Ferrari-the Ultimate classic (Ferrari Lovefest Topic)

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, it's Raymond! Now what are you building?

jrosasmc

Do you know the story about the Ferrari Spyder that was used in the TV show "Miami Vice?" Was it actually a real Ferrari, or did the producers use a different car like, say, a Corvette with a Ferrari body on top of the underpinnings?

merckx

It was a Corvette,all right.

andys120

was fairly commonplace in the 80s. Ferrari SPA sued the maker for stealing their styling ("infringement of trade dress" or something), IIRC
they were successful.

Mr_Shiftright

I guess it shows you which car the TV show thought was disposable. Or maybe that they'd needed a car that would be ready to roll everyday--lol!

There's a replica that fits on a Pontiac Fiero as well. You see them at auctions now and then, but I've never seen anybody buy one.

Exactly WHY you spend $35,000 to replicate a car worth $30,000 and then sell the replicar for $5,000 is somewhat beyond me right now. Maybe I missed something clever here.

jrosasmc

Per Magnum P.I., I'm assuming that he switched over to the 328 series when they came out in late '85. Otherwise, I'm not so sure how he survived with a measly 308 for all eight years.

Mr_Shiftright

This is TV. You never run out of bullets and your computer boots up in 2 seconds and lovers never burp at the wrong moment.

andys120

on a 1969 Daytona 365 GTB/4, European, glass-nose, Rosso Red w 5-Spoke Alloys.

This car would be perfect except for one thing....It's 1/18th scale. Seriously, if you are into miniature cars, this is the best Ferrari replica I've seen yet. It's beautifully detailed, they got the proportions exactly right and this is very close to exactly how I'd want a real Daytona. I've always preferred alloys to wires,and coupes to Spiders on these cars. The only thing I'd change is the color (I prefer Fly Yellow , Silver or Black).

It's $59.95 from Exoticar and they claim it's one of only 500.

Some time ago the Mattel Company acquired an exclusive on production of Die-cast Ferraris, which was unfortunate, because the Mattel "Hot Wheels" Ferraris, while cheap(about $30)are poor replicas lacking detail and correct proportions. Most of them are knock-offs of older models previously released by Bburago and others.

This new Daytona is from Kyosho, which makes a great line of classic sports cars. I have no idea how they got around Mattel's monopoly but I hope they can do more Ferrraris.

P.S.-Kyosho's older 1/18th 512 BB is worthwhile as well.

tsaupe1

Andys120. you're right about Kyosho. They really get the details right. I bought a Lotus Europa made by Kyosho during a fit of nostalgia and just like my old twin cam, a part fell off as soon as I took it out of the box, LOL!

The Mattel models are not as good as when Minichamps had the license. I've bought a few, mostly the F1 cars because they are the only game-in-town. Lately I've been buying more 1/43, as the selection is larger and many of them are beautiful models. The BBR models most especially.

On the subject of "fake" Ferrari's, the Fiero club meet pretty regularly in a town close to me. There are several kit 308s and 328s among them. Most of them decked out with authentic badges, tail lights and occasionally almost complete interiors. What's the point of sinking that kind of money into something that is no longer fish nor foul.

It strikes me that if I was going to build a kit car, I'd like something that I could individualize and make a personal statement with as opposed to a pseudo-Ferrari. IMHO.

andys120

reads a bumper sticker seen on a 360 Modena parked in a space reserved for John Coletti, chief of Ford SVT.

YEAH RIGHT!

-Autoweek Magazine

Mr_Shiftright

Fiero Ferraris aren't "fish nor fowl". They are most definitely fakes, no two ways about it. And I have a MAJOR objection to putting a Ferrari badge on it. It's like telling lies in public.

dgraves1

Quoted from Shifty:
"Exactly WHY you spend $35,000 to replicate a car worth $30,000 and then sell
the replicar for $5,000 is somewhat beyond me right now. Maybe I missed
something clever here. "

??? A Ferrari Daytona Spyder is only worth $30,000? You must be thinking of Fiero based 308 kits. Hard to imagine putting a Daytona body on a Fiero space frame.

