bpeebles, I ordered the 4.7 with auto. The dealer did not mention anything about the lsd being added automatically. Thanks for the info on the JGC and the new 4.7L engine, I'll read up on it.
Could anyone describe the all wheel drive option on the Dakota 4x4, with a 4.7 engine? Is it the Jeep Quadra trac (II)? The tiny picture in the brochure seems to show a 2 options for the hi position. Is this right?
I've been running the crap out of mine (4.7 / 4 spd auto / 3.55 / NON ltd slip) with about 4,500 miles on the odo. No squeaks, rattles, buzzing, pinging (88 octane), weird dash noises, leaks, foaming, etc. My average commute speed is above 80 mph - if there's any advantage to mine it might be ambient air temp. It's about 60 to 70 during my daily "usage" periods.
Just an update. I took the truck in for the leak I thought was happening, and the dealer couldn't find anything. He said everything was dry. Good news for me. Everything is running great. I put one of those Pace Edwards roll top covers on - it works and looks real good. The wife wanted to take it to work today. As hard as I tried, I couldn't say yes. If I'm going to be on the road, I want to be in the Dakota!
I've got a 99 Dakota Club Cab 4x4. I love this truck. It's perfect for my needs, but...there's always a but...
A few months ago I had to take it in for a faulty right turn signal. They fixed it at that dealership that day. No biggie.
Today I had to have it towed into a dealership -- it got stuck in the snow, stalled out several times, and then just wouldn't start. Dealership says that it's a faulty crank sensor.
I'm starting to get a little bit worried -- I need the truck to be dependable, but it's less than a year old and already has more than one failure.
The AC compressor is on in the following two CASES: whenever the switch is on AC or DEFROSTER, no matter the combination. If it includes AC or DEFROSTER that means the Compressor is engaged. BTW most cars are like this I know my Ford is anyway. Hey how about more info on that roll-away tonneau cover??????
metallian: I second natdmann's request. Where did you get that roll-cover for the Dakota? Is it for the new shortbed? is it aluminum? Does it lock effectively in the closed position and how much of the bed does it cover up when rolled all the way back? Is it over the rails? thanks in advance.
Is anyone aware of an address or Phone # to Protecta? I have searched the net and can not locate the Protecta company which manufactures the bedliner mats. I want the Protecta Heavy heavyweight Bedmat for the Dakota QuadCab and have been unable to determine if there is one even made yet. I do not want the standard Protecta bedmat.
mwolak - I had the same question, and was told in an Edmunds forum and by the dealer that they are not the same. The Quad has the same full time four wheel drive, 4 hi, and 4 lo selections as the Jeep, but it's 'beefier' (according to the dealer) than the jeep unit 'because it was built for a truck'. The service tech at the dealer also told me the full time selection is not "open" like a car differential and will adjust power based on wheel slippage. 4 hi and 4 lo work the same as part time 4 wheel drive systems - you shouldn't be in 4 hi on dry pavement and 4 lo is restricted to true off road, stuck up to the door handles, creepin' up the side of a rock wall stuff.
The dealer asked why I wanted full time 4 wheel drive, and I explained that there are many times in Cleveland where I drop my Suburban in 4 hi and feel the transfer case bind around corners and in parking lots. There's a lot of days up here where the roads are plowed and salted, but traction still sucks. I went back and forth because the trade off is really bad gas mileage. The dealer joked that I might as well order the 3.92, because it wasn't going to make much difference in mileage anyway (I took him up on his offer).
Anyway - hope this helps.
PS - ordered my 4X4 11/23 and it was still on restriction as of Monday. Just can't put myself up to cancelling though. Too good a value - nothing else can do everything this vehicle can.
PSS - Last week I think someone posted here or in another Edmunds forum about a yellowish fluid drip in the middle of their Quad. It sounded like rear end lube to me. A little checking on the NHTSA site turned up a service bulletin on Dakota rear ends venting rear end fluid through the vent tube on the differential. NHTSA is a great site.
The same thing is happening to me in this forum that happens while driving around. Everybody wants to talk about my cover, not my brand new salt covered truck. I should be getting a commission on the number of covers I have sold. There aren't many places that carry it, but it gaining in popularity. I had to go to a conversion van outfitter. It secures the bed, is virtually water tight, and doen't take up much bed space when rolled back. Go to: http://www.pace-edwards.com It'll tell you all about it and find a dealer closest to you. The only trouble I have had is that the lock freezes up on me. I just keep deicer in the glovebox. Could someone do me a favor? I'm not good at finding things on the internet. Where are some other dakota discussions happening? Even if they are not as good as this one, I'd like to check them out. Thanks.
the Dakota Full-Time 4WD xfer case has 4 positions:
4-LO, NEUTRAL, 4WD, 4WD LOCK.
It has NO 2WD position, unlike the Jeep Selec-Trac. The positions are as follows:
4-LO: "traditional" part-time 4WD lo-range, LOCKED differential NEUTRAL 4WD: full-time 4WD, both axles driven thru an OPEN differential, 48/52 front/rear torque split.
4WD Lock: "traditional" part-time 4WD hi-range, both axles driven thru a LOCKED differential
Therefore, the Dakota full-time xfer is essentially the same as the Jeep Selec-Trac xfer case, but WITHOUT a 2WD position. The Jeep Quadra- Trac xfer case is an entirely different beastie...
Did you order yours with the full time x-case then? You mentioned that it was not an OPEN differential system and that it will adjust according to wheel slippage. Everytime someone writes something about the full time system all the stories contradict eachother. Some say it is an open differntial, others say it is not.
I am totally confused, as i am expecting to buy a quad in the summer and was opting for the full time case. My parents have it on their G J (i know its quadratrac) and its very useful.
I spoke with several dealers today to get clarification on the full time 4wd option and how exactly it works. Here's what all three told me.
The transfer case is not like the Jeep QuadraTrac, Subaru, or other 'all wheel' drive systems. I stated that it was similar to the QuadraTrac in a prior post, which wasn't accurate. It doesn't have clutches or viscous couplings, so it doesn't adjust the power from the 'wheels that grip to the wheels that slip'.
