How can you compare an S-10 to a Ram? Get some apples to apples here.
Oh Viper...what are we going to do with you? Judging by your posts...you are in DEEP depression and having severe Silverado withdrawals. Too bad you have to suffer so much driving around in a Dodge. Just what DO you do with that Ram on the hood anyway? Perhaps you and Manlover (aka Trucklover) can get together and be "Rammers" as one?
Once Again...the Dodge Boys just keep falling down the ladder.....
Watch out....Toiletta is right behind you....Might pass ya up soon!
It's Obvious that you know Nothing about cars or Trucks at all. Are you Dumber than a Box of Rocks too?
Tim, When I get In on Monday's your stupid comments are all over this site. Do you even leave your house. How many miles do you have on the little girl.
You keep talking about going to your bars and seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on this site. Do you have a life, family, or do you just have your truck? Is that Why you are sooooo in love with your three door. Nobody to put in the back, because you are such a jerk?
Answer this one question and I will leave you alone. If CHEVY IS SOOOO GREAT AND SOOOO ADVANCED WHY ARE THEY THE LAST TO COME OUT WITH FOUR DOORS? Dodge did it way back in 97.
Stop avoiding the question with I don't cares, etc. Answer the darn question.
Also, someone mentioned rebates earlier. Go and look at any Ford f-150 stick these days they will have atleast 2k in factory off money, right on the sticker. I know because I almost purchased one with $3500 off in factory money right on the sticker. Ford was too ugly.
As for chevy, they are offering money back now and special financing. If that new truck was sooo great would they be offering this soooo soon. the first year. Wow.
This is the first year DOdge has offered an incentive on the Ram.
And as far as the numbers, maybe Dodge would rather make fewer better trucks as opposed to more lloouzzzy!!! trucks. (ie: ford and chevy.)
Richram 123, My dodge really is great!!!!!!!!! I have a 99 black 1500 quad sport 4x4. Drives great off road and wonderfully over 90 mph. Best Highay car I have ever driven. Very smooth and very little road or wind noise. I have put over 11k mile on it in three months. I love it. Braking is fine. Unless you are a Girly Man.
Last thing TIM, Why are you soooo obsessed with Dodge men? You keep harping on trying to make me a manlover, trying to make viper a little boy. What kind of bar do you go to anyway.
I know one of those bars where the men all wear black leather.......
I drive my truck plenty..about 100 miles a day. I Have access to a computer a few times a day...so I log on and piss you off. Sounds Fun..eh?
You will Leave ME alone...(sounds like you want out of here?)you are the one that can't take it..not me. I don't care How many doors it has... ..Oh I forgot...How many doors is the most important factor for reliability and ability...yeah right. What takes SOOOOO long? Perhaps a massive Strike and 80,000 back orders? Or maybe Chevy wants to make it the right way..strong and safe..unlike Dodge. I've already used my back seat very well... Oh yeah...They had tons of Incentives when I got mine...Zero rebates...No Lease Deals..and 8.5% financing. They were so overwelming..I took none of them.
Get real.
Any incentives they are offering are minimal and for smaller engines I'd imagine.
Your desperate attempt to turn this around was a massive Failure. The real contest will always be Ford and Chevy.
I'm happy you understand that you are Manlover and Viper is a little Boy (Your words).
Your weakness is showing big time in your last Post.
Demand is a indicator of quality....give me a break. I guess Mickey D's has the finest food. Timmy pooh I'm suprised you didn't have a come back for the leather bar thing? Now we know why you drive a girly chevy. Now we know the truck Equivalent of Twinky Winky.
Drip . . . Drip . . . . Drip - I hear Meredith getting the fire hose cranked up . . .
Madmack - Not trying to argue - just stating the principals of free market economies (I didn't invent it). Yep, there are a lot of better places to eat than McD's but in the .59 hamburger/fastfood/cheap kids-toy-in-the-bag arena they must know what they are doing - you have to look specifically at nearly identical competitive products for the sales #'s/quality-of-product formula to work - that is what the socialist capitalist bashers are always whining about; they don't have the competition (thanks to govn't policy) so they don't get it . . .
I don't know who make the "best" truck; Dodge probably makes the best 1-ton towing platform - GM or Ford the best 1/2-ton 2wd comfort/commuter truck - The sales #'s for each of these categories will be an indicator - the problem we have is that the 5th Avenue "spin-meisters" use the sales #'s in all sorts of creative ways to get the "Viper's" of this world confused.
In all fairness to Dodge, I'd like to see the #'s for just the "New Dodge" (post '94 ?) after a few buying cycles (trucks are "durable goods" - buyers need the time to come into the market and make their choice) have elapsed. I bet Dodge makes a good showing.
Just be thankful we have 3 strong competitors in the market - If we lived in China we would only have a choice between the "red" one or the "other red" one . . .
I am not necessarily loyal to Chevy trucks. But with the redesign in 1999, Chevy became the best designed truck. Until Dodge brings out a new model, it will only be considered because of price, and yahoos who think it would be great to drive 100mph and crush cars. If your life's goal was to have a vehicle that goes faster than your IQ - congratulations. Oh, sorry I'll type slower - so you can read this. If Dodge was making such a good product their sales would skyrocket and new plants would be opening all the time. I think Chrysler Corp. has pushed junk on people especially during the 70's and 80's, and now those people say "never again".
Spirited debate is fine. Gratuitous insults are not. I will remind you of your Participants Agreement which may be accessed on the upper left of this page.
Edmunds' goal is to be a site that will NOT automatically be deselected by Cyber Patrol or Net Nanny or software of that ilk.
We are a family site. Knock off the name calling!
