Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

tsaupe1

If memory serves me Ferrari originally built less than 100 Daytona Spyders. There were quite a few conversions done by specialty shops, most of them quite good. However let me throw an interesting wrench in the works. Several post-production spyders were returned for conversion to Scaglietti, the firm that builds Ferrari's bodies. The conversion was done to proper factory specs and, interesting to note, the removed tops were returned to the clients.

So the car left Maranello as a GTB, was returned to Ferrari's body plant in Modena (this was before Scaglietti moved their entire facility to Maranello) to become a GTS. Are they really fakes? IN the early days, custom body work on a Ferrari was typical. Alot of the competition/street cars were reworked on several occasions to upgrade specs.

Regarding the lowly 250GTE, they were also cobbled into fake GTO's in the '80's feeding frenzy. Those "fakes" are still demanding higher prices than the original 2+2. But they upside is that there are fewer 250 GTE's around because of this and their prices have risen. Wish I had mine back!
Tom

andys120

I wonder what they did with the returned lids of those decapitated Daytonas.

A small point but according to Geoffrey Eaton's
exhaustive book on Ferraris there never was a
Daytona GTS. According to him these were designated 365GTB/4 Spiders not 365GTS/4 Spiders.

While we're on the subject, I rather think the coupes are the more attractive. The shape of the roof and the very nice curve of the rear side windows are lost in the Spider versions, to their detriment IMO.

I generally prefer topless cars but not in this case.

dgraves1

I have to remember that the obsession with originality and things like "matching numbers" is somewhat unique to more mundane American cars. I guess it becomes hard to guess value on these extremely rare cars with "interesting" history.

There are quite a few cars that I think are better looking in coupe form than convertible (911, Audi TT come to mind immediately) but for driving pleasure there's nothing like an open roof to me.

andys120

that an original 250GT California or 365/GTB/4 Spider is still worth way more than a replica or recreation with 100% Ferrari(Scaglietti) parts.

tsaupe1

Andy,

They're probably all on Fieros now.

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

One reason there's not so much emphasis on older Ferraris is that these cars were presumed to go racing, with the subsequent damage, re-bodies, etc. So non-originality, to a reasonable degree, is expected and is often worn as a badge of honor.

I think the obsession with original numbers of mass produced domestic cars is very silly myself, and I'm pleased that Ferrari collectors don't obsess with that.

andys120

large number of fakes. It's not that hard to make a GT-350 out of a run-of the mill '66 Mustang 2+2 or even a K-Code out of a 6-cyl notchback. In both cases the car is worth more but only if it's original and you only know that if numbers match.

Aren't there a lot of GTOs that were made up from LeMans and Corvettes that became fuelies or 427s after the fact?

ndance

is Cobras (assuming I could stand to part with the lucre). Worth too much, too many 3rd party sources for parts, no doubt a bunch of cars crashed early in their lives.

I'll bet there are a few that have been built by parting out a totalled original (ie. 1 car becomes 2). I suppose that's why SAAC (and it's registry) is such a big deal for those guys.

tsaupe1

I suspect that as soon as a car gains some significant collector status there will always be "problem" cars. I thought I heard once that there's a kit available put the split back in the Corvette's that never had split rear windows.

I guess it all comes down to being able to trace a particular cars' lineage. If a Cobra with competition history had its' engine replaced early in its' life due to the hazards of racing, the numbers wouldn't match, but isn't it still a "more-or-less" original car?

Tom

andys120

Shifty's right though. Cars that were famously raced are judged by different standartds, that certainly includes Cobras.

argent

With Ferraris (and other European exotics) the lesser obsession with keeping everything mechanically stock (provided it's still Ferrari, of course) may also be that because it's not easy to say what constitutes "stock!" Pre-70s Ferraris were produced in such limited numbers, were largely hand-built, and were often specially outfitted to customer spec that even when they were new and FOB, very few of them were identical in trim or spec to begin with.

Mr_Shiftright

You know, if you can easily fake a car, that sort of tells you something about the car---basically that it was built with off the shelf parts to begin with. You're just doing the same thing Shelby did.

You aren't going to fake a Ferrari engine that easily or an alloy body.

andys120

and I'll bet they're hard to fake with those curves
(based loosely on Ferrari bodywork).

90%+ of the replicas are done in glass for that reason.

ndance

since nearly all of them weren't raced (I suppose you can argue that the 427 cars don't even have much of a racing 'heritage') that the main thing a prospective owner is after is a clean, accurate, and largish paper trail. You want CSXblahblahblah to be bought at Sanderson Ford by Joe Schmoe sold to somebody sold to somebody etc. with as many original parts as possible.

