As long as I am shelling out 30K+ for a truck the brand doesn't mean squat to me. The best truck I have ever had was a '77 Ford F250 custom with a 351M (still going strong). Conversely the worst truck I ever had was a Ford. Right now I have a 96 Chevy Z71 E-cab, an excellent trouble free truck also.
The bottom line is that all manufacturers have there peaks and valleys; if you don't put brand name aside you certainly will miss out along the way. Right now I like the Chevys for gas engines, Fords for diesel. However if Chevy doesn't get off their butt and produce a quad cab and heaven forbid a crew cab in the new style, I will be submitting my order for a powerstroke crew cab in Jan! And as for the new GM Diesel may I suggest the new International 8.0L which is a wet-sleeve design unlike the powerstroke or cummins.
the best thing about this topic is that we can go back and follow your words. You said in an earlier posting I quote:
"All my cars have been GM. I like their products I have been switched to trucks in recent years...and since I like GM....I have 2 choices. And seeing how I don't like GMC looks...It's Chevrolet for me!"
Just because you purchased a ford for your wife doesn't change things. You "All my cars Have been GM" are loyal, and your lolyalty will stop you from venturing out and exploring other options. "I have 2 choices" You actually have many choices if you relax the loyalty thing.
Do me a favor Timmy address the decade theory when it comes to Honda and Toyota. I think that you forgot about that little flaw in your "they are good because they have been good for decades, and what they did 20 yrs ago has a lot more to do with what they do now" theory. Please!
To everyone else: Motor Trend did a little comparision of the ford 350, CHevy Silver., Tundra and The Beautiful Dodge RAM!!! in their latest edition. they do not choice a winner. But, they do list their performance characteristic, tranny, powertrain, stopping distance, etc. You know the usual tables for Motor Trend. They also list some of the ups and downs for each.
It may help you open minded buyers make a decision.
Why is it that the big truck makers have such different trucks. After all of this time researching what people want you would think that all Full-size trucks would be basically the same.
I think that the truck companies are all in bed together. One companies high point is anothers low. It seems almost purposeful.
Lets look: 1. Chevy - supposed to be the most advanced technologically rear disc breaks, good performance, great towing, etc. But no forth door. (Stops them from completely dominating the market)
2. Ford - They make this huge truck 6'8" tall copying looks from the Ram, but the back seat is so damn small. Much smaller than the ram and the chevy (Stops them from completely dominating the market)
3. Dodge - Makes a great looking truck, four doors good performance, cummings engines, But as timmy pooh will point out no history/ Ford or Chevy type loyalty. (Stops them from dominating the Market.)
4. Tundra - best engine, bets reliability, best performance, looks like a ford. But Its not really a full size truck. (stops them from dominating the market.)
It seems to me that if a company, Say Ford came out with a full-size truck that had some of Dodges good looks and size, chevys back seat and towing power, toyotas reliability and raw power, and of coures Fords loyalty. their would be one Truck that dominated the market.
even if chevy had come out with a quad cab they would have doubled their sales. One of the major reasons I didn't buy one.
If toyota had made the tundra a lot bigger it would have destroyed the American truck market. I would have never left Toyota. (Atleast for, 1500 and 150 buyers)
The only maker that I think has tried to address all issues is Dodge and they have not had the large following of a Ford, or a Chevy. (May sit little high for some).
It's a conspiracy. All of the makers hold back a little to ensure that the market doesn't change much. Maybe it's the unions.
There is always going to be a problem designing the perfect truck to dominate the market because major producers always compromise.
I am not going to get into the issue of manufacturers again, but consider this. There are only a handful of truck manufacturers, but millions of potential buyers, every manufacturer wants to appeal to as many as possible, so that means compromise. Take trucklover's Toyota example for instance - he says its not really a full size truck (it isn't) and so won't dominate the market. Now many buyers would see the slightly smaller size as an advantage - especially outside of North America. The sme can be said of the Dakota - full size power, less than full size (though not really the compact Dodge likes to claim).
Throw in the additional compromises over cost, trucks have to be both affordable and competitive.
Finally, how's this for a thought - manufacturers don't want to dominate the market. Think about it, if a new truck truly revolutionizes the industry then a fledgeling production process has to produce hundreds of thousands of the damn things.
Believe me GM and Ford welcome the competition from one another, and more recently from Dodge and the imports because it means that trucks can be delivered within a reasonable amount of time from order and we avoid huge backlogs.
For us the consumer it is also good, if one company dominates then there is less pressure for innovation. The presence of true competition inspires a myriad of new initiatives.
I know buyers want different things, but it would be nice if the companies would come out with their new truck improved in all facets compared to their old truck. Take the '94+ Dodge. We had an '89 dodge cummins and a 8 1/2' camper. When we got the '97 dodge we found out the first time we were going to go camping that the darn tailgate was NARROWER (I think it is almost 3" narrower) than the older truck! We could not get the camper on the truck!
Then there is the lack of the 4th door on the GM, the lack of head rests on the dodge backseat. Why couldn't Toyota make their truck about 3" longer to make that backseat full? GM has such huge resources, why haven't they been offering a decent diesel? I'm not as familiar with the Ford, but I'm sure there are similar shortcomings.
Granted, some of these problems are related to a lag time to catch up to the innovations of the competition, but the Tundra could have been that much bigger without a significant change in cost or performance. And the dodge should have been designed where every facet of the truck was superior to the old truck. Well, now we have a new bigger camper and have almost forgotten the stupid design problem.
All I want is a full size truck that drives like a car on the highway, off-roads like a hum-vee, carries 6 people in comfort, goes up hills with a big camper and boat at 65 mph, has some form of compression braking for downhill, and gets 22 mpg. --All for under $30k. Wait, I guess until about 10 years ago, most of these would have been totally unheard of in a pickup at all, so I guess the manufacturers and engineers are getting some things right.
On the '97 Cummins with the auto tranny, when climbing hills, the transmission downshifts two gears, and it is difficult to keep the rig going around 60-65 mph without over-revving in too low of a gear. I know the engine has plenty of power to pull the hill in a higher gear, but you can't get it in (at least without trying to tease the tranny into gear). I know this was a universal problem, and there was a custom way to deal with the problem. Does anyone know if Dodge has handled this problem in the newer models?
Also, does anyone know if Dodge has any plans to offer (or do they already) some form of compression braking for the diesel. Does Ford on the Powerstroke?
Will the 2500 Silverado/Sierra be a year or more behind the 1500 when GM finally decides to offer the 4th door?
Finally, anyone know anything about the new 2000 model year 2500 HD Sierra/Silverado (4WD, Extended cab) with the 6.0 liter? Dependability? Ride? Off-road? Towing/power? Efficiency? I haven't seen any good info yet. Or is it even available yet?
I just looked at the 2000 new Sierra on KBB.com, and compared comparable Sierra vs Ram, set up for heavy duty 4WD, Camper, towing, and gadgets. Comparing totally loaded (at least for my likes) New 2000 2500 HD GMC Sierra (4WD, auto, extended cab long bed) to 1999 2500 Dodge Ram (Cummins, 4WD, auto, quad cab).
The GMC came to a $30,179 dealer invoice - loaded (V8, 6.0 liters, 300 HP, 355 lbs torque, (??) mpg, 8,600-lb GVWR). (leather not available)
VS
The Dodge dealer invoice is $31,551 - loaded (215 HP, 420 lbs torque, +20 mpg, 8,800-lbs GVWR, no leather) - (I do not want to bother with the 5.9 liter gas engine).
I know there are better comparisons out there (Powerstroke vs Cummins, 5.9 liter gas Dodge vs 6.0 liter GM vs whatever Ford, etc.) but these are currently my favorite options.
Listen to yourselves. This is the best, and that is the best. Remember history, Henry Ford once said you can have it any color you want, as long as it is BLACK. Ford all most die. We have these choices, and we buy our choices. Thats the best part of it. If every manufacturer had the same, we still would not be happy. And if the manufactures listened to us totally, we could not afford the damn things. The best auto/truck is the one we are the happiest with. Yes I have the best, and so do you. The UNITED STATES makes the best, if you don't believe so go to another country and see what choices you have. Don't compare apples and oranges. The US has the greatest variety for us to choose from with the domestic and foreign, and you can't afford that any where else. Plus you have the greatest places to take your vehicles on or off road. Now if you want to compare something compare the use of your favorite vehicle in another country(take in mind all cost). Now take your 4X4 to Italy and try to drive in town.
