Well 308s are in the tank too so the same issue of too many cars and too high maintenance applies to both cars or any old Ferrari that isn't special in some way.
Not all Ferraris are valuable by any means, and I believe that soon enough you'll see old TRs scrapped for parts, just like old Rolls sedans are now.
Autoweek indicates a recent sale which is interesting in light of recent discussion on this board regarding mid-engine flat12 Ferraris.
A '74 365GT/BB sold for over $68,000. AWs collector car expert Ken Martin says the market for BBs is picking up as the cars becopme "old enough to be collectible".
He says this doesn't yet apply to Testarossas which are still in the "used car" phase.
I'm no expert but $68k seems awfully cheap for a 12 cylinder Ferrari at the high performance level of the Boxer Berlinettas.
I know, wait til he gets the bill for the 60k service!
I don't have the schedule in front of me, but a lot of the difficulty is access, the cost of parts ($100 per drive belt, replace ALL ---Ka-Ching!) and the cost of labor, say at $100/hr here in California.
Tune up, replace both distributor CAPS @ $485 per cap Ka-ching!
I guess I can almost understand the $100 belts. Any belt that's built to go to 7 grand(?) repeatedly for 60k miles, stay in its pulleys and not break has to be pretty special.
The $485 distributor caps do mystify me. At that price I might be tempted to try cleaning the contacts with light sandpaper :-).
Ah, but then it might not run right if the rotor-distributor gap is too large or the contacts too corroded. This cars need to be spot on to perform properly.
The biggest maintenance problem with Boxers is that they were never imported into this country by the factory. They are all grey market cars brought in by individuals and brought into EPA and DOT conformance by various contractors.
The shop that does my work had three in the last time I was there and said that all three were "cleaned up" by different shops and with varying degrees of expertise and workmanship. For this reason, my shop considers them potential nightmares to work on.
On the subject or price and mass production, there is a degree of relativity here. I own (and love) a '79 308 Dino gt4. In their six years of production something like 2100 cars of this model were produced for worldwide distribution (except Italy who had the 208). That's not a lot of cars, but it's mass production for Ferrari. Yes, there are a lot of TR's and 308's around, but that's still not many in comparison to other cars, even other sports cars. how many vette's are built every year?
Lastly, yes, I can tell you that some maintenance costs are high. I was taken aback by the cost of shocks ($500 each) but found other jobs reasonable, especially compared to what my 300E Mercedes used to cost. Now that was always a shock!
I think a lot of it is, parts-price-wise, that you're dealing with a lot of parts that are made in minute quantities. I'm sure it costs just as much to tool up a Distributo cap for a 500SEL as it does for a TR, but when ou are only making a few thosand if that... versus maybe a Hundred thousand..yadda yeadda... etc.
And Jrosasmc, They are a better bet for a shadetree mechanic than a Boeing 737, but only marginally.
Also the parts are distributed only by a few vendors, so the competition isn't all that good among them.
I believe about 34,000 Corvettes are made every year which is why they won't become very valuable as they age. Of course, they will still have value as used cars since they perform so well and don't cost too much to maintain (unless you crash one).
I was participating in an Italian Car Day at the local Museum of Transportation this weekend and have fallen madly in love (lust?) with a metallic gun metal grey 328 gtsi.
Great car in, apparently, great shape, though I haven't driven it yet (I will this week). It would mean parting with my much loved 308 Gt4 Dino. but here are a few of my thoughts.
Besides those beautiful Pinifarina curves and an open top, the car is just newer than mine. Newer technology and nearly ten years younger. I drive my car a lot. The miles are beginning to add up and I don't want to drive it less. So am I better off with a newer car?
Also, I'm not made of money and I'm thinking that the additional up front cost may be partially made up with fewer repairs. Of course, I understand that a Ferrari is the automotive equivalent to owning a boat. You know, the hole in the water you throw money into!
I'm open to all thoughts and opinions. What do you folks think?
The car is an '88, pre-ABS and has 31K on the odo. It has been maintained since warranty by the people who do my work, Boston Sportscar. So yes, I have complete records and it has just had it's major (belts, etc.) In contrast, my Dino, a '79, has 39K on it and is one year off it's major.
The car has been well maintained so the seemingly high mileage doesn't bother me too much. Actually, you need to be even more careful of the garage queens that are never driven. You're really better off with a car that has been driven but well taken care of.