As far as aluminum vs. glass is concerned, in the world of $250k+ cars, that doesn't seem like much of an obstacle.

dgraves1

I think Shifty was talking about the Shelby Mustangs.
Shifty, I was thinking the same thing in a post I had in the "Revitalize.." topic just before it got shut down. There was a Ghibli Spyder that went for $80K+ at B-J immediately followed by a Yenko Chevelle that went for $125K. It just seemed wrong. I know a Yenko Chevelle is rare but in the end it's nothing more than a plain old Chevelle with a big engine and some stickers. You could probably recreate it for $20K.

ndance

not necessarily (though I can't speak for him)

AC Ace + 260 = ?

chris396

That's true dgraves but most people can't relate to a Ghibli Spyder. They didn't grow up riding in one. Their buddy didn't own one. And they don't know how to fix one.

dgraves1

Chris - Yeah, but it's still just a Chevelle. Can anyone relate to a $125K Chevelle? Unless there's $124K in the trunk, I don't get it.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't get $5,000 Barbie dolls either but the passion of the collector often does not rely just on reason.

Like with art collecting, what often makes something valuable is that not everyone can have one. Sometimes the actual quality of the object gets blurred in the process of "wanting" something.

What makes Ferraris special is that they are not only rare (in most cases) and beautiful but thrilling to drive, and I'm sorry, an old Chevelle is a noisy belching smoking hunk of iron in comparison, as fast as it might be in a straight line and all that. I appreciate the allure of brute force as much as the next guy, but I personally am not going to pay that much for that type of experience. $15K-20K to get your head pushed back in the seat, sure, sign me up. But 125K. I don't think so.

andys120

whether or not the Chevelle will hold on to that exalted valuation as the years go on. I have a lot more confidence in the long-term value of the $125k Ghibli Spider than I do in that of the $125k
Chevelle (Malibu, I assume).

tsaupe1

Maserati's never pull the kind of money they IMHO, deserve. Secondly, I never completely trust auction prices because it only takes two people caught up in the car or the moment to establish an unrealistic price for anything.

I've seen it happen often, and unfortunately, I've allowed myself to get caught up in the action as well. The result, real buyer's remorse!

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Auctions COUNT on emotional responses, and in fact fuel them with noise, prodding, entertainment and....booze!

I don't think $125K Chevelles will hold their value in the future, because once the generation that reveres them for childhood memories has past on, the cars will have to "speak for themselves" to a newer generation, and my sense is that this newer generation will find these 60s cars rather crudely built and garish to modern tastes.

But you never know...cheap antique tin toys still bring excellent money. Ultimately, "value" is all in people's minds.

ndance

it's always possible that a pay phone call (like the old joke goes) will cost $50 in the future.

Aha, I knew there was one for sale:

http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/7/6/40869576.htm

it does have the advantage of being an expensive car with cheap parts, I guess.

Anyone happen to see the WSJ article (on Friday) talking about the poor market in expensive project cars? One of the poor guys had a rusty XKE convertible he had put beaucoup bucks into and was only a little way through. Too funny.

I've managed to avoid this situation, but I expect someday I'll lose my sanity and buy something like a cheap Espada...oh nooooo....and feel doomed about ten minutes later.

Mr_Shiftright

Project cars have been on the "outs" for a couple years now. WSJ is a bit slow on that. Of course the reason is restoration costs. This is also why many 80s Ferraris are going to the wreckers or will be busted up for parts.

dgraves1

ndance - An Espada? An excellent choice for financial suicide. I remember seeing one for sale in the local paper for $12.5K a little while back. I tossed the idea in my head for a while. Woke up with a dreadful hangover.

Mr_Shiftright

This topic comes over from the now defunct Classics Board.

This discussion is STRICTLY for people who love Ferraris or who would like to learn more about them.

Any form of brand-bashing or maligning of owners will be promptly discouraged by the Host.

Constructive criticism meant to help in the purchase or maintenance of the cars is most welcome.

Thank you
Shifty the HOst

andys120

I was gonna try this myself. Do we have Tsaupe's email so we can notify him? It's about time to take the cover off the 328.

andys120

I've been a fan of the Maranello stallions since before there was a 250GTO and I've noticed lately
that the competition at the very top of the performance car market is getting hotter and hotter.

For me Ferrari will always be THE car but I think they haven't been so heavily challenged in many years. Their competitors are getting more attention in the public mind, in particular...