Mr_Shiftright

I was thinking of a 308 Spyder, which is a common body type for the Fiero kit and worth about $30K. I've never seen a fake Daytona Spyder myself but I guess they are out there.

andys120

Don Johnson drove a fake Daytona Spyder in the first years of Miami Vice. It was based on a Corvette. By the time the series was over he'd acquired a real Testarossa, just the thing for an undercover cop to tool around in.

Ferrari SPA sued the makers of Daytona replica bodies for infringement of trade dress. I think they were successful.

Anything new on Carroll Shelby's similar suit
against Cobra replicas?

dgraves1

OK, I've often wondered about some of the kits that would cost almost as much to build as the real thing. Examples: a Miata based Z3, a Mustang based Mercedes SL (last generation, not the current one) and a Corvette based Viper.

Mr_Shiftright

One can only wonder what motivates people in those cases....

Are you sure that was a fake Daytona Spyder in Miami Vice? You mean the 1972-73 365 GTS/4 ?

andys120

and I recall that if you looked closely you could see a tell-tale or 2. Can't remember what it was
but then again Miami Vice seems like a long time ago.

I remember this too, officially it's not a 365 GTS/4. Oddly it's a 365 GTB/4 Daytona Spider. So says Geoffrey Eaton in "the Complete Ferrari" (1989) p. 182.

I hate to contradict the knowledgeable Mr. Shiftright but I consider Eaton's book the Bible.

Telling me he's wrong would be like telling Jerry Falwell there's not going to be a Second Coming.

Mr_Shiftright

There is a 365 GTB/4C, a very rare car made by the factory, only 15 of them, and there is also a 365 GTS/4 Daytona Spyder of which 124 were made. So it could be either, both are "real" cars.

ndance

As a TV-less person, my opinions on Miami Vice are pretty sketchy...but I seem to think that the car is a McBurnie Corvette kit car Ferrari thingie.

I guess Don Johnson has a thing for replica cars...doesn't that detective in S.F. show have a fake hemicuda convertible?

andys120

or at least a rebadged '70 Cuda convertible.

Mr_Shiftright

Doubtful it's a real Hemi Cuda convertible, as there couldn't be more than a handful of them ever made---maybe 10-20 of them.

andys120

a kid's sled when they cranked that Hemi.

ndance

I seem to remember an article talking about Don Johnson's discussions with the shows producers. He had seen a yellow '71 car (probably in the Otis Chandler book, I imagine) and wanted one. After a bit of research, the 250k-400k purchase price (or whatever) caused some consternation so they had several cars built by that place in Texas that advertises clones in Hemmings.

I believe that of the 4 or so cars built (jeez, probably a stunt car, spare car, camera car, whatever) half were 1970's and half were 1971's (the early cars getting nose and fender graftings). They also played with the color to get the right shade, glass to glass, through the TV (NTSC- never the same color twice).

tsaupe1

I remember reading somewhere that that the 365 Daytona Spider was based on a Corvette. There were a few tell tale signs that it was a fake. One of them very obvious. If you watch closely, it's an automatic!

Ferrari raised a stink ad sued the manufacturer and then gave Miami Vice two black TRs. They painted the cars white for night filming purposes. They also had a TR replica (Fiero, again) which was the stunt car.

A friend emailed me an Ebay auction today for a Mondial Cab, 3.2 which had been wrecked. His suggestion was to buy the car and drop a Fiero body on it! LOL

T

Mr_Shiftright

Actually that makes more sense--at least it would be fun to drive.

andys120

that this year is the 40th anniversary of the GTO,
the Real GTO (Ferrari 250). Wish there was some good way to celebrate but Exoto's scale model doesn't come out till next year.

speedshift

It's 2004 already? ;-)

I'll take my answer off the air.

andys120

tsaupe1

Just wanted to take a moment and wish every one on the thread a Happy Holiday. I've enjoyed "talking" with you all. Have a happy and prosperous (an F car in every garage) New Year!