Upon first inspection the body seems fine, I will look closer when I next see it and put it on the lift. As the weather here in the northeast has again decided not to cooperate, I won't drive it until the latter part of the week, as opposed to tomorrow (Wed.).
As far as the colour is concerned, the deep mettalic grey looks good with the red interior. The interior, by the way, is the optional full leather interior, including the top of the dash (vinyl on most cars).
Well I'm thinking the best possible GTS with no "excuses".
Of course, if you are ready to deal and you have the right Ferrari owner ready to bail out, you could do better. I'd prefer to pay about $35K for a really sweet car. Bill got in wholesale.
Yeah, for that kinda $$ it had better be perfect or damn close. No paintwork, all books, no problems, passes a pre-buy, etc. And I think $40K had better be all the $$ for a Grey/Red car. The Grey Ferraris are gorgeous, and rarer than red cars.
But valuewise? I dunno. I would rather have a red car in Inventory. I mean, Purple XK8s are rarer than Sapphire Blue or Silver ones and all )
First, price. Folks, please don't take this as some kind of snobbery, it really isn't, but I would prefer not to name a price. I haven't begun to negotiate and there are many variables involved. However, let me say that the asking price is in line with the upper side of those mentioned above.
Mr. Shiftright, it is a GTS. the GTB is more affordable, and actually has cleaner lines but I love an open top. I spent the day blasting around town in my MR2 Spyder and just loved the feeling of top down driving. Since a 250 California Spyder is beyond my means and the Mondial doesn't excite me, the targa roof is the closest I'll get to an open Ferrari for a while.
Mr. Shiftright and Brentwoodvolvo, I know that everyone wants a red Ferrari. that includes the local police. Since one of my reasons for thinking about a newer car is to keep it longer, resale isn't a current consideration. So the sale ability of colour isn't as important a consideration. Besides, I have to live with it and frankly I think the car's lines work better on a dark car.
As a side note on colour, Mr. Shiftright. I saw a light green 308 GTS at the recent meet and it was beautiful. However, it looked an olive lost in a jar of pimentos.
Lastly, Andys120, I am aware of the cost of maintaining a Ferrari. My concerns are not maintenance but something unexpected that crops up from abuse (gearbox) or neglect (seals). I have a penchant for keeping cars properly maintained. Well, except my Jeep which I sometimes ignore. My wife claims I have a deathwish towards it.
I'll keep all informed as things progress. Thanks to everyone!
Besides, I have to live with it and frankly I think the car's lines work better on a dark car.
THen that is what Matters. My favorite colors? Blue and Grey. Again, I'm that Trade-In Value guy, so I get market pricing in my head. Buy what YOU like as it is YOUR car.
If you're in line with our guides, you're at a fair price I think if the car is nice. I would, as you and I both know what its' like to own these little buggers, have a pre-buy done if it were me. I did blow a tranny in my 348 I used to own, my checkbook didn;t find it too amusing.
So keep us posted, but go and have fun! The 328 is a GREAT car, you will love it!
308s are going to get cheaper and cheaper, so just hang on and you may very well be able to afford one....well, afford to BUY one at least. I don't know about repairs. Depends on the one you buy, as with any Ferrari.
If you DO buy a 308, the one to get its the Quattrovalve. The 8-valve injected cars? Slugs. 0-60 upper7s/low 8s. Yeah it's quick and all I suppose.. but for a Ferrari? And the carb cars can be a pain to get running right.
But the QVs are also worth a bit more. But money VERY well spent.
You could do a lot worse than a 308 GT4 Dino. Their performance is quite adequate, they are slightly faster than the original 308 GTB/GTS and because of their long wheel base, they ride and handle a bit better.
As far as the carbs are concerned, the challenge lies in finding someone who can still set up and sync multiple carbs. Once I had mine set up properly, it was like driving a new car and the set up has lasted.
Of course, the real trick is get a good car to start with. The prices have put them in the range of too many people who can "buy it but not maintain it." There are, unfortunately, too many worn out cars on the market, more than there should be.
Here's an interesting tidbit I read in the most recent issue of Automobile Magazine, in the Auctions section: "The Espada, like all Lamborghinis, are notoriously temperamental. They tend to have very low mileage, since nobody knew how to keep one running for very long." Are Lamborghinis really a b___h to keep running right? It seems like it's a big deal to those that own the cars, since parts and service are going to take a big chunk out of their checkbooks.
