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Honda Latitude
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Comments
The Latitude is likely to come first before any new SUVs, but I'd prefer that they retained the 'Stream' name.
What I really want is an Accord wagon - sigh! Maybe there will be a TSX wagon.
Another possible alternative?
By summer in Europe Ford will start selling the new 7 seater Focus C-Max. Whether they bring it to NA is a question. But if Honda and VW brings in their mini's in 7 seat config, Ford would be looking at it seriously. Personally I'd have 2nd thoughts on a Ford product, but it WILL help keep the price down.
http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORDwagon/
I expect the Latitude will get this kind of C-pillar treatment. Much more triangular or trapezoidal. This Accord Wagon is in line with the Civic SIR C-pillar treatment.
http://www.autoscoops.tk/
If it can take 7 people thats great. I always wondered being so long why it couldn't have 7 people.
"Honda will likely be the first up, with plans to market a version of its very cool Stream microvan to America next fall, rebadged as the Latitude. This Civic-based hauler seats seven in the home-market variant; here, its likely to accommodate only five, in order to give larger American bodies a little more legroom while preserving precious cargo space."
Now its due next fall and hopefully it will still have 7 seats as an option. Or this forces me into a Mazda MPV.
I agree, the 7-seater configuration should be the goal. A 5 seater wouldn't be as attractive to me. I'd probably go for an MPV as well.
especially with the possibility of an accord wagon
if hondas concerned with rear leg room why not just make the rear seats slide back and fourth when the jump seats are and are not in use
With the average age increasing for both Civic and Accord buyers, selling another 7 seat minivan is going to make that problem worse for Honda, if they are hungry for the younger buyer, like Toyota. The other problems I see in selling a 7 passenger version is that they'll have to stuff the 2.4 engine from the Accord in the Stream (that'll raise the price), and of course the very cramped seating. But power thirsty US consumers will still complain and compare it with larger minivans. And young people don't want a minivan. A cramped, underpowered, overpriced minivan label will be the death sentence for the Stream, just like it was for the first generation Odyssey.
I am pretty sure it is going to have the 2.4 engine from the accord anyway - at least that is what has been reported so far. How can having an extra jump seat in the back be a turn off for the youth market? They don't have to use the seat if they don't want to. If youth are buying this car for its image (like matrix) nobody is going to know how many seats it has just by looking at the exterior - especially if the rear seats are down. I also don't think many people looking at regular minivans will cross shop the stream and vice versa. 7 passenger seating is the latest rage in SUV's - and there is no market segment that is more image conscious.
Selling to older people is not a problem. They just want to sell their cheap cars to younger people so they can justify the small markup with the potential for future purchases of more expensive vehicles.
Could you imagine how many more 2 seater sports cars they could sell if they offered just one more seat in the back. You could put a child seat back there or your mother in law. Miata or S2000 or corvette? The usefulness would extend ownership of these cars.
Okay, not to be off topic, I think a smaller minivan/wagon is suitable in this market because the Ody is too big in my opinion. I would get an accord wagon but none is available and so, the Lat/Stream fits the bill well.
EP
Here in Canada, '98s Odys were going for CAN$30K, whereas Caravans were starting in the low $20s. Yeah, there's no question the Ody was a much better car, but minivan buyers are very price sensitve, especially up here.
Being based on the Civic, even with the Accord engine, the Latitude should come in at a more competitive price point. However, the Matrix will still likely under-cut it by a substantial margin, so going after Matrix buyers probably won't work.
Also, stylistically, you can't deny it is a scaled-down minivan. The angle of the hood and the low nose says "minivan", as does the cargo hold that is longer and more squared-off than a Matrix. Making it less useful by making it a 5-seater won't convince anyone that it isn't a minivan. Making it with magic rear seats for occassional use that drop into the floor are definitely the way to go.
It will certainly be sportier and a lot more fun to drive than a regular minivan, and will likely be bought by a younger audience as well as some older buyers who prefer the driving position.
As for the Gen Y buyers, that's who the Element is for.
The Latitude is a large station wagon/ small minivan. BTW I think it would look much better if the third window were larger like first two - don't really like the curved/tapered effect there.
I think it would require too much engineering re-work to change the shape of the rear window. I find it a bit too curved as well, but I like it better than a straight line. A bit of a curve helps give it a sportier look, as does the sloping roof.
I can see them being much more likely to install the Civic Hybrid drivetrain in the Latitude, especially if it also qualifies for the US gov't tax deduction.
I wonder if they will classify the Latitude as a passenger car or light truck? My guess is light truck so they can elevate their light truck mpg for CAFE.
107" wheelbase
180" LOA
66.7" wide
57.9" track
62.6" height
5.6/15.4/25.4 cu ft (158/435/718 cu dm)
Cargo capacity seems half of expected.