Tom

andys120

andys120

In the interest of stirring things up let me state a proposition: The '69 365 GTB/4 known as the "Daytona" looks cleaner and more modern to me than it's modern-day equivalent the 550/575 Maranello.

Feel free to agree or disagree.

jrosasmc

I strongly agree that the Daytonas are cleaner-looking than the current Maranello series. However, if I was looking for a Ferrari, I would definitely go for the later Dino 246 GTS. I think they are fantastic-looking vehicles and have great performance, even with a V-6. Sure, maintenance and repair costs will be a killer, but that's not what owning a Ferrari is about, right?

andys120

especially the 246GTS. It's probably the best sports car (as oppossed to GT) that Ferrari ever built. I also like their successors the 360 Modenas which though somewhat luxurious retain the "race car for street" appeal of the Dinos and they are really good looking.

I'm also a fan of the Fiat Dino sports cars, both Coupe and Spider that shared the 2.4 v6 w the
(Ferrari)Dinos.

tsaupe1

Happy New Year, a bit belatedly. Sorry Andys120, I can't agree with you about the Daytona being sleeker than the 550/575 Maranello. I certainly won't argue that the Daytona isn't one of the most beautiful cars ever made, let alone by Ferrari, but I think the wind tunnel tested Maranello is a sleeker vehicle. Many of the attributes that make the Daytona beautiful keep it from being slippery.

I, too, love the 206/246 Dino. Great car, but the ultimate sportscar? Sorry, I disagree there as well. To me, the ultimate will always be the 250 GTO.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could gather them together and spend a few days (weeks, months) admiring, driving and trying to decide who's right?!

I'm sitting here in Massachusetts freezing and wishing this #@*% winter would end so my car could go back on the road. Having this thread active agin helps.

Tom

andys120

you mean sleek in the aerodynamic sense and you're right. The "wind-tunnel tested" Maranellos are likely much more "slippery" than the Daytonas with their rounded noses (can you say "front-end lift?")

I'm talking more about styling and to show what I mean look at the bulge and scoop in the center of the 550/575 hood and then look at the smooth expanse of the Daytona hood broken only by two small reverse scoops that are recessed, not protruding.

I think of the 250GTOs as race cars, rather than sports cars although I grant you it comes from the last era where there might be some confusion between the two.

BTW-Buon Anno Nouvo! I don't think winter's ever gonna be over in NH either, in fact it's getting colder instead of warmer. Where's that damned January thaw?

idletask

This is my personal favorite in the current lineup. Maybe not a true sports car by definition, but a sub 20 seconds time for the kilometer from a dead stop is phenomenal. On par or better than sports motorbikes out there. Whew. Bye bye Vipers, Murciélago et al.

I like its lines too, even though many people will not agree. But the resulting drag coefficient clearly points where the design was headed. Talk about a collector's car, only 349 are scheduled for production and all of them are already sold... even though it costs more than $600k!

dgraves1

I'll withhold final judgement on the F60 until I actually see one but based on pictures, I think it's one of the least attractive Ferraris ever.
andy - Not sure I agree with the more modern part of your statement but I think the Daytona is the most beautiful car ever, especially in spyder form.

dgraves1

By the way, I would certainly hope the F60 would outperform cheap cars like a Murcielago and a Viper.

andys120

according to Ferrari it's an "Enzo", not that Ferrari Enzo doesn't seem a little awkward.

tsaupe1

I saw the Enzo in motion while in Italy this past summer and was surprised by how much better it looked "in the flesh" than in the photographs. I can add that having seen it being tested at speed on the Fiorano test track, it'll go by so fast that no one will be able to tell what it looks like.

Andy, I agree with you regarding the Daytona. It is sleeker in that sense but I wonder what you think of it compared to one of my other favorites the 275 GTB/4 long nose. The 275 is taller in profile but still retains that "in motion standing still" look that only the front engines V12's have.

Dgraves1, If I remember the figures correctly, the Enzo outperforms both with a possible exception of 0-60 times for the Viper. Speaking of the Murcielago, I think it's the best looking Lambo since the Miura.

