Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

arnoldb

It happens when it is in drive

 

A

arnoldb

Thanks Craig. While I appreciate your remarks, your attitude needs an adjustment. Maybe you had a bad day so we'll just hope it gets better.

 

If this is ABS, 1) why would it happen on dry pavement? 2) why has this never happened on any other vehicle I have with ABS? 3) why was Subaru of America unable to explain what it was when they responded to my calls and letters when this occured on dry pavement?

 

A

c_hunter

Sorry if I came across harsh, I just don't think it is right to complain about the car when this was an obvious case of ABS. Many accidents are caused by people who improperly react to ABS, so it's important for people to understand how it feels and behaves (in fact it's covered in driver's Ed).

 

Haven't your other ABS vehicles given the same pedal feel/behavior at one time or another?? Every ABS vehicle I have owned -- Hondas, Subarus, and Mazdas -- all do the same exact thing when ABS kicks in. The pedal pulsates and sinks, and you can feel ABS pump the brakes. It's hard to mistake.

 

ABS will activate on dry pavement if any of the wheels lock up. I would recommend you have someone watch your vehicle when this "issue" is happening, and I bet one or more of the wheels is locking up. From there, try to figure out why -- are you going too fast, braking too hard, is there loose sand or gravel, etc.

 

Finally, be aware that ABS can falsely activate if you hit certain types of bumps/ripples in the road (usually requires at least 20-25mph speed or more). Some vehicles are worse than others in this respect, but I can honestly say my Outbacks have been better than other vehicles I have owned.

 

Craig

snowbelter

My expertise is limited to driving my 02 OB and my wife's 04 OB, meaning I drive Subies a lot, but I'm no engineer. The noises and pedal feel you describe sound precisely the same as the noises and pedal feel I often experience when the ABS system activates. The first few time it happened I thought something was wrong with the car. Even now, when the ABS activates and I'm not expecting it, I find it startling. I've had my ABS activate on dry roads when coming to a stop at a slow speed when the pavement is uneven. And The ABS certainly kicks in with pedal pulsation and noise when I'm slowly going down an incline on the type of road surface you describe. I find the ABS settings on our cars to be pretty sensitive. When I changed the tires on my 02 last winter from the RE 92s, the new tires gripped much better and the ABS stopped kicking in so frequently. One more thing. Craig knows quite a bit about Subarus and has been helpful to many many people on this Board, and I would suspect he's trying to help you figure out your problem and isn't having a bad day. Martin

troop2shos

It sounds like the ABS is doing its job. There are many complaints on other OB/Leg. boards regarding the RE92's lack of grip - especially since a similar OBW duplicated the problem on the same hill / % grade / surface.

cmuniz

I vote for normal ABS function since the loaner did it, too. Not sure why service manager wouldn't suspect this. My Forester brakes make some noise when first applied on cold mornings while backing up and ABS will engage while going down my steep, long driveway if it is wet or snowy.

hypov

I might have missed it; what MY is your Outback?

 

Anyway, the symptom do sound like the ABS is doing its thing. In my '98 OB and '99 OBS, I'll feel a very strong pulsing recoil on the brake pedal and hear the jackhammer like noise in sync with the recoil. With my '03 WRX, the feel and sound is different much like you'd described, grinding feel [throbbing] and clunking sound [thumping].

 

What you've experienced isn't a flaw, it is normal and it is the ABS is what it is

If not a flaw, then why is it activating even on dry pavement?

a - lack of grip from worn tires or the tire model itself that the brakes are over powering them and causing sooner lock-up.

 

and

 

b - whenever, most of the time, when there's a weight shift to the front that causes the nose to dip/dive the ABS will kick in when braking. In your case, you were descending a steep driveway/street and you're already diving to start. I'm technically challenged so that's my best explanation.

 

 
-Dave

 

p/s I think worn shocks can also induce the ABS when braking too.

arnoldb

To all of you who have responded, a sincere "thank you".

 

The more I read what you have written and the more I read up on ABS, the more it sounds as if ABS is what it is.

 

I am still perplexed why it only happens once, at almost the precise place in the descent, every morning but won't do it again once the vehicle is warmed up. If it sits for a while, the sensation is likely to re-occur.

