Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

speedshift

No, no one's going to confuse a Ferrari with a Pontiac, but I'd think at least R&T would give credit where credit is due. It really ticked off the sportscar crowd back then and I think rightfully so, but I guess that was a long time ago.

I'll look for a gently chiding letter in the next issue of R&T and if it isn't there then I'll know it's officially a non-issue.

andys120

features a cover story on "affordable Ferraris",
by which they mean 10,000-20,000 Pounds sterling
(roughly $14k-$28kUS) which certainly is affordable by Ferrari standards.

They analyze about a dozen specific cars available for sale in the UK. Needless to say the list is heavy on cars from the '70s and 80s chiefly 2+2 v12s and 308/328 variants. Cheapest is the 400i 2+2 from '79-'85 at 10,000 pounds.
Most costly at 20,000 is the Mondial Cabriolet(3.4l v8)from '89-'94.

My favorite was the 330GT 2+2 at $19,000 pounds
(second most expensive). A genuine V12 Ferrari from the 60s for
the cost of a loaded Camry($27k)! It's worth it just for those
beautiful Borrani wide rim wires.

Just about any issue of Classic & Sports Car will convince you that Brits are the car-craziest people on earth (and probably have the best taste). On sale now at your local Borders or Barnes and Noble.

merckx

I agree completely;these are about my favorites,espically the earilier quad headlamp models. I think these cars are FAR more attractive than the swoopier,suposedly more desireable two-place Ferraris. I don't know why they are undervalued by collectors-they are really sharp!

andys120

I also like the style of the quad headlamp 330 2+2
models. I thought they were kind of avant-garde looking.

andys120

Luca DiMontemezolo is said to be both surprised and furious at the recent sale of a 35% stake in Ferrari SPA to an Italian bank, Mediabanco.

The good news is that this may reduce the temptation for Fiat to "spin-off" Ferrari to
raise needed cash.

DiMontemezolo has guided Ferrari since the death of Il Commendatore in 1988, most would say rather successfully.

jrosasmc

Enzo Ferrari really controlled his company with an
iron fist, didn't he?

Mr_Shiftright

An iron fist tightly gripping everybody's .....well, nevermind.

andys120

Can't wait to hear about his pilgrimage to Maranello and his "new" 328 gts.

tsaupe1

My wife and I just got in from Italy last night, errr, morning, errr yesterday, I think. Boy, love that jet lag!

Anyway, had a great time, the country is beautiful, the people warm and the drivers crazy. We ended up getting lost in Florence trying to return a rental car. The experience caused more white knuckle than any thing that ever happened to me on the track. I highly recommend an Italian holiday.

We stopped in this little town called Maranello for a few days. They build these cars there....
For those of us who are truly lovers of Ferrari, this is the holy land. Modena and Maranello should be on every Tifosis list. The lag and space means I'll write more later but we did see the new FX, both being street tested near Abetone, on the track at Fiorano and leaving the security gates and Fiorano. It's far better looking in the flesh than in photos. If I can figure out how, I will post the photos when they return from the processor.

We watched the British Gp in the Enzo Ferrari Auditorium along with severral hundred rather biased fans, were adopted by the Ferrari C;ub of Maranello and ended up in the newspaper and on Italian tv!

There are many adventures to tell. We met a mechanic who worked for Fangio and Gonzolez, Several people who knew Enzo well and bought more stuff than we should have.

I will give more details over the next day or so, but now, I think it's time to eat breakfast, or is it dinner time? Well, at least I'm sure it's time to get the 328 back on the road!

Tom

jrosasmc

I'm just curious: Where in Italy is the Alfa Romeo factory? And just for bonus stuff, was the original Alfa Spider (1966-93) built there, or at the place where Pininfarina is located?

andys120

We're anxious to hear all about your trip. Did you pick up any buzz about the sale of 35% of Ferrari to Mediobanco? DiMontemezolo is said to have been blindsided by it and is accordingly furious.

There's a good article in the Detroit News "Autos Insider" section about it and other developments in Maranello.

Mediobanco has spun off part of it's share to the
German Kommerzbank, so for the first time a portion of Ferrari is owned by non-Italian interests.

tsaupe1

jrosasmc, Alfas are built in Milan, or actually just outside of it. Except the Alfasud (Alfa South) which is built ( I think it's still in production) outside of Naples. This latter venture was one of those government backed-improve the economy- in the impoverished south schemes. I'm not sure it worked.

