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Comments
I will be happy to see more vehicles of this size.
We drove the current Ody, the Sienna and the domestics before buying our 1st Gen, and found them all to be too big and bulky for daily driving. Now, the new Sienna and Quest are growing even bigger. Time will tell what happens to the '05 Ody, but I don't see it getting any smaller.
Surely if Toyota can offer 5 SUVs in various sizes (RAV, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser plus Lexus) and Honda has the CR-V, Element, Pilot and MDX, both can offer more than one minivan. We all know they have the right cars in their product line ups in Japan, now they just need to put together the business case to bring them over.
I'd like to see them bring it back, but I expect the Element may fill that niche. The Element can be configured for 5 seats and, with more extensive content, it could serve as an alternative to the long wheelbase minivans.
From Nissan, the next gen Almera(Tino) which will share a platform with the Renault Megane Scenic.
From Volkswagen....the Touran, to slot in between the Jetta Wagon and the upcoming Microbus.
And from Mitsubishi, PLEASE bring the Grandis to slot in above the upcoming Lancer Sportback.
In the mini-minivan segment (called "monocab" in Europe), all those models would be easy to rationalize in terms of positioning against the bigger vans and smaller sport wagons. Most of the ones you list are Japanese. Since Renault is toast here, we won't ever see the Scenic, but GM could import the Opel Zafira (a great car) and VW should import both the Touran and the larger Sharan (it never made sense to me that as a sport company they continue to "sell" the boxy old Eurovan but refuse to bring the more refined and elegant Sharan). Also, Mercedes is planning to bring the next A-Class over, but you can be sure it will be more expensive than most of the iron here.
BTW: the '95 Ody had swing out doors but it was actually the '90-'95 Nissan Axxess (the Tino is a spiritual descendant) that offered the first set of dual (sliding) doors. As C&D once said, they gave "great, um, access to the Axxess!"
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displaystory.cfm?Story_ID=1- 842437
http://www.carview.co.jp/magazine/special/7seaterminivan/default.- asp
while Toyata Wish wins in Interior and Utility. Overall, Wish no.1, Latitude No.2
Looks to me like Honda may have changed their plans, since it is obviously not here and there are no previews in any of the magazines. It would be nice if someone in the auto press would follow up with the analyst who made the original statement to see what is up. There has been total silence about this model since the fall statement.
but much nicer styling inside & out) is taking sales away from Honda, as will the new Mitsubishi Grandis. Apparently Honda is rushing a revamped Odyssey (like the original one they sold here) to market a year ahead of schedule and are giving facelifts to their other products. One would think the Stream/Latitude should get a total revamp next year or it will lose market share big time. Perhaps that's the one we'll get.
I suppose it is no accident that there are a numuber of CDN flags in this discussion, since traditionally Canadians have tended to buy one size down from Americans. Unfortunately I don't think the CDN market is big enough to make this happen.
Also interesting that inspite of the fact that there are many sizes of small vans in Japan, the Matrix/Vibe is completely different from any of them and was GM's idea to start with. The Japanese seem very reluctant to import these smaller vans.
Or even hatchbacks - even though young males go for hatchbacks. I don't understand why the two door hatchback Corolla wasn't part of Scion. But I am OT now.
Release: 2005 model year at the earliest.
http://www.honda.co.jp/HR-V/
2. In response, we are going to see Mitsubishi bring over the Grandis and VW bring over the Touran, but the US versions of these tall wagons will likely only have two rows of seats to accommodate American passenger sizes.
3. I wouldn't put it above Nissan to bring over a variant of the new version of the Renault Scenic to the US market. The Scenic most likely meets the tough crash standards of the European New Car Assessment Programme (NCAP) test, which is very close to the tests done by the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety (IIHS). Swap out the original Renault drivetrain with one from the current 2.5-liter I-4 engine used on the Nissan Altima, and that is the Nissan competitor to the Honda Latitude.
I like that idea.
2+2+2 with a 2+3+2 option is exactly what the first gen Odyssey had. I think they should bring that model back, it has been greatly improved, and now may be the right time, especially since it does not have to compete with larger vans - The U.S. Odyssey can do that.
there's a rumor that Honda will show it at the Detroit International Auto Show in January 2004.
