Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

tsaupe1

SUVs. especially Jeeps! I had a Jeep for a while, boy, was I glad to see it go! Two Toyotas for the wife and I as practical winter vehicles. A new 4 Runner and a Tacoma pick up. Love 'em both. Toyotas may not be exotic, but they sure are bullet proof.

I have one fellow enthusiast on campus who is currently negotiating a 960 Porsche. It'll be great fun seeing who can be first out of the parking lot on those good days when classes get out early!

My wife and I are starting to look down the road a bit, perhaps a year-or-so away. We want to keep the 328. it's a great car and I have no compunction about driving it a lot. Lately we've been talking about a 12 cylinder though and so we're starting to research 2 possibilities that might fit in the picture price wise. They are a 365 GTC/4 and a 330 GTC.

The 365 is a car I've always thought was overlooked because of the Daytona. Great lines especially in the right color where the "clown lips" bumper is subdued. A 330 would be the absolute extreme of affordability, but who knows where the market is going in a year. Right now prices are holding pretty firm and some cars are starting to rebound. so we'll see what 10 to 12 months bring.

Any opinions or any models that you think I should also be considering. Obviously, this really would be a good weather weekend, special plate car. We'd be looking for extremely good examples of either one. Maybe something to give that first ride in, Andys120!

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, a 330 GTC is a great road car and much better looking than the 365 GTC/4. Also could be twice the price.

jrosasmc

Remember, I'm from Vermont, and we have two Volvos in the family. I drive a '93 850 and mom has a '99 S70. My dad really loathes his Jeep Cherokee.

Still in Europe and loving it. You were right- the pound sterling is very strong against the dollar now and I find it hard to conserve my dollars. Am planning to head for Milan the last weekend of November; I have already been to Sweden and Ireland. In Sweden, I visited the Saab factory in Trollhattan- what a sight!

tsaupe1

Mr. Shiftright, I agree, the 330 GTC is a beautiful car. I have driven one and it was a pleasure, that's one of the reasons for considering it. I actually like the lines of the 365 GTC/4 although I'm first to admit that in some colours the nose looks hideous. As I said above, on a dark car, it's barely noticeable.

We're in early stages of this, and who knows what may come along. Plus, it's impossible to know where prices are going to go in that amount of time. I don't think it's inconceivable that the early 550M's might get into the high end of the range by then. Although a "classic" is what we're thinking now, I love the 550 and certainly wouldn't complain about having to own one.

Jrosasmc, I'm not knocking Volvos. Although I do have a few choice words about some of the people who drive them. The " I own the safest car on the road" so I can drive like an idiot brigade!

Enjoy Milan, remember you're just a train ride from Maranello!

andys120

Mattel's Hot Wheels has had a monopoly on the production and sale of 1/18th scale Ferrari diecast miniatures. This has been unfortunate because Mattel has limited itself to reissues of crude and inferior remakes of kits from Bburago, Anson and others.

At the same time others have forged ahead with diecasts of incredible detail and finish, particularly Exoto and Kyosho.

It's worth noting that plastic scale kits of most Ferrari types are hard to come by as well.

That seems to be changing. Perhaps Ferrari has expanded or abandoned it's licensing arrangement because suddenly there are some nice diecasts out and even more coming out.

Most noteworthy of those now available Kyosho's 1/18th 365GTB/4 (Daytona) and 365 GT/4 BB (Boxer). The Daytonas are US spec versions with working popup
headlights. The glass-nose Euro version might still be found on E-Bay (I have one).

The new Exoto catalog features a raft of exciting Ferrari classics scheduled to be released in 2004 among them--

-250GTO and 250GT/SWB (in street and competition versions)

-275 GTB and GTB/4- long and short-nose

-F40

Exoto 1/18th models retail around $170 (a few are more) , not cheap but the quality and detail should be worthy of classic Ferraris.

 A few words of caution:
Exoto is not good at keeping published release dates, the 250GTO is at least a year and a half late.

The information about yet to be released replicas isn't found on their website, Exoto.com only in their subscription seasonal catalogs. I do recommend checking out the website to get an idea of how good these models are and also some other racing and classic cars that might be of interest to you.