The "new" factory was built in 1970, so the original spyders would have come from the older works, also in Milan.

By the way, they new spyder is ugly as sin imho, but the sedans are beautiful. Why they are thinking of coming back into the market with a station wagon is beyond me. that was the plan revealed last year at the Concorso Italiano in Carmel. I hope they've re-thought it by now.

Andys120, My Italian is not the best but the papers were full of the story. Montemezolo talked resignation but hasn't and Schumacher is asking him to stay. Makes you wonder where the real power is, doesn't it? It's a sizable share but not controlling. It will keep Ferrari out of a hostile take over for a while and help Fiat quite a bit.

Speaking of Fiat, I rented two while we were there. The first was a diesel mid-size which very well may be the worst car I have ever driven. the second was a Punto which was much better. They build a lovely ( I have no idea what it's like to drive) spyder which is quite like a Miata. It's really a great looking car.

Speaking of Alfas,let me tell you a little about Modena, and then on to Maranello tomorrow. Modena is an northern industrial city which boasts a beautiful historic center. The "old city'" or that portion defined by the parks which once were the 11th century walls, is everything you would want in a quiet, small city.

The main street which separates Modena into north and south is the Via Emilia. It's an ancient Roman road which run across, I believe, the entirety of the Emilia Romagna region. Just outside the old city is the Ferrari house. This is a large villa in the city which was Ferrari's home with his wife Laura and later his , ahem, friend. Piero still lives there.

Across the street is a bronze sculpture called the Ferrari monument. Winding around it is a history of Ferrari with the "Old Man" with famous drivers and cars. As art, it's pretty bad. But it's about the only thing left to remind you of Ferrari's connection with the city.

Around the corner on the next street is a parking garage which occupies the space where the original Scuderia Ferrari stood until just a few years ago. Modena had a chance to house the Ferrari Museum, but blew it. Anyway, this is where Ferrari worked to prepare the Alfas and Lancias before the war and after he had formally split with Alfa. This is also where the first Ferrari, the 125 was built.

As I said, up until just recently the building stood. I'm told that you could still read the sign painted on the side, Scuderia Ferrari! Another piece of history is lost to town fathers who are short sighted.

Enthusiasm is still there for the marque though. Every where you look the are flags. Models cars are in every window and behind every bar. I can personally attest to this.

More later.

T

andys120

There's even a rumor that M Schumacher will succeed DiMontemezolo (!) What did you hear about that or more important (and likely) the possibility that this is Schuey's last year in F1.

The Fiat Spider you referred to is probably the Barchetta. Perhaps it looks better in person than the pix I've seen in CAR. There's also a Barchetta coupe. Both are highly regarded by CAR
despite being fwd. (apparently everything in Italy is except exotics).

Ciao, looking forward to the next installment.

Mr_Shiftright

I kept telling everybody in News & Views that Alfa was going to fall flat on its face with trying to market a wagon and the not so good looking Spider in the USA. Thanks for re-inforcing my prejudice on that matter.

Saw not one but TWO 50s era 250 Europas today. Have never driven one and presume it is a little truck to drive but sure is beautiful. Ingrid Bergman owned one of the ones I saw and I could picture her in it, no problem.

tsaupe1

Just time for a quick note. Andys120, the thought is that Schuey wants 6 championships. That doesn't seem far-fetched. While we were there Ross Brawn said he would be staying on past his contract ending in 2004. Most think that he will replace Todt.

I doubt Schuey would replace di Montemezelo. He's not the type and has little contact with the road cars. Indeed, that's held against him by some Ferrari employees. My guess is that he replaces Piero Ferrari as over all head of the Sportivo Gestivo.

Mr. Shiftright, if you could see the Alfa sedans in the flesh, it would make you even more incredulous as to why on earth they are choosing the worst cars in their line to export to the U.S. The sedans are elegant, gracefully proportioned cars. The Spyder would make most people love my MR2 Spyder. It actually makes the new MG look good.

A little more of Italy. I'm not trying to be mysterious here, It's just the crunch of work catch up. I've a lot to do before the semester starts.

