Honda Latitude

civicw · September 2002

I'm speculating that Elliott is talking about an entry level SUV/hatchback like the HR-V, as well as a hybrid Acura SUV. But I've also read a Honda executive, Michiyoshi Hagino saying that there would be no new SUVs for the US until they had a chance to see how the Element was doing.

The Latitude is likely to come first before any new SUVs, but I'd prefer that they retained the 'Stream' name.

dudleyr · September 2002

Too bad it is not a couple more minivans, since they only have one here now. The Japanese Odyssey has been vastly improved since it was here last, and would fit nicely between the stream and the American Odyssey (le Great?). The Japanese Odyssey now has 60/40 split seats with a fold down center, as well as leather seats, and a 3.0 v-6.

What I really want is an Accord wagon - sigh! Maybe there will be a TSX wagon.

glycinemax · September 2002

After viewing the UK, German, and Japanese Honda web sites the Stream/Latitude would be on my very short shopping list if available in the U.S.. The Stream screensaver is currently playing on my CPU. Check out the commercial on the German site -way cool. Honda please bring the Stream/Latitude across the pond summer '93. Only two changes requested at this time are 1) offer the CTDi engine for B100 use and 2) make the third row seats removable. Please leave the side blinker lights and roof mounted aerial intact. The '92 Civic VX has been great (37+ MPG ave) but is a little small now with family and dogs. BTW, prefer 'Stream' to 'Latitude'.

mtbiker1 · October 2002

Don't know when or if they will get to NA, but both the VW Sharan (bigger) and Touran (Tour van?)seem to fit in this niche as well. Has anyone heard anything about them? Not to mention the Mitsu Grandis? We'll be in the market for a mini in late '04 and are very interested to learn what our choices might be.

marcb · October 2002

there is another topic for the VW touran here in the station wagons board. I would really like to see the diesel version come to NA.

Another possible alternative?

By summer in Europe Ford will start selling the new 7 seater Focus C-Max. Whether they bring it to NA is a question. But if Honda and VW brings in their mini's in 7 seat config, Ford would be looking at it seriously. Personally I'd have 2nd thoughts on a Ford product, but it WILL help keep the price down.

ropedart · October 2002

See the new wagon on the Honda japan links:

http://www.honda.co.jp/ACCORDwagon/

I expect the Latitude will get this kind of C-pillar treatment. Much more triangular or trapezoidal. This Accord Wagon is in line with the Civic SIR C-pillar treatment.

ropedart · October 2002

Ford Focus II looks good to me. See the sketch of station wagon at:

http://www.autoscoops.tk/

If it can take 7 people thats great. I always wondered being so long why it couldn't have 7 people.

ropedart · October 2002

This from Global auto net. http://www.globalautonet.com/pages/roadahead/101402.html

"Honda will likely be the first up, with plans to market a version of its very cool Stream microvan to America next fall, rebadged as the Latitude. This Civic-based hauler seats seven in the home-market variant; here, its likely to accommodate only five, in order to give larger American bodies a little more legroom while preserving precious cargo space."

Now its due next fall and hopefully it will still have 7 seats as an option. Or this forces me into a Mazda MPV.

odman · October 2002

I've read elsewhere that rear legroom is tight in the Stream. However, I'm not sure whether moving the middle seats back further is possible from an engineering perspective. It would depend on where they've put anchoring points, etc.

I agree, the 7-seater configuration should be the goal. A 5 seater wouldn't be as attractive to me. I'd probably go for an MPV as well.

dudleyr · October 2002

I don't really see the point if it does not seat 7. The third row can be cramped if need be, but if it is not there then this vehicle does not offer anything more than a Passat wagon or mazda 6 wagon, or even matrix. And it will probably not handle as well.

chris777 · October 2002

why bother with the latitude if it only seats 5?

especially with the possibility of an accord wagon

if hondas concerned with rear leg room why not just make the rear seats slide back and fourth when the jump seats are and are not in use

civicw · October 2002

I've read that the Stream handles almost like a sport sedan, and with 5 seats, Honda probably wants a competitor to the Matrix for the youth market.