Front Porch Philosopher SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
tp4unc Toyota doesn't even make a full size truck. They make an over priced baby sized yuppie mobil that has god awful styling and boring poorly layout interior. A major dissappointment to an old toyota fan.
viperg I love my dodge truck, but let's get real here about the ramcharger. I owned a '78 with a 360. I can't remember if it had a good point.
trucklover That truck can do 90 or a 100 but your nuts if you think you can stop in a reasonable distance. It doesn't matter what brand you are dealing with over 5,000 pounds. Don't do this on roads where other people drive.
trucklover Dodge came out with the quad cab in '98 not '97. I know this because I waited a full year just to get this option.
tim Those excuses that you list for chevy are REAL lame. Way below your standards. Be a man and admit that they blew it,missed the boat. Just like windstar did on the first year of thier redesign.
Yuppie-mobile, Is that better? Boring, poorly layed out interior refers to the yawn school of design incorperated in the dash (reminds me of my '84 toyota pickup) and that rediculous back seat. I would only wish sitting back there on an enemy. Try it, I have. As far as being disappointed, I realy thought toyota was capable of comming up with a real truck instead of another T100 bomb. This is a mid size truck at best that is geared its selling to the guy/gal that wants a truck to move a flat of flowers from the nursury home twice a year and don't want to get the carpet dirty in thier SUV.
It breaks my heart that some "silly" dweeb does not respect me because of my poor paint quality however mr."truckhumper", I do have a rhino liner that protects the bed fine but you should'nt be able to spit and knock off paint which is what essentially happened when i used expensive braided rope on the bed rail knockouts, so don't be so critical and get a life! I've had many trucks and have'nt had any experience like this.
Good point....however demand "can" be a strong indicator of quality, not "is". I would like to see a breakdown by state of the big three. I (Honestly) have been looking at as many new trucks as I can find in my area. I have counted(in the last two weeks) a ratio of 2.5 fords/2 Dodges/ 1chevy. I'm curious to the regional distribution of the vehicles and relationship to the local setting. Even though I would not imply it as an indicator of quality. I would not and do not assume that the market is an educated one. Quality and quantity usually have a relationship in mass production. One goes up the other goes down. Speak to any Japanese business man. One last poke.. Thigh Master popular for about the last ten years. Millions sold...cost the same as other equipment (that actually works).
I have been an engineer for 15 years working in factories. Quality comes from a mix of starting with quality materials/suppliers, a simple design, a quality assurance department that demands the processes run in statistical control, and a high enough production level to provide decent assembly equipment (for example a gage that can read to 0.0001" and not just 0.001") In the auto industry 2 of the highest quality cars are what? The Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry? Look where they are every year in sales. (I have no desire for either one).
My first truck - a '77 Ford F-150 (2 blown 351s - poor steering). Then had a '73 Bronco (funnest - good 302 - worst steering). Drove a Mitsubishi pickup (most boring - most dependable) in college. Then a '89 Dodge Cummins (powerful brute - roughest riding - awful brakes). Now I have a '97 318hp Dakota (good truck - a little small - poor mileage - NO PROBLEMS). Dad has the '97 Cummins Club (best truck - great ride -incredible power- NO PROBLEMS).
Now, I thought I wanted the '99 GMC Sierra because of all the new Silverado/Sierra advances (engine, interior, frame & suspension). I wanted the Sierra because GMC was at least willing to impart SOME styling. However, I have seen three friends get new GM pickup products in the last couple of years (including one '99 model) and they have resulted in a long list of problems:
Two replaced transmissions (by 15,000 miles on '97 & '98) Brake & ABS problems off-road Broken cheap interior paneling Windshield making weird noises at certain speeds Rattles everywhere Clunking transmission (by 5,000 miles on the '99). . . All of these problems within the first 15,000 miles for each truck.
Now, there is no such thing as a good service department at a dealership, and from what I have seen, you're better off paying a real mechanic than taking your truck to the dealership 15 times to get it right, even if it is under warranty.
Moral of the story . . . US manufacturers are inconsistent - especially on first model year products. Toyota might have been bitten by the bug also considering recent satisfaction with the Tacoma.
Will I still get a new Sierra? Maybe, their product is still probably the best 1/2-ton offering (I'm guessing more dependable in 2000). But I like the Dodge for a bigger, tougher, more powerful truck for camper/trailer rigs. Maybe Ford will be best next year, I don't care.
the first reasonable post yet. Black 99 RAM sport Quad 4x4 great truck no porblems. 13k miles, brakes = ok.
Have any of you seen that armoral commercial were the big Beautiful Black Dodge come rolling down the street out of the fog? I wonder why they chose a Dodge ram for thet commercial? HMMMM! Because it is beautiful!!!!
I would guess the incentives and rebates offered on that Dodge enabled them to obtain one for peanuts(If anything). Heck, Dodge probably begged them to use it.
Before any of you quick people jump on me, it was late last night, I realize my truck does not have 318 horse power, although that 5.2 liter small block is a good powerful engine (good torque). I've always liked small blocks. Ford 302 - great engine. Ford 351 - garbage. When I need more power and want to make sure I can get back from a hunting trip without breaking down, towing my two ATVs across Oregon, I will get a diesel. Did someone say something about Ford or Chevy offering the Isuzu diesel in the future? That's a great engine.
Thought I'd answer my own question. I just found out it's GM. It will be interesting how much of a premium cost the Isuzu diesel will be on the truck platform for GM trucks.
OK, I have tried to stay out of this debate, but enough is enough. Things have gotten a lot better in the last couple of days, and now there is real information sharing again - can we all agree on that. Many of us have strong opinions on what we prefer, few of us are going to be convinced by the arguments of others.