Anyway, we had our first glimpse of the Fx, now officially named the Enzo Ferrari (pleeeeaaase!!!!!). We were driving back from Firenza on the Abetone Road from Lucca. The road is through the mountains and climbs up one side and down the other. Very few straights longer than a quarter mile and switch-back and hairpin after hairpin. I was really sorry to be driving a diesel Fiat, but made the best of it.

This road is part of the test circuit that each new Ferrari is driven over when it leaves the line. Of course, like watching for the Loch Ness monster or UFO's when you want to see one, it's never their.

Finally we were nearing Maranello, back on the plains. Ahead, and coming towards us were two very low cars, nose to tail, and moving fast. They were Fx's , one Rosso and still wearing the black masking, the other Fly yellow. They went by so fast that the Fiat shook as if it had been past by a semi-trailer.

When I mentioned this experience to an Italian friend afterwards he said that Ferrari can get away with anything in the area. No one complains about red cars at excessive speeds around Maranello.

Immediate impression? About the same size as the new Lambo Murcielago. Lower though and much better looking in the flesh than in photographs. Later in the week we got a better look at one leaving Fiorano and the red one being tested at Fiorano. More about that later.

I'll write more tomorrow.

Oh, Mr. Shiftright, I've had the good fortune to drive a few cars in the 250 series. My GTE and a TDF. They were heavy and awkward until you got them moving, and then they were tremendously responsive, given the era. of course.

Tom

jrosasmc

You mentioned the start of the semester. I hope you don't mind me asking, but are you a college professor?

andys120

let's hope he sticks around. DiMontemezolo seems to have been good for Ferrari on and off the track. I doubt there'll be any SUVs or sedans on his watch. He must be tempted to go out on top. He's aware the exotic market is volatile.

It's interesting to hear they think Schuey's good for another go. Most of the skinny I've heard has him retiring, possibly to replace Todt. He must be tempted to break rather than tie Fangio's record. Stirling Moss BTW says Schuey's not the equal of Fangio. More on that in the "Talking Motorsports" topic (N&V Board).

Having seen more photos of the "Enzo" I kind of like it, it's better looking than the F50 IMO but
the tailights look like a quick afterthought (not unusual for Ferrari prototypes- "Hey Luigi, go out back and grab a couple tailights off an IVECO").

Must be a thrill these cars in their breeding grounds. Do they still use the "PROVA MO" license plates?

tsaupe1

The F2002 is so strong and, let's face it, Shumacher is so good that I can't imagine him not going for a 6th title. They're already working on the F2003 while others are still trying to find more in their current cars.

I think it's very difficult to compare drivers of different eras. when I was younger and just starting to race my hero was Jim Clark, to me, he will always be the greatest. But could he adapt to modern era cars? Could Schuey be competative in a Lotus 49? we'll never know.

Speaking of Fangio, I met one of his mechanics in Italy. He spoke no English and my Italian is poor to say the least, so I will always consider it an opportunity lost. I can't even remember his name, but he was a wrench for Fangio and Frolian Gonzalez.

Andys120, yes, some traditions are sacred. The prototypes still wear a Prova plate!

Jrosasmc, yes I am a college professor. I head a Theater Department and teach Critical Thinking and Writing in a small liberal arts school in the Northeast.

Anyway, back to Maranello. We'd had a brief drive 'round by our friend at Lamborghini so that when we went back we could navigate the important (Ferrari) parts of town. Maranello is small and has two industries. First and foremost is Ferrari. It is all pervasive. Secondly, they are a ceramic center. Odds are that the expensive ceramic tile for floor, baths and kitchens, that you may have seen, came from Maranello.

The factory is easy to find, primarily because it's huge. I had this image of the small gate with the red stucco buildings and the Ferrari sign as it appears in the old photographs. Well, it's there. I have a picture of myself standing in those gates. But what's behind them now is probably better than a square mile of factory.

Just inside the main gates, as far as you're likely to get, is a small reception area for those who are taking delivery of their cars at the factory. While we were there on Monday, there was someone taking delivery of a 575 Maranello. Behind that area the factory looks much as you've seen in the pictures.

