrands.......Mercedes being at entry level position (relative) and Maybach and McLaren at the top. Who would ever thought it, two brands above Mercedes-Benz in the Daimler hierarchy.

The Aston-Martin DB9 isn't a Ferrari 575M competitor, thats the Vanquish's role. The DB9 is more or less aimed at the Mercedes CL55/600/65 trio, the new Bentley Continental GT and upcoming Ferrari 465M's (gorgeous classic) replacement, you know the GT class. The Porsche Carrera GT is a Enzo compeitor, as it will probably humiliate the 575M on the track. The upcoming Aston-Martin V8 Vantage is the Porsche 911 competitor.

All in all it's a good time to be on that last epn2 mentioned, or actually anywhere near it!!!!

Ferrari has the ability to print money, and has had it this way for quite a while now. I don't see it changing either, at least until it's competitors make truly superior cars for years and years...consistantly. Even then they'll never undo the Ferrari magic.

Speaking of which, what does this room think of the Bentley Continental GT? There is an article in the current (OCT) issue of CAR magazine in which that guy (forget his name right now, he does stories for CAR and Automobile Mag) got the Conti to do 206 mph. This car is aimed at the 456M GT/A. Ferrari is set to debut the 456's replacement at Detroit in January, it should be a stunner.

M

Mr_Shiftright

Most newer Ferrari owners I know have had very positive experiences. I think the Edmunds review was a database of One, and while I'm sure it was accurate, it may not have been typical. And anyway, Edmunds did get very good dealer service for its problems.

Mr_Shiftright

30K is a lot for a Ferrari. That will drag the resale value down considerably. It is rather atypical that way, how they behave in the marketplace. As ghastly as it sounds, a 4-5 year old Ferrari with say 80K on it is basically a parts car and a very very hard re-sale.

Sometimes with a brand new Ferrari model, if you can keep the miles under 2,000 or so, you can turn it for a quick profit until the supply line catches up.

andys120

For mixing up the DB9 and the Vanquish. I think Merc is right about the takeover of McLaren as well. It is some years off but I imagine it will happen.

The new Bentley is interesting, I think I'd have to see it before I decide whether it might be competitive. It certainly specs out nicely. There is no doubt that VAG plans to get into the high-end sports/GT/Supercar markets in a big way.

I forgot to mention the hideously expensive (and oddly styled 1000 HP (claimed) Bugatti Veyron.

I agree with you guys that the Ferrari name has a mystique beyond compare. I'm just not sure that the upcoming generation feels that way. Lamborghini Countachs and Diablos, for example, seem to be on posters in the rooms of every sixteen y/o male.

merc1

I've tried my best to like the new Bentley Continental GT, but try as I might it looks like a giant VW Beetle or a giant shoe to me. I remain impressed with its performance, engine etc, but I can't stand to looks of it. Funny thing is at this years Detroit autoshow an older (read: very rich) guy heard me telling a friend what I though about it's looks and said "yes son it does". Very spooky, as after he said that he literally disappeared into the crowd.....

Believe it or not I think Aston-Martin is the one to watch in the futrure. Lamborghini's own rariety hurt it I think, because when I was a kid I too had a Countach on my wall, but I never saw one outside of an autoshow until I was grown, unlike Ferraris which are possible to see on good summer night in downtown Chicago.

M

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but Diablos and Countachs don't win Grand Prix races.

fredmcmurray

They do on Playstation.

fredmcmurray

As I was getting on the freeway today, I saw, sitting on the back of a flat bed trailer, my favorite car - a Ferrari Daytona Spider. It dawned on me that I had never actually seen one before. I fell in love with it on TV and in photographs. My first thought was that it might well be a fake. Traffic being what it is here in the LA area at rush hour, I had some time to look it over. It appeared to be a 30 year old, very original car in around #3 condition. Far from a concours car but basically straight and clean. The paint looked a litle tired, as did the chrome. The hood appeared to not fit too well. Not being an expert, I tried to find something that would tell me if it were a fake or not. The one clue I picked up was a transverse, multi-leaf, rear spring. I never would have thought that a Ferrari would have that arrangement but, on the other hand, I didn't think a Corvette, which I believe is the usual donor chassis for the fakes, had such an arrangement either (I know the C5 has a transverse mounted, single leaf, fibeglass spring but I assume that C4 chassises are generally used for the replicas).
Anyone know if the transverse, multi-leaf rear spring is correct for a Daytona?

tsaupe1

The Daytona has independent upper lower A arms with coil over springs.

I'm hard pressed to think that any of the new "super" cars are going to make a huge dent in Ferraris dominance of the niche. For one thing, there are just too many of them coming out. The new Lambo will probably cut into 360 sales until the 460 is announced, however, there is still a one year waiting list for a new 360 and the new Lambo hasn't arrived well after its introduction which suggests teething pains.

I'm not sure that Aston Martin has enough market share, at least in the US, to have serious effect. AM remains a relative unknown in this country. Mention Aston to all but the cognicenti and people still think of the James Bond car. Not the new one, the old DB5. They also suffer from the old, and perhaps undeserved, reputation that dogs most English cars, unreliability. This is a reputation that Ferrari has successfully overcome.