It's also not a true open differential like a car without limited slip. There is always power going to the rear end. The simple example one service tech gave had the truck parked with the front wheels on ice and the rear on dry pavement. If the transfer case was 'open', the truck couldn't pull off the ice because all the power would go to the front wheels. If the transfer case where truly 'open', you could get out of the truck and watch the front wheels turn (I used to push myself out of snow drifts doing this in an old Camaro I had - then I had to run like Haiti's to catch up to it once it started moving). The Dakota with full time 4wd will move forward, however, because there is always power to the rear wheels. The only way the tech said that no power would go to the rear would be to drop the driveshaft.
They all said that the differential in the transfer case only really affects the front axle, allowing the front axle to slip in relation to the rear. They also all agreed that traction, particularly on marginal surfaces, is better than 2 wd alone. If the surface is really bad, 4 hi is still the way to go.
I think I got the Subaru add backwards - I should of said 'from the wheels that slip to the wheels that grip'. Now that I've totally confused everyone....
metallian - thanks for the tip on the pace-edwards roll-top. Went to their website and it looks pretty cool. My only concern is how much of the bed on the quad cab (which already shorter) it cuts off. Also, I wanted to get a bedliner that sits over the rail, but that doesn't look feasible with the pace-edwards system. Or is it?
Is the locking mechanism on that cover reliable and durable? I had a Ford Ranger and the lock on the hydraulic cover was terrible - kept breaking and was so easy to get into. I assume you checked out other roll-covers, right. This is the best one on the market?
What about snow and ice on the rolltop? does it retract and all the snow and ice go in the rolltop box that it retracts into? I know there are drainage holes so water and melted snow and ice can run out of the box through a small hose, through the pickup box, and onto the ground. But what if the snow and ice does not melt? will it build up inside the rolltop box to a degree that the rolltop will not retract?
(balser)What was the truck 'pulling' as they did this demo for you? Was it on a flat surface?
I am questioning their explanation of the rear driveshaft being always driven and the front driveshaft being somehow separated from that. I have reviewed the service manual for the NV242 xfer case and find no 'magic' device within it that could accomplish this feat. I find only an open differential within the NV242. A differential needs TWO 'outputs' to accomplish the ability to differentiate between the torque split. The front/rear driveshafts are the only two shafts coming out of the NV242.
The only ways I know of to produce what you describe is to use a viscous coupling on one driveshaft (Subaru) or some complicated electronics coupled with the ABS wheel sensors(Porsche). Neither of which are found on a Dakota. (But both better than the NV242 FULL TIME 4WD)
I asked specifically if the transfer case was open and all three said it was not. Two of the three said the Dakota with the full time transfer case is basically a rear wheel drive vehicle with front wheel drive added. Whatever the heck that means. All three were very specific that all the power would not go to the front axle if the front tires broke loose. They didn't say exactly how this was accomplished, and I didn't ask. One of the techs eluded to a chain in the transfer case, but how this could let the front driveline slip as needed in relation to the rear I haven't a clue.
The ice/dry pavement example I was given was a hypothetical, it wasn't actually demonstrated. I understand what you're saying, but the fact that all three gave me consistent answers gave me more confidence that the full time transfer case will accomplish what I want. I've got it ordered, thought about dropping it after all the discussion about an open transfer case (which I understand thoroughly from my drag racing days - the concepts behind the definition of an open transfer case and open axle differential are the same), but decided to keep it after all three service technicians (not sales people) convinced me that traction on marginal surfaces was better with the full time transfer case than 2 wheel drive alone.
I still contend that the NV242 xfer case has an open differential in the "Full-Time" position. However, I do agree that traction on MARGINAL surfaces IS better with the full-time xfer case than with 2WD alone. I presently have a Jeep with the Selec-Trac xfer case that has the open diff in the full-time position. It DOES help in MARGINAL situations. True, if I am in full-time 4WD and the right rear wheel (for example) loses traction, it begins to spin and power is transferred to the slipping axle. HOWEVER, it does not seem to me to be an instantaneous xfer. It seems to me that even though the right rear starts to spin, the left front maintains traction long enough to pull me out before the right rear loses traction completely and gets all the power transferred to it. Of course, this is in MARGINAL situations, where traction is low, but not nonexistent. For really bad situations, lock the differential. It took me awhile to figure this out, but now that I understand how my vehicle behaves in full-time, I find it to be a very useful position, as it can be used when road surfaces alternate from wet to dry to wet with no warning. Just remember the limitations of it.
My uncle has had the Pace Edwards roll top for three years. He has had no problems with ice build up in the canister where it will not retract properly. You do have to clear some of the snow off of it after a heavy fall. The locking mechanism has been reliable for him so far. The only problems he has had: 1) He eventually had to put small hose clamps on the drainage tubes 2) He has to use deicer on the lock once in a while As far as the quad cab, I would say you would lose about a foot of workable space, maybe too much for an already short box. I don't know the answer for compatability with over the rail bedliners, but from initial reaction, it doesn't seem like it would work.
I have a problem when I start my 99 Dakota V6, Sometimes the engine makes a racket (kindof like a belt slipping, but my fanbelt is tight, so I don't think that is the problem) until it warms up, then the noise goes away.
I think I have tracked down the noise and it is the engine cooling fan. (Once it disengages after initial starting, I don't think the fan clutch is releasing all the way) But every time I take it to the dealership, the noise will not present itself, so they won't even look at it.
So, I checked Alldata to see if there were any TSB's relating to this, and I found 2 that look like they might help me diagnose my problem
TSB Number Title 07-05-98 Engine cooling fan noise 07-09-98 Viscous Fan Drive Service
Does anybody here have access to the actual writeups on these TSB's? I would like to be able to go to the dealership with the TSB writups in hand so they can see exactly what the problem is and fix it. (no more of the "we can't create it, so you must be imagining it crap)
Try topic number 1496, it is "any questions for a dodge tech". This fellow seems to have a lot of experience and knowledge. Perhaps he can be of help. Copy your query and post it in topic 1496. Hope this helps.
I am wondering what kind of miles per gallon folks are getting with late model (98, 99, 00)Dakota 2WD, auto trans, 3.55 rear; inital mpg, plus did it improve when you hit 5K and 10K miles? When I look to buy my truck, I want to know now if I am looking at a gas hog, or if it will offer respectable mileage once it is broken in. Also, are you happy with your purchase, or do you now wish you bought a different brand?