-Aston Martin

Ford has executed an amazing turnaround at AM. The new Zagatos, Vantages and other models compete with Ferrari in the areas of styling and performance and now there's a small Aston V8 to compete with the 360s. Aston Martin has a legendary racing heritage but fortunately for Ferrari hasn't done anything lately to build on that legacy.

-Porsche

They got sidetracked with the Cayenne caper but they're also about to introduce the V10 powered
Carrera GT which ought to be competitive with the Maranellos. If anyone could build an Enzo competitor it would be Porsche.

-Lamborghini

The new Gallardo is getting a lot of favorable press and might steal some Modena sales. I don't think the Murcielago is taking sales from the 550/575 though, unless it's someone who's gotta have a mid-engine exotic.

As yet Lambo has no competitor for the 456/460 and no racing progran although it's rumored they may build a Gallardo-based racer for LeMans (GT class).

Others-

There's a lot of small volume builders like Pagoni
and Bugatti that don't look like real threats but taken together they could take sales from the prancing horses.

Viva Ferrari!

dgraves1

How about the Saleen S7? Is this just another failed attempt at making a world class supercar in the US? Certainly not much world class panache when your background is hot rodding Mustangs but the performance and attention getting looks are there if not the style and beauty.

andys120

Steve Saleen for his moxie in creating the S7 and taking it racing but I don't think it competes with Ferrari's offerings.

Mr_Shiftright

Aston Martin's racing heritage is such ancient history that I don't think that really works to their advantage anymore. Probably being in a James Bond movie has helped it far more than what they did on the track in the 1950s. That's a long time ago!

What gives Ferrari such a boost is not merely that "they race them" but that they have been committed to racing since Day One and have never quit, no matter how lean the times or how bitter the defeats.

This total devotion to racing is what I think gives the marque such a magical attraction that defies all logic, all economics, and all practicality.

blacktalon

So, Ferrari fans, what's your favorite Ferrari of all time?

Personally, I think the 360 Modena manages to surpass all of the previous models in terms of sheer beauty. I've seen a couple of these in person, and they really are breathtaking.

Second place would go the 355.

Honorable mention would go the 308, largely for the nostalgia value -- from watching Magnum PI as a kid and saying, "I'm going to drive a car like that when I grow up..."

Mr_Shiftright

You know I like two of your choices very much but I think the earlier 308s are really a pile of tin...slow, ornery, expensive to fix and the styling is getting dated year by year. A hot Honda hatchback would kill it. It's humiliating. The 80s and 81s are oil burners, to be avoided at all costs. Probably the one to have is the 4 valve injected car. The very early carb models are quicker, but a pain to tune and you can forget about passing a smog test for the rest of your life and the car's life.

Or you could just get a 328.

andys120

I love the following particularly--

  250GT California Spider esp SWB.

  250GT Berlinetta Lusso

  365GTB/4 "Daytona"

  246GTS Dino

I'd kill for any of these any I'd also rank any on top of my list depending on my mood on any given day. My favorite of current production would have to be the Z360 Modena Spider.

jrosasmc

My favorite Ferrari of all time is the Dino 246 GTS (1970-73), but again, I'd worry about one passing a smog test or keeping the carbs in tune.

dgraves1

Do some states have smog tests for 30 year old cars? Even PITA California doesn't do that.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, in California the cut off is 1973.

There are some older Ferraris which will NEVER get registered in California. Don't even think about bringing in certain carb-ed 308s, you will never pass the smog test. This is why these cars are near worthless in California and are sold out of state.

tsaupe1

Dgraves, I'm back and the cover is off the 328. Well, the cover was off but now, thanks to this unpredictable New England weather, it's back on.

After its looooonnnng winter's hibernation the car is running fine. I'm always a bit amazed when it fires on the first turn of the key after sitting in a carbag for 5 months. It sure feels great to be behind the wheel again.

Anyway, to chime in MHO on favorite Ferraris. I can't name just one. Favorites change on a regular basis, often dictated by what I'm looking at presently. Another criteria is what I'm intending for the car.

For sheer beauty, the 250 Lusso and the 275 GTB, not the four cam as I think the hood bulge detracts.

For drivability and every day use, I really have to stand by my 328. It just does everything well.

Pure racers, the 250 GTO. It's probably right at the top of the list for all time favorite. But, If I were rich and could have one classic to live with, compromises not withstanding, the 275 GTB/4. It's beautiful, fast and classic. It says Ferrari from a mile away.

Nice to see the board active again. I always enjoy reading other folks opinions.