With the average age increasing for both Civic and Accord buyers, selling another 7 seat minivan is going to make that problem worse for Honda, if they are hungry for the younger buyer, like Toyota. The other problems I see in selling a 7 passenger version is that they'll have to stuff the 2.4 engine from the Accord in the Stream (that'll raise the price), and of course the very cramped seating. But power thirsty US consumers will still complain and compare it with larger minivans. And young people don't want a minivan. A cramped, underpowered, overpriced minivan label will be the death sentence for the Stream, just like it was for the first generation Odyssey.

dudleyr · October 2002

A few thoughts!

I am pretty sure it is going to have the 2.4 engine from the accord anyway - at least that is what has been reported so far. How can having an extra jump seat in the back be a turn off for the youth market? They don't have to use the seat if they don't want to. If youth are buying this car for its image (like matrix) nobody is going to know how many seats it has just by looking at the exterior - especially if the rear seats are down. I also don't think many people looking at regular minivans will cross shop the stream and vice versa. 7 passenger seating is the latest rage in SUV's - and there is no market segment that is more image conscious.

Selling to older people is not a problem. They just want to sell their cheap cars to younger people so they can justify the small markup with the potential for future purchases of more expensive vehicles.

ropedart · October 2002

Yes, I am afraid the main purpose of the Latitude is to answer SCION offerings. In that case a light 5 seater would be the answer. I remember the original CRX came as a 3 seater in Japan. One seat in the back. But it came to America with just 2 seats.

Could you imagine how many more 2 seater sports cars they could sell if they offered just one more seat in the back. You could put a child seat back there or your mother in law. Miata or S2000 or corvette? The usefulness would extend ownership of these cars.

latclub · October 2002

I do like the SCION to some extend. It looks sporty. Hey, 3 seater sports car. How about the McLaren F1 street car. That's a 3 seater right?

Okay, not to be off topic, I think a smaller minivan/wagon is suitable in this market because the Ody is too big in my opinion. I would get an accord wagon but none is available and so, the Lat/Stream fits the bill well.

EP

odman · October 2002

Success or failure will depend in part on the pricing strategy Honda pursues. The 1st Gen Ody (and the Nissan Axxess) bombed because a) it was underpowered (until 98), b) it was too small for American tastes, but most importantly, c) it was too expensive compared to what else your money could get.

Here in Canada, '98s Odys were going for CAN$30K, whereas Caravans were starting in the low $20s. Yeah, there's no question the Ody was a much better car, but minivan buyers are very price sensitve, especially up here.

Being based on the Civic, even with the Accord engine, the Latitude should come in at a more competitive price point. However, the Matrix will still likely under-cut it by a substantial margin, so going after Matrix buyers probably won't work.

Also, stylistically, you can't deny it is a scaled-down minivan. The angle of the hood and the low nose says "minivan", as does the cargo hold that is longer and more squared-off than a Matrix. Making it less useful by making it a 5-seater won't convince anyone that it isn't a minivan. Making it with magic rear seats for occassional use that drop into the floor are definitely the way to go.

It will certainly be sportier and a lot more fun to drive than a regular minivan, and will likely be bought by a younger audience as well as some older buyers who prefer the driving position.
As for the Gen Y buyers, that's who the Element is for.

glycinemax · October 2002

Do y'all think there is any chance Honda will offer a diesel in the Latitude?

dudleyr · October 2002

I certainly would not consider the latitude to be a "light 5 seater", or a competitior to one. The Matrix weighs 2701 lbs, the Focus weighs 2,600, even a 4-cyl Accord weighs 3,000 lbs whereas the Latitude will be closer to 3,200 lbs (it is 3,100 with the manual tranny in the UK).