Porsche will always have a good market share because its reputation is built on competition success. Something it shares with Ferrari and McLaren. Where McLaren is different is that its rep is built solely through F1. Let's face it, that's another finite audience.

There was an article, last week I think, in the Wall Street Journal about the plummeting sales of high end cars. The only company that made a significant gain was Ferrari with nearly an 18% increase in sales over last year. The marque has a magical name which carries it through tough economic times. I'm not sure that's true of any of the other contenders except Porsche.

There will always be cars that do something better than any given Ferrari model. There are very few that carry the same mystique, marque recognition and, frankly, prestige, that Ferrari carries.

Tom

fredmcmurray

So I guess it was a fake? Do Corvettes have transverse rear leafs?

carnut4

Yes Corvettes have transverse rear leaf springs. What you saw was a fake-sounds like on a Corvette chassis.

andys120

IIRC there were only about 27 Daytona Spiders built by Scaglietti. The are probably 10 or 15 times as many fake Spiders with Corvette chassis as well as some "converted" from 365 GTB/4s.

Ironically the Daytona was derided by some (including my cousin-a 275 GTB owner)as an "Italian Corvette". Some didn't like the styling but I did and think it's stood the test of time very well.

fredmcmurray

Maybe the beat up pick-up truck tow vehicle and open flatbed trailer should have been my first clue. A real one would probably get a classier, more secretive ride.
The thing that threw me was that it really looked like a fairly well preserved, 30 year old car rather than a relatively recent replication.

andys120

They're so seldom seem on the streets that you have to assume it's fake until proven otherwise.

Another fake that's around...

California Spiders that use the chassis and motor from a 2+2 (250/330GTE)with replica 250 California bodies...works for me, at least they're really Ferraris V12 and all.

Mr_Shiftright

You'd be somewhat foolish I think to tow a genuine Daytona Spider on an open flatbed unless it was a dire emergency.

Some of the fakes are pretty good from 20 feet but usually they get the proportions wrong unless they are actual knock off bodies from original plans or forms.

One tip off I use is that fakes always seem to have the Ferrari insignias (how DARE they!) in all the wrong places.

fredmcmurray

What is the going price for a clean Daytona Spyder these days? I'm thinking they were pushing 7 figures at one point but have settled to more like $250K more recently.

tsaupe1

General consensus on an original, factory Spyder in restored condition is between 275K and 350K. Probably closer to 250K for a Scaglietti conversion and 175K to 200K for other conversions. There was one West Coast shop that did several conversion whose work is right up there with Scaglietti and would probably pull the same money. I can't remember their name. Mr. Shiftright, do you know?

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, was it something like Straman? (Might not have that name quite right, but close....).

Personally I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a "chop", but I do see the appeal of the car.

andys120

they did a bunch of them. I'm a big convertible/ Spider fan myself but the Berlinetta Daytona is so flawlessly styled that the "chop" is almost criminal IMO.

The roofline and side window treatment on that coupe is timeless, in fact it's a better looking, more modern design than the Maranello. Looks faster to me too.

Mr_Shiftright

Generally when the Italians design something they are looking at the entire object. I remember one Ital designer talking about how he stands on a tall ladder when designing a car so he can even view it from the top.

So chopping a car like that does in a sense violate the intentions of the designer.

Most chopped cars look pretty bad with the top UP but some look okay with the top down. It really depends I thinkn on how the trunk line follows the rear window area.

I always liked how the Italians manage to get that "stretched skin" look on their design, as if the metal were actually under a kind of tension, rather than blobbed on like clay as some unmentioned cars look.

tsaupe1

Yes, Straman!

Scaglietti claims he eschews drawings and plans and designs solely by eye. Considering that his work as a coach builder started when bodies were still being pounded out over tree stumps, this seems more than probable. Indeed, there's no reason to doubt it.

Sergio Pininfarina made the statement that "it's all in the proportions. Just looking at the Daytona is a confirmation of this. the length of the hood and short cabin and deck lid with the height is just so right.

Perhaps that's why cars designed by them along with Guigario and a few others just seem to hold up over the years. Need a contrast? How about the Ghia design for VW. I would find it hard to describe the Karman Ghia as beautiful.

Mr_Shiftright

Germans don't know how to design anything that doesn't look German...that's why they hire Italians to do it for them. Head designer at Benz for oh so many years?----Bruno Sacco!

merc1

Which is exactly the person that they need to hire back. He did everything Benz from the 70's to the current S and CL. The W123, W126, W124, R129, W201 and so on....all classics.

M

andys120

To return to our discussion of the merits of Chop-top Spiders, I'll note that until recently it was the custom for Italian coachbuilders to have completely different styling on Coupe and Spider models, often by different designers.

There were many examples of this among postwar Sports and GT cars including Alfas, Fiats, Ferraris and Maseratis. In the mid 60s Bertone did coupes and Pininfarina the Spiders on several Fiats Alfas and Ferraris. I think it's because Italian stylists with their great sense of proportion and form understood that the styling requirements for coupe and Spider are quite different.