 

On dry pavement in the AM, the clunk occurs, as I said, in the same place. It happens once and it's over. The pedal is not depressed enough to lock any wheels but just some pressure to keep me flying down the hill.

 

I will read up on this some more and look forward to your responses.

 

Arnold

arnoldb

Hi Dave,

it is a 2004 Outback Wagon, 6,000 miles. The weight shift to the front is an interesting idea and one I will further look into.

 

Arnold

arnoldb

Thanks for the comments. My OW has not made this noise backing up, only going sown the hill. I think this forum has been of great help and I love the immediate feedback.

 

Arnold

dave_b

I have a ‘98 Outback and have had 2 occurrences of not being able to turn the ignition to the lock position to allow me to remove the key. I tried moving the shifter, steering wheel and the key – all to no avail. Last night, after waiting about 1 hour, I went out to the garage and the ignition turned to lock and I was able to remove the key normally. Could something just have just need to cool? Thoughts on what I should look at??

arnoldb

Thanks Martin. I'm sure Craig was not meaning to come off as I interpreted the message. Tone is hard to pick up on in writing.

 

I am aware that all of you are way more knowledgable about these things than I am and I appreciate the time you have taken to address my comments.

 

What you and others describe appears to be the same thing I am experiencing. Again, this has never happened with my Honda so that is still confusing to me.

 

Arnold

subearu

I'm not sure if it has been noted before, but the ABS will cycle for a second or so the first time the vehicle is moved beyond 5mph, IIRC. No matter if you're on the brakes or not. This happens after each startup, the ABS is doing it's checks on things. It could be that in your case, you're encountering the cycle check while decending the hill...just a thought

 

-Brian

arnoldb

That would explain why, circling around and doing it again, it can't be re-created after the intial pedal sensation descending the hill.

Thanks

Arnold

snowbelter

My car does the "early morning clunk" (ABS self-test) as I back it out of the garage with my foot on the brakes. My wife's first OB a 00 did not do this and I thought something was wrong with my car when I first bought it. Martin

locke2c

your ignition barrel / steering column lock is wearing. most often the opposite happens; you get into the car with the barrel in LOCK and cannot turn the key to unlock.

 

the workaround for both problems is the same-- wiggle the steering wheel slightly.

 

if this is, or becomes, ineffectual you'll need a new ignition barrel. it happens on high mileage vehicles... how many miles on your '98 OB?

 

~Colin

ateixeira

Ken buys v1.0 yet again...LOL.

 

You gotta be like me and wait at least half a model year. ;-)

 

-juice

kens

Hee hee hee. What can I say, I'm an early adopter for some things. Actually, it's a relatively minor glitch in what has been so far a flawless vehicle. At this time in my 98 Forester ownership, a number of beta problems were already starting to emerge.

 

Plus I have the peace of mind of good friends watching over me at SOA. :-)

 

Ken

paisan

Sorry for the late post. They are extremely reliable. I bought Jim's from TX last spring. So far i've put 16K street miles on it, and easily 10+ track days running it at or near redline the whole time on track. Very quick and reliably as all getup. Its fun to be doing 125mph at pocono and get buzzed by a tube-framed corvette doing 182mph.

 

This winter/spring we are planning on converting the legacy into a near-showroom stock race car with only minor changes to it.

 

-mike

jackleung

My 2001 Forester S+ was park under cover all the time and I just found water leak from the back of the roof. See pic in HERE . It really hurt my confident to Subaru's quality when I found several people with the same experience w/ me. (msg #3541, 2808, 2628,2632)

 

Anyone can comment what could be wrong w/ my car. And since it's not under warrenty, how expensive could it be to get it fix? Thanks.

 

Rgds,

  Jack

paisan

Most likely it's a clogged drain on the moonroof. Very common on older cars that have built up sludge in the drains.

 

-mike

xwesx

I'm wondering if maybe part of the reason that you are having brake issues during your initial descent is due to the engine idling at a higher rpm while it warms up? If you are running in 1st and the engine is still idling above 1000rpm, it will put more 'go' pressure on the system than if it were idling at 600 or so. This, combined with RE92s, uneven road surface, and grade, will mean you'll have to apply more braking pressure to acheive the same end result and could cause the ABS to engage. ?