-this is an unsolicited testimonial, I am a customer, not an employee, of Exoto.
-

tsaupe1

Andys120, I agree completely about Mattel. I have purchased a few to fill in gaps in the collection but haven't really been thrilled with any of them. Unfortunately, they are currently the only source for contemporary F1 cars, so I guess I'm stuck.

Kyosho also makes a terrific 308 GTB/GTS and 328 GTB. I'm actually on my way to Exoticar this morning, hopefully to snag a 328.

I have been waiting patiently for Exoto to release the GTO. It has been forever. I have a few of their F1 cars and you're right, the detail is terrific. They're expensive but worth it.

jrosasmc

How come F1 paddle-shift transmissions are a "preferred" item on Ferraris 1998 and up insteand of the normal six-speed manual? It seems as if everyone wants one with this type of tranny and not the traditional version.

Tsaupe, you would know this better than I do: Why's it that I see a lot more early '90s 348s of both body styles than I do Mondial t convertibles? Is it because the market for early '90s Mondials is weak and nobody wants the cars? I always thought that particular model was the best-looking of all early '90s Ferraris.

Mr_Shiftright

The 348 is one of Ferrari's first mass-produced cars, and one of the first with modern up the date technology. It's just a way better car than a Mondial and has higher production numbers.
 Nobody much likes Mondials it seems, and so there is very little demand for the car. Given their low value and high maintenance costs, when they hit high miles or get damaged they will probably be salvaged. So you'll see even fewer in the future I'm guessing. Right now, the car's engine is probably worth more than the car itself, or close.

Paddle shifting is probably popular because it really really works well on a Ferrari and is quite reliable.

Nothing worse than slogging a big powerful car at slow speeds. "It's much more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow".

jrosasmc

In my opinion, I think that it should have been the Mondial, and not the Testarossa, that was used in "Miami Vice." I always believed Don Johnson would be more at home with one.

jrosasmc

Here's something interesting: this month's new issue of Men's World magazine calls the Ferrari Testarossa the "most desirable car of all time." The mag even goes so far as to call it sexy and appealing. Still, I have to give credit to a model whose value has been fast-falling as of late. And I don't think a starring role in "Miami Vice" helps in in that area either.

tsaupe1

Jrosasmc, "Most desirable car of all time." That's a tall order. I'll agree that the TR is desirable, sexy and appealing, "of all time" includes a lot of fabulous cars, some of them Ferraris. I can think of half a dozen cars, probably more if I really put my mind to it, that I would find more desirable. How about you?

Yes, their values are falling for all but the 512's. Those values are staying the same or even rising. Mondials, I think, are close to bottoming out, just as the 308 has.

Unlike Mr. Shiftright, I don't see a lot of Ferraris going to scrap. There are always buyers who, for what ever reason, are looking for a Ferrari in their price range and willing to spend the money to bring them back to acceptable condition. I know several people who look at this problem from a different vantage point. They buy a car that may need work, put money into it knowing that they will never get it "back out of" the car, and are quite happy to do so. Some do it because it affords them the opportunity of ownership where buying a pristine example or a more desirable model wouldn't. Some do it knowing this will likely be the only Ferrari they will ever own. They can afford the maintenance because it's in spaced out intervals and are happy with that situation.

Let's face it, they don't refer to it as being "car crazy" because of the logical, cold blooded decisions we make. If you take the passion out of the equation, where's the fun?

As far as the Mondial is concerned, they suffered from a lack of power and surprising build quality issues in the early models, along with the dreaded 2+2 configuration. Yes, their prices are falling, but I don't think you'll see many on the scrap heap for the reasons stated above. Of all of them, the T model is probably the best.

I've driven with paddles and yes, in traffic they are wonderful devices and great at speed too. However, my mechanic told me (evidently they can read this info out on the car's computers) that the most used setting on a majority of paddle shift cars is full auto. I'm afraid I'm an old fashioned stick shift kinda guy. Of course, that's not to say I'd turn my nose up at an Enzo.

Tom

andys120

even the most desireable Ferrari of all time, the collectors award that trophy to the 250GTO, currently valued at around $mil a copy.