What was that garbage? Well golly darn, maybe we should just be happy with what the manufacturers offer us. We wouldn't want to complain when a company short-changes us an option that is obviously possible and in high demand. No, lets not publicly address what we actually want, or what bothers us about what is absent. That might actually expedite change.
Sure, the US is the greatest country, offers the greatest variety, and it surely has the greatest places to use our trucks. But the reason the US is so great is that people are not satisfied with the status quo (or even current innovations, for that matter). People exercising capitalism and the First Ammendment (backed up by the Second Ammendment, but I don't need to go there). We [non-permissible content removed] about what is not offered. We demand higher quality, more options, and better dependability. Designers and producers do listen, make changes, and we buy what we want at the best price possible.
If a company does not respond, they die (or at least slump). However, if we do not identify what is missing by complaining, lower sales may not provide enough information to help the manufacturers rapidly make the changes. I can't believe you are complaining about a forum like this because we complain about missing options or poor quality, identifying what more we want more from each manufacturer.
And the ultimate stupidity is "And if the manufactures listened to us totally, we could not afford the damn things." If you can't afford all the options I want on my truck, buy the base model! Oh yeah, maybe you haven't heard of the base model, considering that the main reason why pickup sales are so up is that they are finally competing with cars (with all the gadgets and comfort options that make auto travel pleasant) - Base models do not sell.
Like Dana Carvey as Grandpa on Saturday Night Live -- go out and enjoy your standard cab pickup with vinyl interior, metal dash, and rock-hard springs -- "And we liked it that way!!"
Sincerely, An Ungrateful Capitalist
P.S.: Oh yeah, anyone have any feedback on my last post about New Sierra 2500 HD & Ram Cummins?
I am new to this chat room. A lot of interesting topics. I think I am steering toward Dodge Ram 2000 Quad cab. I have emailed Chevrolet about when the 4 door Silverado’s are coming out and all they will tell me is sometime this model year. What the hell is that? Is it some big !@E$ secret? I need to buy soon and the dealer don’t know anything about the quad cabs. All they want is you to buy what they have. Getting tired of it. I really want a quad cab. We have a four door Venture Van. LOVE IT. The fourth door is extremely handy with two kids, hence the need for 4 door truck. I just don’t see the reason for not telling when the 4 door is going to be out, except for greed. The only thing I can figure is to sell the 2000’s they have out then get a second wave of sales on the quad cabs. Well they just pushed me away. I WANT IT NOW!!!!! Oh well, I am sure I will like the Dodge. Can anyone talk me out of it? Thanks for listening!!!!!!!!!!
buy a dodge. I have one kid and one of on thw way and the 4th door is great. I also walked away from chevy because of the lack of a 4th door.
It is actually easier to put my kid in th back of my dodge than it was any other vehicle I have owned. You do not have to bend over and hurt your back. everything is at chest level.
I have a 99 black, quad 4x4 sport. I love it. It is great on the highway, and even better off road. you can actually fit six comfortably. It's so damn wide. I have about 13k miles and have had no problems at all. milege gets better everyday.
All shined up it looks great, as well. I will say again chevy blew it with this 3 door non-sense.
Three doors Suck! four doors Rule.
Quick question 99 chevy owners (I am not bashing, honest!) with the new disk brakes in the rear, I would have thought the stopping distance would be much better.
When I read the comparision in Motor Trend recently, the reported the chevy stopping distance from 60 mph - 0 to be 148 ft. The Dodge stopped in 143 feet. Why isn't the distance much greater. Is the hipe about rear disk brakes just non-sense or am I just missing something. (I really want to know, I am not bashing)
aetech - your views are not worth commenting on, and coming from me that is insult indeed. (It is probably also the first time that Ford and Chevy guys will agree with me).
gwmoore - sorry can't help - but some one must know the answers
Mike - no intention of trying to talk you out of the Dodge (but I am a Dodge guy). I think you will love the ease of access as trucklover says, and you won't have to compromise on anything else.
The advantage of rear disk brakes is they shed heat more efficiently than drum brakes, so they don't fade (towing is a good example) when they are used a lot. Drum brakes (in the back anyway) are just as effective as far as stopping power is concerned (besides, once a wheel is locked up, thats that, more braking power is useless)
All the mags come up with different numbers. Supposedly one of the recent tsets came up with a 20 feet difference. Brakes on the 1500 series is dodges' weak point. I understand that the surface area of the brakes is much greater on the 2500 and 3500 series.
Not bashing - here's the facts. On any given vehicle a change from drum to disk brakes of similar size will reduce your stopping distance; and as pointed out above are better at dissipating heat. Read some sports or racing magazines and you'll learn about brake technology. See how many sports cars use drum brakes? = 0. Why? because every manufacturer knows disk are better. Why do some less expensive cars use drum? I would guess to save money, and the attitude of the manufacturer that the typical buyer of this car won't care or know about brakes. Oh and when you read any performance comparisions of vehicles, ask how scientific are these people? They're selling magazines, not being scientists. Changing tire sizes/brands/setting the pressure right makes a difference. Oh by the way ... I don't see too many recruits from the "Ford vs. Dodge" topic that you were trying to get. Is everyone out playing with the 4th door? if you're that lazy or likely to hurt your back, you better get Richard Simmons "Working out with the Oldies". You'll be happy with that match with Dodge's oldies' technology.
I agree with what you said about brakes. Disk brakes are obviously superior. Sure, drums might be less expensive to make, but I wonder how much it costs to have different lines and tooling equipment in the factory for BOTH types of brakes. It seems like the higher efficiency of only making disks would offset much of the added cost. Maybe eliminating the drums and making just disks would still cost an additional couple hundred dollars per vehicle. Seems like a small drop in the bucket to me. However, this way, they probably have a higher profit margin. You just have to hope someone comes in and makes 4-wheel disks standard to put pressure on the other manufacturers, a la GM.
As for your last point, I'm not sure, but it sounded like you were making fun of us for demanding the fourth door. (I'm kinda getting tired of people joining this forum and then complaining that we are complaining) To me, its similar to disk vs drum brakes. I think the reason GM isn't offering the 4th door is like you said about brakes, "I would guess to save money, and the attitude of the manufacturer that the typical buyer of this car won't care or know about brakes" (or the 4th door in this case). Well, we obviously do know and care about the 4th door. And like Avid Outdoorsman Mike, I'm trying to decide between the Sierra and Ram 2500s. I see through GM's idea that they can sell the first model year truck without the more costly 4th door, just because people want it so badly they will put up with the deficiency. Well, I hope people will smarten up, wait to buy, and make GM have to sit on a big inventory of 3-doors.
To me door number isn't an issue. BUT there is obviously a demand for four doors out there. Why else would four doors have become standard in vans, and fast moving that way in trucks.
There is no way that three doors can be 'better' than four doors, cheaper yes, better no. I really can't see any argument on this point - personally you may or may not need the doors, but having them can't be bad. Case in point - Dakota. I am a Dodge man through and through, and I drive a Dakota. Are two doors enough for me, yes, is it ridiculous to make a club cab with just two doors, yes.
if anyone has any information on the 2000-year New Sierra/Silverado 2500 HD vs Ram 2500. Any information on the following would be appreciated - The new 6.0-liter GM engine. New GM 3/4-ton suspension & brakes. Will GM offer the 4th door on the 2500 when they do on the 1500? Any information on the transmission and shifting on Ram-Cummins (if they changed the 2-gear downshift when pulling hills that happens on the '97 Cummins I drive). Has anyone heard any real structural problems off-road with the Ram Quad Cab?
Obviously "You people" (as Ross said it) have no idea what a year long strike and a model change over can do to a schedule. It's not the issue of not wanting to put it out....it's just been delayed. It makes no difference to me...but I'm sure Manlover will accuse me of wanting a fourth door anyway. Let's see...it took Dodge 3 years after their re-design to come out with a 4th door...hmmm....Chevy starting 2nd year of new design...and almost out..hmmmm.
As usual this topic is..
"Clowns(Ford)to the left of me...Jokers(Dodge)to the right...here I am...Stuck In the Middle with you..." - Bob Dylan
Lemme take the boxing gloves off here...even willing to set down the brass knuckles.