My '00 Quad / 4.7 / 4-auto / 2wd /3.55 / no lsd, is at about 5,000 now. 1st five tanks got 13 city / 15 hwy. (up to about 1,000 miles) - engine was very tight. 6th thru 10th (up to about 3,000 miles) got 16.5 (overall ave.) - engine noticeably 'loosening.' 11th thru current am getting about 15 city / 19 PURE HWY (tested two tanks on I-20 flat terrain) A 75 mph - engine purring like a - well, actually it's dead silent / can't tell it's running half the time. With a KN air filter, Redline 10W30 Synthetic & a cat-back exhaust, running Chevron & Texaco 89 Oct. fuel, should see 20-21 on hwy... (only waiting on my exhaust). We'll see... If not, I will be looking to drop in a Dodge (reg. & ClubCab Dakota RPO) 3.21 rear-end gear set. Might do that anyway since towing much lighter stuff now (about 1,000# once a month) + acceleration with this truck is a JOKE (on just about everybody else). ;->
I drive several Porsches a lot, and believe me, this truck is fast by anyone's standard. It really could use a little mileage boost at the expense of some acceleration in my opinion. Although I've been told by my (local oil business) compadres that my mileage figures are very good compared to theirs (trucks / SUVs), so I won't harp too much!
It handles like a dream and rides like a well sprung sports sedan. FYI - I've been hearing that the 3.9's are similar to the 4.7 in mileage. Some folks think that their acceleration is fine with the V-6. Also, heard one guy give a slightly lower 'figure' than mine with his 5.9 V-8 (Club cab); he quoted me (and was very happy) a figure of 15.5 for a tank from El Paso to Midland - on I-20. :-(
I drove everything available in a mid to large truck for fifteen hundred miles - nearly bought the Tundra: fabulous truck, great local dealer, but very high price + it was a little too 'tall' to get in / out of the 30+ times a day that I have to check various wells & tank batteries in the field. Happy with it? You betcha. Buy another one? In a heartbeat (if it gets a @!?# tan interior).
Problems? Two. 1st: gas cap (because I keep my spare key box next to it) made the MIL failure light come on, pushing it off of its 'seat.' Moved the spare - no more problem. 2nd: I can't keep my right foot still while I play with the little stereo 'thingies' under the steering wheel!
Final thought: though we're (just me) long winded, compare the intelligence level of the Dakota sites to any other brand / model on the web. Once you do, I believe you'll see hundreds of hours of research / comparing / test driving went into our decision(s) to spend $20+k on the new Dak Quad. And we're backing that up with HONEST opinions. Any further questions - e:mail me.
Interesting comment about the 'intelligence level' of many Dakota owners. Now that you mention it, I would have to agree. Many people admit to being partial to GM,FOMOCO...etc, but still put their hard-earned cash into the purchase of a Dakota after investigating all of the alternatives.
I hope everyone knows that I don't mean we're rocket scientists or anything - it's just that I have a strong 'gut feeling' that a lot of research & soul searching went on before our purchases; much more than I've seen or heard of in the other brand topics, and by people who seem to be very, well - 'literate.' My preference is Chevy. But we've got a Ram as well. And I've had wonderful Ford company trucks. And I nearly bought the Tundra. Go figure... Is it perceived / real value?
I have read a number of different comments about folks having the ticking noise. I do too. It's not too loud but, it is there nonetheless. The radio hides most of it, but I don't like knowing it's there - I wouldn't expect it to be.
I would like to hear from anyone those out there so we can compare notes.
Has anyone been to a dealer and had it fixed? Is anyone aware of a service bulletin?
(myersed) The consensus I have seen on the 'ticking noise' is that it is part of the OBD (On Board Diagnostic)system. Apparently there is a solenoid on the firewall that is part of the fuel-tank-venting diagnostic. This diagnostic seals off the only known vent of the fuel tank and then attempts to create a stable vacuum within the system. (A missing gas cap would cause a failure condition) This solenoid turns on/off quickly to perform this disgnostic and has been said to be the source of the noise.
My solenoid is triple rubber mounted. (Rubber standoffs holding the rubber-mounted bracket holding the rubber-mounted solenoid.)
According to the shop manual, this (And most other) diagnostic routines will not even run during cold weather.... Thus my Dak has not been able to run the diag. routine. I have never had any ticking since purchacing in November. (But have been listening for one)
I glad you noticed that general tone about looking for intelligent information rather than just "my truck is better than yours" stuff that I read on some forums. I've owned enough Nissans to easily succumb to brand loyalty and anti-Detroit sentiment. My Jeep Cherokee(just rolled 239,000 miles)has renewed my faith in American design. A few month ago, I almost bought a Nissan Crew, but it was just too small for what I needed. When I first saw the Dakota Quad, I thought that the Chrysler engineers had a good idea about what a lot of us were looking for. But still I had reservations. This forum has provided a great source for information (good and bad) about the Dakota. Information on the buying process has been great as well. It helped me decide to go ahead and order what I wanted and endure the wait. Themacguy, what aftermarket changes are you talking about to increase mileage. I've run mid-grade (89 octane) gas in the Cherokee 4.0 six, What are you all you using in the Quad with the 4.7? Can anyone tell me if there are any real advantages to the 89 over the 87 octane?
Ozark, If you get a chance to look at an Operator/owner manual it clearly states that the engine is designed for 87 and that you could potentially cause more harm by using a higher octane fuel. At least I belive that is where I read it.
I've seen many questions about whether or not to get the 4 wheel or stick with the standard 2 wheel ABS on either the 2WD or the 4WD Dakotas. I found a site (www.4x4abc.com/4WD101) that explains the problems with ABS on a 4WD vehicle while in 4WD mode and in off-road situations.
I currently have 4 wheel ABS on a Stratus and it works great on wet & snowy surfaces. 4 wheel ABS would no doubt work great on 2WD and 4WD versions of the Dakota as long as you're on the highway and not in 4WD mode (in the case of a 4WD equipped vehicle). Problems occur in other situations because: 1. When you lock into the 4WD mode, all of your wheels are now rotating in unison. ABS can't detect one wheel loosing traction and skidding versus the rotational speed of the other wheels. The ABS computer just can't tell whats going on anymore. 2. You're stopping distances will greatly increase with ABS in off-road situations. They say that when you're in loose dirt/sand/gravel and you put on a panic stop with "normal" brakes, a pile of dirt/sand/gravel quickly builds up in front of the non-rotating tire and this helps to stop you pretty quick. They say a wise person would disable the ABS by pulling the fuse out while you're off-road (not in 4WD mode). If the ABS is enabled (still not in 4WD mode) and you're into a panic stop, the ABS would allow each wheel to rotate to some degree as to not loose traction. Even this small amount of rotation would not allow that little pile of dirt/sand/gravel to build in front of each tire and therefore your stopping distance increases.