I'd sure rather have one than a TR but then I'd rank at least a dozen Ferraris ahead of it and probably a couple of dozen other cars before the giant Cheese Grater. I liked it back in the day but it's appeal has declined for me probably due to the return of front engine V12s.

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm....I think any modern, high mileage, damaged Ferrari is a very tempting candidate for scrap (by which I mean being parted out, not "junked"). You'd have to be pretty wiggy to buy a damaged high miles Mondial--there would be no reason to do so, as there are plenty of cheap undamaged low mileage ones to choose from.

Nothing harder to sell than a Ferrari that has a damage history or poor service records. It's the Kiss of Death with these cars.

I think Men's World needs to send out a more knowledable reporter. The TR prices still haven't quite bottomed out, and they made over 10,000 of these, didn't they? They are very plentiful at auction and often go begging. I don't see the "desireability" showing up in the only department that counts---writing a check for asking price.

Besides, who wants a car that you have to pull the engine out of when you need service?

andys120

I'd kill for a '67 E-Type!

tsaupe1

as regards damaged cars. My point was more towards cars which may need mechanical help but are whole and without (extensive) body or frame damage either from rust or accident.

Andys120, I'm right there with you regarding the GTO, but we'll both need to save some more pennies. The current price guide in Cavallino, which is based on actual sales and dealers, places current prices for a GTO between 6.5 and 9 Million dollars. There has been a persistent rumor in the Ferrari community that one just moved from Europe to Japan for 10 Million (dollars, not Yen).

As passionate as I am about the GTO, I'm still not sure it's "the most desirable." Surely it's on the short list but then I look at Ralph Lauren's Bugatti Atlantique or any number of Duesenbergs and have to rethink the question!

Tom

andys120

I think the most desireable Ferrari is probably a 250GT California SWB.

I'm not sure I could tell you what the most desireable automobile is. I change my mind about that every day.

Mr_Shiftright

tsaupe---well, when you have a $25,000 car that needs a $35,000 engine, you really have a parts car. So the mechanical needs would have to be reasonable, and the miles as well I think, for a Mondial to be spared from salvage. I don't think these cars will be saved, I think they will all disappear as they age and/or break.

tsaupe1

Well Mr. Shiftright, time will tell. If they're all going to be gone though, maybe now is the right time to buy a cherry example, wrap it in cellophane and wait. Your grand kids or great grand kids might thank you for your foresight in preserving the last Mondial ;-)

On another subject, I'm off to the NE Auto Show on Friday afternoon (playing hooky) to see all the latest and get another look at the Enzo. I know its look are controversial, but I really like the car, especially in motion.

I recently saw that Ferrari is coming out with a Maserati version of the Enzo. I haven't the faintest what it will be called, can't remember any of the brothers' names. Any suggestions? Do you think this is another attempt to boost the trident image to bolster (flagging) sales?

andys120

I thought Maserati sales were up.

I'm doing the Boston show tomorrow afternoon.

Mr_Shiftright

Lessee...the brothers were Alfieri, Bindo, Carlo, Ettore, Ernesto, Mario, Sleepy, Doc and Bashful I think.

tsaupe1

Don't forget Donder, Blitzen and Rudolph!

Andys120, I'm not sure where Maserati sales are to date. They might be picking up, but the last time I talked to anyone knowledgeable about it, sales where way off the mark. Maserati's in a tough market niche. Lot's of competition although I saw a lot of them in Europe this past summer.

How was the auto show? Anything in particular I should make a point of seeing?

Tom

kevin111

I thought the 550 had a very heavy clutch, and as a result, suspected the 575 did also. Did Ferrari lighten it up a bit? Thanks for the first-hand experience!

Also, with the police pulling you over with regards to the front license plate - "It has nothing to do with the fact that you are driving a Ferrari" - yeah right. If you were driving a Camry, they wouldn't even bother.

forzaroma

andys120

Anything interesting?, well Ferrari and Maserati, but nothing new (since you've already seen the Enzo). The Enzo struck me as looking exactly what it should look like, an Ferrari F1 for the street. Seen in that light it's a good-looking car. It's small, no bigger than the Modena it was parked next to.

I failed to check out the Carrera GT, I'm sure it'll be interesting and AFAIK it was there.

