Not that I'm interested (as stated before, the Odyssey et al are way too big for our needs) but if that's the new Ody, Honda has succeeded in making what was a fairly attractive-looking minivan unattractive.
It seems to be a pretty good summary, although I don't understand Japanese. Good pix though. Mazda Premacy (the last place finisher) will become the Mazda4 (based on the new 3). It looks to seat 7 and have sliders as opposed to it's sister car, the Ford CMAX, which has been limited to 5 seats and has conventional doors. Stream seems to have the edge in performance but Wish is ahead pretty well everywhere else (save for styling, which is subjective). Wish's seats seem to fold a little better into the floor than the Stream's. Would be nice to see any or all of the above here in good old NA. On a side note.....sat in a Suzuki XL-7 the other day. Front seats were ok, middle row not very comfortable and the 3rd row....well, I could get in there, and if the middle row was slid forward, have enough room for my feet/legs but the seatback was below my shoulderblades...ok for small kids only, I guess. The truck layout/ladder frame/rear-four wheel-drive really compromise the interior space. I'd be willing to bet that any of the front drive, car-based mini-minivans would be far more accomodating. Another strike against the XL-7 is poor gas mileage and the fact that the 7 seat version is more expensive than an MPV. Looks like the MPV will be the one for us unless someone gets their act together and brings over a Grandis/Stream-Latitude/Wish before 2005-6.
There's a section "What's NEW". It shows the specifications for the cars. Both the Toyota WISH and Honda Stream are listed. Picture of the Stream is the present one being sold. I'm sure the NEW Stream will be there. We'll just have to wait another month.
Also I called Toyota asking about the WISH. They had no information at this time. I did go to their OWNERS page and asked that the WISH be brought to NA especially now that Honda has stated that the Latitude is coming. Every little bit helps.
Here's the best pic yet of the new Stream. http://autoascii.jp/issue/2003/0924/article54088_1.images/56158.j- pg As you can see, it's pretty much just a freshening like the Civic line has gotten this year. While the front end looks a little bolder (and I guess the rear is jazzed-up a bit too), the side still looks a bit meek (the smallish tires and ugly wheels don't help). I saw a smaller pic with nicer wheels and a grill more similar to the new Civic......I'll try to post that as well.
Not a whole lot of good pics yet....saw the movies with no sound, 3d views etc. I like the new, more aggressive grille (especially the "Absolute" version....both the 2.0 and the 2.0 Absolute look the best....wheels and tires help. 15" seems to be standard but 16's are available. Interior looks a little fresher too. Sounds like they improved things structurally as well. All in all, I guess it's a bit like Ford's Freestar....not a new design, but a fairly substantial freshening. Anyway, I'd like to see it here, in it's 7 seat form, as the 2004 Latitude.
Thanks for the info. It doesn't look bad at all. Like you say with 16" wheels and dressed up not bad looking at all. Now let's hope it get's the 2.4 160hp for NA in the Latitude..
If the Stream does not come yep the choice is the Mazda MPV. I heard that its being refreshed but I saw spy pics and its not much. In fact the present one I think I like better. too bad.
Good to see some large pics and some good interior shots as well. I guess there are basically 2 versions, a plain-jane and a sport. I have to question why Honda went to the expense of having 2 different grills/front bumper combos. Also, some models have amber rear turn signals (prefered) at the base of the tailight cluster while others are just red. And the positioning of the red marker lights in the rear bumper varies slightly as well. Wouldn't it be cheaper to produce just one good-looking variation and then dress up the sport model with bigger wheels & tires etc. Also, the flip-up table between the front seats should have 2 cup holders. All-in-all, though, I think the new Stream/Latitude would be just about perfect for us. Rear-most seat would be used very sparingly but I still want to have it for those times when it's needed. BTW, Ropedart....I agree with your assesment of the MPV......see my comment about the "freshening" in the MPV 2002+ forum. Basically, they took the sharpest, edgiest-looking minivan out there and made it look old and stodgy. Go figure.