If you walk down Via Ascari, past the gates, and take a right, a vast industrial complex is set out before you. This is where the rear gate is located. If you stand around long enough, you'll see the cars as they come off the "line" and are taken on their maiden voyage. You can just see the end of the production line from here. Security is tight. Just touch your camera and guards come running. we stood for about a half an hour and watched them do the finish cleaning and drying of a 360 Modena prior to driving it out the gate.

Behind this area is a brand new foundry for engine castings and the new wind tunnel. Yes, there is still hand work and the slow process of building these cars, but the technology is right up to date.

But I'm a bit ahead of myself. Our first day in Maranello was the Sunday of the British GP. We spent part of the day at the Galleria Ferrari before watching the race at the Enzo Ferrari Auditorium.

The Galleria is a changing display of production cars and racing machines. Last year's F1 car, along with other championship F1 cars from Surtees' car through Mansell's and Lauda's 3121 are there. The nicest part of this is that the cars are close. They are not behing glass or ropes. you can walk right up to them and really examine them. No touching or course.

Significant road cars include the 125, and all te newest models are on display. There was a special gallery of all the major cars from the 250 series, along with the original wooden body buck for the GTO!

All the major engine developments are on display including most the the significant F1 power plants. Wind tunnel models of the F1 cars, components and a mock up of a wind tunnel add to the enjoyment. Although not huge, you can definitely spend a couple of hours, in the Galleria.

If you end up feeling like a kid, you might want to try your hand at the F1 simulators. If nothing else, you recognized the challenge of just squeezing down into these cars. I'm 6'1" and it was very tight.

From the Galleria we did some shopping. As you can imagine, every piece of Ferrari merchandise you can imagine ( ad some you can't) along with memorabilia is for sale in a variety of shops. Of course, the actual Ferrari Shop, across the street from the factory, had just opened. I readily admit, I spent way too much money! BBR sure makes great diecast cars and yes, I bought the red shoes! They really do look better on. Probably because you can't see them. Well, I can see the tips beyond my belly!

We tried to get into the Cavallino Restaurant to watch the race but were told that it was reserved for Ferrari people only. They suggested we go to the center of town where there was a big screen tv. So we walked up expecting to find a cafe with an oversize Sony. Instead found the Enzo Ferrari Auditorium.

The Auditorium is a 300 seat theater with a big movie screen. It acts as a legitimate stage, movie house and lecture hall. On race Sundays, they open it to the public, free of charge, and show the digital feed of the race on the huge movie screen. Gotta have one for the bedroom!

I can't tell you how much fun it was to watch the race (and it was a good one) with a partisan crowd. It was like watching serials as a kid, we booed and hissed the bad guys and were ecstatic when "our heroes" took the day. What an experience.

Well. perhaps this is a good place to stop for the moment. Lot's more to tell. If it's too much let me know and I'll tone it down.

Tom

jrosasmc

I don't think your passage was too much; it was very clear and descriptive, just like a dissertation. That is nice that you teach Critical Thinking and Writing- I also attend a small liberal arts college in the Northeast, Vermont to be exact. I'm a political science major, but I also love intensive writing and anything to do with English literature.

andys120

from Liberal Arts professors I had when I studied them (Alfred University, Class of '65). They all drove base model Fords and Ramblers and had no interest in anything wheeled. Great people otherwise.

We must come from the same generation. I thought Clark was the greatest as well and I agree that it's hard to compare different generations but Sir Stirling has more credentials than I do so I'll hide behind him.

andys120

Check out www.barchetta.cc.

tsaupe1

Well, it appears that my computer and my ISP are back on speaking terms. Sorry I've been away. Technology is so wonderful when it works and so frustrating when it doesn't!

Having watched Shumi wrap up the championship this past Sunday, my wife and I longed to be in Maranello, because we can imagine the celebration. Here's why it's so vivid with us.

The first day we had our drive through of Maranello had also been a race Sunday. We had noticed at that time, there appeared to be a post race gathering in a small church parking area in the center of town.

Having noted this, we headed in that direction after leaving the Enzo Ferrari Auditorium at the conclusion of the British GP. We sat in a small cafe and had a wine and some food and watched the town come alive around us. There were people on bicycles and motorbikes driving around with flags and cheering, One older man pulled into the cafe on an ancient Schwinn, painted Ferrari red and with the word Ferrari carefully painted on the upright. Somehow he was waving his flag, one of the big ones, steering the bike and drinking wine simultaneously.