The Latitude is a large station wagon/ small minivan. BTW I think it would look much better if the third window were larger like first two - don't really like the curved/tapered effect there.

odman · October 2002

I agree with dudleyr on the classification, even though saying "large station wagon/small minivan" is perceived as the worst possible insult in this industry right now (I don't think the public has an aversion to these names as strong as the auto wags insist).

I think it would require too much engineering re-work to change the shape of the rear window. I find it a bit too curved as well, but I like it better than a straight line. A bit of a curve helps give it a sportier look, as does the sloping roof.

odman · October 2002

I can't see a diesel coming to NA anytime soon. Honda is still feeling its way with diesels, mainly because of European demand. I don't think they'd want to risk the teething problems in a diesel-averse market like NA.

I can see them being much more likely to install the Civic Hybrid drivetrain in the Latitude, especially if it also qualifies for the US gov't tax deduction.

I wonder if they will classify the Latitude as a passenger car or light truck? My guess is light truck so they can elevate their light truck mpg for CAFE.

glycinemax · October 2002

Please confirm I have these right...
107" wheelbase
180" LOA
66.7" wide
57.9" track
62.6" height
5.6/15.4/25.4 cu ft (158/435/718 cu dm)
Cargo capacity seems half of expected.

odman · October 2002

Yes, the figures you cite match what I've seen too (I recalculated the metric conversions). Weight is 3,130 lbs.

I sure hope that incorrect data for cargo capacity has been published. A CR-V has a cargo cap. of 35 cu ft with the rear seats up. The Latitude can't be that much smaller, can it?

odman · October 2002

I might be wrong about the CTDi.

Apparently Chrysler is planning to test diesels in the USA. My guess is that it will be a PT or a Caravan. Everyone will be watching carefully.

http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0210/17/b03-614328.htm

dudleyr · October 2002

Europe may require cargo measurements to be below the level of the window - that would be a much lower figure.

varmint · October 2002

A few notes on things not yet mentioned in this thread.

The third row of seats may represent a serious liability in terms of crash safety. If it shows up as a five-seater, that is probably the reason.

Paul Liniert publishes rumors. He probably gets them from the TH. I think he was one of the writers who forecasted a V6 for the 2002 CR-V.

The 2.0 and 2.4 engine blocks have the same external dimensions. There may be size differences in the other components under the hood (A/C, manifolds, air intake, etc.), but there is no real need to "shoehorn" or "stuff" the 2.4L into the same space as the 2.0L. The CR-V's I4 block is simply a stroked version of the Stream's 2.0.

Whether the Latitude receives the CR-V's engine or the Accord's engine (they are slightly different) will most likely depend on where the Latitude is built. The Element (built in the US) uses the Accord's engine (built along side it). IIRC, the Stream is built in the Japan. So it may get the block tuned for the CR-V (also built in Sayama). This is assuming that the Latitude gets a 2.4, at all.

IMHO, there is plenty of power available in the 2.0 for use in the Latitude. Those reviewers who have driven it have reported fairly peppy performance. If marketed as the vehicle for a start-up family, the higher mpg would be beneficial. That would also help distance it from the Element and CR-V in Honda's line-up.

strager · October 2002

I had a chance to check out the Stream while visiting Japan last year, and would be very interested in getting one, especially a 5 passenger version (the last row really cuts down on space for 2nd row passengers, even when not in use).

A few suggestions for Honda:

1. A lighter contrast color for the interior would make it airier and brighter, compared to the monotonous gray/black interior that I saw.
2. Pop-up glass window for the back door, like the CR-V has.
3. PLEASE: Suppress excessive road noise! I ended up not getting the 2002 CR-V for that reason.