BUT - there are a lot of users of this site who don't know what they want. Those of us who know a little about the sunject - and yes a lot of you who know a huge amount, provide a useful service to people who think they want a truck but not sure which. Lets try and appeal to them and learn from their experiences, not send them away thinking we are all a bunch of screaming kids.
OK lecture over, and I didn't once mention my preference. Sorry if it sounds like I am moralising, but there was a time when every user knew nothing about trucks, and lets be honest every truck has some compromises in it - after all they have to appeal to the masses.
That was my point, lets try and get away from the Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge debate, "just because that's what I have always driven". It seems to me that whatever company is most hungry is going to make the best product. For ages, Ford and Chevy dominated. Dodge got hungry and revolutionized trucks in 1994. Ford and Chevy felt the pressure, got hungry, and you can see the improvement in their new models. Now the refinement and dependability is the question.
My boss got a '99 GMC Sierra 1/2-ton after I, his mechanic, and some others suggested it to him (he previously had a mid-80's vintage Landcruiser - great truck, but guttless. I have listened to him [non-permissible content removed] about all the nuisance problems ever since he picked it was delivered - windshield, brakes, broken interior paneling, clunking transmission, etc. I've been looking at all the posts and it looks like these are more universal than the problems on the Dodge. It's frustrating to see such a good design so poorly put together. Especially when I want to upgrade to the Sierra from my Dakota sometime.
By the way it seems ridiculous to defend GM for not starting out with 4 doors. I heard the same arguments 10 years ago about club cabs ("if i need to have passengers, I'll drive a car", or "its no good for offroad"), ignoring the convenience. Now that you rarely see a standard cab, some people are saying they don't care about doors. Obviously, the 4th door makes the cab more convenient. (by the way, I have not heard of any frame problems on Ford or Dodge with the 4th door) Therefore, GM either just completely blew it, or they assume people will buy the truck without the 4th door (just because its new and is otherwise a good design) and they can save the extra cost as profit. That's one of the reasons I have waited to buy one, along with the assumption that they were going to have problems in their first model year, which there certainly are.
Hey... I'm back... Tim, you seem to have caught a little flack, but hey its fun. Glad your truck is tight. About the drop-in liners, they keep things up out of water, which the spray-in don't. Have seen a couple of spay-ins less than a year old, and they are changing color from water spotting apparently.
Viper1 How do you get your 98 to go over 100mph? The computer limits them to 100mph since 97, I've been told. My 95 would go over 100, but the 99 will only go 100mph.
I also have a hood ornament, its a Silverado! Looks good up there too.
I have a couple of friends who had Blazers, and had ridden/driven Ramchargers also. They liked the Ramcharger for its tight, quite ride, but they had no power (throttle body injected). But allass, that is all in the past.
The GM auto trans, is a good design, many problems are due to bad connections for the trans control. Some service departemts are not willing to look too hard to find the problem. If the computer doesn't have a fault code, then there is nothing wrong.
Tim Dang you, I looked at our Dodge, and it does look a little funny being up in the air. The tires do look small, but they are really far from small.
Some time ago, someone asked what we liked or disliked about our trucks. I guess I would have to say that getting in and out of the truck is harder than a Ford or Chevy, and opening the rear windows is quite a reach from the front. Had a power rear window put in because there is NO WAY you can open or close the rear window from the front of a Quad Cab.
Allot of people are waiting for the New Diesel for Chevy to come out, but this is going to be a NEW Common fuel rail engine. I'm not real sure what they mean, but apparently, this will not have a distributor type injector pump, but control the injectors manually. Hope this in not going to be another PoweStroke thing. Lots of hype and not much improvement.
Our Dodge is doing fine, 16 in the city, over 23 hiway empty. But, hey its a diesel. Later, wildman
Wildman, when you say common fuel rail engine, what exactly does that mean? Is it a standard V-8 or something converted to use diesel like the old GM diesel junk (ie. pickup, oldsmobile, etc.)? Diesels are meant to be strait-6.
I can't find the info now but the new Isuzu diesel is going to be all new, in a V-8 configuration. The engine has changed about 3 times now, but apparently has settled as a V-8. Common rail injection exposes all the injectors to pressure all the time, much like a multi-port gas fuel injection. This engine is suppose to be quite, fuel efficent, and environmentialy friendly. GMC already has a Isuzu engine in the T-Series medium duty tilt cab trucks. This is the Duramax 7800 in-line six, 7.8L There are 2 versions, a 200 hp and a 230 hp with 441 ft-lb and 517 ft-lb of torque. Both are inter-cooled, turbocharged engines, comparable to the 5.9L Cummins. Not all diesels are in-lines, there quite a few in the V configuration and work great. CAT for example. wildman
Thanks for all the info. I know the guys driving the tow trucks and other industrial trucks with the Isuzu diesels love 'em. Hopefully GM can give Dodge & Ford a little competition in the Diesel market. I wouldn't mind seeing the premium for diesel engines dropping a little, too, if they became competitive. I'm probably dreaming.
I was watching Motor Week TV yesterday and they had a segment where they listed the best used truck to buy. There was no distinction between sizes. Guess what truck they picked.
Well.... They picked the best truck on the Market the.................DODGE RAM!!!!!!!94-99
They stated that the RAM was very reliable, powerful, fun to drive, great off road, and an overall good purchase.
They also listed the used prices and they were high. So, they were not saying that it was the best because their resale was cheap.
They were saying that out of all the p/ups out there that DODGE RAM was the one to buy. NOT Ford, chevy, or even toyota. JUST DODGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
That along with auotweeks consumer best value award puts the DODGE RAM right up their regardless of sales. When you have Quality, Quantity will soon follow.