I sat in an RS6 which is a total Q-ship. I'd have missed it if I hadn't happened to notice the trunk badge. Inside and out it looks like a garden variety A6, but NOT under the hood!

The Ford GT was impressive to see. It looks like a 10/8 scale GT40.

The new BMW 5er was there in 530i form. It's OK
-I'm fine with the back which integrates more smoothly than in the 7er. I was OK with the arched headlights but I'm afraid
the grilles are a little Pontiac-ish for me.

Alas, no Bentley Continental GT.

Finally I couldn't figure out why there was a Mondial Spider in the Ferrari display, AFAIK it's not a current production model, am I mistaken?

Let me know what you think, Tom.

tsaupe1

Andys120,

Fun show but I was a bit disappointed not to see some marques there. You would think that Rolls and Bentley would be more interested in exposure and why is it I never see Aston Martin represented anymore? Where were Lotus and Lambo?

I think that was the New Hampshire Enzo. As far as the Mondial is concerned, you're right, it's been out of production for 10 years. I guess NE Ferrari is trying to drum up business for preowned. That particular car only had 7000 miles on it.

Other than that, I thought the new 5 series Bimmer looked bottom heavy and I hate the trunk line from the side. It looks like an afterthought. The Ford GT50 looked great. I had seen it a couple of times at Pebble and Concourso Italiano. No delivery until next year, though. Loved the NSX and was really impressed by the Mazda RX8, especially in that red paint.

I thought the worst car I "tried on" was the new Chrysler Crossfire. Poor fit and finish, terrible rear vision and no rear 3/4 vision at all.

All in all it was a fun afternoon. I was with a friend who test drives everything he can so he filled me in on a lot of the newer models as far as performance is concerned. I guess I'm so focused on the Ferrari world that I miss a lot. I have to get out more!

Tom

andys120

Does that Enzo reside in NH?? Where?

tsaupe1

I believe that car belongs to a gentleman with an impressive collection of F cars in the Winnipasakee (sp?) area. I'm hesitant to give out his name and exact address without permission. There was a club meet at his home earlier this fall and he had just taken delivery of the car.

I just received this month's Forza. There's a good article on the four headlight 330 2+2 in it. When we were first married we had a '61 250GTE for a time. The incompatibility of marriage and maintenance costs forced us to part with it, but it sure was a great car. I really think the usually under priced 2+2's and four seaters provide a great opportunity for first time buyers. A real V12 for less than many 8's are selling for. Plus, the earlier V12 engines are relatively easy to work on if you're a reasonabley experienced backyard mechanic.

Andys120, check out the Buz Lockwood models in this issue. they're beautiful.

forzaroma

dear kevin 111
well a couple of months further on and the 575 is still great and am still driving it every day and yes the clutch is very user friendly. ok it's not super light or anything but you don't need calves like ah-nold to drive it either. with everyday driving you don't even realise you are using the clutch, so in my book that qualifies as being pretty light.
ps i see that one of your dream cars is an f40, mine too, i have never driven one and i hear they are really uncomfotable and noisy but i would still love one. i saw one with 15,000 miles offered at 225 no track time (yeah right) that is the lowest i have seen one advertised. apparently the cars offered at 330 really trade at around 270. the lowest they ever traded was in 99 when you could get a decent one for under 200. i think the original list was about 185. not a bad investment.

speeds2much

Congrats on the beautiful car. Having lived and driven in Manhattan before, I'm wondering how you manage to keep it from getting dinged. You've paid a garage manager handsomely to look after your baby?

speeds2much

...just saw official pictures of the 456GT/GTA replacement in Road & Track. It looks fantastic. Anyone else here excited about this car?

I'm relieved that it doesn't have the hood scoop I saw in spy sketches, simply because I think the 456 is the world's cleanest and most beautiful design...the perfect gentleman's express. (Okay, it needs to be refueled too often).

tsaupe1

The 456 is a really attractive car, both the old model and the new one. I haven't had the good fortune to drive one but I'm told they are really great tourers. Personally I was rather hoping the car would be a bit more like the early drawings but I have no complaints about the new car. Perhaps a bit too conservative for some but probably near perfect for someone looking for a 4 seater.

sphinx99

I sat in an Enzo!!!!