A small group of people was forming around the church yard, as if they were expecting something. In a few moments a 355 Spyder and a 512 TR roared up the street, horns honking and flags waving out the windows. They were being followed in procession by scooters and Fiats, all with flags. Finally they pulled into the church yard and we walked over.

It was the Ferrari Club of Maranello celebrating the 1-2 finish. The members gathered behind a long banner which established who they were, and started taking pictures of the group. There was also a television camera there.

Several members motioned for the onlookers to join them in the cheering and we stepped into the crowd, My wife explained that we were members of the Ferrari Club of America in Boston and suddenly we became instant celebreties. America! Boston! Ferrari! The President of Ferrari AMERICA IS HERE!!!

Try as I might to explain that I wasn't the president of FCA, noone seemed to really care. I was president for a few hours. Suddenly we were being intervied for Modena television news about our thoughts on the race and Ferrari's chances for the title. There was more picture taking and more cheering and suddenly we were being stuffed into a car to go over to the clubhouse for champagne and pizza!

The "clubhouse" is in a building right next door to the Scuderia. It's overlooked by Jean Todt's office. This is an obviously well connected club! Inside the clubhouse is more memorabilia than you can imagine. All the F1 drivers, and I mean everyone who has driven for Ferrari, have signed their autograph wall. There are letters from Enzo, pieces of F1 cars. Many of the members are employees of the works, but there is obviously much more of an "in" than that. I would love to have spent a quiet few hours just looking at their collection.

However, quiet was not in the plans. Along the way this group had not only picked up my wife and I but two enthusiasts from Venezuala and an owner from China who spoke no Italian and just a little English. So we became his translator! You can imagine the chaos.

Champagne and pizza were consumed, more pictures were taken, this time for the Modena Gazzette, and addresses were exchanged. We were given gifts of bread, baked in the shape of the Cavallino Rampante. One last cheer and the party broke up.

My wife and I drove back to Maranello and turned in after dinner. We turned on the tv and there we were! A story about the victory party in Maranello to celebrate the Ferrari win at Silverstone. Yes, the next day, we had our pictures in the paper as well. What a great day!

I can just imagine that they are probably still partying after the this past weekend. Wish we were there!

The following day, we spent time with friends in Modena and planned a return to Maranello in the afternoon to see the factory up and running. We saw much more than that, but more on the new car later.

I'll be back so

tsaupe1

Well, suddenly this discussion seems to have gone awfully quiet, so I'll finish up my tale of Ferrari-land.

On our second trip down to Maranello we were passed by the F1 transporters going in the opposite direction. We found out later that they were testing at Mugello. So one of my hopes was crushed. I had really thought we might have a chance of seeing the F1 cars being tested at Fiorano but now it seemed it wasn't to be.

We returned to the Galleria Ferrari to spend a little more time on a quieter day. The exhibition is really terrific, especially if you're a fan of F1. There's a good deal of interactive computer information and we were surprised to see that they had made changes to the exhibition since we had been there two days before.

Walking towards the factory, we went around to the back gate. Cameras are strictly verbotten. Security is very obvious. However, if you stand around you will see a few cars being prepped and you can see the very end of the production line.

There is the usual factory hustle-bustle with deliveries going in and an occasional new car coming out for its' first test drive. We stayed about 20 minutes, or until it appeared the guards were getting tired of our standing in the gate, gawking.

If you walk back down the street past the Galleria and take the next right you come to the Scuderia. As we got closer, we heard what we thought was an F1 car on the track at Fiorano. So we hurried to the entrance gates of the circuit.

Peering through the gates we could make out the top of an FX as it raced by. We kept watching for a moment, waiting for the car to come by on it's next lap, when suddenly the gates started swinging open. I thought the guards were on their way to tell us to leave. We started backing away from the gate, disappointed, when suddenly my wife cried out "camera!!!" I got the camera to my eye just in time to capture a yellow FX rolling out the gate, back towards the factory. It literally almost hit me. That was probably the only chance I'll ever have to touching one (LOL).