In advertently Tim may have hit on something here. Ford and Chevy have had good times because historically they have had good times 'the my Pop had a Ford in '38 and that was the best damn truck ever so I've driven Fords ever since' mentality.
Dodge hasn't had that - with the notable exception of the Power Wagon. What Dodge does have is a lot of first time, younger truckers - undoubtedly the aggressive styling has something to do with that.
There is a school of thought that the recent SUV explosion has come about because people have started to rebel against the vehicles that their parents drove - parents drove cars so they drive SUVs. Now pick ups are a slightly different story because they are often required transport rather than choice transport. But recently the same thing has started to happen - parents drove Ford / Chevy, they drive Dodge.
It is happening - just look at the postings around here - 'I have always driven Ford and I love the F150', 'I have driven Chevy since I was 2'. Compare that with the postings from people like me who have no history with any of them (Europe born and raised), looked at a truck from a purely objective viewpoint - and bought Dodge.
My Pop Drove a Lot of GM's....Dodge for Work Vans...A few Chryslers...some Olds and Pontiacs...Now Drives Dodge Minivans..and His latest car is a Continental...and Work Truck has gone to a Ford Cube Van..
....I get it!
...THAT'S why I buy Chevrolet!!...cause DAD bought the whole spectrum!...
Get real
I've owned Olds/Pontiac/..but Most have been Chevrloet
The whole idea of Pop bought it....so will I..is kinda a lame theory.
He does still have a Chevy though.....Must be a connection somehow!!
All my cars have been GM. I like their products. I have been switched to trucks in recent years...and since I like GM....I have 2 choices. And seeing how I don't like GMC looks...It's Chevrolet for me! When I compare the whole spectrum for looks and reliability for the past several decades (no...decades is not 1994-1999 manlover)Chevrolet happens to also be the choice for me.
Some people may come from a "Ford Family" so to speak....but for me it's just what I wanted.
Tim, I am not suggesting that the theory applies on an individual basis - but across the board over the 100s of millions of North American drivers it has been a marked trend.
Also, from an individual perspective we are all biased by our own experiences. When I was looking for my truck the first dealer I went to was hugely rude. He was one person, maybe having a bad day, but he has driven me away from that dealership for life. The same is true of many things, whether it be a restaurant or a truck. Views become stronger on trucks because there are fewer truck manufacturers than restaurants and the purchase costs a whole lot more.
If you spend $30,000 on something that turns out to be a pile of whatsit you are going to be one peeved hombre, regardless of whether it is Ford, Dodge or Chevrolet (or Chevrloet for that matter). It is bound to make you less likely to but the make again, in the same way as a truck that went 200,000 miles without so much as an oil change is going to make you think all trucks from that make are the same. Illogical, yes, Happens, yes (but remember we are talking statistically here about the 100s of millions, not just you or me).
Besides Tim, just admit it, Dodge rules - tee hee.
It's like Andy said, the "it's what pop drove" mentality is very real, but it does not apply to all individuals (certainly not you). But I do a lot of work with farmers and I typically see their entire fleet a specific brand (until recently, Ford or Chevy). Then, when you stumble across their junk area, you will see plenty of the same label on grills, tailgates, etc. Obviously, the generational farmer has continued buying what dad did. I would think even you could admit that during the 50-75 years of farming and truck buying in that family, Chevy did not build the best truck every year, neither did Ford. I am seeing many more farms in more recent years where the entire fleet is Dodge (mostly Cummins), however. I always ask farmers and ranchers how they like their trucks. Usually Ford and Chevy guys say they like their trucks. Dodge (Cummins) guys generally rave about them. Kind of funny, you don't see many Dodge badges in their junk piles. Maybe America is getting smarter -- buy the best truck, no matter what brand it is.
Before you say farmers make up a very small part of the population, I see plenty other people with the same attitude, farmers were just the first example that came to mind.
they did decades ago. Decades ago toyota and Honda sucked and they rusted to the ground. Only... what... about 15yrs ago.
So I guess because they sucked a decade and a half ago I should not buy a Honda ... Acura or Toyota... or a lexus.... piss poor logic.
Audi dam near went out of business a couple of year ago but their A8 is demanding over 60k now.
What is more of the issue to me is what they do NOW! If you look a toyota it took several years for them to gain loyalty and become the leader.
Well, give Dodge a minute or to and you will see a change.
Loyalty is hard to overcome and takes time.
Tim if you really want to measure a companies reliability you should be looking at 94-99 not 70-93. What they did in 1970 or 80 has nothing to do with 99.
Without a doubt...The pop bought it theory does exist...especially in Farmers..I can vouch for that. Yes..there never does seem to be any Dodges in their collection. Hell....All the Farmers I know never even sell!....They just keep them all going and going....some eventually become part of the scrap heap.
I know familys that swear by one brand...Like it's a Religion or something. Some go as farr to say..Only Cocacola in this House...No pepsi!..
get a life
I understand some people DO buy that way....but overall...I think it is NOT the majority. You don't see any Dodge familys like that...cuz they never made anything in past decades worth a Damn.
What someone did in the 70's and 80's has nothing to do with Now??.....I think not sonny boy. The longer you can go back...the better picture you have for determining Reliability. All brands have good and bad periods...only comparing short periods...could mean one or the other is on their Bad period...which makes it not accurate.
But...Let's compare 94-99....Ooops!..Dodge still Loses!...Funny How Dodge owners can only talk from 1994 on...and say that up until 1993 doesn't matter....Now why would that be??
If the Pop bought it does turn out to be the majority....well then I guess those people will always buy that way.....and Dodge will still never be Number 1.
I think our point has been that we (at least some of us) are joining this forum to decide what truck is going to be a better buy in 2000. We are trying to filter through people's byass to see what real information they have to share.