Although not specifically stated, it appears that if you're off-road and in 4WD mode the ABS is essentially disabled. Therefore, in a panic stop, your braking system would lock all 4 wheels, in either a 2 or 4 wheel ABS, you'd get the desired little piles of dirt/sand/gravel and would stop in the shortest possible distance.
Does any of this sound logical and apply to the Dakota?
OK, its been a while since I posted so here are a few things.
Performance / mpg et al. I love the performance of my truck, but I have to wonder whether companies, all of them, really spend money on fuel efficiency. Let me tell you what I mean.
I am currently looking for a commuter vehicle as I don't want to do 400 miles a week in my truck. It only needs to last a couple of years, because then I will be moving, and depreciation is a bigger factor than fuel economy. So with that in mind I test drove a 1987 Jaguar XJ12 on the weekend. This thing has a 5.3L V12, and weighs 4000#. It is also 13 years old. And yet, according to the computer on my prolonged test drive it averaged 34.1 km/h - over 21mph. Now I am not claiming that I found the top speed (155mph if you're interested), but it was a test drive so I wasn't being that careful on economy. If the Jag can do that, shouldn't a 2000 truck be able to do better than 16-18?
Incidentally, performance off the line was pretty similar to my Dak with the 3.92, although to be fair the Jag's gear ratios are pretty high.
4x4 and ABS - spike 50, I don't disagree with you in principle, but I think the report may overstate the on road 4x4 & ABS difficulties. I personally don't believe in 4 wheel ABS, I do a lot of off roading, and you are spot on. In my case I am often off road in snow and there the effect of the 'wedge' in front of the wheel is really marked.
4x4 isn't going to help you stop any quicker than 4x2, and it is a myth to think that ABS ever stops you quicker - that is possible under certain conditions, but the idea of ABS is to increase control under heavy braking, not to reduce stopping distances.
Restriction-Good News/Bad News (bookitty) Mon 07 Feb '00 (06:09 AM)
Spoke with Ernie a few moments ago, and he gave me the "good news" and the "not so good news". The "good news"; There are no more material restrictions on your order. The "not so good news"; Your dealer's allotment is on hold at this time. He further explained that as a large dealer that should soon clear. Also, once past build material restrictions, it would be unusual for the particular order to face that problem again, unless another component (or more) should suddenly appear difficult to obtain.
NOW READ THIS!!!
This is not a general lift of restrictions, and is applicable to this particular order. Not that it means my order only, but a group of orders that were processed within a certain time frame. Here's hoping.
I have a 2000 Dakota 4.7 with 800 miles on it. With the temperature of the vehicle at normal operating range and the heater temperature control set on maximum I am only getting warm air out of the heater. The blower fan is fine but the temperature of the air coming out of the heater is only warm. Someone on the Dakota Mailing List told me that others had reported this problem and the solution was a simple adjustment of the cable behind the temperature control. Anyone have experience with this type problem?
This is just general information as i received from an oil company representative (amoco). The higher the octane rating that gas has the higher its resistance to auto-ignition it is. A good example: "an engine with a 10:1 compression ratio running 87 octane fuel. When the piston compresses the air fuel mixture the heat created ignites the fuel prior to the spark plug sparking. Switching the fuel to 89 octane or 92 octane may eliminate this due to its resistance to pre-detonation (ignition)." The only real plus to running higher octane fuel, especially super-unleaded is the cleaner additives that are present. The only reason race cars run race fuel (98+ octane) is they normally run greater than 11:1 compression ratios or have a power adder such as a turbo-charger, or super charger. Most cars that are turbo or super charged have relatively low compression ratios 7.5:1 to 8.5:1, but the actual ratio increases as the air is forced into the cylinders by the power adder neccesatating higher octane fuel. So in short if your car does not require a higher octane fuel there is really no advantage to using it, with the exception of an occasional tank full to take advantage of the cleaners present that help clean your fuel system, valves, injectors, etc... Hope I didnt make it more confusing.
Natdmann, Interesting information about higher octane gas versus regular. My nephew, who has raced MOPAR all his life, and was, for awhile a bench mechanic, maintains that gasoline additives are as important these days as oil types were in the past for engine life. He has stated that using the same brand gas and higher octane grades has long term benefits for the fuel injectors and overall engine performance. I want to get the best possible life out of my new Dakota Quad 4.7 so I would be interested in hearing any feedback about this theory. Another thought, if gasoline wholesalers cheat on the 87 octane does the 89 octane provide insurance against substandard gas? How will higher octane gas damage the engine? I really don't want to spend an extra 10 cents a gallon but it would be a small price to pay if it had any real benefit.
Just wanted to pass along my experience with running with a cooler thermostat. Some time after purchasing a new 1984 Voyager, I replaced the stock 195 thermostat and ran with a 180 thermostat. Now, I don't know what the cooler thermostat temperature may have contributed to engine longevity, but at 300,000 miles, the engine was still getting over 5,000 miles on a quart of oil, the exact same as when it was new.
The process of compression igniting fuel described in you post, is how a diesel engine operates. There is no electric impulse (save for a glow plug chamber preheater). The diesel engine fires entirely by compression. That compression averages about 18:1. The injector pump atomizes the fuel by pumping it at high pressure and mixing it with air, increasing the volatility. Compression always creates heat. Internal combustion engines other than diesel have the fuel/air mixture ignited electrically.
Ozark - please click on my name and e:mail me offline - my response / ideas on the rearend/tire upgrades are pretty long / detailed... even more than this fuelish novel below...