 

I find that my ABS doesn't usually engage at speeds below 10, sometimes 15 mph. But, this is on a '96 so things probably changed a fair bit by '04. One thing is for certain though; when it does engage, it is NOISY!

 

Way off topic side note: I almost hate driving the Subaru so much because when I get back into my '69s, I have to remember how I learned to drive instead of modified Subaru driving. It astonishes me that I obliterate the slick roads up here daily without slowing down or even flinching in the Subaru, but when I drive my '69 Chevy C20 in the same conditions, I'm puttering along at 35-40 mph and know I'm pushing it if an emergency came up (like a moose in the way).

paisan

By the way tested out the 4-channel ABS in the SVX the other day in the rain/ice. It's even better than I thought. I did a standing stop from about 60mph full brakes. The ABS did it's thing and chirped the wheels nicely. Found out that when ABS is engaged on a wheel power id taken off it on the SVX. Also found out it is a 60/40 torque split on the SVX AWD system.

 

-mike

bkaiser1

Hi, I'm going to France next month and was planning on taking my Garmin iQue 3600 GPS along to help with navigating. One thought I had, though, was whether or not the car power outlets were the same as ours. Last time I rented a car in France, I didn't pay attention to the cigarette lighter, but I'm assuming they are the same as ours. Anyone know for sure?

 

Brian

jackleung

Mike,

 

Thanks for yr reply. I checked the drained today and there's no clogged in those holes. I pour water in those holes and the water out comes out properly from the bottom of the car.

 

I finally figure out the source of the problem when I pour the water to other side of the trail (see here). Water come out from properly from the rear bottom of the car but also leak seriously inside the car ( pic1 & pic2 ). It means if the car parked in a slope uphill, the water will goes to the rear and water will leaked into my trunk. Is it normal or it just happen to my car?

 

My primary reason to buy the S+ is the huge moonroof and I never thought it could become a nightmare.

kens

mike,

 

Good to know you're still driving the SVX! BTW, how did you learn it's 60/40?

 

Ken

kens

Brian,

 

Yes, they are the same 12V and the cigarette lighter socket is the same. There are a few cars that are going to a 24V standard, but those are rare.

 

Ken

c_hunter

Sounds like one of the drain lines is plugged, disconnected or leaking. Definitely not normal, but it should be easy to fix. You have done the hard part by troubleshooting the problem!

 

Craig

troop2shos

I agree, it seems that a drain is still plugged. I haven't check where the drain holes are in my XT, but in other moonroof equipped cars I've owned, there were drain holes in each corner...you didn't mention anything about seeing water draining out the front. I always spool off some bare wire for an electric fence & rod the drain lines out.

p0926

jackleung

There are 2 visible holes in the front of the moonroof, and I believe there should be 2 more in the rear corner. And I think all those 4 holes will drain the water out to the bottom of the car. I believe they are work properly in the sense to bring the water out as I see water coming out from the corresponding corner when I pour water there. But beside the bottom of the car, I also see water leaking from the roof (as my pics shown) when I pour water to the rear passenger corner. I am not sure if this is caused by a broken drain line or bad workmanship (probably not by a plugged drain line since water drain out from the bottom too). It just very disappointed to have "waterfall" inside my car, especially I always keep my dogs there!!!

 

I had this car for 4 years (65k of mileage) and I wonder if this problem still covered under warrenty. Can someone from SOA (Patti?) clarify this? Thanks a lot.

 

Rgds,

  Jack

bkaiser1

I appreciate it!

 

B

troop2shos

If there is an obstruction or partial obstruction in the drain lines not allowing the water to evacuate as designed, an overflow condition could occur. Also, the moonroof gasket is not designed to seal out water. Until I finally replaced the gasket in my old Gen II SHO, the old one had a large gap from shrinkage due to age but, there were no interior water leaks even in a heavy T-storm...had a lot of wind noise, though...

fibber2

Kevin,

 

I wouldn't worry too much about short term use of a full size spare that has a small wear related circumference difference. This is minor compared to the size difference of the mini spare and the heat buildup in the center and rear diff that those wheels cause. Just get the flat fixed ASAP and back in its rightful place.