I own a Chevy 2000 2500 HD and can tell you it is one nice truck. Lot's of power in the entire spectrum. Great handling and braking. Massive brakes and exhaust..as well as axles. It can ride a little rough when empty...but hey..it's a 3/4! The 2500's have none of the problems that the 1/2 5.3's do...as farr as I know. Be sure to get the 4:10. The dodge is a good truck as well. To compare the cummins to the gas 6.0 is not really even...but I'd rather have the 6.0 than the 6.5 diesel. They will have some new bigger Vortec V-8's and a couple new disels soon. Gas V-8's in Dodge are worthless....well almost. If you get a 3/4 Dodge...get the diesel....and ONLY the diesel.
As for the 4th door.....Like everything else...the 3/4 will follow the 1/2 some time after. But who knows??..maybe they might surprise us?
OK
Gloves back on...with Brass Knuckles under.
I AM stuck in the middle!....I state facts in the past...and then be stuck in the middle of a debate...with Clowns and Jokers..LOL!
You have earned even more respect from me for a very objective post (well except for the V8 dig) - though on a 2500 you MAY be right. Incidentally the new 4.7L V8 was described my Motor Week TV as the best engine Chrysler have ever come up with.
I know that is just asking for a comment on Chrsyler engines, but it really is one nice engine.
I do have some sympathy with the state facts then take the flak point of view, I try and stick to facts too, but to follow your argument that would put me with Chevy.
Just when I thought I should just stop reading Tim's posts, he hit one out of the park. You better be careful, Tim, that sounded unbiased, logical, and helpful. Someone tell Rodney King that "we can all just get along!"
I agree with you to a certain degree about the Dodge gas engines. I have a Dakota with the 318 and it annoys me that my buddies Chevy 350s get better mileage than me, even though my truck is smaller and they have more power. I really like my truck and am happy with the power, and it has been dependable. But I am tired of borrowing my dad's Cummins when I need to use a real truck. My preference is the Cummins engine, but I really like the GMs interior (back seat in particular), the 6.0-liter, and the new frame (and I think the suspension). That's where my comparison of the Cummins to the 6.0-liter comes from.
Tim, how's the 2500 loaded down. I know it is a real truck, and actually like a little of the stiffness (as long as it's not a ball-breaker like my old '89 dodge). If the new GM 2500 HD is like the 1500 at all, it does not look like it has anywhere near the wheel travel that the Dodge 2500 has, and I was wondering what a load like a big camper does to it.
My last post, #505, may have been a little cynical, but was brought about after reading a post by Trucklover on the Ford vs. Dodge board to come here and help him. Anyway here's my perspective on the door and Dodge issue. One of the main threads here has been that Dodge is superior because it has a 4th door. In my perspective that 4th door is one of a hundred things to look at, not the MAIN thing. Would I pay or wait for a 3rd door on an extended cab - definitely yes! THAT solves the main problem of getting in the back. No sliding seats, pulling things over the front, etc. Walking around the truck isn't a big deal. Now there'll be a few of you who point out that you get tools out every 1/2 hour, and thus it is a real advantage. For most people though it's not a big deal. If you want to know the main reason I picked a Chevy over a Dodge, Ford, or Tundra, it's because of the power and economy of the 5.3L engine, the biggest backseat (I'd rather people being comfortable than being able to get in either side), and especially the Autotrack 4WD.
Dodge has two engines that produce any power for their class....Cummins and V-10. While the others may be good in some ways...when you compare HP and Torque with similar Litre Ford and Chevy..they lack big time...these are the facts.
Chevy does lack the door...no doubt about it. But it is much more superior in many ways. Dodge may still be just as good to a point where the average Joe may never even notice any difference between the two. Looks are purely each individual taste..and can't be compared for anything else but that....Individual taste.
I have new respect?....I've always said you are all welcome for a beer and stogie...just let me tell the facts...and live with them!
How's the 2500 loaded down?...Dunno yet. I've been kinda slacking on a bedliner. I've got one coming tuesday and need a few pallets of bricks..so we shall see. The 2500 with Firm Ride is one stiff [non-permissible content removed]...so I'd imagine a camper in the back would be just fine. It's got tons of power on the highway...so no problem for that issue when loaded and needing power to get up that hill. The tow switch does more than just lock out overdrive..it totally reprograms the tranny. Even when dry..you can tell the massive agression it puts into the shifting pattern.
Gas mileage?..about 13 max when dry...when driving like me that is..But I quench my thirst with gasoline....as I've done all my life. Oh well.
To me, the big deal about the 4th door is that GM should have it offered. Regardless of strikes or any other weak excuse. When they were designing this truck, they were well aware of Dodge and Ford offering the 4th door (I'm sure they knew about their 4th door offerings well before they hit the market). Heck, they had the 3rd door, it seems they would have wanted to improve on themselves. They had plenty of time to engineer the door into the truck. And I see no reason why the 2500 shouldn't come out with the 4th door at the same time as the 1500, but you can bet it will be later. Like I've said before, I think GM is just looking to suck people into buying the truck with the 3rd door, make a ton of money, then make a bunch more money when they release the 4th door. Viva capitalism if they can get away with it. It just rubs me the wrong way when someone or some company takes me for granted. I wish more people would say heck with 'em and wait, but that is up to the customer. Besides, for my work, and when I go bird hunting, I want to be able to get out of my truck and quickly grab stuff in the back seat. With the 3rd door on the other side of the truck, it is not nearly as convenient. So four doors do make a difference other than letting people in and out.
Now, I agree that there are many more important considerations. I'm with Tim, GM's gas engines are tops (although I prefer the Cummins and probably the Powerstroke). 4-wheel disc brakes & ABS. . . . 4-wheel drive systems and suspensions. These are definitely more important considerations than doors. However, those differences are more based on engineering and innovation, and don't appear to be a slap in the buyers' faces quite like the 4th door, at least not to me.
Tim - how long have you had your 2000 Silverado 2500. Were the dealers very flexible, or is there too much demand? Did you have to deal with the brake recall? or is that just on the 1500? Did they have the windshield fixed, or does it make that wierd sound at highway speeds? Is the main difference between the 2500 and the 2500 HD the "Firm Ride"? Geez, I feel like your little buddy now. It seems that most of the posts are related to the 1/2 trucks, its nice to get some information on the heavier trucks.
I'm jumping in late, not to bash, but to let you know that at first, I considered the Ram Cummins choice versus the Silverado 6.0L. They are really not that comparable. Live front axle on the Ram 4x4, independent front for the Chevy. Worlds of difference in feel and purpose. Probably either truck can be right, depending on what you are asking it to do. I think the Ram can tow about 14,000 pounds in its maximum configuration. The 2500 Chevy is not in that class yet. I actually preferred the interior of an upscale Ram with leather bench seat, and rosewood appliques on the dash. Exterior styling, well both are nice. The Chevy certainly has a more refined car-like ride with the independent front suspension, but is that ideal for a truck?
In the end, what it all came down to for me was that I didn't need what the Cummins/Ram offered in abundance. I really didn't even need what the 6.0L 2500 offered, so I opted for practicality and function by getting a mid-level LS trim 1/2 ton and fuel efficient 5.3L V8. No regrets. Moral? Don't buy less than you need, but anything more is a waste, so choose carefully, and decide in advance what you want to tow, or haul, and how often. Pulling a camper on the holidays? Gas engine can be fine. Pulling a horse trailer and tack, or big 5th wheel on a regular basis, or heavy commercial use? You might want a diesel.
I have to admit I saw a 99 chevy 3500 ext cab black 4x4 with silver flared fenders and I was impressed. Is your like this Timmy? Also Timmy, why did you get the big engine? Do you tow alot or something?
For all that care they are offering 1k rebate on selected (what ever the hell that means) 99 silverados now.
The 4th door issue is not a small issue when you have kids or often carry freinds around. The main reason that I walked away from chevy was the door.
I actually sat down, got the deal and almost signed the papers. But I couldn't do it. I new that evertime I needed to get my kids, or the groceries, or my tools, or let my brother out, I would get pissed off.
I new the suttle differences in performance and braking but they are not as important to me because they are so suttle. I would never notice those suttle differences in daily driving, but I would notice not having a driver side 4th door everyday when I got out of the truck and had to get my breifcase out of the back.