I sure hope that incorrect data for cargo capacity has been published. A CR-V has a cargo cap. of 35 cu ft with the rear seats up. The Latitude can't be that much smaller, can it?
Apparently Chrysler is planning to test diesels in the USA. My guess is that it will be a PT or a Caravan. Everyone will be watching carefully.
http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0210/17/b03-614328.htm
The third row of seats may represent a serious liability in terms of crash safety. If it shows up as a five-seater, that is probably the reason.
Paul Liniert publishes rumors. He probably gets them from the TH. I think he was one of the writers who forecasted a V6 for the 2002 CR-V.
The 2.0 and 2.4 engine blocks have the same external dimensions. There may be size differences in the other components under the hood (A/C, manifolds, air intake, etc.), but there is no real need to "shoehorn" or "stuff" the 2.4L into the same space as the 2.0L. The CR-V's I4 block is simply a stroked version of the Stream's 2.0.
Whether the Latitude receives the CR-V's engine or the Accord's engine (they are slightly different) will most likely depend on where the Latitude is built. The Element (built in the US) uses the Accord's engine (built along side it). IIRC, the Stream is built in the Japan. So it may get the block tuned for the CR-V (also built in Sayama). This is assuming that the Latitude gets a 2.4, at all.
IMHO, there is plenty of power available in the 2.0 for use in the Latitude. Those reviewers who have driven it have reported fairly peppy performance. If marketed as the vehicle for a start-up family, the higher mpg would be beneficial. That would also help distance it from the Element and CR-V in Honda's line-up.
A few suggestions for Honda:
1. A lighter contrast color for the interior would make it airier and brighter, compared to the monotonous gray/black interior that I saw.
2. Pop-up glass window for the back door, like the CR-V has.
3. PLEASE: Suppress excessive road noise! I ended up not getting the 2002 CR-V for that reason.
Finally, please don't make us wait too long - Spring of 2003 would be terrific!
WB: 103"
L: 179"
W: 70"
H: 66"
Cargo: 34 cu ft seats up
72 cu ft seats down
I can't imagine the Latitude having a much smaller (or bigger) cargo capacity.
Strager: you saw the Stream, how did it compare to the CR-V?
Just had another thought on the funky 5 seater that was mentioned as a car Honda needs to compete with Scion. Isn't that what the Element is for, not the Latitude.
Stream +
1. I prefer the wagon/microvan styling to the same old SUV styling of the CR-V, with that vinyl covered spare tire mounted on back.
2. Narrower width of Stream perfect for 2 car garage parked next to a van or large SUV. And of course it comes with folding mirrors.
3. Better gas mileage than CR-V
CR-V +
1. More cargo and passenger leg room than Stream. I didn't care for the 3rd row in the Stream, particularly because it really cuts down on 2nd row room, even when not in use.
2. Pop up glass window in the back door.
3. Choice of interior colors (beige/gray), unlike Stream (only dark gray). That dark gray makes the Stream look more cramped inside.
The only reason I considered the CR-V is that I got tired of waiting for a wagon/hatch from Honda, but road noise in the CR-V was a deal killer for me. A friend of mine in the UK says that the Stream also has a high level of road noise. It would be great if Honda addressed that before they start selling the Latitude in the U.S.
I found the Matrix to be a roomy but compact hatchback, and the higher seating is a good feature. However, Toyota insists on including "optional" ground effects (underbody spoilers etc) on all XR/XRS models, which I don't care for at all. That's one reason why I'd be interested in the Latitude - a 5 passenger version would be OK with me.
"Why doesn't NHTSA do rear impact crash tests?
Since the NCAP Program has a limited budget, funding is concentrated on front and side impact crashes which are responsible for the highest percentage of deaths and serious injuries. A relatively small percentage of deaths or severe injuries are associated with rear impact crashes."
There are a lot of rear enders but usually not serious. Nonetheless the new Volvo XC90 is my dream car. It has rear collision protection.
I'd like a vehicle that is a bit bigger (with 7 seats) but not a full-size minivan. The Latitude falls nicely between a Matrix and a regular minivan.
The US Gov't conducts numerous crash tests before a vehicle is allowed to drive US roads. These are scored on a pass/fail basis. If you go back to the NHTSA site and read up on WHY they conduct their testing, you'll see references to the existing crash tests. Read up on Pilot literature and you'll also see references to passing gov't rear impact tests.
I haven't been able to find descriptions of these pass/fail tests. However, several months back there was an article discussing how inadequate the US requirements are for seats. There is a regulation governing how much force it would take to make a seat collapse backwards. Apparently, the amount of pressure is similar to what happens when a heavy male tries to pull a wallet from their back pocket at a drive-thru.
They say that the Zafira is a better vehicle for space and utility (Note to GM: bring it over as a Saturn) saying "Flex7 is the hero of the hour, no question." However the Stream gets top prize, with the summary: "A great engine and fine handling give the Stream the edge - and it can almost match the Zafira on utility as well. Bland looks mask a truly inspired driving experience." This is high praise from tough, European reviewers.