As for the octane deal (I'm in the oil business aka 'upstream' & was, at one point, in the refining end aka 'downstream.' I also race all over the Southwest US.) here's some further info: the additives (added chemicals to the base stock) for your specific area (altitude & climate) are the MOST important part of the equation. The high 92 & superhigh, way up to 110+ octanes (and boosters by-the-can) are used to control the 'flame front' in the cylinders of high performance (usually high compression) engines (real important in racing karts). You & I are concerned more with pinging, knocking and longevity than 'high performance' octane content (I would think). Hence, the refiner's dilemma about using various additives for engine control and durability of engines - in tandem with today's advance on-board auto computers. Lots of additives for lots of situations... Here in W. TX. where more oil & natural gas is produced for our consumption than anywhere else in the US we have, essentially one large refiner about 40 miles from Midland. Some of that fuel is sold in a round-about-way back into Midland. It is absolutely terrible here! But it works great on the Gulf Coast. Why? The base stock has additives blended in for THAT market, not the one 2,000' higher (Midland) - next door to the refinery. Some more specifics: The Chevron (& recently) Texaco brand fuels (ALL three avail. pump octanes with a .30 / gal total spread) have our specific market additives nailed. They all work equally well. I use the 87. My Quad screams. I'm happy. A Caveat: Porsches generally run better (Motronic engine mgt. systems controlling spark/fuel & some very high comp. ratios) on Shell. Why? NO additives. Why would you run this stuff? The fuel in high performance Porsches (& some other cars) tends to 'cavitate' or 'flash off' (some of those additives referred to above contain ALCOHOL) just before it hits the injectors. This creates air in the system causing the car to stumble during track events & 'over the legal limit' street events. Porsche & Shell have a long & checkered (flag) past - I tend to believe them (for racing). As for me, I tend to believe the American Petroleum Institute & also the various Refiner's Assoc. Remember, Uncle Sam makes a law about pollution or whatever, then passes it to the auto companies to incorporate into their vehicles. Who do you think picks up (all or most of) the tab to engineer the new fuels to help the auto folks look good to Congress? That's right, the Petroleum Industry. And if you're still hungry for (preachy) information here's a couple of bonus tidbits for you: A gallon of gas (pump price) is usually more or less 50% federal & state TAXES. Also, oil is sold by the 42 gallon barrel, NOT 55 as is supposed. Do the math. We don't/won't get rich in this business. We simply enjoy some semblance of excitement / independence here & there. O:-)
themacguy or anyone who knows more about this than I.
My understanding on octane is that the compression ratio is only half the story. I understood that one way of eliminating pinging in older engines was to advance the timing, therbey effectively bringing the spark forward to meet the premature combustion. However in more modern engines timing is pretty well advacned right from the factory, which means that the only option is to retard ignition - i.e. increase the octane.
Going back to my Jaguar example - if that ever starts pinging I am well stuffed - with a 91 octane recommendation and an 11.5:1 compression ratio avgas might look like a good bet.
The only reason I used the compression ratio as an example was to make it easier to understand. I think we all know that gas engines run on a air/fuel mixture ignited by a spark plug. What I was saying that a lower octane rated fuel is ignited more readily by higher temperatures that are created in a higher compression comustion chamber. I do realize that a diesel engine runs on this process alone, that is why they are so noisy and sound like the "knock". My current vehicle will knock(pre-detonation) under hard acceleration in the summer due to higher sustained engine temps, thus I usually run a higher octane fuel to alleviate this condition. So basically higher octane fuels should not offer any more power over lower octane fuels. The higher octane fuels allows the use of higher output engines that need the higher octane to eliminate pre-detonation. As far as the differance between 87 and 89 octane gas. The only differance for me is to run 89 during hotter months, 87 in the winter, and every fourth tank run super unleaded (unless I can find a reputable station with a nice sale going like $.05 off on sunday type thing). That brings me on to another point. Buy your gas from a reputable station. Newer reputable station is even better. Alot os older stations are know to have leaking tanks and if something can leak out other things can leak in, like water (condensation). I actually buy mos of my gas between three different, but newer stations in my area. Also DO NOT buy gas at quicky marts or discount gas stations. I have visted many different Gasoline Company storage facility's and they are not all the same. The local discount supplier would actually "blow" butane into the gasoline to bump up the octane rating. All of this information is based on what has been passed to me by non-scientists and just regular people, but it is what I live by and has not done me wrong.
This is the makings of a new topic. I, for one, never gave a second thought to where I purchase fuel, (usualy where it's handiest/cheapest). Stvdman,would you mind if I started a new topic and referenced your post?
Access the "Tire Tech" item for the technical info where there are a host of interesting items For example- select the following for a matrix of the tires and sizes "Diameter Comparison of Tire Sizes for Light Truck Light Truck Fitment Formulas"
From that area you can select a host of formulae "Light Truck Fitment Formulas" These formulae can be used to calculate the effective change in Axle ratio and mileage etc., as you compare different tires against the base tire you may have now.
well i finally got my roll-n-lock on my quad, they had almost 50 orders for the cover before thay had it built and ready for shipment. i love it so far, a friend of mine has the pace edwards and its about the same, but his is not as smooth or strong, and mine locks the tailgate, the pace edwards you have to get a pop n lock or a power lock (with the power lock you loose your manual opening ability). i also installed my oem fender flares, they have been on back order forever. the quad looks awesome now.
(andy_jordan) Once slight correction to your comments.
On a HI compression engine ,one should RETARD the timing because lower octane means the fuel burns FASTER. Thus, the lower octane fuel would actually try to make the engine run BACKWARDS by moving the compression peak to BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) With retarded ignition timing, the engine will now run without destroying itself but there is much power loss due to the retarded ignition timing.
BTW there are actuallt TWO ways to measure octane these are averaged together to give us PUMP OCTANE but that is another discussion.
The FLASH POINT is another important factor in the properties of a liquid fuel but is not DIRECTLY related to OCTANE.
We have 2 phenoena here PRE-IGNITION == compression starts fuel to burn PING == fuel burns too fast and peak compression occours too early in the driveshaft angle.
Ideally.. an engine should be timed to experience very slight PING on a hot day pulling up a steep hill or accellerating. This is the point of maximum power in the timing curve.
My point was that I believe that many new cars have the timing advanced from new. I believe that I am also right in saying that in modern engines the octane rating is more critical because of the use of fuel injectors rather than carbueretors (sp?). Carbon build up in fuel injectors is a lot more difficult to resolve.
Sorry to keep using a non-truck example, but the Jaguar V12s that were imported to North America were actually designed to run on 87 Octane (actually 91 RON, because that is the scale used in UK - but it is the same thing). I believe that the only adjustment made to import cars to allow for this was to alter the timing. Not sure how they compensated for power because they were both rated at the same hp and torque.
Comments
Chris
option on the Dakota 4x4, with a 4.7 engine? Is it the Jeep Quadra trac (II)? The tiny picture in
the brochure seems to show a 2 options for the hi
position. Is this right?
I took the truck in for the leak I thought was happening, and the dealer couldn't find anything. He said everything was dry. Good news for me. Everything is running great. I put one of those Pace Edwards roll top covers on - it works and looks real good.