Tom

andys120

There's something wrong when more people are talk-
ing about Mercury Marquis Broughams than about Daytonas and Dinos.

Tsaupe, I definitely put the Daytona ahead of the
275 GTB/4s. To me it's more modern looking with
it's trick headlight treatments and highly raked windshield. My cousin owned a 275. IIIRC it was the earlier 2-cam and he disagrees w me on this. Like many he sees the Daytonas as too "Italian Corvette".

I think there's more Italian Corvette in the Maranellos than in the Daytonas

tsaupe1

Oh no. I could never think that way. it's not that I have anything against Corvettes, but both the 275 and the Daytona are in a different league, IMHO.

Andy, you mentioned the Daytona headlights and it reminded me of something. The year before last when my wife and I were at Concorso Italiano, Sergio Pininfarina was the honoured guest. He talked about all of the Pininfarina designs and then told a story about the headlights on the Daytona. He told how shocked he was when he found out American owners were having their pop-up lights removed and the plexiglass covers installed to give the car that smooth Euro look. US owners at that time assumed this was another government conspiracy where-in some do-gooder paper pusher decided that the Euro lights were too dangerous for Americans. Much like what happened with the E-Type Jag.

 Anyway, Mr. Pininfarina said the fact of the matter was that the plexi covers diffused too much light and didn't, in their opinion, provide enough night visibility. They meant the pop-ups as a fix, not a design concession! He begged any owner who was considering the change not to do it.

Well, that was long winded. You're right Andy, I'm glad to see this board active again.

Tom

andys120

I wqas unaware they changed them for that reason. I thought they did it to please Americans who disliked the plexiglass covers.

I much prefer the look of the plexiglass but it is nice to be able to see at night.

idletask

Two of them:

- 360 Modena Stradale: a Modena, just more race ready (5 point harnesses, improved brakes...);

- new 456 GT: a 4 seater, designed by P-you-know-who, equipped with a detuned (500hp vs 660) version of the Enzo's 6.0l V12.

Rumor: 360 should be restyled by September of this year and receive the 4.2l V8 developped by Ferrari for Maserati, to the tune of 460hp.

And of course, all of them will cost more than $100k... And of course again I'm quite sure Ferrari will sell every one of them

tsaupe1

The latest Forza arrived today with spy photos of the new 456. the car is heavily disguised but there are a few things evident. perhaps most striking is that it has huge Brembo brakes. the calipers and discs are much bigger than on the old car. I assume that means only one thing...fast!

I understand that it's not going to be a complete four seater either. evidently it will be a roomier 2+2 but not quite a full 4 seater. Ferrari is planning to introduce a new Maserati to fill that niche.

Otherwise, it looks longer, although that may be an illusion of the ludicrous tacked on panels. The windshield looks a bit more raked. Somewhere I remember seeing a design drawing for the update and the sides were far more simply styled between the A and B pillars.

My understanding regarding the powerplant was that it was a modification of the 575M engine, and not a derivative of the Enzo.

I've seen pictures of the Stradale. It is very close to a 360M with some not very attractive graphics. However, if it really is a challenge car the stripes will be obliterated with sponsorship decals in no time.

dgraves1

From what I read in this week's Autoweek, the Stradale is basically a race-ready Modena. Or you could view it as a streetable Challenge. Two different views of the same thing I guess.

dgraves1

Another interesting tidbit in this week's Autoweek: Daytonas may be the only car in existence where a chop top convertible is worth more than the coupe. There was a converted Daytona in there went for $180K. Keith Martin seemed to think that was not unreasonable for this model.

andys120

a number of 250GT California Spider bodies have been installed on chassis from the 250GTE (2+2).

Lasst I checked these "replica Californias" were worth more than a 250GTE,

dgraves1

I assume you mean that these are real Ferrari bodies on real Ferrari chassis not a replica body, correct? I guess the real value then is in original Ferrari sheetmetal, rather than the running gear.

andys120

as opposed to the topless real bodies on the Daytona Spider fakes.