Tom

argent

Just from a stylistic basis, I most admire the 50s 250 coupes, some of which were styled by Vignale and Touring as well as Pininfarina. They're more upright and less aggressive or -- let's be frank -- sexual than the more sporting iron, but as I get older I find myself more drawn to attractive coupes than to mid-engined racing monsters.

andys120

I prefer the less agressive older coupes (and spiders). To my eye they make a subtle statement of grace and power. Their appeal is to the cognoscenti while anyone can understand the message of say a 288GTO or Enzo.

I'm glad you found us Tom. We look forward to your getting the 328 out this spring. It is truly one of the great Ferraris for regular driving on regular roads (as opposed to Autostradi). Perhaps the best 12-cylinder for such use is the 330GTC of the late 60s.

tsaupe1

After the torrential rains of the morning the sun came out, the temperature came up, and the Ferrari is out from under the cover again. This time, hopefully, to stay. Although it spent most of the day at the local Toyota dealership where we bought my wife a new SUV (4 runner ltd). Now it's sitting under the office window waiting for a ride home from work. I think I'll take the long way.

Andys120, the 330 GTC is a beautiful car and very tractable for a classic 12. The other I might consider as a daily 12 would be the 365 GTC/4. Essentially the same engine as the Daytona but with less temperament. I'm told by owners of 550 and 575 Maranellos that they too are very easy to live with. Actually, I wouldn't mind living with one myself.

Is anyone on the board from the Northeast area attending Tutto Italiano at the Lars Anderson museum this June 1st? Last year's event was great fun with a lot of interesting cars, mostly Ferraris and a good contingent of Alfas, Lambos, Maseratis and various other Italian makes. It's a great day.

Tom

merc1

Well I'm like some of the others here I really can't decide on a absolute favorite. My favorites are (in no particluar order):

F355 Spider (well probably my favorite of all time)
Testerossa ( a good runner up for #1 of all time)
GTO (the last one, not sure of the exact year)
360 Modena
Mondial T Cabrio
550/575 Maranello
456M GT
F40

M

tsaupe1

I recently read on another non-Edmunds board that some do not consider the Enzo a "real" Ferrari. Their primary argument is that it doesn't have a regular stick shift and clutch and that all "real" Ferraris are thus equipped. I would assume that this thinking also holds true for the 355 and 360s, 550 and 575s. Of course the 355 and 360 are doubly cursed as they are mere 8 cylinder cars and I guess the 400i and the 456 GTA are just Chrysler products since their automatic transmissions (although heavily reworked and modified) are a German Chrysler unit.

So, what constitutes a "real" Ferrari? Do we have to go back to pre-Fiat days? If that's the case, what about all those marvelous F1 and sportscars that were raced as Ferraris but only had 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engines? Is the current crop of F1 cars, with their 10 cylinders "real" Ferraris?

What do you folks think?

Tom

andys120

arguments of that sort have been going on for years. For many years Dino owners felt stigmatized because of the widespread feeling that
"real" Ferraris only had twelve cylinders. It was common to see Dinos festooned with Prancing Horse emblems in places no V12 had them,
as if to compensate.

With the passage of time we can see what nonsense that was. Dinos after all were a creation of Il Commendatore who wished to compete with the Porsche 911. They were the first mid-engined street cars from Maranello and were closely patterned on the successful Dino V6 racing cars.

AFAIC it's a real Ferrari if it's chassis and engine was designed and built in Maranello by Ferrari Spa. I might feel differently if they ever came out with a sedan or <shudder> an SUV.

Mr_Shiftright

I think as long as the car is not compromised it will always be a Ferrari. It HAS to have the Ferrari "soul", which means one hell of an exciting ride that you cannot find anywhere else.

Whether it is 8 cylinders or 12 howling behind your ears or in front of them doesn't matter to me, as long as they are howling.

When Ferraris become "perfect" and "quiet" and "comfortable" and "reliable" and "easily driveable by anyone" and score very high with CR for trunk space and ease of maintenance, you can be sure they're dead.

andys120

that some successful racing Ferraris had only FOUR
"cilindri".

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, but that was out of necessity, not choice. Italy's industry was bombed to smithereens, remember, in World War II.

Ferrari should always be careful to preserve its soul. Jaguar didn't and now look what you've got. Beverly Hills cruisers instead of LeMans winners. But higher CR ratings than ever!

andys120

This is your driveway in your dreams.

http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2003-3-22&p=a&amp- ;f=8&t=53051&m=996299&auth=Homero

Mr_Shiftright

Seems to me if you owned all those cars you would have a big fence around your property and no neighbors in your face, don't you think? That looks like Cadillac country. Well I guess you could buy those houses across the street and tear them down and build garages. That'll work.

dgraves1

Those are the servants' quarters across the street, Shifty.