Now you have admitted that ALL of your vehicles are GM (and they have been so for some time, isn't that right?). You rip Dodge for what? They sell less than Chevy? They have a LOWER resale than Chevy? Do they have a lower innitial quality rating than Chevy? I know you think the Chevy looks better. You could probably say Dodge made inferior trucks in the '70s and '80s (except for the introduction of Cummins). But really, you seem an awful lot like a "Chevy Guy" to me. The "Chevy Guys" I know will never give Ford or Dodge credit for squat. Likewise, their Chevy's clunking transmission must be like music to thier ears, and their recalls must allow them the enjoyment of visiting their good-buddy dealer. (the same could be said of true "Ford Guys", or even "Dodge Guys").
I really don't care if you buy Chevy trucks for the rest of your life. You will be the one missing some good Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, etc. It is just hard for the rest of us to get some good unbiased information from "Chevy Guys" about the new GM pickups (which appears to be a great design with 1st model year problems that will hopefully be fixed). I am just trying to balance the good and bad from all the trucks.
And as far as your long-term quality argument in favor of GM, I don't think any of the rest of us associate high quality, innovation, performance or dependability with GM since the '60s (my dad sure liked his mid-'60s Olds and early '60s 'Vette). I personally see over 30 years of mediocrity. For a company that has resources that dwarf Ford and Dodge, I expect a lot better than what I have seen in their pickups (forced to innovate by other trucks), the anemic Corvette (inferior to the Viper and even Honda (NSX), and the second-rate luxury sedans from Cadillac. I'll never understand why GM has about 50 divisions that basically offer the same quality. What ever happened to 1-Cadillac, 2-Buick, 3-Oldsmobile, Chevy/Pontiac.
Now, the new Silverado/Sierra shows me some promise, but I have certainly seen better dependability and innitial quality from Dodge with my dad and my Dodge trucks than my friends and boss have had with their new GM trucks.
Have a good weekend, I'm taking my truck camping, Greg
I have given Dodge and Ford plenty of Credit where it is due. Dodge has come a long way in recent years...it's still not good enough...but a long way. I see much more than Just Chevrolet.
As I told all the others....I state the facts.
But why waste my time here...as I've done in the past.
By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our Visitor Agreement.
Comments
How can you compare an S-10 to a Ram? Get some apples to apples here.
Oh Viper...what are we going to do with you?
Judging by your posts...you are in DEEP depression and having severe Silverado withdrawals. Too bad you have to suffer so much driving around in a Dodge.
Just what DO you do with that Ram on the hood anyway?
Perhaps you and Manlover (aka Trucklover) can get together and be "Rammers" as one?
Once Again...the Dodge Boys just keep falling down the ladder.....
Watch out....Toiletta is right behind you....Might pass ya up soon!
It's Obvious that you know Nothing about cars or Trucks at all. Are you Dumber than a Box of Rocks too?
I'm getting to you too.....BIG time...oh yeahhhh.
- Tim
Smart Choice..stay with GM.
Viper,
Awesome Comeback!
I'm quaking now!
...oh..and when YOU read the fine print...The Longest lasting truck Data is from 1981-1998..as stated in the Chevy Brochure.
Once again I state the real facts while the Rammers just mumble a bunch of...well..who knows what it really is?
Ram away Boys.
- Tim
Oh yeah..and when I say Blazer...I mean the REAL blazer...before it was called Tahoe..not todays little S-10 Size Blazer..
Let's compare a 2000 tahoe to a 2000 Ramcharger
...DOHHH!!
how about a 1999...DOHHH!
98??..DOHH!
97..DOH!
96??..DOHH!
95?..DOH!
..etc..
...You kill me boss....
You and manlover make good Bar conversation though...Always good for a laugh..Give me some more material for next Friday...You guys are a big hit!
- Tim
When I get In on Monday's your stupid comments are all over this site. Do you even leave your house. How many miles do you have on the little girl.
You keep talking about going to your bars and seem to spend a hell of a lot of time on this site. Do you have a life, family, or do you just have your truck? Is that Why you are sooooo in love with your three door. Nobody to put in the back, because you are such a jerk?
Answer this one question and I will leave you alone. If CHEVY IS SOOOO GREAT AND SOOOO ADVANCED WHY ARE THEY THE LAST TO COME OUT WITH FOUR DOORS? Dodge did it way back in 97.
Stop avoiding the question with I don't cares, etc. Answer the darn question.
Also, someone mentioned rebates earlier. Go and look at any Ford f-150 stick these days they will have atleast 2k in factory off money, right on the sticker. I know because I almost purchased one with $3500 off in factory money right on the sticker. Ford was too ugly.
As for chevy, they are offering money back now and special financing. If that new truck was sooo great would they be offering this soooo soon. the first year. Wow.
This is the first year DOdge has offered an incentive on the Ram.
And as far as the numbers, maybe Dodge would rather make fewer better trucks as opposed to more lloouzzzy!!! trucks. (ie: ford and chevy.)
Richram 123,
My dodge really is great!!!!!!!!! I have a 99 black 1500 quad sport 4x4. Drives great off road and wonderfully over 90 mph. Best Highay car I have ever driven. Very smooth and very little road or wind noise. I have put over 11k mile on it in three months. I love it. Braking is fine. Unless you are a Girly Man.
Last thing TIM,
Why are you soooo obsessed with Dodge men? You keep harping on trying to make me a manlover, trying to make viper a little boy. What kind of bar do you go to anyway.
I know one of those bars where the men all wear black leather.......
I drive my truck plenty..about 100 miles a day. I Have access to a computer a few times a day...so I log on and piss you off. Sounds Fun..eh?
