Periodic Maintenance

sharat

I own a '98 accord with 68K miles on it.. When I start the car, the "Maint Req'd" indicator lights up and vanishes in 2 seconds. Is this an indication of bad things to come??

Just took my car for oil change last week, and the dealer did not report any problem with the vehicle. Can anyone suggest any steps to be taken in this regard? Or is this something which is normal?
Thanks.

swschrad

that's a bulb test they built in for you. if the $$$ light doesn't come on any other time, you're in the clear for emissions and sensor issues at the moment.

nippononly

the other day about two-plug systems, which is for more complete combustion and thus lower emissions, without having to design in an intake restrictor which causes the flow to swirl (be turbulent), in order to accomplish this.

I imagine that without the intake restrictor, you can get more performance out of it, while holding the line on emissions.

8u6hfd

you need the turbulence in the intake manifold (around the injectors) in order for the fuel to atomize better.

ray_h71

Firing a single sparkplug twice may not achieve the desired effect. The secondary sparkplugs are positioned so the spark gap is properly exposed to a stratified charge of fuel-air that hasn't yet ignited a millisecond or two after the primary sparkplug fires but prior to the actual power stroke progressing. About Mercedes "still" using secondary sparkplugs? Are you serious, 8u6hfd? That's a fairly recent feature ("phased twin-plug ignition" in Mercedes-speak) all current Mercedes gasoline engines use and will likely continue with for some time. I read that a new Ford engine to be intro'd as a 2004 model will have similar technology - complete with Mercedes-like 3-valve heads. Wasn't it Honda that first put two sparkplugs per cylinder commercially in the original quasi-stratified charge CVCC engine? The 2-sparkplug concept is not a kludge to extend the life of old engine design. The manufacturers, including Honda, were simply able to meet previously mandated emmissions standards for a while on one sparkplug. Whether any of us -like- the notion of having two sparkplugs to do the seemingly more elegant approach of what one sparkplug "should" be able to accomplish, look for this technology to spread to new engine designs in the coming years to achieve corporate-wide ULEV and SULEV emmissions standards.

haspelbein

Firing a single sparkplug twice may not achieve the desired effect. The secondary sparkplugs are positioned so the spark gap is properly exposed to a stratified charge of fuel-air that hasn't yet ignited a millisecond or two after the primary sparkplug fires but prior to the actual power stroke progressing.

If I'm reading your statement correctly, the requirement for the secondary spark plug is a question of both timing and positioning. Basically, the combustion would have pockets of unused fuel/air mix in specific locations milliseconds after the first plug fired, right ?

This now makes more sense to me. Is this also maybe a feature of large displayment engines ? I could see how a uniform ignition across a large combustion chamber could be tricky.

bbf65

planning to upgrade speakers on a trusty '94 honda accord lx sedan.

questions to those of you who might know:

1. speakers sizes: 6.5 in. (front), 6x9 (rear), according to crutchfield. are these correct?

2. are the grilles (front door panel and rear parcel shelf/deck) removable or is taking the whole panel the only way to go?

3. any wiring harnesses needed?

thanks in advance.

inkie

I just happened to go through some helpful articles from the Popular Mechanics 2000 calender and they write. I quote "There is no such thing as break-in oil on a new car. The first oil and filter change should be at 500 miles to remove contaminants, abrasives and wear particles. Refill the crankcase with oil of the manufacturer's recommended grade and viscosity".
I wonder who is right? Honda or Popular Mechanic's sources. I have posted elsewhere, the comments are interesting and I would like to read what you regular's think.

mikek37

I would have to go with Honda on this one.

8u6hfd

Honda.

Popular Mechanics don't design Hondas

tboner

Every time I hear about the break in oils I ask this question, can you buy them at the parts counter when you rebuild your engine?

TB

swschrad

they will have all the sludge, acid, metal and dirt particles, bandage flakes, foundry sand, dead bugs, and cig butts in there you could EVER want to put in your pristine new engine.

and all you have to do is start a siphon when nobody is looking! talk about a deal!

inkie

You really bring up a good point!

fleetwoodsimca

I would change the oil during the first 1000 miles, and ALWAYS DO exactly that, when I buy a new motor vehicle. The only Honda I have ever purchased at all, is my current Valkyrie motorcycle, which is manufactured in Marysville right along with Honda cars. I bought it new and changed the oil by 600 miles. My point? I do what I advise others to do. I would say that "Popular Mechanics" has the better idea.