 

Steve

fibber2

Steve,

 

First of a new model is certainly one cause for concern, and may lead to somewhat greater headaches. But frankly, I think much of your current problems might be related to how the car was driven and cared for by the previous owner. You may have come into the relationship after considerable misuse/abuse. That is the downside of buying used. The entry price is lower, but you may end up making it up over the long haul if the previous owner was not kind to the vehicle. Hopefully, after these wear items are resolved, the experience will be better.

 

But as a precaution, maybe you had better assume that other things were not attended to, and change out that tranny and diff fluid!

 

Steve

river7

Steve - Thanks for the note. I bailed on the car and traded to a 2003 auto with 16K miles and all the service records from the same dealership. Much happier, albeit a little upside down on the loan now though. This is the 4th model year with the 2003 and many of the annoying superficial items have been taken care of. Also, at least they enlarged the brake rotors from the 2000.

 

SJ

ateixeira

Great pics, I agree, is it still under warranty? Let us know what the fix is. Probably a disconnected drain if I had to guess. Question is how to access it?

 

-juice

hondafriek

juice, the only way to access it is to drop the headliner. From the amount of water that is running in, I would have to agree with your assessment that the drain has come off entirely.

 

  Cheers Pat.

jsun

Hello all,

  

After reading all the positive reviews on the 05' Legacy GT and a great test drive, I took the plunge and bought my very first Subaru, a 05 GT Legacy Wagon on Dec. 22, 04 from Larry H. Miller in Salt Lake City. The very next day, I couldn't get this brand new car started and I was stranded in a friend's place. The engine wouldn't crank at all. It was totally silent as I turned the ignition. No, it wasn't a dead battery either. All powered equipment like radio, doors, seats, wipers, headlights worked fine. I did try jump-starting the engine just to confirm it wasn't the battery. Suspecting that the engine imobilizer had kicked it, I researched the owner's manual thoroughly but there was no mention of the symptom nor any remedy. So, finally I had to have my brand new car towed to the dealership for service. Right after the car got off the tow truck, a mechanic jumped in and turned the ignition. The engine cranked over and started right away on his very first attempt. They took car in the shop and checked it out and couldn't find anything wrong with it. I was told there was nothing they could do. So I drove the Legacy home hoping it was just a one-time glitch although I had this haunted feeling every time I put the key into the ignition that dead silence would greet me. Well, the Legacy had started fine since then till yesterday morning (01/06/05) as I was ready to head for work and turned the ignition. My fear had become a reality, it was dead again with exactly the same symptom as the first time. Both time the car went dead, it was snowy and below freezing. 14 days after it left the dealer lot, the Legacy took its second tow truck trip back to the dealer garage. It was even the same towing company and same truck. After it got off the tow truck, the same mechanic jumped in, and you guessed it, just like last time, the Legacy fired right up. This time, I wouldn't take "there's nothing we could do" for an answer. I went and grabbed a Sales Manager and politely explained to him my misfortune with my brand new $30K purchase. They still have no clue what was acting up but they kept my car in the shop this time for more diagnostics. So, here I am, still waiting a response from my dealer and searching this forum for a similar experience reported by a fellow crew but couldn't find anything so far. Could anyone out there relate to my experience? Your help would be greatly appreciated.

 

(I also posted this at "Legacy/Outback Wagon: Problems & Solutions." Sorry for the double post but I'm desperate for some advice)

edunnett

My '01 Forester S with the moon roof also had a water leak but only on one occassion. I park it inside at night and in a parking lot during the day. I live in Norther California where it rarely rains and even less often thundershowers. In a very bad windy thundershower a few months ago, I returned to the car to find water beaded up on the dash, windshield inside, steering wheel and it appeared to be entering the cabin from the windsheild seal - the original source into the car from the outside was never found. It only ever leaked that one time.

 

When I took it to a body shop to investigate, they tested the water drains in the moonroof and they worked fine. THey chalked it up to a fluke and it never happened again (although I sold the car since then).

 

This will not be covered under warranty anymore I'm certain of it. That type of problem would only be covered on the bumper to bumper warranty and would have expired after 3 years or 36000 miles, whichever came first.

 

Sorry about your profuse leaking. :-( If you have a trusted body shop, perhaps they can help you out?