They say that the mid-position of the middle row seats is very uncomfortable due to the narrow cabin, but there is a neat sliding mechanism that allows you to vary the legroom for mid-row passengers. This may answer our earlier questions about how comfortable taller passengers will be.
They give credit to the Stream for having the best handling, and the nicest, smoothest engine with 0-62 times of 9.4 sec. (the torquier 2.2 Zafira hits it in 9.0 sec.). It is clearly the driver's choice.
They complain about cheap feeling interior materials and very bad rear visibility (esp. for parallel parking).
I think the Honda Latitude (neé Stream) will definitely get the 2.4-liter L4 160 bhp engine from the current CR-V. The reason is simple: the Latitude and CR-V share a common platform.
I do hope that Honda does use the five-speed automatic from the 2003 Accord, though.
Now, if we can convince Honda to sell the new Jazz here.... :-)
odman, i hope bad rear visibility from drivers and outside onlookers view is enough for a new rear design. Yeah... just make it look like the Jazz and i wouldn't complain too much. Aawww... why not just make the Jazz bigger and stick a 3rd row Honda?
Speaking of 3rd row i saw that seat article varmin mentioned a while back. Here's something similar just posted in the MPV discussion. Scary stuff, maybe they should also improve rear collision protection while they're redesigning that behind.
The reason why the US-model Latitude will get the 2.4-liter L4 engine is not only compatibility with the CR-V (since both the CR-V and Latitude will share the same engine), but also the fact American drivers prefer engines with more lower-end torque. This is kind of important given that the Latitude will end up being the US equivalent of what the Europeans call a Multi-Activity Vehicle (MAV), a vehicle that looks like a tall station wagon but with very flexible interior arrangements.
You do know that in Japan and the UK, the CR-V comes with a 156 hp 2.0 liter i-VTEC engine (aka, the Stream's block), don't you? Clearly, the 2.0 version is also shared between these common platforms.
As for Americans liking low end torque, there certainly is some truth to that. However, the 2.0 provides enough torque to get around (per reviewers), and the CR-V and Element already meet market demand in that respect. I suspect the Latitude will have a greater focus on efficiency than power.
Yes, I know the Japanese market and European market Streams use the 2.0-liter L4 i-VTEC engine, but that engine has quite a bit less lower-end torque than the 2.4-liter L4 i-VTEC engine found on the CR-V. The 2.4-liter engine could be tuned to 190 bhp (which is what the upcoming Acura TSX will use use) but for the Latitude application it will have the same engine characteristics as in the CR-V installation.
You stated that the Latitude would likely use the 2.4L engine because it shares the same platform as the CR-V.
I'm reminding you that the CR-V uses the Stream's 2.0L in the UK and JDM. So the common platform argument doesn't mean much. Both engines are used for this "platform".
Add to that, the fact that a number of American journalists have test driven the 2.0 Stream and deemed it acceptable. I don't read minds or predict the future, but I would not be surprised one tiny bit if the Latitude came with the smaller engine. After all, when was the last time Honda gave us more displacement than we need?
Here's betting that it comes to North America as an overweight pig with power sliding heated leather stuff and a 2.4 or even v6 and slushbox transmission.
I was talking to a friend yesterday who is a diehard V8 'mericun vehicle (mostly fullsize trucks) type of guy. He drove a manual tranny escort and couldn't believe how quick a little 100hp engine was when freed from the evils of the torque convertor. I have to chuckle when kids on these boards talk about 150-200hp vehicles and claim they don't have enough power. It wasn't that long ago that the only 150hp vehicles were called IROC Z28 and Mustang GT.
We haven't had fuel efficient 1.6-2.0 engines in a decent sized vehicles for over a decade. It would be nice to be able to carry 2.2 kids plus groceries, luggage or an occasional guest and not suffer the typical 17mpg city that v6 minivans get in town.
When ANY MANUFACTURER offers a front drive (or AWD?), 7 passenger vehicle with a 4 cyl engine (preferably diesel- yum yum) and a manual transmission, I will buy it. It's hard to imagine that there isn't one vehicle like that offered in the North American market. All other markets are awash with them.
the civic was redesigned in 2001
and if honda follows their current schedule will be redesigned in 2006
if the latitude comes out in 2003 (and with the lack of information on it thats not likely until at least the end of next year as a 2004 model)
it will be a 4 year old design. while it looks good in most respects (my only beef is the thick real pillars obscuring the rear view ala pontiac vibe) it will still be dated and a newer version will follow in japan and europe in 1 year or so.
makes you wonder if honda will hold out untill the redesign in 2006
Would anyone be interested in this in a Latitude?
http://www.japanvehicles.com/newcars/honda/Stream/main.htm