inkie

You are more stringent than most of the people I know including myself but if it works for you why change.On new cars and thereafter I used to change every 3 months or 3000 miles but I now go 4 months or 4500. Due to the fact that I am a chemist it worries me to go any further knowing what contamination can do to an engine. Its very cheap insurance.

fleetwoodsimca

My formula is to change the oil and filter every 3K, and I don't worry too much about how long the time is between those changes. I like to get the "break in" oil out of the crankcase by 1K miles, just in case there are metallic particulates circulating from the early stages of wear in the new engine.

nippononly

I never change the oil in new cars before 5K, and they always go forever with no engine rebuild or replacement. This has been true for 2 Toyotas, and one Honda, two Subarus.

haspelbein

...seem to have been the subject of discussion in numerous threads in the forum. I can't recall how many people argued over:

a) oil change intervals
b) oil types
c) oil filters

What baffles me most that the differences, as long as you stay within reasonable limits, are probably very minor. Changing oil is like changing underwear to me. Yes, I can extend the change intervals and be perfectly fine. But it brings ease of mind to change more often.

cds12

When I go over speed bumps with my front wheels I hear a noise knida like fiberglass rubbing. It seems to be louder when its cold. Any Ideas?

Thanks

swschrad

you may have a clearance issue on your tires. I recommend renting a bulldozer friday afternoon and taking those speed bumps out way early saturday morning

kidding!

call a news conference and take 'em out when the cameras arrive.

-0-

or, just take the speed bumps slower until it's time for new tires, and put the right size on. my bet is there are aftermarket tires on a little wider than standard because they look cooler.

nippononly

I agree...there is such a wide divergence of oil changers on this board...from every 1000 miles with synthetic oil to every 10K with dino...and yet all of them seem fine, so probably it makes very little difference in the end.

The funny thing is, if one's engine goes belly up for an oil-related problem, one will probably be kicking oneself if the oil changes were left to be only as frequent as the longest intervals described here....

armtdm

The funny thing is, if one's engine goes belly up for an oil-related problem, one will probably be kicking oneself if the oil changes were left to be only as frequent as the longest intervals described here....

Well, I have never heard of an engine going belly up in under 100,000 miles (failure due to oil) in the past several years if the oil was changed at the longest interval. Even the Toyota sludged engines the claim is manufacturing or design issues. Engine wear is gradual and I feel in 100,000 miles it doesn't make any diff how often you change your oil, the engine will not go belly up due to oil failure or engine wearing out. It may use some oil by then but belly up, dead, not likely.

atlantabenny

When I was still working for a major oil company, my engineer co-workers would keep the engine (crankcase) oil in their cars as long as they could to test the stated lifespan of the oil. Those days, maximum drain interval in miles was printed on the containers.

Having ready access to a lab, this was safe to do because they could test the oil in short, progressive stages.

Findings ? Oils typically exceeded by 30-50% the stated lifespan - with said lifespan within the ballpark of the carmaker's maintenance schedule.

A major caveat here is the state of the oil filter - it must have capacity to catch and retain harmful particles. Thus, if one replaces oil filter every other oil change, the filter is pretty much full by the 2nd change, making that change critical as in "do it now."

On a new car's 1st oil change, it's "prudent" to change oil and filter earlier to prevent the "setting-in" metal particles from harming the engine.

10k miles for the first change ? Being that Honda will not risk reputation and money to pay for early engine damage, I can only conclude that their manufacturing and assembly methods have attained precision levels that make it safe for them to recommend it.

Personally, I'd like to have a buffer by changing both oil and filter at the 5k mark, max, for the first drain.

Changing earlier and more often, as someone else posted here, would be a matter of personal preference because it's essentially cheap insurance.

fleetwoodsimca

Yours is one of the more scientifically proper responses posted on this matter. Boiling it down to "cheap insurance" as a rationale for using shorter periods between drains and filters is an excellent way to put it.

pj23

Well put!

atlantabenny

sameern

I have '98 Honda Accord LX V4 and it just clocked 90K. I got it used when it had 80K. I called in the local dealor and he quoted me $400 for the 90K service and he told me that he is gonna change timing belt as well. I checked the owners manual and it doesnt suggest timing belt change before 105K. Is dealor trying to rip me off? How much I should be paying for a routine 90K service?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

inkie

Your response makes sense. I can now surmise if you read my previous posts on "break-in oils". Popular Mechanics may have some credence.

atlantabenny

Thanks. I myself have respected Popular Mechanics for a long time now, and their advice that the first oil drain be at 500 miles is certainly something to consider.