Anyway, I got a shot of the front and the rear as it drove away. It really is a far more attractive car in the flesh than in photos. The curves seem softer and more unified and from the front, the F1 nose is much less pronounced.

All this time we could still here the other car testing. There are two side streets by the Scuderia that dead end at the circuit. You can stand there and look through the fence at points where you're no more than fifty feet from the track. I was able to get several shots of the red car in motion. It still wore its black masking, so some development must still have been under tests.

It is just blindingly fast! It sounds like an F1 car and seems to corner in the same manner. It looked as if it was on rails. No lean, no back end flicking around, just driven through the corners at extraordinary speed. This really is a "super" car.

We headed back up the street as it was 5 o'clock and we needed to get back to Modena. Besides, it was obviously "quitting time." Factory workers were leaving the gates and getting on their scooters and into their Fiats. I wonder what it feels like to build Ferrari's all day and probably never have a chance to drive one?!

As we walked up the street to our car, I kept turning around every few steps assuming that the red FX would also be returning to the factory. Sure enough, in a few moments we saw it coming up the street, tailgating a Ferrari van. They were probably trying to make a glimpse just a little more difficult to get. I got one more shot of the car and it disappeared up the street.

So that was our time in Maranello. If you have any interest in Ferrari or just great cars, and you're planning a trip to Italy, put Maranello on your itinerary. It's the Tifosi Disneyland!

andys120

I'll try to get up to Emilia-Romagna when I take my wife on her dream tour of Tuscany. Meanwhile a virtual tour of Maranello is better than none.

I just flipped over the page of my Rent-A-Wreck calendar today and August features a '74 Dino 246 GT (coupe). What a beauty! I believe this is one of the two great sports cars of the 1970's, the other being the 911 Turbo.

It took over 20 years to be recognized as a true Ferrari but it always was everything an Italian sports car should be. Wish I had one.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see why there was ever an argument about the car. I mean, who built it and what kind of engine does it have? DUH!

tsaupe1

For years owners of twelve cylinder cars looked down their collective noses at Dinos. "They're great cars," they would say "but they're not Ferraris." This would usually be followed by quoting Enzo's statement about how Ferraris are twelve cylinder cars, etc.

Now I think you'd be hard pressed to find one of these die hards. Everyone accepts the Dino as a great Ferrari, perhaps one of the loveliest every built. During the boom of the eighties Dino prices rose faster than a rocket and since the bust of the nineties, they seem to have held their value more than many twelve cylinder cars.

Now I'm wondering. Due to their numbers. eights are being accorded the same lack of respect that was once lavished on the 206 and 246. I know that the numbers will keep the prices down and that actually can be a blessing. After all, it allows someone like me to own a Ferrari! However, if we removed the production numbers from the equation, if all the models since the 308 GT4 Dino had been built in more typically low Ferrari production numbers, would any of those models be vying for classic status?

Tom

Mr_Shiftright

Low production would have helped, and better performance would have helped as well. With neither going for the 308, I don't see much of a future for it as a collectible; especially since the maintenance costs are as crushing as any scarce and valuable Ferrari.

andys120

Excuse my excitement. I seldom see one in the real world, outside of car shows.

Seen tonight, moving thru light commuter traffic on a semi-rural two-lane- a new 360 Modena GTB.

Wow! It was silver looking incredibly low and wide. The big front air intakes look very dramatic (much better than in photos). The whole car manages to be dramatic without the self-conscious flamboyance of say a Countach.

I like the way you can tell a Ferrari if you know the cars but since they're rare and the lettering is small everyone else is going "what the **** is that?"

BRAVO! Ferrari and Pininfarina.

andys120

Check it out, don't know if it's on their website yet. Then we can talk about whether any car, even Ferrari's fastest could be worth......$670,000!

mshriro

Check this out:

http://www.barbiecollectibles.com/showcase/product.asp?product_id=1001012

Is this the end of life as we know it?

tsaupe1

I suppose it's rather a moot point as to whether or not it's worth it, since my understanding is that the entire production run is already sold out.

For conjectures sake however, would you even blink an eye lid if you read that some wealthy individual had just paid twice that for, oh let's say, one of the six or so Bugatti Royales? Granted, it's an incredibly rare car, but so is the Enzo. I think the production run is less than a hundred cars.