You will Leave ME alone...(sounds like you want out of here?)you are the one that can't take it..not me. I don't care How many doors it has...
..Oh I forgot...How many doors is the most important factor for reliability and ability...yeah right.
What takes SOOOOO long? Perhaps a massive Strike and 80,000 back orders? Or maybe Chevy wants to make it the right way..strong and safe..unlike Dodge.
I've already used my back seat very well...
Oh yeah...They had tons of Incentives when I got mine...Zero rebates...No Lease Deals..and 8.5% financing. They were so overwelming..I took none of them.
Get real.
Any incentives they are offering are minimal and for smaller engines I'd imagine.
Your desperate attempt to turn this around was a massive Failure.
The real contest will always be Ford and Chevy.
I'm happy you understand that you are Manlover and Viper is a little Boy (Your words).
Your weakness is showing big time in your last Post.
You lose...Like all Dodges
...Ohh yeah....Getting to you BIG time.
Gotta love it.
- Defending My Belief (and stating the facts) Tim
Manlover Can't take it....
Nah NahNah Nah Nah
..Just think...all this entertainment is FREE!
Nah NahNah Nah Nah
..We know Timmy Pooh can take it.
The censors will assume control.
I hear Meredith getting the fire hose cranked up . . .
Madmack - Not trying to argue - just stating the principals of free market economies (I didn't invent it). Yep, there are a lot of better places to eat than McD's but in the .59 hamburger/fastfood/cheap kids-toy-in-the-bag arena they must know what they are doing - you have to look specifically at nearly identical competitive products for the sales #'s/quality-of-product formula to work - that is what the socialist capitalist bashers are always whining about; they don't have the competition (thanks to govn't policy) so they don't get it . . .
I don't know who make the "best" truck; Dodge probably makes the best 1-ton towing platform - GM or Ford the best 1/2-ton 2wd comfort/commuter truck - The sales #'s for each of these categories will be an indicator - the problem we have is that the 5th Avenue "spin-meisters" use the sales #'s in all sorts of creative ways to get the "Viper's" of this world confused.
In all fairness to Dodge, I'd like to see the #'s for just the "New Dodge" (post '94 ?) after a few buying cycles (trucks are "durable goods" - buyers need the time to come into the market and make their choice) have elapsed. I bet Dodge makes a good showing.
Just be thankful we have 3 strong competitors in the market - If we lived in China we would only have a choice between the "red" one or the "other red" one . . .
http://www.unimogusa.com/products.html
If Dodge was making such a good product their sales would skyrocket and new plants would be opening all the time. I think Chrysler Corp. has pushed junk on people especially during the 70's and 80's, and now those people say "never again".
Spirited debate is fine. Gratuitous insults are not. I will remind you of your Participants Agreement which may be accessed on the upper left of this page.
Edmunds' goal is to be a site that will NOT automatically be deselected by Cyber Patrol or Net Nanny or software of that ilk.
We are a family site. Knock off the name calling!
Front Porch Philosopher
SUV, Pickups, & Aftermarket and Accessories Host
viperg I love my dodge truck, but let's get real here about the ramcharger. I owned a '78 with a 360. I can't remember if it had a good point.
trucklover That truck can do 90 or a 100 but your nuts if you think you can stop in a reasonable distance. It doesn't matter what brand you are dealing with over 5,000 pounds. Don't do this on roads where other people drive.
trucklover Dodge came out with the quad cab in '98 not '97. I know this because I waited a full year just to get this option.
tim Those excuses that you list for chevy are REAL lame. Way below your standards. Be a man and admit that they blew it,missed the boat. Just like windstar did on the first year of thier redesign.
Two legs, both operated on, now I'm back.
What excuses? I really don't care about doors. Honest.
We lost a whole lotta posts this time..
Manlover loses....once more.
See Ya!
- Tim
Quality and quantity usually have a relationship in mass production. One goes up the other goes down. Speak to any Japanese business man.
One last poke.. Thigh Master popular for about the last ten years. Millions sold...cost the same as other equipment (that actually works).
In the auto industry 2 of the highest quality cars are what? The Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry? Look where they are every year in sales. (I have no desire for either one).
This topic needs to die this is getting old.
Now, I thought I wanted the '99 GMC Sierra because of all the new Silverado/Sierra advances (engine, interior, frame & suspension). I wanted the Sierra because GMC was at least willing to impart SOME styling. However, I have seen three friends get new GM pickup products in the last couple of years (including one '99 model) and they have resulted in a long list of problems:
Two replaced transmissions (by 15,000 miles on '97 & '98)
Brake & ABS problems off-road
Broken cheap interior paneling
Windshield making weird noises at certain speeds Rattles everywhere
Clunking transmission (by 5,000 miles on the '99).
. . All of these problems within the first 15,000 miles for each truck.
Now, there is no such thing as a good service department at a dealership, and from what I have seen, you're better off paying a real mechanic than taking your truck to the dealership 15 times to get it right, even if it is under warranty.
Moral of the story . . . US manufacturers are inconsistent - especially on first model year products. Toyota might have been bitten by the bug also considering recent satisfaction with the Tacoma.
Will I still get a new Sierra? Maybe, their product is still probably the best 1/2-ton offering (I'm guessing more dependable in 2000). But I like the Dodge for a bigger, tougher, more powerful truck for camper/trailer rigs. Maybe Ford will be best next year, I don't care.
Greg
Have any of you seen that armoral commercial were the big Beautiful Black Dodge come rolling down the street out of the fog? I wonder why they chose a Dodge ram for thet commercial? HMMMM! Because it is beautiful!!!!
BUT - there are a lot of users of this site who don't know what they want. Those of us who know a little about the sunject - and yes a lot of you who know a huge amount, provide a useful service to people who think they want a truck but not sure which. Lets try and appeal to them and learn from their experiences, not send them away thinking we are all a bunch of screaming kids.