In these 7 seat mini-minis, how does our super-sized axx fit in the 3rd row? Is it for children under the age of 10? And how do you get into the 3rd row
Definitely are not for supersized a**es. Depending on the vehicle, most children will be fine, and it will be tolerable for smaller adults. I sat in the 3rd row of a Suzuki XL7 recently and was able to get relatively comfortable (the second seat will slide forward to help a bit). I'm 5'10'/180 lbs. The most uncomfortable thing for me was the lack of back support (the seatback only seemed to come part way up my back). Anyway, the point is that mini-minivans aren't meant to take the place of maxi-minivans.....anyone needing to transport 7 passengers regularly would be better off in a "maxi". But for occasional use - kid's birthday parties, an outing with Mom, Dad, Grandma & Grampa with the kids relegated to the third row, they are perfect. Plus, they give you more luggage room than the small hatch/wagons (Matrix et. al) when you're not using the 3rd row. BTW, to get back there, the 2nd seats usually slide and tumble forward.
Mini minis. I have a first gen Odyssey ( a little bigger than a mini mini) and I have more headroom in the third seat than in the front seat of an Accord or Camry that has a sunroof. Knee room is a little tight (you can't cross your legs), but there is plenty of foot room, and the upright seating position means you don't feel you have to stick your legs out in front of you to be comfortable. It also helps that this rear seat (as in the Stream) is only designed for two, so you are not crowded against the side where there is less shoulder and head room. FWIW I am 6'-0". My kids love it back there.
The Honda Japan site has more complete info and pictures on the new Stream (albeit in Japanese) + a teaser site for the new JDM Odyssey (even more obscure than the Stream teaser site was). www.honda.co.jp
Here's yet another mini-minivan....this one from Toyota.....that in some ways, is more appealing to me than the Wish. Sure the Wish is sleeker and sexier, but the new Toyota Sienta (not a misprint) appeals to me much like the Element does for it's sheer utility. Here is a vehicle that is 8" shorter than the Element (but with a 5" longer wheelbase) that has 3 rows of seats and actually looks less cramped than a Honda Stream/Latitude. It may be similar, in fact, the the Nissan Cube "cubed", although I haven't seen the dimensions of the Nissan. It has sliding doors in place of the Elements awkward cargo doors. It has an upward opening hatch (better than the Cube's side swinging door but not as neat as the Element's split tailgate) and uniquely folding seats that are somewhat better than the Element's arrangement. It's incredible the sheer number of these mini-minivans (and even micro-minivans) available in the Japanese market. While some are way "out there", others are attractive enough that I wish they were available here. I think the Sienta could form the basis of a pretty cool Element competitor for Toyota. http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/sienta/
That Sienta is too cute. Like Hello Kitty too cute. And cute is the Kiss of Death. Like the Neon used to say Hello until DCX discovered SRT4 sounds better. And the cute Scion xA is a flop. New Beetle sales are falling. Too cute.
Hi Folks- Just a friendly reminder that we need to stick to the title subject of this discussion. After all, we don't want to confuse the tourists. Please note: further off topic messages will be subject to automatic deletion.
but with Honda still on the fence w.r.t the Latitude (can we get a definitive answer Honda? Is it coming?, Yes or no? Is so, when? etc. etc.) it's easy to get off-topic sometimes. I'm scouring the net for some English reviews of the updated Stream......hopefully there will be something soon. Meanwhile, Honda, the ball's in your court. (BTW, Ropedart....I agree.....the Sienta definitely needs to toughen-up its "face")
Yes, I realize it's easy to go off topic, especially while we're waiting for more news to be released. That's why I started up the new wagons abroad discussion. You and others here seem to be quite knowledgeable on the subject, and I look forward to seeing you there!
An occasional off topic post is okay, especially if it's to compare features with the Latitude. However, once the Latitude is not longer in the message..., that's where we pretty much have to draw the line. Let's also not forget that people have taken time to come to this discussion to learn about the Honda Latitude. Thanks for understanding. ;-)
And now, back to the subject of the Honda Latitude!
has a review (in Japanese, of course) of the restyled Stream/Latitude.....at least it includes lots of pics... http://car.nifty.com/as/column/car_1/article_0310014332_1.htm ...just keep cycling through the article. I must say that the Latitude/Stream is probably the bare minimum in terms of size for a vehicle that would suit us. The Wish, although having similar dimensions, looks roomier and the seats appear to fold flatter. I still like the Grandis(Mitsubishi)the best, as it's size approaches Honda's 1st generation Odyssey.
I think the Stream/Latitude is conspicious by its absence from this interview about future Honda plans. Hope I am wrong, but I don't think this looks good.
I guess the present Stream will not come in. But I don't think the present Jazz will either. Its going to be a redone Jazz for the NA market for 2007?. Mainly to attract younger people. This would be the Latitude. The Stream may die but the Jazz platform could create an extended version to haul 7 people in its place.