At least with the Ferrari you can enjoy driving it. Next week we'll be at Pebble Beach for the Concourse. All those beautiful cars that are valued far higher than the new Ferrari, and they are driven from the trailer onto the lawn and back again, perhaps a few times per year. It seems a shame.

To answer your question in an entirely subjective manner, yes, I think some cars are worth that kind of money. I guess the question becomes why?

Tom

andys120

I saw a 250GT California at a vintage show this w/e it was perfect, too perfect. I'm sure it was a never driven trailer queen, IMO a sad fate for a performance car especially a Ferrari.

The fact is that Cobras and vintage Ferraris and other autmotive rarities can become to valuable to drive and that to me is a shame.

Rolling sculpture is best admired while rolling.

Mr_Shiftright

There have been plenty of very expensive low production exotics in modern times whose values hav gone into the toilet. The modern Bugatti, the Jaguar XJ200. You never know how the public will take or not take to the car. Ferrari seems to do okay with this kind of thing, however. The heritage factor is very strong in the market value. Of course, if Ferrari makes too many of a certain car, then it too usually depreciates heavily, e.g. the 80s Testarossa, which is even breaking through the $30K floor now and then.

tsaupe1

Mr. Shiftright, while it's true that there are a few TRs falling below 30K most of them, like the 308s priced in the low teens are terrible automobiles that are going to give some unlucky, usually first time owner, nightmares. Good, solid examples of all the models are holding their own, and IMHO will continue to do so.

Andys120, in all fairness, part of the problem in driving exotics and antiques lately is the condition of the roads themselves. I seem to spend a lot of time just avoiding bad roads.

Today, there was a Lion's Club antique car show held on the grounds of my college. These were mostly 60's and 70's muscle cars with a few real classics thrown in. (Before some one flames me, I am not showing any disrespect for muscle cars.) Anyway, the road to the college had been completely torn up by the town and more than a few owners refused to bring their cars down it. Now that's extreme, but many public roads in central Massachusetts, where I live, are hardly any better.

Don't even get me started on the drivers we have to "share the road" with!

Lastly, if you think the Ferrari Barbie is repulsive, check out the Shuey dolls!

T

chris396

I know the roads here in Missouri are terrible. I think we rate 48th in the country. I considered buying a mid 60's 2+2 Ferrari a few years ago but the potential maintenance costs scared me away. The prices at the time were in the mid 20?s to 30?s which was in my price range. The only Ferrari I find ugly is the Superamerica.

http://www.ferraris-online.com/cars/4251/4251a.html

andys120

too big and chromey IMO. It's worth noting tho that Enzo himself had a 400 SuperAmerica at one time.

andys120

Autoweek quotes the new Enzo @ $670,000 and I find myself wondering how anyone could justify that kind if expenditure.

It's true there are wealthy tifosi who just have to have the fastest street Ferrari you can get and they have sold around 100 of the damn things ($67 million worth!).

If it were me I'd be inclined to put the money into a historic vintage racer. I'll bet you can get some very nice, very rare cars for that kind of dough. What's a McLaren M8D go for?

Speaking of McLaren how does the Enzo perform compared to the McLaren F1 road car (appx. $1 million new)?

Mr_Shiftright

tsaupe -- I'm gonna respectfully disagree on some Ferrari models. I think eventually any mass produced Ferrari like the 308 or TR will become parts cars for the few remaining trailer queens because as they age they will become too expensive to fix up and won't be restored because it isn't worth it. It's already bad enough, What's a carburated 308 with a blown engine worth? Practically nothing. Who in his right mind would buy such a car?

It's like with modern Corvettes. They won't ever be worth much because they are cranking out 34,000 a year of them.

If you want to retain value, do not buy a 308 or Testarossa is my advice. The cellar has not yet been reached.

tsaupe1

Mr. Shiftright, Of course I see your point. And I recognize that I am biased, being an owner. So let's agree to disagree, since I think we'll never find a truly common ground on this subject.

One thing I think we can agree on though is that there are some breathtaking Ferraris and they keep turning up. I was at Pebble Beach last weekend and was enraptured by the 212 Inter that took best of class and "best personality" for the open sportscars. This two tone green beauty was one of the most beautiful cars, let alone Ferraris, I've ever seen.