The wife wanted to take it to work today. As hard as I tried, I couldn't say yes. If I'm going to be on the road, I want to be in the Dakota!
A few months ago I had to take it in for a faulty right turn signal. They fixed it at that dealership that day. No biggie.
Today I had to have it towed into a dealership -- it got stuck in the snow, stalled out several times, and then just wouldn't start. Dealership says that it's a faulty crank sensor.
I'm starting to get a little bit worried -- I need the truck to be dependable, but it's less than a year old and already has more than one failure.
Any thoughts?
Protecta?
I have searched the net and can not locate the
Protecta company which manufactures the bedliner
mats. I want the Protecta Heavy heavyweight Bedmat for the Dakota QuadCab and have been unable to determine if there is one even made yet. I do not want the standard Protecta bedmat.
The dealer asked why I wanted full time 4 wheel drive, and I explained that there are many times in Cleveland where I drop my Suburban in 4 hi and feel the transfer case bind around corners and in parking lots. There's a lot of days up here where the roads are plowed and salted, but traction still sucks. I went back and forth because the trade off is really bad gas mileage. The dealer joked that I might as well order the 3.92, because it wasn't going to make much difference in mileage anyway (I took him up on his offer).
Anyway - hope this helps.
PS - ordered my 4X4 11/23 and it was still on restriction as of Monday. Just can't put myself up to cancelling though. Too good a value - nothing else can do everything this vehicle can.
PSS - Last week I think someone posted here or in another Edmunds forum about a yellowish fluid drip in the middle of their Quad. It sounded like rear end lube to me. A little checking on the NHTSA site turned up a service bulletin on Dakota rear ends venting rear end fluid through the vent tube on the differential. NHTSA is a great site.
Can't remember which topic, but definitely a Dakota one and recent.
http://www.pace-edwards.com
It'll tell you all about it and find a dealer closest to you.
The only trouble I have had is that the lock freezes up on me. I just keep deicer in the glovebox.
Could someone do me a favor? I'm not good at finding things on the internet. Where are some other dakota discussions happening? Even if they are not as good as this one, I'd like to check them out. Thanks.
4-LO, NEUTRAL, 4WD, 4WD LOCK.
It has NO 2WD position, unlike the Jeep Selec-Trac. The positions are as follows:
4-LO: "traditional" part-time 4WD lo-range,
LOCKED differential
NEUTRAL
4WD: full-time 4WD, both axles driven thru an
OPEN differential, 48/52 front/rear torque
split.
4WD Lock: "traditional" part-time 4WD hi-range,
both axles driven thru a LOCKED
differential
Therefore, the Dakota full-time xfer is essentially the same as the Jeep Selec-Trac xfer
case, but WITHOUT a 2WD position. The Jeep Quadra-
Trac xfer case is an entirely different beastie...
I am totally confused, as i am expecting to buy a quad in the summer and was opting for the full time case. My parents have it on their G J (i know its quadratrac) and its very useful.
Any thoughts?
The transfer case is not like the Jeep QuadraTrac, Subaru, or other 'all wheel' drive systems. I stated that it was similar to the QuadraTrac in a prior post, which wasn't accurate. It doesn't have clutches or viscous couplings, so it doesn't adjust the power from the 'wheels that grip to the wheels that slip'.
It's also not a true open differential like a car without limited slip. There is always power going to the rear end. The simple example one service tech gave had the truck parked with the front wheels on ice and the rear on dry pavement. If the transfer case was 'open', the truck couldn't pull off the ice because all the power would go to the front wheels. If the transfer case where truly 'open', you could get out of the truck and watch the front wheels turn (I used to push myself out of snow drifts doing this in an old Camaro I had - then I had to run like Haiti's to catch up to it once it started moving). The Dakota with full time 4wd will move forward, however, because there is always power to the rear wheels. The only way the tech said that no power would go to the rear would be to drop the driveshaft.
They all said that the differential in the transfer case only really affects the front axle, allowing the front axle to slip in relation to the rear. They also all agreed that traction, particularly on marginal surfaces, is better than 2 wd alone. If the surface is really bad, 4 hi is still the way to go.
Is the locking mechanism on that cover reliable and durable? I had a Ford Ranger and the lock on the hydraulic cover was terrible - kept breaking and was so easy to get into. I assume you checked out other roll-covers, right. This is the best one on the market?
Chad
I am questioning their explanation of the rear driveshaft being always driven and the front driveshaft being somehow separated from that. I have reviewed the service manual for the NV242 xfer case and find no 'magic' device within it that could accomplish this feat. I find only an open differential within the NV242. A differential needs TWO 'outputs' to accomplish the ability to differentiate between the torque split. The front/rear driveshafts are the only two shafts coming out of the NV242.
The only ways I know of to produce what you describe is to use a viscous coupling on one driveshaft (Subaru) or some complicated electronics coupled with the ABS wheel sensors(Porsche). Neither of which are found on a Dakota. (But both better than the NV242 FULL TIME 4WD)
The ice/dry pavement example I was given was a hypothetical, it wasn't actually demonstrated. I understand what you're saying, but the fact that all three gave me consistent answers gave me more confidence that the full time transfer case will accomplish what I want. I've got it ordered, thought about dropping it after all the discussion about an open transfer case (which I understand thoroughly from my drag racing days - the concepts behind the definition of an open transfer case and open axle differential are the same), but decided to keep it after all three service technicians (not sales people) convinced me that traction on marginal surfaces was better with the full time transfer case than 2 wheel drive alone.
open differential in the "Full-Time" position.
However, I do agree that traction on MARGINAL
surfaces IS better with the full-time xfer case
than with 2WD alone. I presently have a Jeep
with the Selec-Trac xfer case that has the open
diff in the full-time position. It DOES help
in MARGINAL situations. True, if I am in full-time
4WD and the right rear wheel (for example) loses
traction, it begins to spin and power is transferred to the slipping axle. HOWEVER, it does
not seem to me to be an instantaneous xfer. It
seems to me that even though the right rear starts
to spin, the left front maintains traction long
enough to pull me out before the right rear loses
traction completely and gets all the power transferred to it. Of course, this is in MARGINAL
situations, where traction is low, but not nonexistent. For really bad situations, lock the
differential. It took me awhile to figure this out, but now that I understand how my vehicle behaves in full-time, I find it to be a very useful position, as it can be used when road
surfaces alternate from wet to dry to wet with no
warning. Just remember the limitations of it.