We drove the car several times over the last few days. It's in great shape, drives beautifully and runs well. Broker will fill, touch up and blend two small chips in nose paint, do a complete set up and of course, detail the car. These are my usual guys and I trust them completely.
Mechanicals all check out and we have agreed on a fair price. I have a interested buyer in the 308, so all is coming together. On Monday I will see all the paperwork but I am not expecting any surprises. Actually, I'm bringing the checkbook with me.
The 328 has the revised clutch linkage, so the clutch is easier to work. This is important since my wife, because of her back, could never drive the 308 due to the enormously heavy clutch. If I can figure out how, I will post a photo, assuming everything goes as expected.
Lambos. I was in a new Murcielago (sp?) over the weekend. Nice car but a little cramped if you're 6' 1" like me. However, bearing on the discussion, there was another in for it's 1500 mile check up. It had an electrical short which had taken out most of the system. the brand new one that I was in had a "clunk" which sounded and acted like a broken shock but the shocks were fine.
Countach owners have told me to expect to put in a clutch every 5000 Miles! I had one exowner tell me that a flatbed should be a standard accessory for a Countach. They sound like a bigger nightmare than my Lotuses were. Of course, I owned two of those, so how stupid am I? LOL.
My understanding is that because Lambo is so much smaller (poorer) than Ferrari, they can't devote the money to doing as much R&D as they should and actually do most of it on early production cars. Plunk down your $300K and be a test driver for Lambo!
Ferraris have always received lots of development from racing. Lamborghini never raced and it shows.
Any big powerful car is going to be tough on clutches I think, but especially when driven by meatheads, which happens now and then as you know in the exotic car world.
I just got wind of a "68" Ferrari buried in a garage nearby. As the appraiser I cannot have a financial interest in the car but it will be interesting to see exactly what it is. Hopefully not a 2+2. Comes with another car, a '74 Rolls, which you can't give away, so maybe someone can buy the package of 2 at a good price. Sometimes you can sell old Rolls of that vintage to delirious wannabees who haven't a clue what they are in for. Ferrari maintenance would be like a Tercel compared to a tired 70s Rolls.
Well, we've done it. We'll take delivery tomorrow for a week's worth of run-in. As we're off to Italy next Friday, including time in Maranello and a tour of Lamborghini (can't wait}, we'll drive the car for a week and then return it, with a list, to the shop.
We've hemmed and hawed over keeping the 308 and to be honest it's still up in the air. However, we have several people interested and might be able to sell it at a profit, so it would be hard to justify keeping it. I l know it will be like a few other cars I've owned where a year from now I'll be saying "I should never have sold it!"
Anyway, wish us luck with the 328, as always. I'll keep everyone posted.
Just wondering what you guys think about all the hoopla over the "resurrection of the GTO", the Holden from Australia. Even a knuckle-dragging Pontiac lover like me knows the "original GTO" wasn't the original GTO, yet neither R&T or C&D mention this. GM cashes in on the name once again!
Have a great time in Italy and if you see the Papa di Auomobili(diMontemezolo) tell him not to worry about Schumacher. It looks like he'll be champion again without any help from Barrichello.
Comments
Not all Ferraris are valuable by any means, and I believe that soon enough you'll see old TRs scrapped for parts, just like old Rolls sedans are now.
A '74 365GT/BB sold for over $68,000. AWs collector car expert Ken Martin says the market for BBs is picking up as the cars becopme "old enough to be collectible".
He says this doesn't yet apply to Testarossas which are still in the "used car" phase.
I'm no expert but $68k seems awfully cheap for a 12 cylinder Ferrari at the high performance level of the Boxer Berlinettas.
I know, wait til he gets the bill for the 60k service!
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
What else goes with the 60k service?
Tune up, replace both distributor CAPS @ $485 per cap Ka-ching!
Just a few minor examples.
The $485 distributor caps do mystify me. At that price I might be tempted to try cleaning the contacts with light sandpaper :-).
The shop that does my work had three in the last time I was there and said that all three were "cleaned up" by different shops and with varying degrees of expertise and workmanship. For this reason, my shop considers them potential nightmares to work on.