A great example of how the philosophy paid off would be the Ferrari 250 SWB and the 250 Spider California, two gorgeous contemporaneous designs on the same chassis and running gear.

Although I prefer the Coupe, the chop-top alternative on the Daytona actually works fairly well even with the top up. One that doesn't work is the 500 Barchetta, the chop-top Maranello which doesn't look good to me.

There's no hard and fast rule, I guess. Possibly the most successful coupe/spider duo, based on the same design is not Italian but British, the E-Type roadster and coupe. It's worth noting that the roadster carries a different windshield, shorter (and wider?) than the coupe.

Mr_Shiftright

And some XKE coupes are not atttractive. One or two lines or bulges in the wrong place and you can ruin a car.

My rule of thumb is this for a good design:

If you can strip the car of all trim and all paint and plant it in a wrecking yard on a pile of other cars, and it STILL looks like a pleasing shape, that's a good design.

andys120

Can I assume you're referring to the 2+2 or to post-67 Coupes? And shame on you, you know they are E-Types, not XKEs <picky-picky>

Good rule of thumb.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah but everyone in America calls them XKEs so why play the "wine snob" role--hahahaha.

Yes, the 2+2s appear rather homely to most people, in fact so much so that their prices are conspicuously less than the "normal" coupe.

If you have a 2+2 automatic in a bad color, it is virtually sale-proof.

Of course, Ferrari has their "orphans" as well--cars that never caught the imagination of buyers, stylistically speaking.

In Ferrari's case, the cars in question were not so much homely (I don't think they ever made a BAD-looking car) as too conservative and ordinary.

tsaupe1

The Mondial coupe comes to mind.

andys120

design, so I took a quick cruise thru Geoff Eaton's The Complete Ferrari which has everything....nope, still couldn't find one.

I'm sure that somewhere in the world there's an ugly
Cavillino that's been rebodied by Zagato or some other butcher but as issued by Maranello, you'd be hard pressed to find one.

The 365GTC and the 412 are kinda ordinary looking.

merc1

Well the 456 replacement has been announced in detail:

The Ferrari 612 Scaglietti.

http://www.imakenews.com/autospies/e_article000193463.cfm

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6521&sid=17- 3&n=156 (scroll down)

I'll reserve final judgement until I get to Detroit. It doesn't appear to be as stunning as I first thought. We'll see....

M

ajvdh

When did Chris "Satan" Bangle start moonlighting for Pinanfarina?

andys120

Actually it's the opposite of a Bangle design IMO, not adventurous enough.

ajvdh

That funky treatment on the sides reminded me of that goofy "flame surfacing" fetish of Bangle's.

andys120

but scooping a "cove" out of the side panels predates Bangle by a lot, e.g. C1 Corvettes and '65-'68 Mustangs.

I think it should be more pronounced myself.
Early sketches also showed narrower, more aggressive looking headlights for the 456 replacement.

Mr_Shiftright

Huh...looks like a 50 year old Ferrari....well, the more things change, the more...

The car seems totally retro. I wish they would keep going forward, not backward.

andys120

shows the same drawings of the 612..

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- e=coverstory&loc_code=index&content_code=01586387

These look much better on the printed page perhaps because they are larger and more detailed.
I particularly like the rear 3/4 view which show a nice voluptuous curve to the front fender which I like as well as the scallop on the sides.

To me this is good, if conservative styling, not particularly retro. The only resemblance I can see to the Ferraris of the 50s is in the general proportions and the grille. The headlights evoke those of the bespoke "Bergman" Ferari, which has been seen by few.

I'm anxious to see more of it, and perhaps in a different color. I don't think blue particularly flatters Ferraris ( notwithstanding DiMontemezolo's personal 360M).

I read that Ms. Bergman probably never even sat in the "Bergman" car as it was completed after she and Rosselini got divorced. Still the marriage couldn't have been a total loss if it produced not only that car (arguably one of the prettiest 50s Ferraris) but the awesomely gorgeous Isabella Rosselini.

tsaupe1

Andys120 I think that's exactly the right word to describe the new car. I was a bit disappointed when I first saw the pictures. The Pininfarina drawings seemed much more radical and exciting. I don't dislike the car, and certainly if one were gifted to me.....! I think we also need to remember that this really is a four seater. The rear seats may not be comfortable but even I can squeeze into them. That's something I can say about no other Ferrari except the 365/400 series sedans.

On another note, I thought I'd share a story. This past weekend was Parents weekend at the college and my theater students provided dinner entertainment with a murder mystery of their own creation. It's probably not much of a stretch to figure out that the Professor was going to be the victim. Anyway, the evening of the performance I went into what I thought was an empty lounge off the dining hall to load the stage revolver with blanks. While doing so I looked up and saw another student staring at me wide eyed. I said "Hello," finished my business and left. A few minutes later two security guards (who knew what was going on, of course) came to me saying that the student had come to them to say "Professor Saupe's gone postal! He's got a gun! Someone must have touched his Ferrari!"

Now I know why my car is the safest on campus!

andys120

that's for sure. Tom, the idea of a college prof driving a Ferrari still blows my mind. I'll bet it stands out amongst all those Volvos and Subarus.

More power to ya, FORZA!