As far as the quad cab, I would say you would lose about a foot of workable space, maybe too much for an already short box. I don't know the answer for compatability with over the rail bedliners, but from initial reaction, it doesn't seem like it would work.
I think I have tracked down the noise and it is the engine cooling fan. (Once it disengages after initial starting, I don't think the fan clutch is releasing all the way) But every time I take it to the dealership, the noise will not present itself, so they won't even look at it.
So, I checked Alldata to see if there were any TSB's relating to this, and I found 2 that look like they might help me diagnose my problem
TSB Number Title
07-05-98 Engine cooling fan noise
07-09-98 Viscous Fan Drive Service
Does anybody here have access to the actual writeups on these TSB's? I would like to be able to go to the dealership with the TSB writups in hand so they can see exactly what the problem is and fix it. (no more of the "we can't create it, so you must be imagining it crap)
thanks for your help!
Bookitty
I drive several Porsches a lot, and believe me, this truck is fast by anyone's standard. It really could use a little mileage boost at the expense of some acceleration in my opinion. Although I've been told by my (local oil business) compadres that my mileage figures are very good compared to theirs (trucks / SUVs), so I won't harp too much!
It handles like a dream and rides like a well sprung sports sedan. FYI - I've been hearing that the 3.9's are similar to the 4.7 in mileage. Some folks think that their acceleration is fine with the V-6. Also, heard one guy give a slightly lower 'figure' than mine with his 5.9 V-8 (Club cab); he quoted me (and was very happy) a figure of 15.5 for a tank from El Paso to Midland - on I-20. :-(
I drove everything available in a mid to large truck for fifteen hundred miles - nearly bought the Tundra: fabulous truck, great local dealer, but very high price + it was a little too 'tall' to get in / out of the 30+ times a day that I have to check various wells & tank batteries in the field. Happy with it? You betcha. Buy another one? In a heartbeat (if it gets a @!?# tan interior).
Problems? Two. 1st: gas cap (because I keep my spare key box next to it) made the MIL failure light come on, pushing it off of its 'seat.' Moved the spare - no more problem. 2nd: I can't keep my right foot still while I play with the little stereo 'thingies' under the steering wheel!
Final thought: though we're (just me) long winded, compare the intelligence level of the Dakota sites to any other brand / model on the web. Once you do, I believe you'll see hundreds of hours of research / comparing / test driving went into our decision(s) to spend $20+k on the new Dak Quad. And we're backing that up with HONEST opinions. Any further questions - e:mail me.
of many Dakota owners. Now that you mention it, I would have to agree. Many people admit to being partial to GM,FOMOCO...etc, but still put their hard-earned cash into the purchase of a Dakota after investigating all of the alternatives.
folks having the ticking noise. I do too. It's not
too loud but, it is there nonetheless. The radio
hides most of it, but I don't like knowing it's
there - I wouldn't expect it to be.
I would like to hear from anyone those out there
so we can compare notes.
Has anyone been to a dealer and had it fixed?
Is anyone aware of a service bulletin?
Respond here or send to myersed@clas.net
'ticking noise' is that it is part of the OBD (On
Board Diagnostic)system. Apparently there is a
solenoid on the firewall that is part of the
fuel-tank-venting diagnostic. This diagnostic seals
off the only known vent of the fuel tank and then
attempts to create a stable vacuum within the
system. (A missing gas cap would cause a failure
condition) This solenoid turns on/off quickly to
perform this disgnostic and has been said to be the
source of the noise.
My solenoid is triple rubber mounted. (Rubber
standoffs holding the rubber-mounted bracket
holding the rubber-mounted solenoid.)
According to the shop manual, this (And most
other) diagnostic routines will not even run during
cold weather.... Thus my Dak has not been able to
run the diag. routine. I have never had any
ticking since purchacing in November. (But have
been listening for one)
I currently have 4 wheel ABS on a Stratus and it works great on wet & snowy surfaces. 4 wheel ABS would no doubt work great on 2WD and 4WD versions of the Dakota as long as you're on the highway and not in 4WD mode (in the case of a 4WD equipped vehicle). Problems occur in other situations because:
1. When you lock into the 4WD mode, all of your wheels are now rotating in unison. ABS can't detect one wheel loosing traction and skidding versus the rotational speed of the other wheels. The ABS computer just can't tell whats going on anymore.
2. You're stopping distances will greatly increase with ABS in off-road situations. They say that when you're in loose dirt/sand/gravel and you put on a panic stop with "normal" brakes, a pile of dirt/sand/gravel quickly builds up in front of the non-rotating tire and this helps to stop you pretty quick. They say a wise person would disable the ABS by pulling the fuse out while you're off-road (not in 4WD mode). If the ABS is enabled (still not in 4WD mode) and you're into a panic stop, the ABS would allow each wheel to rotate to some degree as to not loose traction. Even this small amount of rotation would not allow that little pile of dirt/sand/gravel to build in front of each tire and therefore your stopping distance increases.
Although not specifically stated, it appears that if you're off-road and in 4WD mode the ABS is essentially disabled. Therefore, in a panic stop, your braking system would lock all 4 wheels, in either a 2 or 4 wheel ABS, you'd get the desired little piles of dirt/sand/gravel and would stop in the shortest possible distance.
Does any of this sound logical and apply to the Dakota?
Performance / mpg et al. I love the performance of my truck, but I have to wonder whether companies, all of them, really spend money on fuel efficiency. Let me tell you what I mean.
I am currently looking for a commuter vehicle as I don't want to do 400 miles a week in my truck. It only needs to last a couple of years, because then I will be moving, and depreciation is a bigger factor than fuel economy. So with that in mind I test drove a 1987 Jaguar XJ12 on the weekend. This thing has a 5.3L V12, and weighs 4000#. It is also 13 years old. And yet, according to the computer on my prolonged test drive it averaged 34.1 km/h - over 21mph. Now I am not claiming that I found the top speed (155mph if you're interested), but it was a test drive so I wasn't being that careful on economy. If the Jag can do that, shouldn't a 2000 truck be able to do better than 16-18?
Incidentally, performance off the line was pretty similar to my Dak with the 3.92, although to be fair the Jag's gear ratios are pretty high.
4x4 and ABS - spike 50, I don't disagree with you in principle, but I think the report may overstate the on road 4x4 & ABS difficulties. I personally don't believe in 4 wheel ABS, I do a lot of off roading, and you are spot on. In my case I am often off road in snow and there the effect of the 'wedge' in front of the wheel is really marked.