On the subject or price and mass production, there is a degree of relativity here. I own (and love) a '79 308 Dino gt4. In their six years of production something like 2100 cars of this model were produced for worldwide distribution (except Italy who had the 208). That's not a lot of cars, but it's mass production for Ferrari. Yes, there are a lot of TR's and 308's around, but that's still not many in comparison to other cars, even other sports cars. how many vette's are built every year?
Lastly, yes, I can tell you that some maintenance costs are high. I was taken aback by the cost of shocks ($500 each) but found other jobs reasonable, especially compared to what my 300E Mercedes used to cost. Now that was always a shock!
Tom
And Jrosasmc, They are a better bet for a shadetree mechanic than a Boeing 737, but only marginally.
You were joking, right?
Bill
it should have been $78,400. My bad.
It' still in the same ballpark as some recent prices for Detroit made "Muscle" collectibles.
Go figure.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I believe about 34,000 Corvettes are made every year which is why they won't become very valuable as they age. Of course, they will still have value as used cars since they perform so well and don't cost too much to maintain (unless you crash one).
Great car in, apparently, great shape, though I haven't driven it yet (I will this week). It would mean parting with my much loved 308 Gt4 Dino. but here are a few of my thoughts.
Besides those beautiful Pinifarina curves and an open top, the car is just newer than mine. Newer technology and nearly ten years younger. I drive my car a lot. The miles are beginning to add up and I don't want to drive it less. So am I better off with a newer car?
Also, I'm not made of money and I'm thinking that the additional up front cost may be partially made up with fewer repairs. Of course, I understand that a Ferrari is the automotive equivalent to owning a boat. You know, the hole in the water you throw money into!
I'm open to all thoughts and opinions. What do you folks think?
Tom
But 328s are hot. I dunno about a Titanio Grigio one tho... But I love the color myself. Red is better..
Bill
I imagine the same applies to exotic Italian cars.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The car has been well maintained so the seemingly high mileage doesn't bother me too much. Actually, you need to be even more careful of the garage queens that are never driven. You're really better off with a car that has been driven but well taken care of.
Upon first inspection the body seems fine, I will look closer when I next see it and put it on the lift. As the weather here in the northeast has again decided not to cooperate, I won't drive it until the latter part of the week, as opposed to tomorrow (Wed.).
As far as the colour is concerned, the deep mettalic grey looks good with the red interior. The interior, by the way, is the optional full leather interior, including the top of the dash (vinyl on most cars).
Good
What they want for it?
Bill
Are we talking around $40K here?
I bought one for $33K not TOO long ago, and it was Red/Tan, 30K done.. an 87. 23K miles.
Bill
Of course, if you are ready to deal and you have the right Ferrari owner ready to bail out, you could do better. I'd prefer to pay about $35K for a really sweet car. Bill got in wholesale.
Yeah, for that kinda $$ it had better be perfect or damn close. No paintwork, all books, no problems, passes a pre-buy, etc. And I think $40K had better be all the $$ for a Grey/Red car. The Grey Ferraris are gorgeous, and rarer than red cars.
But valuewise? I dunno. I would rather have a red car in Inventory. I mean, Purple XK8s are rarer than Sapphire Blue or Silver ones and all
Bill
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
First, price. Folks, please don't take this as some kind of snobbery, it really isn't, but I would prefer not to name a price. I haven't begun to negotiate and there are many variables involved. However, let me say that the asking price is in line with the upper side of those mentioned above.
Mr. Shiftright, it is a GTS. the GTB is more affordable, and actually has cleaner lines but I love an open top. I spent the day blasting around town in my MR2 Spyder and just loved the feeling of top down driving. Since a 250 California Spyder is beyond my means and the Mondial doesn't excite me, the targa roof is the closest I'll get to an open Ferrari for a while.
Mr. Shiftright and Brentwoodvolvo, I know that everyone wants a red Ferrari. that includes the local police. Since one of my reasons for thinking about a newer car is to keep it longer, resale isn't a current consideration. So the sale ability of colour isn't as important a consideration. Besides, I have to live with it and frankly I think the car's lines work better on a dark car.
As a side note on colour, Mr. Shiftright. I saw a light green 308 GTS at the recent meet and it was beautiful. However, it looked an olive lost in a jar of pimentos.