Finally, please don't make us wait too long - Spring of 2003 would be terrific!

dudleyr · October 2002

The 2.0 sounds fine for me, especially if I can get it with the manual tranny. I just think Honda will use the 2.4 given how most other people feel about having a larger engine.

odman · October 2002

Honda doesn't really install engines as big as North Americans like. Their philosophy leans towards smaller and more efficient. Remember how anemic the first CR-V's were before the '99 compression bump. I'd expect to see the Latitude come with the 2.0, not the 2.4. This is how it is sold elsewhere (along with a 1.7), and as varmint points out, it has sufficient power with the 2.0. As long as 0-60 times are in the 9-10 second range, as they appear to be in the tests I've seen, then the 2.0 will be the one that comes.

odman · October 2002

Dudleyr is probably right on the way cargo capacity is calculated in Europe. The CR-V's dimensions are all within a couple of inches of the Stream's (height of the CRV is taller, but then it has a higher floor):

WB: 103"
L: 179"
W: 70"
H: 66"
Cargo: 34 cu ft seats up
72 cu ft seats down

I can't imagine the Latitude having a much smaller (or bigger) cargo capacity.

Strager: you saw the Stream, how did it compare to the CR-V?

dudleyr · October 2002

I would prefer the 2.0 for two reasons. Better fuel economy, and being smaller it is more likely to come with the manual tranny - kinda like the way it is on the dash like the Civic Si. So I do hope they use it - I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Just had another thought on the funky 5 seater that was mentioned as a car Honda needs to compete with Scion. Isn't that what the Element is for, not the Latitude.

strager · October 2002

Here's what I thought of the Stream compared to the CR-V:

Stream +
1. I prefer the wagon/microvan styling to the same old SUV styling of the CR-V, with that vinyl covered spare tire mounted on back.
2. Narrower width of Stream perfect for 2 car garage parked next to a van or large SUV. And of course it comes with folding mirrors.
3. Better gas mileage than CR-V

CR-V +
1. More cargo and passenger leg room than Stream. I didn't care for the 3rd row in the Stream, particularly because it really cuts down on 2nd row room, even when not in use.
2. Pop up glass window in the back door.
3. Choice of interior colors (beige/gray), unlike Stream (only dark gray). That dark gray makes the Stream look more cramped inside.

The only reason I considered the CR-V is that I got tired of waiting for a wagon/hatch from Honda, but road noise in the CR-V was a deal killer for me. A friend of mine in the UK says that the Stream also has a high level of road noise. It would be great if Honda addressed that before they start selling the Latitude in the U.S.

odman · October 2002

That's a very good point -- North Americans don't like noisy cars, especially family vehicles like vans. Adding insulation isn't a big deal. Hopefully Honda can address it before the car comes. Thanks for your comparison note.

jvkalra · October 2002

Just wondering if those of you interested in the Latitude have considered the Toyota Matrix?

I found the Matrix to be a roomy but compact hatchback, and the higher seating is a good feature. However, Toyota insists on including "optional" ground effects (underbody spoilers etc) on all XR/XRS models, which I don't care for at all. That's one reason why I'd be interested in the Latitude - a 5 passenger version would be OK with me.

ropedart · October 2002

There are no regulations or tests for rear impact safety other than the 5mph bumper test. This from the NHTSA site FAQ:
"Why doesn't NHTSA do rear impact crash tests?

Since the NCAP Program has a limited budget, funding is concentrated on front and side impact crashes which are responsible for the highest percentage of deaths and serious injuries. A relatively small percentage of deaths or severe injuries are associated with rear impact crashes."

There are a lot of rear enders but usually not serious. Nonetheless the new Volvo XC90 is my dream car. It has rear collision protection.

odman · October 2002

I like the Matrix a lot too, although I like the styling of its Vibe twin better (even though the Vibe is more expensive and has a worse residual value). I've read that the Matrix/Vibe have uncomfortable seats and that their engines make more noise than torque.

I'd like a vehicle that is a bit bigger (with 7 seats) but not a full-size minivan. The Latitude falls nicely between a Matrix and a regular minivan.

varmint · October 2002

Ropedart - Actually, the IIHS rear impact isn't a safety test, either. It's measured in dollars and cents, not potential thread of injury. Regardless, the tests conducted by the IIHS and NHTSA are not the only tests modern cars must pass. Those are simply the only ones with results available to the public.