I have to admit if chevy had offered a 4th door I might be sitting with old Timmy Pooh drinking a beer bashing ford. AAAHHHAA!!!! Scarrrry
You notice I did not say bashing Dodge!!!!!!!! RAM RULESSSS!!!! HAHAAHAHAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not that he needs it! If I had bought a Chevy I would have gotten the 6.0 also. As it stands my V10 should be on the railcar as we speak. Do I tow a lot? No. Do I crave the max. available power and totally disregard fuel economy? (This is a full size 3/4 ton truck isn't it?). Absolutely! Tim probably bought his 6.0 for the smile he gets every time he stands on the gas pedal. When he needs to tow/haul a heavy load the power is there - no worries. I admit if you own a business then fuel economy becomes very important. But for personal use it's balls to the walls IMHO.
In an attempt to pull a couple of streams together here.....
Tim mentioned that Chevy had a lot of advantages in engineering over Dodge, and in many respects he is right. He also said that many of these changes wouldn't be noticed by average drivers - again he is right (Oh God what am I saying!!!!)
We all have different levels of expertise and knowledge when it comes to trucks - but we share one thing - a love for them. Most buyers don't have the same level of interest in many of the things we discuss - just look at the post in the 'Why do you drive a pickup' topic recently from the guy who bought a Ranger because his wife thought it looked "kinda cute".
Anyway to get to the point, people notice doors - therefore it is a big deal. By contrast people don't always understand the subtleties between various 4wd systems, or suspensions. Most people look at horsepower, less so at torque (unless they tow).
marcord - power for power's sake? Hey I'm a guy ain't I - the faster I can get to that next gas station the better!!!
I was just about to post my message and the damn computer glitched, now I have to write it all out again. Oh well, I guess I get to perfect it this time.
To start with, I live in the Great Northwest High Desert . . . We have MOUNTAINS here. Last weekend I was driving my truck on a road at 9,350 feet. And it seems you have to climb something to go anywhere here.
My experience with 1/2-tons is that they have borderline brakes and suspension for my needs. Although I now have a '97 Dakota (yes, smaller than a 1/2-ton), but it has 1/2-ton duty frame, components, and engine (318") on a smaller body --- it holds up great. But when I go back to a real-size truck, I want to have the heavier brakes, suspension, steering, and engine on the 3/4-ton.
And I am going along with Tim (again, I can't believe it), the 3/4-ton trucks I have been in lately have just as good or better ride than the 1/2-ton trucks. So, for a small sum more money, I would much prefer the heavier duty truck that should do the job better and hold up longer.
Fuel efficiency, shmuel shmneissciency! Give me power! Sure efficiency is important. It really gets me that my buddies' Chevys with their 350s get about 5 mpg better than I do, and they have bigger trucks and more towing power. But efficiency is not why we are buying pickups, and 2-3 miles per gallon is a mute point. You can talk to me about 5-10 mpg difference (hence, the Cummins). Range is more important to me. When I go bird hunting in the desert up here, there are huge areas with no services, so fuel efficiency and a big fuel tank are important. But I can always, and do, carry gas cans.
Tim, I checked out some of your posts on other forums and got some of my answers. I also checked the forums for the Silverado/Sierra 1500s. It sounds like the 2500 is the only way to go.
Comparing the Sierra 6.0 and the Ram Cummins is legitimate because I consider them the best options for my needs in a 3/4-ton truck, one gas and one diesel. I think the Sierra is going to be the best truck (not by much). I know the Cummins is the best engine (although the 6.0 sounds like it should be great). I can save some money with the Sierra (innitial investment & oil changes), and the 6.0 should be dependable and last a long time. One thing that makes me nervous about the Sierra is all the problems the '99 Silverado/Sierra 1500s have had. I just hope the problems will not make their way into the 2500s. And the lack of that damn 4th door . . .
OK, I have finally cracked - please send the men in white coats round, I am about to defend Sierra / Silverado.
gwmoore, you are right about the problems in the '99s, but don't forget that was year one for the model. If there aren't problems, there probably isn't enough new stuff on the truck.
Quadrunner 5000, Your question about the independent front suspension on the GM. I have yet to hear anyone complain about problems in any sense with the independent front suspension on heavy duty trucks, although I would love to hear if anyone has any comments on it.
I frequently tow a heavy double ATV trailer, and when I do, it is commonly on very rough ranch roads. I will also load the truck down with a camper and tow boats or the ATVs with the camper. In my opinion, that's too much for a 1/2-ton in the long run, especially with the mountains I climb.
Pretty soon I am going to suggest that you and Tim get a room if you keep agreeing with him. And now you are actually giving GM a break. "Dogs living with Cats!"
Really, I do understand that first year snaffus do occur, but I have seen enough quality issues with GM in the new Sierra/Silverado and my buddies '97 & '98 1/2-tons to make me a little careful. By the way, the only first-year problem I had with my '97 Dakota was a simple fan clutch. But my dealer experience fixing that little problem has me to the point that I would rather pay a real mechanic to fix a warranteed problem than to go back to a dealer service department ever again.
Hit back too many times....lost my post....short version to follow: (kinda)
IF GM is planning to sell us the 3 door new model...and then a 4 door right after..who's the fool here? I already planned on buying a new one 2 years from now...even before I knew 4 doors was coming. I believe any one who really wants it...like Rich...is waiting.
GW,
had it a month now. Ordered it in march...order was cancelled...got a 2000 instead. Never really considered a 3/4 until I compared with a Z71....I was changed right then and there. There was high demand..and no flexibility...due to the fact that GM discount is one price...period. Shortly after I drove a few...they dried up here. rarely see one for sale or on the road for that matter. Who cares..i got mine! 2500's don;t have the brake recall..or any problems that I know of. The windshield noise is usually a bug guard. The 4WD 6.0 is the 8600 GVW HD....2WD 5.3 is the 7200 GVW LD.....Firm ride is the 36mm shocks instead of 32mm. Is it more than I need??...maybe...maybe not. I've never had anything smaller than a 350..and never went past 16MPG.....so why start now?? Marcord is right on with his theory as why I have one. To me...a door is a piss poor excuse to not buy the more superior truck...(the marketing must work for some!!) The 2 most common quetions I get are...4 door and Z71....so you tell me if marketing works for most of the American Dolts?
The suspension/mechanical/reliability/safety/etc..is what should be important....but the only thing most of the public can tell you is.....Doors and maybe HP. hell...I bet you 98% of the people that own Z71's have no idea what it is! I bet ya it sounds like this..."it means 4WD"..."it's the off road package"...OK..what's in it?....."duhhhhhhhhh.....Off road stuff" "I drove in 2" of snow last year!!...helped me out big time"..."glad i got it"...
Marketing works big time. We are a small...SUPER small group that go this farr into the details of our trucks. Probably all 20 of us in the world are all here! So let the rest of them talk about doors....I got more important stuff to consider....Thank God we don't buy because Our wives say it was "cute". Excuse me for a minute....I have to barf! ..(well..maybe Dodge owners buy them for that reason?) ...and everybody seems to be agreeing with me now...see...you guys finally have woke up and smelled the coffee! I always knew I was right!
I do have more to say about the doors, but I promised not to. Gotta keep my word.
The windshield noise on the new GM 1500s was faulty mounting on both sides (particularly on the right side). I'm not sure, it might have only been on the GMC, but that does not seem right. Somehow the mounting rubber flapped and/or air funneled under the glass. Regardless, my boss took his back into the dealer about 3 times before they fixed it. Looking at the 1500 forums, it sounds like a ton, if not all, of the new GMC 1500 trucks had the problem.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear GM did a better job on the 2500 (no brake recalls, etc.). I get sick and tired of Toyota lovers having ammunitition for their argument that Toyota has so much better quality than the Americans (which, in general, they do). Well, it's also nice to be able to say America is the only game in town when you talk about MANLY trucks (>1/2-tons). You have definitely helped me decide that the 2500 is the way to go if I do the GM route. I sure like that Cummins and my experience with the Ram 2500, though.
Tim, The doors due matter to some buyers. I'm one of them since my personal-98 Ford has three and I wish I had four doors. Being a roofing contractor, I'm also interested in the new crew-cabs coming soon from Ford--holds workers better. Doors? Mattered to buyers of minivans and the Windstar suffered without it.