Lastly, Andys120, I am aware of the cost of maintaining a Ferrari. My concerns are not maintenance but something unexpected that crops up from abuse (gearbox) or neglect (seals). I have a penchant for keeping cars properly maintained. Well, except my Jeep which I sometimes ignore. My wife claims I have a deathwish towards it.
I'll keep all informed as things progress. Thanks to everyone!
Tom
THen that is what Matters. My favorite colors? Blue and Grey. Again, I'm that Trade-In Value guy, so I get market pricing in my head. Buy what YOU like as it is YOUR car.
If you're in line with our guides, you're at a fair price I think if the car is nice. I would, as you and I both know what its' like to own these little buggers, have a pre-buy done if it were me. I did blow a tranny in my 348 I used to own, my checkbook didn;t find it too amusing.
So keep us posted, but go and have fun! The 328 is a GREAT car, you will love it!
Bill
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
But the QVs are also worth a bit more. But money VERY well spent.
Bill
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
As far as the carbs are concerned, the challenge lies in finding someone who can still set up and sync multiple carbs. Once I had mine set up properly, it was like driving a new car and the set up has lasted.
Of course, the real trick is get a good car to start with. The prices have put them in the range of too many people who can "buy it but not maintain it." There are, unfortunately, too many worn out cars on the market, more than there should be.
Tom
You can't even sell a post 1973 carb-ed Ferrari in California. Nobody will buy it.
I mean the one used to select reverse in cars equipped w the F1 "paddle shift".
It manages to be both too delicate and too industrial to look right in a Ferrari, IMO.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Bill
jumbo shrimp
military music
You don't buy an old exotic if you want an easy time of it, you buy a Camry.
Mechanicals all check out and we have agreed on a fair price. I have a interested buyer in the 308, so all is coming together. On Monday I will see all the paperwork but I am not expecting any surprises. Actually, I'm bringing the checkbook with me.
The 328 has the revised clutch linkage, so the clutch is easier to work. This is important since my wife, because of her back, could never drive the 308 due to the enormously heavy clutch. If I can figure out how, I will post a photo, assuming everything goes as expected.
Lambos. I was in a new Murcielago (sp?) over the weekend. Nice car but a little cramped if you're 6' 1" like me. However, bearing on the discussion, there was another in for it's 1500 mile check up. It had an electrical short which had taken out most of the system. the brand new one that I was in had a "clunk" which sounded and acted like a broken shock but the shocks were fine.
Countach owners have told me to expect to put in a clutch every 5000 Miles! I had one exowner tell me that a flatbed should be a standard accessory for a Countach. They sound like a bigger nightmare than my Lotuses were. Of course, I owned two of those, so how stupid am I? LOL.
My understanding is that because Lambo is so much smaller (poorer) than Ferrari, they can't devote the money to doing as much R&D as they should and actually do most of it on early production cars. Plunk down your $300K and be a test driver for Lambo!
Tom
Any big powerful car is going to be tough on clutches I think, but especially when driven by meatheads, which happens now and then as you know in the exotic car world.
I just got wind of a "68" Ferrari buried in a garage nearby. As the appraiser I cannot have a financial interest in the car but it will be interesting to see exactly what it is. Hopefully not a 2+2. Comes with another car, a '74 Rolls, which you can't give away, so maybe someone can buy the package of 2 at a good price. Sometimes you can sell old Rolls of that vintage to delirious wannabees who haven't a clue what they are in for. Ferrari maintenance would be like a Tercel compared to a tired 70s Rolls.
Maintinence costs are not bad, if you are used to running commercial, turbine-enined, passenger aircraft.
Made the Ferrari look like a Toyota Corolla in comparison. Clutches do go VERY quickly.
Bill
I might have waffled at the check signing.
Compared to, say, a used 348 at the time It wasn't too bad...
But yeah, I drive my exotics on a VERY regular basis so it was a mistake.
Bill
We've hemmed and hawed over keeping the 308 and to be honest it's still up in the air. However, we have several people interested and might be able to sell it at a profit, so it would be hard to justify keeping it. I l know it will be like a few other cars I've owned where a year from now I'll be saying "I should never have sold it!"
Anyway, wish us luck with the 328, as always. I'll keep everyone posted.
Tom
Great car and, well, I am partial to Grey myself
Use it in good health!
Bill
Ciao
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93