OK lecture over, and I didn't once mention my preference. Sorry if it sounds like I am moralising, but there was a time when every user knew nothing about trucks, and lets be honest every truck has some compromises in it - after all they have to appeal to the masses.
My boss got a '99 GMC Sierra 1/2-ton after I, his mechanic, and some others suggested it to him (he previously had a mid-80's vintage Landcruiser - great truck, but guttless. I have listened to him [non-permissible content removed] about all the nuisance problems ever since he picked it was delivered - windshield, brakes, broken interior paneling, clunking transmission, etc. I've been looking at all the posts and it looks like these are more universal than the problems on the Dodge. It's frustrating to see such a good design so poorly put together. Especially when I want to upgrade to the Sierra from my Dakota sometime.
By the way it seems ridiculous to defend GM for not starting out with 4 doors. I heard the same arguments 10 years ago about club cabs ("if i need to have passengers, I'll drive a car", or "its no good for offroad"), ignoring the convenience. Now that you rarely see a standard cab, some people are saying they don't care about doors. Obviously, the 4th door makes the cab more convenient. (by the way, I have not heard of any frame problems on Ford or Dodge with the 4th door) Therefore, GM either just completely blew it, or they assume people will buy the truck without the 4th door (just because its new and is otherwise a good design) and they can save the extra cost as profit. That's one of the reasons I have waited to buy one, along with the assumption that they were going to have problems in their first model year, which there certainly are.
Tim, you seem to have caught a little flack, but hey its fun. Glad your truck is tight.
About the drop-in liners, they keep things up out of water, which the spray-in don't. Have seen a couple of spay-ins less than a year old, and they are changing color from water spotting apparently.
Viper1
How do you get your 98 to go over 100mph? The computer limits them to 100mph since 97, I've been told. My 95 would go over 100, but the 99 will only go 100mph.
I also have a hood ornament, its a Silverado! Looks good up there too.
I have a couple of friends who had Blazers, and had ridden/driven Ramchargers also. They liked the Ramcharger for its tight, quite ride, but they had no power (throttle body injected). But allass, that is all in the past.
The GM auto trans, is a good design, many problems are due to bad connections for the trans control. Some service departemts are not willing to look too hard to find the problem. If the computer doesn't have a fault code, then there is nothing wrong.
Tim
Dang you, I looked at our Dodge, and it does look a little funny being up in the air. The tires do look small, but they are really far from small.
Some time ago, someone asked what we liked or disliked about our trucks. I guess I would have to say that getting in and out of the truck is harder than a Ford or Chevy, and opening the rear windows is quite a reach from the front. Had a power rear window put in because there is NO WAY you can open or close the rear window from the front of a Quad Cab.
Allot of people are waiting for the New Diesel for Chevy to come out, but this is going to be a NEW Common fuel rail engine. I'm not real sure what they mean, but apparently, this will not have a distributor type injector pump, but control the injectors manually. Hope this in not going to be another PoweStroke thing. Lots of hype and not much improvement.
Our Dodge is doing fine, 16 in the city, over 23 hiway empty. But, hey its a diesel.
Later,
wildman
GMC already has a Isuzu engine in the T-Series medium duty tilt cab trucks. This is the Duramax 7800 in-line six, 7.8L There are 2 versions, a 200 hp and a 230 hp with 441 ft-lb and 517 ft-lb of torque. Both are inter-cooled, turbocharged engines, comparable to the 5.9L Cummins. Not all diesels are in-lines, there quite a few in the V configuration and work great. CAT for example.
wildman
wildman
Well.... They picked the best truck on the Market the.................DODGE RAM!!!!!!!94-99
They stated that the RAM was very reliable, powerful, fun to drive, great off road, and an overall good purchase.
They also listed the used prices and they were high. So, they were not saying that it was the best because their resale was cheap.
They were saying that out of all the p/ups out there that DODGE RAM was the one to buy. NOT Ford, chevy, or even toyota. JUST DODGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
That along with auotweeks consumer best value award puts the DODGE RAM right up their regardless of sales. When you have Quality, Quantity will soon follow.
...or EVER...for that matter...
- Tim
..(What were they smokin'?....I sure would like some!)
Dodge hasn't had that - with the notable exception of the Power Wagon. What Dodge does have is a lot of first time, younger truckers - undoubtedly the aggressive styling has something to do with that.
There is a school of thought that the recent SUV explosion has come about because people have started to rebel against the vehicles that their parents drove - parents drove cars so they drive SUVs. Now pick ups are a slightly different story because they are often required transport rather than choice transport. But recently the same thing has started to happen - parents drove Ford / Chevy, they drive Dodge.
It is happening - just look at the postings around here - 'I have always driven Ford and I love the F150', 'I have driven Chevy since I was 2'. Compare that with the postings from people like me who have no history with any of them (Europe born and raised), looked at a truck from a purely objective viewpoint - and bought Dodge.
....I get it!
...THAT'S why I buy Chevrolet!!...cause DAD bought the whole spectrum!...
Get real
I've owned Olds/Pontiac/..but Most have been Chevrloet
The whole idea of Pop bought it....so will I..is kinda a lame theory.
- Tim
hehehhe
All my cars have been GM. I like their products. I have been switched to trucks in recent years...and since I like GM....I have 2 choices. And seeing how I don't like GMC looks...It's Chevrolet for me!
When I compare the whole spectrum for looks and reliability for the past several decades (no...decades is not 1994-1999 manlover)Chevrolet happens to also be the choice for me.
Some people may come from a "Ford Family" so to speak....but for me it's just what I wanted.