As I have said in other topics: Looks matter to most personal buyers. To me? No because I buy trucks for work but to most it does. Most Ford-haters bring up the "swoopy" lines or "taurus-like" looks. When Dodge was introduced in 94--people went nuts because of the way it LOOKED. Not function or reliability came to play here. I have always bought trucks for function, versatility, reliabilty, and working factors. If it looked good as well then it was merely a bonus. Now Tim, you're right, why buy a lesser truck because of a missing door. In my personal choice, I went with a superior truck despite the fourth door or looks: Ford.
Hello all: I'm new to trucks and am looking to buy a V6 short box silverado 5-speed transmission. Mostly for safety and height, and some occasional towing. Is there anything about GM V6's that I should know? Price is a factor here and I can get a really good deal right now. Any opinions would be welcome.
for me it doesnt matter if i had a 4th or not because if i need to get to the back seat, my drivers seat slides wayyy up and i can more or less reach or if i have to craw to get whatever i need
i agree with Tim, doors are stupid to base a persons decission on, when theres more important issues like safety, and POWER(hehe, had to throw that one in)
You got more to say about doors? Spit it out! You asked about how she does loaded down....well I found out. I don't get the liner until Tuesday..but the wife was bothering me something fierce to go get her dads 1 ton and get some brick pavers. I said screw it...and threw a sheet of plywood in the back and walah!!...a bedliner! I got two pallets of pavers (about 2900 lbs. each)..one at a time. It brought the rear down about almost just level...looked real good. Put it into haul/tow mode....and pulled out into traffic. It pulled very well..and the suspension was still very stiff....and in control. Aside from the engine being noticably higher RPM's....it hardly showed much difference than when dry. Book says payload is 3115...but I've had almost that much in my half ton before. (I was lighting up the tree tops...but it worked!) All and all..it hauled very good. Had no vibration or shudder that some have when loaded down. Don't worry about what the Rice fans have to say...I mean really...do you honestly think Toiletta is even any where near the same rank as Chevrolet or Ford?
Roc,
I know the door matters to alot of people...just not me. Marketing brain washes people big time. The same people that I've known for years..that have gotten along just fine with their Minivan/truck with 2 or 3 doors....Can't possibly live another second on this planet without the 4th door now. It's the only thing they can talk about. I'm sure there are things that I feel are important....that others feel is way stupid...so be it. The wrath is being kept under control here...I mean how can i argue with you Roc?...A fellow hunter and beer drinker?
Lethal,
When I get my next one in a couple years...I'm sure I will buy the 4th door....just to have a door on the drivers side..where it should be. When the seat is all the way forward...it's still just a hair bit tight sometimes to reach back there. Oh well..walk around to the other side. Fine by me for now. And the superduty has only looks for superiority. It's GVW is less than the 3/4 Chevy...if I'm thinking straight tonight? (this damn Codeine in this medicine hits ya hard!) If anyone wants to wait for 4 doors...that's fine...I chose not to...as it's just not an issue for me.
Tim just got a new truck. He hasn't had any significant troubles with it. He got to load it down last weekend. No wonder we haven't heard his wrath spew forth recently. It's amazing what a new truck can do for a man's attitude (even if it doesn't have the 4th door).
Tim, I haven't seen the 3/4-ton new model up close yet. Does it have more wheel travel? Sit a little higher? Sounds like it must if loaded down, it just comes to level. The 1500s already look pretty level unloaded.
It sits on a slant...with rear being higher obviously..duh! Yes it's higher than a 1/2...how much??..dunno. I'd say it sits about the same as a 1/2 Dodge?...but what do I know? Whhel travel?.....hmmmm...beats the %^&*$# out of me.
The wrath is always available at will....just don't see any need for it here. I mean..I have already wrathed this bunch!
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Comments
Since I am so stuck on only one brand...you know.."chevy guy"....That must explain the Chevrolet Mustang my Wife wanted that I bought her.
I didn't know Chevrolet Made those? (that's all I buy ya know)
She works for D.C.....but said they don't make anything worth buying.......go figure.
..Where is that beer??
- Tim
The bottom line is that all manufacturers have there peaks and valleys; if you don't put brand name aside you certainly will miss out along the way. Right now I like the Chevys for gas engines, Fords for diesel. However if Chevy doesn't get off their butt and produce a quad cab and heaven forbid a crew cab in the new style, I will be submitting my order for a powerstroke crew cab in Jan! And as for the new GM Diesel may I suggest the new International 8.0L which is a wet-sleeve design unlike the powerstroke or cummins.
"All my cars have been GM. I like their products I have been switched to trucks in recent years...and since I like GM....I have 2 choices. And seeing how I don't like GMC looks...It's Chevrolet for me!"
Just because you purchased a ford for your wife doesn't change things. You "All my cars Have been GM" are loyal, and your lolyalty will stop you from venturing out and exploring other options. "I have 2 choices" You actually have many choices if you relax the loyalty thing.
Do me a favor Timmy address the decade theory when it comes to Honda and Toyota. I think that you forgot about that little flaw in your "they are good because they have been good for decades, and what they did 20 yrs ago has a lot more to do with what they do now" theory. Please!
To everyone else:
Motor Trend did a little comparision of the ford 350, CHevy Silver., Tundra and The Beautiful Dodge RAM!!! in their latest edition. they do not choice a winner. But, they do list their performance characteristic, tranny, powertrain, stopping distance, etc. You know the usual tables for Motor Trend. They also list some of the ups and downs for each.
It may help you open minded buyers make a decision.
I think that the truck companies are all in bed together. One companies high point is anothers low. It seems almost purposeful.
Lets look:
1. Chevy - supposed to be the most advanced technologically rear disc breaks, good performance, great towing, etc. But no forth door. (Stops them from completely dominating the market)
2. Ford - They make this huge truck 6'8" tall copying looks from the Ram, but the back seat is so damn small. Much smaller than the ram and the chevy (Stops them from completely dominating the market)
3. Dodge - Makes a great looking truck, four doors good performance, cummings engines, But as timmy pooh will point out no history/ Ford or Chevy type loyalty. (Stops them from dominating the Market.)
4. Tundra - best engine, bets reliability, best performance, looks like a ford. But Its not really a full size truck. (stops them from dominating the market.)
It seems to me that if a company, Say Ford came out with a full-size truck that had some of Dodges good looks and size, chevys back seat and towing power, toyotas reliability and raw power, and of coures Fords loyalty. their would be one Truck that dominated the market.
even if chevy had come out with a quad cab they would have doubled their sales. One of the major reasons I didn't buy one.
If toyota had made the tundra a lot bigger it would have destroyed the American truck market. I would have never left Toyota. (Atleast for, 1500 and 150 buyers)
The only maker that I think has tried to address all issues is Dodge and they have not had the large following of a Ford, or a Chevy. (May sit little high for some).
It's a conspiracy. All of the makers hold back a little to ensure that the market doesn't change much. Maybe it's the unions.
Silly huh! That's my two cent theory. Thoughts?
I am not going to get into the issue of manufacturers again, but consider this. There are only a handful of truck manufacturers, but millions of potential buyers, every manufacturer wants to appeal to as many as possible, so that means compromise. Take trucklover's Toyota example for instance - he says its not really a full size truck (it isn't) and so won't dominate the market. Now many buyers would see the slightly smaller size as an advantage - especially outside of North America. The sme can be said of the Dakota - full size power, less than full size (though not really the compact Dodge likes to claim).
Throw in the additional compromises over cost, trucks have to be both affordable and competitive.
Finally, how's this for a thought - manufacturers don't want to dominate the market. Think about it, if a new truck truly revolutionizes the industry then a fledgeling production process has to produce hundreds of thousands of the damn things.
Believe me GM and Ford welcome the competition from one another, and more recently from Dodge and the imports because it means that trucks can be delivered within a reasonable amount of time from order and we avoid huge backlogs.
For us the consumer it is also good, if one company dominates then there is less pressure for innovation. The presence of true competition inspires a myriad of new initiatives.
Just my .02
...Doesn't go to good with my American Citizenship.