Knowing however that Honda has a racing-backed expertise in car engines makes me compromise the PM number with Honda's.

Then again, one needs only spend $20 to $40 more every 10,000 miles (or 8-9 months) for the shorter drain intervals for absolute peace of mind. And that amount is still a bargain for a highly personal object like one's car.

chuckk1

You have a V4? All 4 cylinder engines I know are in line 4. I'm sure this just a typo though. About timing belt, It's preventative more than anything. But if it breaks, engine damage could result. If your service package of $400 includes a whole lot of other stuff, then it might be good. I know that timing belt installations run about $250 to $275. Break down the service items, get what you need, take out what you don't and have them recalculate it. If your engine idles and accelerates, and decelerates, and runs well, then you know that your timing belt is not slipping. Its only 15K miles early, and if you plan to put a lot of miles on your car, and to keep it for a year or two, and if you can afford it, go for it!

nippononly

not to make anything serious out of all this, but here is a little comparison for everyone. Car manufacturers have been busy going back to timing chains after a number of years of 100K belts, because consumers complain of the extra cost of changing the timning belt as a part of routine maintenance. Now for most cars that I am familiar with, $250 or so would be the normal price to change this belt, in fact, it can be had for a little cheaper for some models.

Now let's look at the number of extra oil changes in the 100K interval for the "cheap insurance" advocates. If I change my oil every 7.5K, and you "cheap insurers" do it twice as frequently, then in the course of 105K miles, you will rack up an extra 14 oil changes, which cost roughly $20 apiece at the Jiffy Lube and roughly $12 apiece for filter and oil if you DIY. Even at $12/ea, the additional cost in 105K will be $168, and at Jiffy Lube the additional cost will be $280, effectively eliminating the cost savings achieved by going back to timing chains.

I am not saying it is bad advice to change your oil frequently or anything. It was just the question above on the Accord timing belt got me to thinking: one of the things I specifically chose my current car for was the fact that it had a timing chain not a belt, precisely to effect this savings.

armtdm

Someone mentioned that cheap insurance included changing the filter based upon past experience that a filter would be full at the second oil change interval.

In todays engines and with todays oils I no longer believe the oil filters do much of a job of filtering anything. Please, if you do not believe me the next itme you remove one cut it open. You will find basically no accumulation of anything. To say that it will be plugged up with contaminants after 7500 or even 15,000 miles I feel is no longer the case. The particles are too small to capture in a full flow filter and it is the oil doing the work and keeping the particles in suspension.

I have net heard of anyone opening a filter and seeing an accumulation of dirt or gunk other then if a cleaning agent was used in the oil. Normal operation will not utilize any filtering capabilites of a filter. We sue them because we have to and they make us feel good.

aming

Just curious...How often do you change your filter?

atlantabenny

Armtdm is right in that oils with detergent additives keep abrasive particles in suspension.

There is a next stage to the process, however, and that is for the suspended particles to stop circulating with the oil because if not, they will still do harm.

This is where the oil filter is needed. That big particles aren't visible is because the captured particles are micron-size (requiring that oil filters have micron-size ability, which they have).

A non-filtered but oil-changed engine won't fail in the short-term but say, at 50k miles, chances are the oil-filtered motor will be running smoother and quieter.

bburton1

In my neck of the woods, the price to change just the timing belt is $525. Other drive belts are extra. Got a dealer in N WI to change my timing belt for about $350 and that included all the other drive belts-power steering, alternator and AC. Had mine changed at 113K on my 97 i4. The belt was in perfect shape-yep I know they can break without warning. The tech who changed my belt was very sharp and said this i4 was not an interference engine unless you had lots of carbon deposits. Broke a timing belt on an 80 accord once-no harm to the valves.

So I would wait till maybe 105/115k but then change all the drive belts and don't bother changing the water pump unless it is leaking. Some people do that automatically and if you are unlucky-the guy won't install the o ring properly and you will have a leak in a few months to deal with.

rayt2

While you have the unit apart for the sake of a $50-$60 water pump do it now. To have to go back 20k later and incur the same charge is not realistic, the wise thing to do is replace the pump too, or like I said you'll pay the same price all over again when the pump finally does fail. There is a lot of disassembly involed in changing the timing belt, the water pump is right there once belt is removed, not doing the pump now is crazy and a gamble not worth taking.IMO

Been there done that w/91 CRX w/165k on the clock so far.