(Long story involving a saleswoman who thought I wasn't married, a sold yellow Enzo being "parked" in the showroom by the owner who doesn't want to pick it up due to lack of storage at his pad (?), and a lazy Friday afternoon at a Ferrari dealership near where my sister works.)

I'm convinced now, it's definitely an ugly car on the outside. Inside though you feel like you're sitting in the cockpit of the space shuttle. I didn't touch anything, didn't want to leave fingerprints. It's roomy in there though, plenty of legroom. Just weird to have your legs splayed out like that. The door is about as heavy as my computer keyboard. You pull it in and almost worry that you're going to break it, despite knowing that it's probably tougher than concrete.

Anyway, there went my once-in-a-lifetime Ferrari experience (unless I win the lottery in which case I can get in line and at least pretend).

I did see a red Testarossa on the road driving out of the health club I go to. The driver had a very "butch" look to him, kind of a Fabio-meets-Cheech-Marin look. Very funky.

andys120

he was wearing gold chains and a muscle shirt.

sphinx99

I think it was one of those Hawaiian short-sleeve shirts that you see gangsters wearing in Miami. Which is unusual, it's freezing outside.

Mr_Shiftright

You can buy a Testarossa on a credit card. Prices keep dropping and we'll be in the below $40K range soon. Problem is high maintenance plus they built a boatload of them, thousands and thousands. It was the first mass-produced Ferrari so the golden rule of supply and demand works against the car. Fun car but don't plan on stashing one away and making any money in 25 years, because it won't happen on this one.

forzaroma

The F40 was the last pre-computer age car, no power steering, brakes or windows, no ABS no ASR no nothing in fact. I find it special since it was the last car comissioned by Enzo, the last of his creations he ever saw. I had a ride in one, it is far more civilised that all the literature would have you believe, it is smooth on the freeway (althought the owner said it is very low which makes things difficult with driveways etc). the wheels lost their grip at 120mph when the driver accelerated in a straight line, in 4th gear, in the dry. wow. does anyone out there know of any good articles on F40s, info on them. all i know about the car is the weight and horsepower which are about 2800 pounds and 478hp i think. apparetnly between 1311 and 1315 were made with something like 200 to 212 being US spec models. does anyone out there have any ownership experience ?
as a last comment, i would say to all tifosi if you have not had the opportutinty to see and f40 in the metal, it looks unbelievable. which also contributes to making it on one of the most desirable ferraris (to drive on dry sundays). i think it is probably a good investment. i gather $275,000 will get a good one these days (despite asking prices in the 300 - 350 range) and although obvisouly the numbers made count against you, i could see the car being worth twice that 10 years from now. anyone agree / disagree ?

sphinx99

I've read a few accounts saying that the F40 was the last real "race cars for the road" and that the F50 and Enzo are far too pampering and civilized and compromised to truly reflect the F1 experience.

Mr_Shiftright

Well maybe by Ferrari standards they are "civilized" but they are still a howling kick to drive and listen to. No mistaking the F50 or Enzo for any other car you might be in, in other words. They'll get your heart pounding and your palms sweaty. Just the noise in the cockpit should do that at 93 decibels full throttle. That is LOUD.

the_man

best ferrari of all time? Simple, a 1958 250 testa rossa. it's the ultimate ferrari, looks, freformance and ultra rarity.

i saw one being prepped at shelton sports cars in Fourt lauderdale, it had just been sold at auction for 9 million or something like that.
no other ferarri even comes close( maybe an F 2003, but that's in a whole nother league)

and by the way the it's true nwe ferrari's lack the road and steering feel of the old ones. the F40 is certainly the way to go if you want a race car for the road, although you could get a saleen s7 or mostler mt900r for around the same price.

but I say Get The original 250 testa rossa

andys120

Bill Gates can barely afford one of those, and a new Enzo at $675k is cheap compared to the ultra rare 250TR, which can't be legally driven on the highway in most places without extensive mods.

3 liter TRs are not race cars for the road, they're purpose built race cars capable of winning at LeMans, Spa, Nurburgring etc. They lack necessities like windshield wipers, turn signals etc and it would be sacrilege to add them to such historic cars IMO.