- Tim
Then there is the lack of the 4th door on the GM, the lack of head rests on the dodge backseat. Why couldn't Toyota make their truck about 3" longer to make that backseat full? GM has such huge resources, why haven't they been offering a decent diesel? I'm not as familiar with the Ford, but I'm sure there are similar shortcomings.
Granted, some of these problems are related to a lag time to catch up to the innovations of the competition, but the Tundra could have been that much bigger without a significant change in cost or performance. And the dodge should have been designed where every facet of the truck was superior to the old truck. Well, now we have a new bigger camper and have almost forgotten the stupid design problem.
All I want is a full size truck that drives like a car on the highway, off-roads like a hum-vee, carries 6 people in comfort, goes up hills with a big camper and boat at 65 mph, has some form of compression braking for downhill, and gets 22 mpg. --All for under $30k. Wait, I guess until about 10 years ago, most of these would have been totally unheard of in a pickup at all, so I guess the manufacturers and engineers are getting some things right.
Greg
Also, does anyone know if Dodge has any plans to offer (or do they already) some form of compression braking for the diesel. Does Ford on the Powerstroke?
Will the 2500 Silverado/Sierra be a year or more behind the 1500 when GM finally decides to offer the 4th door?
Finally, anyone know anything about the new 2000 model year 2500 HD Sierra/Silverado (4WD, Extended cab) with the 6.0 liter? Dependability? Ride? Off-road? Towing/power? Efficiency? I haven't seen any good info yet. Or is it even available yet?
I just looked at the 2000 new Sierra on KBB.com, and compared comparable Sierra vs Ram, set up for heavy duty 4WD, Camper, towing, and gadgets. Comparing totally loaded (at least for my likes) New 2000 2500 HD GMC Sierra (4WD, auto, extended cab long bed) to 1999 2500 Dodge Ram (Cummins, 4WD, auto, quad cab).
The GMC came to a $30,179 dealer invoice - loaded (V8, 6.0 liters, 300 HP, 355 lbs torque, (??) mpg, 8,600-lb GVWR). (leather not available)
VS
The Dodge dealer invoice is $31,551 - loaded (215 HP, 420 lbs torque, +20 mpg, 8,800-lbs GVWR, no leather) - (I do not want to bother with the 5.9 liter gas engine).
I know there are better comparisons out there (Powerstroke vs Cummins, 5.9 liter gas Dodge vs 6.0 liter GM vs whatever Ford, etc.) but these are currently my favorite options.
-Greg
Sure, the US is the greatest country, offers the greatest variety, and it surely has the greatest places to use our trucks. But the reason the US is so great is that people are not satisfied with the status quo (or even current innovations, for that matter). People exercising capitalism and the First Ammendment (backed up by the Second Ammendment, but I don't need to go there). We [non-permissible content removed] about what is not offered. We demand higher quality, more options, and better dependability. Designers and producers do listen, make changes, and we buy what we want at the best price possible.
If a company does not respond, they die (or at least slump). However, if we do not identify what is missing by complaining, lower sales may not provide enough information to help the manufacturers rapidly make the changes. I can't believe you are complaining about a forum like this because we complain about missing options or poor quality, identifying what more we want more from each manufacturer.
And the ultimate stupidity is "And if the manufactures listened to us totally, we could not afford the damn things." If you can't afford all the options I want on my truck, buy the base model! Oh yeah, maybe you haven't heard of the base model, considering that the main reason why pickup sales are so up is that they are finally competing with cars (with all the gadgets and comfort options that make auto travel pleasant) - Base models do not sell.
Like Dana Carvey as Grandpa on Saturday Night Live -- go out and enjoy your standard cab pickup with vinyl interior, metal dash, and rock-hard springs -- "And we liked it that way!!"
Sincerely,
An Ungrateful Capitalist
P.S.: Oh yeah, anyone have any feedback on my last post about New Sierra 2500 HD & Ram Cummins?
Avid Outdoorsmen Mike
It is actually easier to put my kid in th back of my dodge than it was any other vehicle I have owned. You do not have to bend over and hurt your back. everything is at chest level.
I have a 99 black, quad 4x4 sport. I love it. It is great on the highway, and even better off road.
you can actually fit six comfortably. It's so damn wide. I have about 13k miles and have had no problems at all. milege gets better everyday.
All shined up it looks great, as well. I will say again chevy blew it with this 3 door non-sense.
Three doors Suck! four doors Rule.
Quick question 99 chevy owners (I am not bashing, honest!) with the new disk brakes in the rear, I would have thought the stopping distance would be much better.
When I read the comparision in Motor Trend recently, the reported the chevy stopping distance from 60 mph - 0 to be 148 ft. The Dodge stopped in 143 feet. Why isn't the distance much greater. Is the hipe about rear disk brakes just non-sense or am I just missing something. (I really want to know, I am not bashing)
gwmoore - sorry can't help - but some one must know the answers
Mike - no intention of trying to talk you out of the Dodge (but I am a Dodge guy). I think you will love the ease of access as trucklover says, and you won't have to compromise on anything else.
Read some sports or racing magazines and you'll learn about brake technology. See how many sports cars use drum brakes? = 0. Why? because every manufacturer knows disk are better. Why do some less expensive cars use drum? I would guess to save money, and the attitude of the manufacturer that the typical buyer of this car won't care or know about brakes.
Oh and when you read any performance comparisions of vehicles, ask how scientific are these people? They're selling magazines, not being scientists. Changing tire sizes/brands/setting the pressure right makes a difference.
Oh by the way ... I don't see too many recruits from the "Ford vs. Dodge" topic that you were trying to get. Is everyone out playing with the 4th door? if you're that lazy or likely to hurt your back, you better get Richard Simmons "Working out with the Oldies". You'll be happy with that match with Dodge's oldies' technology.
Kernick,
I agree with what you said about brakes. Disk brakes are obviously superior. Sure, drums might be less expensive to make, but I wonder how much it costs to have different lines and tooling equipment in the factory for BOTH types of brakes. It seems like the higher efficiency of only making disks would offset much of the added cost. Maybe eliminating the drums and making just disks would still cost an additional couple hundred dollars per vehicle. Seems like a small drop in the bucket to me. However, this way, they probably have a higher profit margin. You just have to hope someone comes in and makes 4-wheel disks standard to put pressure on the other manufacturers, a la GM.
As for your last point, I'm not sure, but it sounded like you were making fun of us for demanding the fourth door. (I'm kinda getting tired of people joining this forum and then complaining that we are complaining) To me, its similar to disk vs drum brakes. I think the reason GM isn't offering the 4th door is like you said about brakes, "I would guess to save money, and the attitude of the manufacturer that the typical buyer of this car won't care or know about brakes" (or the 4th door in this case). Well, we obviously do know and care about the 4th door. And like Avid Outdoorsman Mike, I'm trying to decide between the Sierra and Ram 2500s. I see through GM's idea that they can sell the first model year truck without the more costly 4th door, just because people want it so badly they will put up with the deficiency. Well, I hope people will smarten up, wait to buy, and make GM have to sit on a big inventory of 3-doors.
There is no way that three doors can be 'better' than four doors, cheaper yes, better no. I really can't see any argument on this point - personally you may or may not need the doors, but having them can't be bad. Case in point - Dakota. I am a Dodge man through and through, and I drive a Dakota. Are two doors enough for me, yes, is it ridiculous to make a club cab with just two doors, yes.
As usual this topic is..
"Clowns(Ford)to the left of me...Jokers(Dodge)to the right...here I am...Stuck In the Middle with you..." - Bob Dylan
- Tim
You end up stuck in the middle with Tim - geez I'm on good for today, sorry Tim my man.
More importantly
WILL SOMEONE PLEASE HELP OUT GWMOORE - THIS POOR MAN WANTS TO BUY A TRUCK HERE
Thank you
Lemme take the boxing gloves off here...even willing to set down the brass knuckles.
I own a Chevy 2000 2500 HD and can tell you it is one nice truck. Lot's of power in the entire spectrum. Great handling and braking. Massive brakes and exhaust..as well as axles. It can ride a little rough when empty...but hey..it's a 3/4! The 2500's have none of the problems that the 1/2 5.3's do...as farr as I know. Be sure to get the 4:10.