You know...My choice...in this Land of The Free?
- Tim
Also, from an individual perspective we are all biased by our own experiences. When I was looking for my truck the first dealer I went to was hugely rude. He was one person, maybe having a bad day, but he has driven me away from that dealership for life. The same is true of many things, whether it be a restaurant or a truck. Views become stronger on trucks because there are fewer truck manufacturers than restaurants and the purchase costs a whole lot more.
If you spend $30,000 on something that turns out to be a pile of whatsit you are going to be one peeved hombre, regardless of whether it is Ford, Dodge or Chevrolet (or Chevrloet for that matter).
It is bound to make you less likely to but the make again, in the same way as a truck that went 200,000 miles without so much as an oil change is going to make you think all trucks from that make are the same. Illogical, yes, Happens, yes (but remember we are talking statistically here about the 100s of millions, not just you or me).
Besides Tim, just admit it, Dodge rules - tee hee.
It's like Andy said, the "it's what pop drove" mentality is very real, but it does not apply to all individuals (certainly not you). But I do a lot of work with farmers and I typically see their entire fleet a specific brand (until recently, Ford or Chevy). Then, when you stumble across their junk area, you will see plenty of the same label on grills, tailgates, etc. Obviously, the generational farmer has continued buying what dad did. I would think even you could admit that during the 50-75 years of farming and truck buying in that family, Chevy did not build the best truck every year, neither did Ford. I am seeing many more farms in more recent years where the entire fleet is Dodge (mostly Cummins), however. I always ask farmers and ranchers how they like their trucks. Usually Ford and Chevy guys say they like their trucks. Dodge (Cummins) guys generally rave about them. Kind of funny, you don't see many Dodge badges in their junk piles. Maybe America is getting smarter -- buy the best truck, no matter what brand it is.
Greg
So I guess because they sucked a decade and a half ago I should not buy a Honda ... Acura or Toyota... or a lexus.... piss poor logic.
Audi dam near went out of business a couple of year ago but their A8 is demanding over 60k now.
What is more of the issue to me is what they do NOW! If you look a toyota it took several years for them to gain loyalty and become the leader.
Well, give Dodge a minute or to and you will see a change.
Loyalty is hard to overcome and takes time.
Tim if you really want to measure a companies reliability you should be looking at 94-99 not
70-93. What they did in 1970 or 80 has nothing to do with 99.
Change is good Timmy... CHANGE is good!
I know familys that swear by one brand...Like it's a Religion or something. Some go as farr to say..Only Cocacola in this House...No pepsi!..
get a life
I understand some people DO buy that way....but overall...I think it is NOT the majority. You don't see any Dodge familys like that...cuz they never made anything in past decades worth a Damn.
What someone did in the 70's and 80's has nothing to do with Now??.....I think not sonny boy.
The longer you can go back...the better picture you have for determining Reliability. All brands have good and bad periods...only comparing short periods...could mean one or the other is on their Bad period...which makes it not accurate.
But...Let's compare 94-99....Ooops!..Dodge still Loses!...Funny How Dodge owners can only talk from 1994 on...and say that up until 1993 doesn't matter....Now why would that be??
If the Pop bought it does turn out to be the majority....well then I guess those people will always buy that way.....and Dodge will still never be Number 1.
Enjoy
- Tim
I think our point has been that we (at least some of us) are joining this forum to decide what truck is going to be a better buy in 2000. We are trying to filter through people's byass to see what real information they have to share.
Now you have admitted that ALL of your vehicles are GM (and they have been so for some time, isn't that right?). You rip Dodge for what? They sell less than Chevy? They have a LOWER resale than Chevy? Do they have a lower innitial quality rating than Chevy? I know you think the Chevy looks better. You could probably say Dodge made inferior trucks in the '70s and '80s (except for the introduction of Cummins). But really, you seem an awful lot like a "Chevy Guy" to me. The "Chevy Guys" I know will never give Ford or Dodge credit for squat. Likewise, their Chevy's clunking transmission must be like music to thier ears, and their recalls must allow them the enjoyment of visiting their good-buddy dealer. (the same could be said of true "Ford Guys", or even "Dodge Guys").
I really don't care if you buy Chevy trucks for the rest of your life. You will be the one missing some good Fords, Dodges, Toyotas, etc. It is just hard for the rest of us to get some good unbiased information from "Chevy Guys" about the new GM pickups (which appears to be a great design with 1st model year problems that will hopefully be fixed). I am just trying to balance the good and bad from all the trucks.
And as far as your long-term quality argument in favor of GM, I don't think any of the rest of us associate high quality, innovation, performance or dependability with GM since the '60s (my dad sure liked his mid-'60s Olds and early '60s 'Vette). I personally see over 30 years of mediocrity. For a company that has resources that dwarf Ford and Dodge, I expect a lot better than what I have seen in their pickups (forced to innovate by other trucks), the anemic Corvette (inferior to the Viper and even Honda (NSX), and the second-rate luxury sedans from Cadillac. I'll never understand why GM has about 50 divisions that basically offer the same quality. What ever happened to 1-Cadillac, 2-Buick, 3-Oldsmobile, Chevy/Pontiac.
Now, the new Silverado/Sierra shows me some promise, but I have certainly seen better dependability and innitial quality from Dodge with my dad and my Dodge trucks than my friends and boss have had with their new GM trucks.
Have a good weekend, I'm taking my truck camping,
Greg
I have given Dodge and Ford plenty of Credit where it is due. Dodge has come a long way in recent years...it's still not good enough...but a long way. I see much more than Just Chevrolet.
As I told all the others....I state the facts.
But why waste my time here...as I've done in the past.
Enjoy what ever you buy
- Tim