No doubt they are wonderful to drive but it's possible an Enzo or F40 is faster than those 40 y/o race cars.

Like Shifty I don't think any modern car with p/s
can match the steering of the best sports cars of the unassisted era.

andys120

The new TOP GEAR has some excellent photos of a metallic Red 612. They're taken from various angles and I must say this car is a looker. I think I prefer it to the Maranello.

It's more restrained yet very sleek and the "coves" in the sides give it a nice low look.
It really looks like a two seater. I wonder if there's adult seating room in the rear?

TG had nice things to say about the dynamics of the car. The engine is set back in the chassis, behind the from axle for maximum handling. Is this Ferrari's best 2+2 ever?

tsaupe1

Yes, the 612 is probably the best Ferrari 2+2 ever. I'd argue that the only other contender would be the 250 GTE/330 series.

The backseat room question is loaded with ifs. If the driver and passenger are not large and can slide their seats forward, and the passengers are under, say, 5' 11", then yes, it will seat four adults. That's if it has about the same amount of cabin room as the 456.

It's a good looking car and, judging by the popularity of the 456, should do well for Ferrari.

tsaupe1

In what will, hopefully, be a first step towards getting involved in vintage racing, I just signed up to do Skip Barber's school in May. Do any of you know what the standards are for vintage cars? I'm wondering if my '79 GT4 would qualify and how much modification would need to be done to make it acceptable, any ideas? Mr. Shiftright?

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Tom, each organization that you race under has its own rules, and sometimes each EVENT does too, so you have some choices. It's all rather byzantine, and I don't have the rules memorized. I do know that for the really prestigious events they often restrict cars to 1957 or older, but there are plenty of activities that allow much more modern machinery.

This link may be helpful to you:

http://www.team.net/www/vintage-race/

andys120

SVRA and VSCC seem to be the most active in NE.

tsaupe1

Thanks for the input guys, I'm going to start doing some research. Right now, Barber is just one more reason for me to be sitting in the office cursing the falling snow! I think cabin fever may be setting in and the winter really hasn't even been that bad -yet!

Tom

tsaupe1

The past week here in Massachusetts has been just beautiful. The F1 season has started, another sure sign of Spring. Every day I've been tempted to start taking the cars out of their winter cocoons but have remained grudgingly patient. If this holds, perhaps they will be on the road by the end of March. Dates for club events and such are being published and I thought I'd let the Northeast lovers of Italian machinery in on a few dates.

Tutto Italiano, the annual celebration of all sorts of Italian cars is May 23 at the Lars Anderson Museum of Transportation in Brookline, MA. There are always more Ferraris than any other make, but usually a nice showing of Alfas and Lambos as well.

June 20 is the FCA concours in Hartford, CT. This is the biggest all Ferrari event in the Northeast and well worth travelling for.

We'll be at both and hope to see some of you folks as well.

Tom

merc1

I can't remember whether or not we talked about the new 612 Scagletti??? What do the Ferrari faithful think?

I at first thought it was too longish looking, but it seems to be ok. I got the chance to see it up close at the Chicago auto show, by attending an event for Maserati. You know the Ferraris were in the same area. I got a picture of myself standing next to and actually touching the Scagletti!!!!! I still find the 575M to be Ferrari's best looking car, so short, brutal and powerful looking. Classic GT proportions.

M

andys120

of the 612 Scaglietti, I think it may be the best looking of contemporary Ferraris and the only one with looks on a par with the cars of the classic era.

The Maranellos by contrast strike as a bit contrived and cluttered looking. It has the classic GT proportions but falls down in the detailing inside and out. A recent issue of Classic and Sports Cars(UK) made this very point in comparing the 575M to the 365 GTB/4 Daytona. I saw the 575M for the first time this fall and it reminded me of the Mitsubishi VR6000 GT. Ok but hardly a classic beauty.

I can't wait to see the Scaglietti.

tsaupe1

I haven't seen the 612 in the flesh yet but do like what I've seen in photographs. Looking forward to seeing the real thing this spring. Although I can't agree with Andys120 about the Maranello, I really appreciate the understatement of the 612. I always liked the 456 for that reason. just an understated, beautiful car.