The dodge is a good truck as well. To compare the cummins to the gas 6.0 is not really even...but I'd rather have the 6.0 than the 6.5 diesel. They will have some new bigger Vortec V-8's and a couple new disels soon. Gas V-8's in Dodge are worthless....well almost. If you get a 3/4 Dodge...get the diesel....and ONLY the diesel.
As for the 4th door.....Like everything else...the 3/4 will follow the 1/2 some time after. But who knows??..maybe they might surprise us?
OK
Gloves back on...with Brass Knuckles under.
I AM stuck in the middle!....I state facts in the past...and then be stuck in the middle of a debate...with Clowns and Jokers..LOL!
- Tim
I know that is just asking for a comment on Chrsyler engines, but it really is one nice engine.
I do have some sympathy with the state facts then take the flak point of view, I try and stick to facts too, but to follow your argument that would put me with Chevy.
AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with you to a certain degree about the Dodge gas engines. I have a Dakota with the 318 and it annoys me that my buddies Chevy 350s get better mileage than me, even though my truck is smaller and they have more power. I really like my truck and am happy with the power, and it has been dependable. But I am tired of borrowing my dad's Cummins when I need to use a real truck. My preference is the Cummins engine, but I really like the GMs interior (back seat in particular), the 6.0-liter, and the new frame (and I think the suspension). That's where my comparison of the Cummins to the 6.0-liter comes from.
Tim, how's the 2500 loaded down. I know it is a real truck, and actually like a little of the stiffness (as long as it's not a ball-breaker like my old '89 dodge). If the new GM 2500 HD is like the 1500 at all, it does not look like it has anywhere near the wheel travel that the Dodge 2500 has, and I was wondering what a load like a big camper does to it.
Your new friend - Greg
Anyway here's my perspective on the door and Dodge issue. One of the main threads here has been that Dodge is superior because it has a 4th door. In my perspective that 4th door is one of a hundred things to look at, not the MAIN thing. Would I pay or wait for a 3rd door on an extended cab - definitely yes! THAT solves the main problem of getting in the back. No sliding seats, pulling things over the front, etc. Walking around the truck isn't a big deal. Now there'll be a few of you who point out that you get tools out every 1/2 hour, and thus it is a real advantage. For most people though it's not a big deal.
If you want to know the main reason I picked a Chevy over a Dodge, Ford, or Tundra, it's because of the power and economy of the 5.3L engine, the biggest backseat (I'd rather people being comfortable than being able to get in either side), and especially the Autotrack 4WD.
#2) Ford #3) Toyota #4) Dodge.
Chevy does lack the door...no doubt about it. But it is much more superior in many ways. Dodge may still be just as good to a point where the average Joe may never even notice any difference between the two. Looks are purely each individual taste..and can't be compared for anything else but that....Individual taste.
I have new respect?....I've always said you are all welcome for a beer and stogie...just let me tell the facts...and live with them!
How's the 2500 loaded down?...Dunno yet. I've been kinda slacking on a bedliner. I've got one coming tuesday and need a few pallets of bricks..so we shall see. The 2500 with Firm Ride is one stiff [non-permissible content removed]...so I'd imagine a camper in the back would be just fine. It's got tons of power on the highway...so no problem for that issue when loaded and needing power to get up that hill. The tow switch does more than just lock out overdrive..it totally reprograms the tranny. Even when dry..you can tell the massive agression it puts into the shifting pattern.
Gas mileage?..about 13 max when dry...when driving like me that is..But I quench my thirst with gasoline....as I've done all my life. Oh well.
www.teleweb.net/mgdvhman/GimmeFuelGimmeFire.wav
Good Luck
- Tim
Now, I agree that there are many more important considerations. I'm with Tim, GM's gas engines are tops (although I prefer the Cummins and probably the Powerstroke). 4-wheel disc brakes & ABS. . . . 4-wheel drive systems and suspensions. These are definitely more important considerations than doors. However, those differences are more based on engineering and innovation, and don't appear to be a slap in the buyers' faces quite like the 4th door, at least not to me.
Tim - how long have you had your 2000 Silverado 2500. Were the dealers very flexible, or is there too much demand? Did you have to deal with the brake recall? or is that just on the 1500? Did they have the windshield fixed, or does it make that wierd sound at highway speeds? Is the main difference between the 2500 and the 2500 HD the "Firm Ride"? Geez, I feel like your little buddy now. It seems that most of the posts are related to the 1/2 trucks, its nice to get some information on the heavier trucks.
In the end, what it all came down to for me was that I didn't need what the Cummins/Ram offered in abundance. I really didn't even need what the 6.0L 2500 offered, so I opted for practicality and function by getting a mid-level LS trim 1/2 ton and fuel efficient 5.3L V8. No regrets. Moral? Don't buy less than you need, but anything more is a waste, so choose carefully, and decide in advance what you want to tow, or haul, and how often. Pulling a camper on the holidays? Gas engine can be fine. Pulling a horse trailer and tack, or big 5th wheel on a regular basis, or heavy commercial use? You might want a diesel.
For all that care they are offering 1k rebate on selected (what ever the hell that means) 99 silverados now.
The 4th door issue is not a small issue when you have kids or often carry freinds around. The main reason that I walked away from chevy was the door.
I actually sat down, got the deal and almost signed the papers. But I couldn't do it. I new that evertime I needed to get my kids, or the groceries, or my tools, or let my brother out, I would get pissed off.
I new the suttle differences in performance and braking but they are not as important to me because they are so suttle. I would never notice those suttle differences in daily driving, but I would notice not having a driver side 4th door everyday when I got out of the truck and had to get my breifcase out of the back.
I have to admit if chevy had offered a 4th door I might be sitting with old Timmy Pooh drinking a beer bashing ford. AAAHHHAA!!!! Scarrrry
You notice I did not say bashing Dodge!!!!!!!!
RAM RULESSSS!!!! HAHAAHAHAAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the brake leason all.
Tim mentioned that Chevy had a lot of advantages in engineering over Dodge, and in many respects he is right. He also said that many of these changes wouldn't be noticed by average drivers - again he is right (Oh God what am I saying!!!!)
We all have different levels of expertise and knowledge when it comes to trucks - but we share one thing - a love for them. Most buyers don't have the same level of interest in many of the things we discuss - just look at the post in the 'Why do you drive a pickup' topic recently from the guy who bought a Ranger because his wife thought it looked "kinda cute".
Anyway to get to the point, people notice doors - therefore it is a big deal. By contrast people don't always understand the subtleties between various 4wd systems, or suspensions. Most people look at horsepower, less so at torque (unless they tow).
marcord - power for power's sake? Hey I'm a guy ain't I - the faster I can get to that next gas station the better!!!
Just another .02 from me.
To start with, I live in the Great Northwest High Desert . . . We have MOUNTAINS here. Last weekend I was driving my truck on a road at 9,350 feet. And it seems you have to climb something to go anywhere here.
My experience with 1/2-tons is that they have borderline brakes and suspension for my needs. Although I now have a '97 Dakota (yes, smaller than a 1/2-ton), but it has 1/2-ton duty frame, components, and engine (318") on a smaller body --- it holds up great. But when I go back to a real-size truck, I want to have the heavier brakes, suspension, steering, and engine on the 3/4-ton.
And I am going along with Tim (again, I can't believe it), the 3/4-ton trucks I have been in lately have just as good or better ride than the 1/2-ton trucks. So, for a small sum more money, I would much prefer the heavier duty truck that should do the job better and hold up longer.
Fuel efficiency, shmuel shmneissciency! Give me power! Sure efficiency is important. It really gets me that my buddies' Chevys with their 350s get about 5 mpg better than I do, and they have bigger trucks and more towing power. But efficiency is not why we are buying pickups, and 2-3 miles per gallon is a mute point. You can talk to me about 5-10 mpg difference (hence, the Cummins). Range is more important to me. When I go bird hunting in the desert up here, there are huge areas with no services, so fuel efficiency and a big fuel tank are important. But I can always, and do, carry gas cans.
Tim, I checked out some of your posts on other forums and got some of my answers. I also checked the forums for the Silverado/Sierra 1500s. It sounds like the 2500 is the only way to go.