The US Gov't conducts numerous crash tests before a vehicle is allowed to drive US roads. These are scored on a pass/fail basis. If you go back to the NHTSA site and read up on WHY they conduct their testing, you'll see references to the existing crash tests. Read up on Pilot literature and you'll also see references to passing gov't rear impact tests.

I haven't been able to find descriptions of these pass/fail tests. However, several months back there was an article discussing how inadequate the US requirements are for seats. There is a regulation governing how much force it would take to make a seat collapse backwards. Apparently, the amount of pressure is similar to what happens when a heavy male tries to pull a wallet from their back pocket at a drive-thru.

odman · October 2002

Latitude fans -- RUN to Chapters/Borders or wherever you can get British car magazines. The November issue of CAR just hit the stands and it includes a comparison of the Honda Stream 2.0 with the Opel Zafira and the Peugeot 307.

They say that the Zafira is a better vehicle for space and utility (Note to GM: bring it over as a Saturn) saying "Flex7 is the hero of the hour, no question." However the Stream gets top prize, with the summary: "A great engine and fine handling give the Stream the edge - and it can almost match the Zafira on utility as well. Bland looks mask a truly inspired driving experience." This is high praise from tough, European reviewers.

They say that the mid-position of the middle row seats is very uncomfortable due to the narrow cabin, but there is a neat sliding mechanism that allows you to vary the legroom for mid-row passengers. This may answer our earlier questions about how comfortable taller passengers will be.

They give credit to the Stream for having the best handling, and the nicest, smoothest engine with 0-62 times of 9.4 sec. (the torquier 2.2 Zafira hits it in 9.0 sec.). It is clearly the driver's choice.

They complain about cheap feeling interior materials and very bad rear visibility (esp. for parallel parking).

raychuang00 · October 2002

Folks,

I think the Honda Latitude (neé Stream) will definitely get the 2.4-liter L4 160 bhp engine from the current CR-V. The reason is simple: the Latitude and CR-V share a common platform.

I do hope that Honda does use the five-speed automatic from the 2003 Accord, though.

Now, if we can convince Honda to sell the new Jazz here.... :-)

marcb · October 2002

ray, 2.0 litres at 0-62mph 9.4 sec is good enough for me. Thats actually pretty decent minivan numbers.... unless of course they can gear the 2.4 to be more fuel efficient. Then i wouldn't mind if it can accelerate faster... nya ha ha &-;

odman, i hope bad rear visibility from drivers and outside onlookers view is enough for a new rear design. Yeah... just make it look like the Jazz and i wouldn't complain too much. Aawww... why not just make the Jazz bigger and stick a 3rd row Honda?

Speaking of 3rd row i saw that seat article varmin mentioned a while back. Here's something similar just posted in the MPV discussion. Scary stuff, maybe they should also improve rear collision protection while they're redesigning that behind.

raychuang00 · October 2002

marcb,

The reason why the US-model Latitude will get the 2.4-liter L4 engine is not only compatibility with the CR-V (since both the CR-V and Latitude will share the same engine), but also the fact American drivers prefer engines with more lower-end torque. This is kind of important given that the Latitude will end up being the US equivalent of what the Europeans call a Multi-Activity Vehicle (MAV), a vehicle that looks like a tall station wagon but with very flexible interior arrangements.

varmint · October 2002

"I think the Honda Latitude (neé Stream) will definitely get the 2.4-liter L4 160 bhp engine from the current CR-V. The reason is simple: the Latitude and CR-V share a common platform."

You do know that in Japan and the UK, the CR-V comes with a 156 hp 2.0 liter i-VTEC engine (aka, the Stream's block), don't you? Clearly, the 2.0 version is also shared between these common platforms.