Ray T.

armtdm

A quote from a previous post"A non-filtered but oil-changed engine won't fail in the short-term but say, at 50k miles, chances are the oil-filtered motor will be running smoother and quieter. "

this is not supported by any studies anywhere. It is pure speculation as to why we need oil filters on engines. No one has run an engine without a filter and done oil analysis for a comparable engine, mileage, driving habits etc and compared the results. We just assume that filters are needed and do the job. Well, cut one open and look at it closely!

aparnet2

So many threads going on about oil change. None of them seems to mention this "crush washer". I've just been to Honda's Owner Link web site. They recommend changing "crush washer" every time you change motor oil, which typically is not included in the oil-change service from a general shop... I don't want to go to the dealership for an oil-change, though they might be good engough to do it. Can anybody give me an opinion? Thanks in advance.

haspelbein

...but in most of the aftermarket filters I buy, the crush washer is included with the filter, if the specific car requires one. Only two out of my three vehicles do. It's washer made out of a soft metal, which acts as a seal for the drain plug.

I would replace mine every time, since it creates a perfect seal. On the other hand, you would probably only lose minute amounts of oil if it wasn't replaced.

Why don't you simply ask the place where you change your oil if the crush washer is included with the filter that they use ?

atlantabenny

We did cut one up in a technical training class when I was still working for a major oil company. The amount of contaminant was not overwhelming, considering that there's not much accumulated over a 5k mile interval.

Nevertheless, the consensus after seeing the dark and somewhat gritty filter element (after the oil had dried) was that it was better to have the filter there than not to catch abrasive material no matter how small.

Perhaps an oil filter company can better provide empirical data on long-term wear & tear rates between a filtered vs a non-filtered engine because we didn't do this test.

But in the same manner that I'd recommend using water filters (or bottled water) for long-term health considerations, the car owner in my opinion is better off having filter changes even without perfect knowledge of 80k analytical comparisons between a filtered and non-filtered engine.

rubicon52

"No one has run an engine without a filter"

As I recall, the 1960's VW bugs did not have oil filters. They did have a mesh screen, but I'm sure that the openings in the screen were huge compared to the particles trapped by a modern filter element. Seems to me that one could say these engines were running without filters. I think these VW engines had fairly good longevity for the time - maybe 50K-100K miles.

swschrad

you know, for things like varnish, acids, etc, trapped by the paper.

there's sure a lot of varnish trapped in a fuel filter from oxidation of gasoline components.

fritz1224

The main purpose of the washer is to help prevent stripping out the drain plug hole. Applying enough force to "crush" the new washer is sufficient and will also be tight enough to prevent leaking. That is why new one is recommended each change-you have a certain margin for error(overtightening). Because of the "crush" width getting narrower each time, using the same one over and over would eventually lead to stripping the drain hole if the same amount of tightening force is used .

bburton1

Yeah the old bugs had no filter-just a screen wire flter. Have a 72 vw bus with the "larger" engine-a whopping 1.5L i think and it has both the screen and a large filter. Got into the habit of changing oil on my old vw bugs every 1500 or 2000 miles. Lower end on those engines was good-but the problem was burning valves and then the next wear area was rings. Never had any problems with connecting rods or bearings on any of them.

atlantabenny

My particular group didn't analyze the cut-up oil filter. True, the oxidized oil residue (varnish) you mention is another solid that the filter should catch.

inkie

Gave my CRV an oil change today and used some new Honda filters that I purchased on line. I noticed the old one was a Filtech made in USA and all the new ones were made in Canada by Fram. The ones made by Fram are about 2 ounces lighter and seem not to have a valve on the bottom like the Filtech. I am not impressed with the Fram filter although the CRV's oil filter is very small the Filtech Filter looks sturdy inside and out, the Fram does not. I also purchased filters for my 00 Accord and I see the samething the Fram filter is lighter and not as sturdy as the 305 made in USA. I can't believe that Honda is having Fram make the filters in Canada. I guess its all about profit. Personally,if I can't obtain Honda Filtech USA oil filters I will buy other brands except Fram.

inkie

I am sure most of the places that do oil changes have crush washers. If not, go to any Honda dealer and buy some {their cheap} and give it to your oil change guy to use on your car.

torbik

For an oil filter for a '03 V6 Coupe ?

AutoZone told me either Fram PH7317 or PH3593A....which one?

Also Honda told me 15400-POH-305....I haven't yet taken off the old filter, but I would like to know which one to buy......thanks!

rayt2

Try looking in the owners manual it's listed there.

armtdm

Convert to a Fram or fumoto drain valve. Easier to work with and no future issues with stripped thereads or gaskets.

http://www.fumotovalve.com