The extra height of the vanlets means a lot to those of us that haul stuff rather than people. Not that Honda has a station wagon anyway, last time I checked.
Having said that, I'd be first to line up to buy a JDM Ody to replace my 1st Gen, 1998 Ody, especially if it came with the available 3.0 V6 and the AWD system from the CR-V.
I've been wondering if there won't be an "urban" version of the Element with painted fenders, like the one shown on the show circuit. It would still have to be basic, or it would get into CR-V range.
Given the demographic miss, I think you might be more likely to see a car below the Civic than a Latitude. I am sure they will be watching to see how the Scion (US) and Echo hatch (Canada) do with young people. The Echo hatch is cute (IMHO) and cheap.
Still would like to see the Latitude though, perhaps restyled with some of the Jazz's styling cues. Either that, or a stretched, 6 passenger Element!
Of course, it was too late by then. They should have installed the 3.0 V6 from the outset.
I agree about the Element (and larger CR-V) taking the role of the Latitude.
I've read that the 98's actually get 1mpg better fuel economy than the '95-'97s. More power and better economy -- a winning combination!
And now, for the "Jazzitude"....
Sounds like Honda will replace it's slow-selling Stream with a big brother to the Jazz....should reach the UK by 2005...Please Honda, North America need this model too! I hope that it's in their development plans.
Info is here:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/ae_news_story.php?id=38267
Need a print copy to see the sketch...the most recent copy I saw on a newstand was a May issue and we seem to get them irregularly here, so if we're lucky, a print copy of the current issue may show up by September! Hopefully, a picture will be posted somewhere on the net sooner. I guess Honda had to do something....the Stream isn't selling well in Europe (the competition is better) and is being trounced at home by the Wish and the new Grandis. I think the Jazz is better looking and has a more innovative and flexible interior, so a big brother to the Jazz would suit our family just fine.
Pilot & MDX > $40,000 + all number of Accord and Acura sedans), they have no entry level model to compete with Toyota's new Echo Hatch (and the Scion models in the US), no sport wagon to compete with the Matrix/Vibe/Aerio/Protege5, no hot compact (the embarassingly under-tired, under- powered Civic Si has badly lost any comparison test in this area) to compete with the Mini, Matrix XRS, Focus SVT, Sentra SE-R SpecV and the Mazdaspeed Proteges etc. etc.
Remedies?....The versatile Honda Jazz would be an entry-level killer, the Si version of the Civic 5 door could hold it's own vs. the Matrix et al, and the 200 hp Civic Type R (with 17" wheels/tires) would be better equipped to compete in the hot sub-compact arena.
And finally, the updated Stream/Latitude mentioned above, based on a stretched Jazz platform, would give Honda a very competitive entry in an emerging category...sportwagon mini-minivan crossover....for those of us who need more room than a Matrix but for whom a megavan (can they really be called minivans anymore?!) like an Odyssey/Sienna/Quest etc. is overkill...
too big, to inefficient etc.
It's time to be innovative, Honda, and fill those gaps or risk losing market share.
Based on the Jazz, and powered by a 1.5, it will definitely be much smaller than the Stream and unlikely to be a 7-seater. As you say, it would be Matrix-sized, which is smaller than I'd like but that's where the market is right now, and would be less likely to cannibalize Element/CR-V sales. Certainly Honda looks like the odd man out by not having a 5-door versatile sport hatch. Hopefully an AWD version will come, although I worry that 1.5 might not be enough juice in NA.
If you go back about 100 posts, you will see info on the dimensions of the Stream, or I can re-post.
The Touran is about 172" long compared to 180" for the Stream. VW says North America gets Touran for '05 but who Knows? Touran is a few inches lower and I think about 2 inches wider then Stream. See VW Touran forum under Wagons, I posted a few sites. I believe the last generation Scenic is similar to Touran but it is higher. I drove one of these and I loved it. I don't know about the new Scenic which has unfortunately has gone over-the-top styling-wise. My impression is that in the "Jazzitude" we are talking about a car that is less then Matrix size with a sub-Civic wheelbase. I like small cars, but the Stream size seems to be the void in Honda's North American line up. If there is a Stream-size Latitude in the future for us, which I now strongly doubt, I think it would basically be a fixed up Element without the poor door design and flying brick styling.