Comparing the Sierra 6.0 and the Ram Cummins is legitimate because I consider them the best options for my needs in a 3/4-ton truck, one gas and one diesel. I think the Sierra is going to be the best truck (not by much). I know the Cummins is the best engine (although the 6.0 sounds like it should be great). I can save some money with the Sierra (innitial investment & oil changes), and the 6.0 should be dependable and last a long time. One thing that makes me nervous about the Sierra is all the problems the '99 Silverado/Sierra 1500s have had. I just hope the problems will not make their way into the 2500s. And the lack of that damn 4th door . . .
gwmoore, you are right about the problems in the '99s, but don't forget that was year one for the model. If there aren't problems, there probably isn't enough new stuff on the truck.
Course Dodge still rules.........
I frequently tow a heavy double ATV trailer, and when I do, it is commonly on very rough ranch roads. I will also load the truck down with a camper and tow boats or the ATVs with the camper. In my opinion, that's too much for a 1/2-ton in the long run, especially with the mountains I climb.
Pretty soon I am going to suggest that you and Tim get a room if you keep agreeing with him. And now you are actually giving GM a break. "Dogs living with Cats!"
Really, I do understand that first year snaffus do occur, but I have seen enough quality issues with GM in the new Sierra/Silverado and my buddies '97 & '98 1/2-tons to make me a little careful. By the way, the only first-year problem I had with my '97 Dakota was a simple fan clutch. But my dealer experience fixing that little problem has me to the point that I would rather pay a real mechanic to fix a warranteed problem than to go back to a dealer service department ever again.
Chevy sucks! Chevy Sucks! Chevy Sucks! Chevy sucks! Chevy ssssuuuuuccccckkkkkkkssssss!!!!!!!
Ok! I feel better! .....No.........
RAM RULES! RAM RULES! RAM RULES! RAM RULES!
RAM RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok! NOW I really feel better... ;o)
IF GM is planning to sell us the 3 door new model...and then a 4 door right after..who's the fool here? I already planned on buying a new one 2 years from now...even before I knew 4 doors was coming. I believe any one who really wants it...like Rich...is waiting.
GW,
had it a month now. Ordered it in march...order was cancelled...got a 2000 instead. Never really considered a 3/4 until I compared with a Z71....I was changed right then and there. There was high demand..and no flexibility...due to the fact that GM discount is one price...period. Shortly after I drove a few...they dried up here. rarely see one for sale or on the road for that matter. Who cares..i got mine! 2500's don;t have the brake recall..or any problems that I know of. The windshield noise is usually a bug guard. The 4WD 6.0 is the 8600 GVW HD....2WD 5.3 is the 7200 GVW LD.....Firm ride is the 36mm shocks instead of 32mm.
Is it more than I need??...maybe...maybe not. I've never had anything smaller than a 350..and never went past 16MPG.....so why start now?? Marcord is right on with his theory as why I have one. To me...a door is a piss poor excuse to not buy the more superior truck...(the marketing must work for some!!) The 2 most common quetions I get are...4 door and Z71....so you tell me if marketing works for most of the American Dolts?
The suspension/mechanical/reliability/safety/etc..is what should be important....but the only thing most of the public can tell you is.....Doors and maybe HP. hell...I bet you 98% of the people that own Z71's have no idea what it is! I bet ya it sounds like this..."it means 4WD"..."it's the off road package"...OK..what's in it?....."duhhhhhhhhh.....Off road stuff" "I drove in 2" of snow last year!!...helped me out big time"..."glad i got it"...
Marketing works big time. We are a small...SUPER small group that go this farr into the details of our trucks. Probably all 20 of us in the world are all here!
So let the rest of them talk about doors....I got more important stuff to consider....Thank God we don't buy because Our wives say it was "cute". Excuse me for a minute....I have to barf!
..(well..maybe Dodge owners buy them for that reason?)
...and everybody seems to be agreeing with me now...see...you guys finally have woke up and smelled the coffee! I always knew I was right!
LOL
- Tim
I do have more to say about the doors, but I promised not to. Gotta keep my word.
The windshield noise on the new GM 1500s was faulty mounting on both sides (particularly on the right side). I'm not sure, it might have only been on the GMC, but that does not seem right. Somehow the mounting rubber flapped and/or air funneled under the glass. Regardless, my boss took his back into the dealer about 3 times before they fixed it. Looking at the 1500 forums, it sounds like a ton, if not all, of the new GMC 1500 trucks had the problem.
Anyway, I'm glad to hear GM did a better job on the 2500 (no brake recalls, etc.). I get sick and tired of Toyota lovers having ammunitition for their argument that Toyota has so much better quality than the Americans (which, in general, they do). Well, it's also nice to be able to say America is the only game in town when you talk about MANLY trucks (>1/2-tons). You have definitely helped me decide that the 2500 is the way to go if I do the GM route. I sure like that Cummins and my experience with the Ram 2500, though.
The doors due matter to some buyers. I'm one of them since my personal-98 Ford has three and I wish I had four doors. Being a roofing contractor, I'm also interested in the new crew-cabs coming soon from Ford--holds workers better.
Doors? Mattered to buyers of minivans and the Windstar suffered without it.
As I have said in other topics: Looks matter to most personal buyers. To me? No because I buy trucks for work but to most it does. Most Ford-haters bring up the "swoopy" lines or "taurus-like" looks. When Dodge was introduced in 94--people went nuts because of the way it LOOKED. Not function or reliability came to play here. I have always bought trucks for function, versatility, reliabilty, and working factors. If it looked good as well then it was merely a bonus.
Now Tim, you're right, why buy a lesser truck because of a missing door. In my personal choice, I went with a superior truck despite the fourth door or looks: Ford.
Now the wrath of Tim will begin.... LOL!
You might want to consider an auto tranny instead of a manual shifter for towing.
with the 3rd door
for me it doesnt matter if i had a 4th or not because if i need to get to the back seat, my drivers seat slides wayyy up and i can more or less reach or if i have to craw to get whatever i need
i agree with Tim, doors are stupid to base a persons decission on, when theres more important issues like safety, and POWER(hehe, had to throw that one in)
if a person wants a 1/2 get a chevy
You got more to say about doors? Spit it out!
You asked about how she does loaded down....well I found out. I don't get the liner until Tuesday..but the wife was bothering me something fierce to go get her dads 1 ton and get some brick pavers. I said screw it...and threw a sheet of plywood in the back and walah!!...a bedliner!
I got two pallets of pavers (about 2900 lbs. each)..one at a time. It brought the rear down about almost just level...looked real good. Put it into haul/tow mode....and pulled out into traffic. It pulled very well..and the suspension was still very stiff....and in control. Aside from the engine being noticably higher RPM's....it hardly showed much difference than when dry. Book says payload is 3115...but I've had almost that much in my half ton before. (I was lighting up the tree tops...but it worked!) All and all..it hauled very good. Had no vibration or shudder that some have when loaded down.
Don't worry about what the Rice fans have to say...I mean really...do you honestly think Toiletta is even any where near the same rank as Chevrolet or Ford?
Roc,
I know the door matters to alot of people...just not me. Marketing brain washes people big time. The same people that I've known for years..that have gotten along just fine with their Minivan/truck with 2 or 3 doors....Can't possibly live another second on this planet without the 4th door now. It's the only thing they can talk about. I'm sure there are things that I feel are important....that others feel is way stupid...so be it. The wrath is being kept under control here...I mean how can i argue with you Roc?...A fellow hunter and beer drinker?
Lethal,
When I get my next one in a couple years...I'm sure I will buy the 4th door....just to have a door on the drivers side..where it should be. When the seat is all the way forward...it's still just a hair bit tight sometimes to reach back there. Oh well..walk around to the other side. Fine by me for now. And the superduty has only looks for superiority. It's GVW is less than the 3/4 Chevy...if I'm thinking straight tonight? (this damn Codeine in this medicine hits ya hard!) If anyone wants to wait for 4 doors...that's fine...I chose not to...as it's just not an issue for me.
- Tim
Tim, I haven't seen the 3/4-ton new model up close yet. Does it have more wheel travel? Sit a little higher? Sounds like it must if loaded down, it just comes to level. The 1500s already look pretty level unloaded.
Yes it's higher than a 1/2...how much??..dunno. I'd say it sits about the same as a 1/2 Dodge?...but what do I know?
Whhel travel?.....hmmmm...beats the %^&*$# out of me.
The wrath is always available at will....just don't see any need for it here. I mean..I have already wrathed this bunch!
- Tim