4x4 isn't going to help you stop any quicker than 4x2, and it is a myth to think that ABS ever stops you quicker - that is possible under certain conditions, but the idea of ABS is to increase control under heavy braking, not to reduce stopping distances.
Spoke with Ernie a few moments ago, and he gave me
the "good news" and the "not so good news". The
"good news"; There are no more material
restrictions on your order. The "not so good
news"; Your dealer's allotment is on hold at this
time. He further explained that as a large dealer
that should soon clear. Also, once past build
material restrictions, it would be unusual for the
particular order to face that problem again, unless
another component (or more) should suddenly appear
difficult to obtain.
NOW READ THIS!!!
This is not a general lift of restrictions, and is
applicable to this particular order. Not that it
means my order only, but a group of orders that
were processed within a certain time frame. Here's
hoping.
Bookitty
Ron S.
I want to get the best possible life out of my new Dakota Quad 4.7 so I would be interested in hearing any feedback about this theory. Another thought, if gasoline wholesalers cheat on the 87 octane does the 89 octane provide insurance against substandard gas? How will higher octane gas damage the engine? I really don't want to spend an extra 10 cents a gallon but it would be a small price to pay if it had any real benefit.
Bookitty
As for the octane deal (I'm in the oil business aka 'upstream' & was, at one point, in the refining end aka 'downstream.' I also race all over the Southwest US.) here's some further info: the additives (added chemicals to the base stock) for your specific area (altitude & climate) are the MOST important part of the equation. The high 92 & superhigh, way up to 110+ octanes (and boosters by-the-can) are used to control the 'flame front' in the cylinders of high performance (usually high compression) engines (real important in racing karts). You & I are concerned more with pinging, knocking and longevity than 'high performance' octane content (I would think). Hence, the refiner's dilemma about using various additives for engine control and durability of engines - in tandem with today's advance on-board auto computers. Lots of additives for lots of situations...
Here in W. TX. where more oil & natural gas is produced for our consumption than anywhere else in the US we have, essentially one large refiner about 40 miles from Midland. Some of that fuel is sold in a round-about-way back into Midland. It is absolutely terrible here! But it works great on the Gulf Coast. Why? The base stock has additives blended in for THAT market, not the one 2,000' higher (Midland) - next door to the refinery.
Some more specifics: The Chevron (& recently) Texaco brand fuels (ALL three avail. pump octanes with a .30 / gal total spread) have our specific market additives nailed. They all work equally well. I use the 87. My Quad screams. I'm happy.
A Caveat: Porsches generally run better (Motronic engine mgt. systems controlling spark/fuel & some very high comp. ratios) on Shell. Why? NO additives. Why would you run this stuff? The fuel in high performance Porsches (& some other cars) tends to 'cavitate' or 'flash off' (some of those additives referred to above contain ALCOHOL) just before it hits the injectors. This creates air in the system causing the car to stumble during track events & 'over the legal limit' street events. Porsche & Shell have a long & checkered (flag) past - I tend to believe them (for racing).
As for me, I tend to believe the American Petroleum Institute & also the various Refiner's Assoc. Remember, Uncle Sam makes a law about pollution or whatever, then passes it to the auto companies to incorporate into their vehicles. Who do you think picks up (all or most of) the tab to engineer the new fuels to help the auto folks look good to Congress? That's right, the Petroleum Industry. And if you're still hungry for (preachy) information here's a couple of bonus tidbits for you: A gallon of gas (pump price) is usually more or less 50% federal & state TAXES. Also, oil is sold by the 42 gallon barrel, NOT 55 as is supposed. Do the math. We don't/won't get rich in this business. We simply enjoy some semblance of excitement / independence here & there. O:-)
My understanding on octane is that the compression ratio is only half the story. I understood that one way of eliminating pinging in older engines was to advance the timing, therbey effectively bringing the spark forward to meet the premature combustion. However in more modern engines timing is pretty well advacned right from the factory, which means that the only option is to retard ignition - i.e. increase the octane.
Going back to my Jaguar example - if that ever starts pinging I am well stuffed - with a 91 octane recommendation and an 11.5:1 compression ratio avgas might look like a good bet.
Stvdman,would you mind if I started a new topic and referenced your post?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/index.html
Access the "Tire Tech" item for the technical info where there are a host of interesting items
For example- select the following for a matrix of the tires and sizes
"Diameter Comparison of Tire Sizes for Light Truck
Light Truck Fitment Formulas"
From that area you can select a host of formulae
"Light Truck Fitment Formulas" These formulae can be used to calculate the effective change in Axle ratio and mileage etc., as you compare different tires against the base tire you may have now.
had almost 50 orders for the cover before thay had
it built and ready for shipment. i love it so
far, a friend of mine has the pace edwards and its
about the same, but his is not as smooth or strong,
and mine locks the tailgate, the pace edwards you
have to get a pop n lock or a power lock (with the
power lock you loose your manual opening ability).
i also installed my oem fender flares, they have
been on back order forever. the quad looks awesome
now.
good luck all,
robert
On a HI compression engine ,one should RETARD the timing because lower octane means the fuel burns FASTER. Thus, the lower octane fuel would actually try to make the engine run BACKWARDS by moving the compression peak to BTDC (Before Top Dead Center) With retarded ignition timing, the engine will now run without destroying itself but there is much power loss due to the retarded ignition timing.
suprise surprise....Octane really means;
lower octane = BURNS FASTER
higher octane = BURNS SLOWER
BTW there are actuallt TWO ways to measure octane these are averaged together to give us PUMP OCTANE but that is another discussion.
The FLASH POINT is another important factor in the properties of a liquid fuel but is not DIRECTLY related to OCTANE.
We have 2 phenoena here
PRE-IGNITION == compression starts fuel to burn
PING == fuel burns too fast and peak compression occours too early in the driveshaft angle.
Ideally.. an engine should be timed to experience very slight PING on a hot day pulling up a steep hill or accellerating. This is the point of maximum power in the timing curve.
Sorry to keep using a non-truck example, but the Jaguar V12s that were imported to North America were actually designed to run on 87 Octane (actually 91 RON, because that is the scale used in UK - but it is the same thing). I believe that the only adjustment made to import cars to allow for this was to alter the timing. Not sure how they compensated for power because they were both rated at the same hp and torque.