As for Americans liking low end torque, there certainly is some truth to that. However, the 2.0 provides enough torque to get around (per reviewers), and the CR-V and Element already meet market demand in that respect. I suspect the Latitude will have a greater focus on efficiency than power.

raychuang00 · November 2002

varmint,

Yes, I know the Japanese market and European market Streams use the 2.0-liter L4 i-VTEC engine, but that engine has quite a bit less lower-end torque than the 2.4-liter L4 i-VTEC engine found on the CR-V. The 2.4-liter engine could be tuned to 190 bhp (which is what the upcoming Acura TSX will use use) but for the Latitude application it will have the same engine characteristics as in the CR-V installation.

nwng · November 2002

should have put it in the civic ex, or like the UK market, a 5 door civic si

varmint · November 2002

Sorry Raychuang. I think you missed my point, I'll try to be clearer.

You stated that the Latitude would likely use the 2.4L engine because it shares the same platform as the CR-V.

I'm reminding you that the CR-V uses the Stream's 2.0L in the UK and JDM. So the common platform argument doesn't mean much. Both engines are used for this "platform".

Add to that, the fact that a number of American journalists have test driven the 2.0 Stream and deemed it acceptable. I don't read minds or predict the future, but I would not be surprised one tiny bit if the Latitude came with the smaller engine. After all, when was the last time Honda gave us more displacement than we need?

mrnimmo · November 2002

or even the 1.7 with a 6 speed manual and 7 seats (even if its a redesign making the second row leg room larger at the expense of the the third row).

Here's betting that it comes to North America as an overweight pig with power sliding heated leather stuff and a 2.4 or even v6 and slushbox transmission.

I was talking to a friend yesterday who is a diehard V8 'mericun vehicle (mostly fullsize trucks) type of guy. He drove a manual tranny escort and couldn't believe how quick a little 100hp engine was when freed from the evils of the torque convertor. I have to chuckle when kids on these boards talk about 150-200hp vehicles and claim they don't have enough power. It wasn't that long ago that the only 150hp vehicles were called IROC Z28 and Mustang GT.

We haven't had fuel efficient 1.6-2.0 engines in a decent sized vehicles for over a decade. It would be nice to be able to carry 2.2 kids plus groceries, luggage or an occasional guest and not suffer the typical 17mpg city that v6 minivans get in town.

When ANY MANUFACTURER offers a front drive (or AWD?), 7 passenger vehicle with a 4 cyl engine (preferably diesel- yum yum) and a manual transmission, I will buy it. It's hard to imagine that there isn't one vehicle like that offered in the North American market. All other markets are awash with them.

chris777 · November 2002

I was looking around the other night and I got to thinking.
the civic was redesigned in 2001
and if honda follows their current schedule will be redesigned in 2006
if the latitude comes out in 2003 (and with the lack of information on it thats not likely until at least the end of next year as a 2004 model)
it will be a 4 year old design. while it looks good in most respects (my only beef is the thick real pillars obscuring the rear view ala pontiac vibe) it will still be dated and a newer version will follow in japan and europe in 1 year or so.
makes you wonder if honda will hold out untill the redesign in 2006

odman · December 2002

I stumbled across this site on Japanese autos and see that in Japan you can get an AWD Stream. I imagine it uses the Realtime AWD system from the CR-V.

Would anyone be interested in this in a Latitude?

http://www.japanvehicles.com/newcars/honda/Stream/main.htm

varmint · December 2002

Yep, there has always been an RT4WD version, though it only comes with the 1.7L engine (last time I checked). The 2.0 model is FWD only.

raychuang00 · December 2002

I think the Honda Latitude will drive well, given that it'll probably use the 2.4-liter L4 iVTEC drivetrain used on the 2003 Accord--including the 5-speed automatic transmission. Given that the Latitude will probably weigh almost the same as the 2003 Accord with the L4 engine, performance fortunately won't be slow.

odman · December 2002

Is there any chance the Latitude will be coming to the LA or Detroit Auto Show? Anyone know?

Honda Latitude

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