What was somewhat ironic was that the car was restored by a Ferrari specialist who used to work on my Dino. He's now with Paul Russell, formerly Gullwing Motors, right here in Massachusetts. Small world!

The whole Monterey "car guy" weekend was great as usual, Concorso Italiano, Historic Races at Laguna Seca and Pebble. We nearly went into internal combustion overload! I'm surprised Edmunds doesn't have some presence there!

Mr_Shiftright

Well, Edmunds does not work in the collectible car pricing market.

Couldn't make Pebble this year. I usually make it a point to sneak into the Concorso Italiano, and buy my way into the races, but I'm really done with the lawn cars on Sunday. It's just too static and too crowded for me, and the theme car this year was of no interest to me.

andys120

The September issue of CAR has a good article including driving impressions of the new Ferrari
Enzo (I refuse to say Ferrari Enzo Ferrari). They have some good information comparing the Enzo to the other megabucks supercar based on modern F1 tech, the McLaren F1.

Unfortunately the comparisons aren't based on driving because at this point in time there's probably no one on earth who has actually driven both. CAR concludes that the F1 is probably faster at top end and has better brakes and cockpit layout while the Enzo appears to have better aerodynamics hence better cornering and
greater high speed stability.

Comparative prices new : Ferrari Enzo-$675kUS, McLaren FF1-lmillionUS.

If you're interested in the Enzo, have a look.
M Schumacher comments are included as well.

tsaupe1

I wouldn't mind owning either car. I'm sure the differences become slight at that end of the spectrum. Let's see, if I continue to teach with a small (very, very small) raise each year, I can buy one new in......239 years. Easy!

Is any one in the New England area attending the Concours at Castle Hill on September 22nd?

jrosasmc

What do you make of certain early '80s Ferraris, such as the original Mondial and 308 GTS? I've seen some examples being advertised for $20k or less (the figures are for 1980 models).

Of course, the maintenance/service costs would still kill mere mortals like me. And they're probably not meant for daily driving either.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the 328 GTS (1986-89) is a much, much better choice, even though you have to pay around $40K. It's a very reliable car, way faster than a 308, prettier by tens, totally proven and sorted out, and you don't have to remove the engine to service it. Also, it's not super high tech like the newer Ferraris, so you can actually fix them with a wrench. Plain old Bosch fuel injection just like any other 80s car. You can't even give away a carburetted 308 in California because you can't smog them.

Basically, as shocking as it sounds, any 308 that needs some mechanic and cosmetic work, even if it's running, is a parts car. It's an easy way to throw away money, buying a cheap 308.

jrosasmc

You have to remove the engine on a 308 just to service it?

Mr_Shiftright

No, I don't think so in most cases but some other Ferrari models of that general era, yes you do. There's a special cradle the dealer has and you just drop the whole drivetrain onto it and wheel it out....well, not "just" but it is a planned service exercise.

tsaupe1

I've had experience with carburreted 308s and injected 328's and the 328 is a much easier car to live with. The carburreted cars make great sounds and are faster, but they can be finicky and require the services of an experienced Ferrari mechanic. Plugs can be easily fouled and non-synched carburretors can cause backfires which are potentially dangerous.

Although in the area I live in the smog issues are not the same as in California, I can see how it would be a problem.

The 328, on the other hand, is a rock solid car. They're immensely reliable and require far less upkeep. I've had mine for nearly six months now and use it (weather permitting) as an almost daily driver. In that time I've had it in the shop (other than oil changes) once to put it on the scope and adjust the CO levels. It took less than an hour, which by Ferrari standards is cheap.

Except for major services which include belts, etc., the 308/328 engine can be serviced in the car. The only service I remember having the engine out on was a clutch. And yes, you can due quite bit of work on them if you've the time, tools and space. However, as with any exotic, make friends with a good service facility.

The 328 is a great car. I have absolutely no regrets in having bought one, although I still miss my Dino. Although the prices here in the Northeast are a bit stronger, probably due to availability, they really are a reasonably priced way to get into the Ferrari market. If you can find one, the GTB's are an even greater buy!

jrosasmc

What year's the 328?

tsaupe1

I'm fortunate to own a 1988 GTS, Nero Metallico over red.

bbone8v

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