 

Elissa

p0926

I agree with Pat that dropping the headliner is probably the only way to get to the root cause of the problem. Once you do that it'll probably be easy to spot and fix.

 

-Frank

p0926

Well that sucks. Other than it sounding like your problem is electrical in nature, I don't have a clue what it could be. I kinda feel sorry for the service dept though since mysterious electrical problems that can't be replicated at the dealership are the toughest to find and fix.

 

-Frank

rob_m

Jack if you are listening, here is some advice.

 

I get the impression that your are posting this to the boards, and participating in the weekly chat in hopes of action from SOA, you will be severely dissapointed in the lack of response.

 

The SOA presence typically is the avenue of last resort when things go wrong - especially in the the area of customer relations.

 

You really need to follow the standard escalation pathway regarding your problem.

 

First, start with the dealer. Find out if this is covered under warrantee. If you are a 'valued' customer, it may be. Or, they will work some deal for you.

 

Second, if you do not feel that you are satified with the response of the dealer, open a case with SOA - call the 1-800-subaru3 number, or go to subaru dot com. Again, if this is a customer satisfaction issue, they will escalate through their system.

 

I will predict (unfortunately) that you will probably find that this is covered under the 3/36 warrantee, and are looking at an out of pocket repair.

 

I hope this helps. Rob M.

ateixeira

jsun: have them try a pre-emptive strike - change the starter. You have power but it doesn't crank, that's where I'd look first.

 

I just think they need to try something of substance. You may not know if it worked until a month later, when the problem goes away, hopefully.

 

-juice

ozman62

have the intermittent starting problem, and wasn't it related to the 'chip' in the key? It might be worthwhile to ask the dealer to reprogram the chip. If it happens again, try using your spare key.

Just a guess,

Owen

c_hunter

The immobilizer chip doesn't affect the starter, just the fuel pump.

 

Craig

jackleung

Thanks for everyone's input. I will try my local dealership next week to see what they said. I also predict this issue is not going to be covered since I had this car for almost 4 years w/ 65k of milage on it.

 

Like Elissa, I am living in California and where it rarely rain. (And I always park my car under covered). I start noticing some water in the trunk last Winter, but I thought it was from the water I gave to my dogs. This problem could exist since day 1 but it just impossible for me to discover it under the 3/36 period. It just very disppointing to found I am not along in the water leaking issue. (But unfortunatly, I am the only one who found it after the warrenty period....)

 

I will keep posting to let U guys know it goes.

 

Rgds,

  Jack

ozman62

Ah, yes. I didn't se your comments on the other board until now. I stand corrected.

Owen

jsun

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful suggestions. Here's an update on my Legacy. I just got off the phone with the service dept. at the dealership. They've kept my car since Wednesday morning (Today is Friday) trying to duplicate the problem I was claiming to have experienced. They left the car outdoors overnight Wednesday night but was able to start it successfully Thursday morning and all day Thursday. They parked it outdoors again last night in below-freezing temperature, and this morning the car finally acted up as I described when they tried to start it. I guess if they did have the slightest doubt that it was an operator error on my part that had been causing the problem, they don't now I hope. A few guys pushed the Legacy into the shop. They were able to rule out a bad starter because they couldn't detect any voltage going into it. Unfortunately while they were in the middle of doing another test the symptom vanished again and the car has been starting fine since. I was told that there is not anything they could do until the Legacy acts up again, so now the car is back to the outdoor parking lot for another day of cold treatment. Knowing that this is a hard problem to crack, I've been very polite and patient with the dealership, but honestly I'm very very upset at this point because this is a brand new $34K (including taxes, fees, finance charges,etc..) vehicle that have quit on me twice within 14 days of purchase, not to mention that my wife has been on my case too since she wanted a Honda in the first place until I finally convinced her that Subaru is also very reliable. Oh well, I'll not elaborate any more on this domestic tension, but it really sucks. I'll keep you posted.

  

Jun

crashton6

I was thinking it was the immobilizer too. Until I read that that doesn't affect the starter. Now I don't have a clue about why your car won't start. What I will tell you is to document everything about this. If it were my car I'd give them a reasonable amount of time to fix it & if they couldn't I'd be checking into my states lemon law. Good luck, I hope they get it fixed for you.

 

Chuck