BTW I think the present Jazz is too cute looking for NA.
I actually think the Jazz looks fine....kinda cute but more substantial than the Echo hatch. Combined with a roomier and more flexible interior and even better gas mileage, it would be a good 'fit'! I did hear rumours of a stretched, 7 seat Latitude based on the Jazz platform (to be about the size of the VW Touran. Maybe this is the Latitude that we will eventually get. Probably looking a 2006 at the earliest though.
Any chance the Latitude could be the just released JDM ODY and show up in NA Spring of '05???? Summer or Fall of '04 would be better for me. I like the rear side window shape and overall look better than the Stream. This would be much more affordable then the ODY (aka JDM La Great). Don't believe it would take many sales away from the CR-V, Pilot, or ODY. Would compete well with several other choices out there. Any rumors on CY05 intro.s? What is the HRV (smaller MDX) going to be called?
Just a thought the JDM Ody could become the Acura Latitude as its minivan. That division is not doing well. It has only one truck product the MDX. Trucks and minivans sell. Honda is behind.
If they do make the JDM Ody an Acura, I don't know where they'd price it....probably north of 30K up here, which puts a smaller, 4 cyl vehicle up against their own Odyssey....don't think that would work. With the Ody starting @ 32K and change, they should keep the JDM Ody/Latitude? a Honda and price it in the mid to upper 20's. Then, I think, it would be a success.
Here's a rough sketch: Honda Latitude/ JDM Odyssey $21-24K Honda Odyssey (NA Market) $24,001-$33,000 Acura version of JDM Odyssey: $31-33K (with a smaller V6 or high winding 4 cylinder, CVT and AWD) Acura MDX: $36-42K. The TSX is a four-cylinder, and it sells pretty well. So, a V6 may not be the key to sucess. Good Quality, Good Feature Content, Reliability, Safety, and a reasonable Price should make any car a sucess.
The dilema with a big Latitude is like the problem with the DCX 7 seat Pacifica. Its a slow seller. Why??? So no real market? Would a small 7 seater Latitude sell well?
As long as the Latitude were to be priced somewhere between the current small hatch/wagons (Matrix, Vibe etc.) and the maxi/minivans, I think it would do ok. Vibe & Matrix top out in the mid 20's in Canada and the vans start at 30K for the base Sienna and 32&change for the Odyssey and Quest. MPV's run from about 26-28K up to the mid 30's. I think the Latitude, if it's Stream-based, should run from 23k to 28k, and if it's JDM Odyssey-based, from 25k to 30k.
The Latitude, if JDM Odyssey based, should NOT be $25-$30K. You would be overlapping the Odyssey. So, bring the Odyssey down to about $21-$26K, and when they get enough money, sell em' an Odyssey!!!!! Also, an Acura version could start at $29,999 and top out at $35K for all those people who want an Acura Utility Vehicle yet can't afford the MDX.
The Pacifica seats 6 (not 7 - and the rear seat is even smaller than in the Latitude) costs 50% more than a Latitude would, and guzzles 50% more gas. Reliability is also a question mark. I doubt its sales success (or lack therof) can be compared to the Latitude.
Personally, I still think Honda will likely show the North American version of the newly-revised Honda Stream (as the Honda Latitude) at the Detroit International Auto Show in January 2004, with the car going on sale probably the Summer of 2004 as a 2005 model.
I think it's very likely now that the Latitude will essentially use a modified version of the four-cylinder drivetrain introduced on the 2003 US-market Honda Accord (2.4-liter I-4 160 bhp engine with either five-speed automatic or six-speed manual transmissions). Given that the Latitude will probably weigh not much different than the US-market Accord, the Latitude's performance and fuel efficiency should be pretty good.
Think about it: the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix twins are selling as fast as they can make them; I don't think Honda wants to concede this market to Toyota! Besides, I think there is the market for a vehicle in the Latitude class, especially nowadays with the high price of gasoline and the fact minivans are just getting way too big nowadays (they're almost as big as the older-model Chevy Surburbans!).
AGAIN! Mitsu can bring over the Grandis and clean the plate!
Unless there is a problem with crash test results, I think mitsu has a chance to KO Toyota, honda and nissan if they act fast enough.
And while you're are reading this please get rid of that stupid beak-looking front end across the lineup, look at the home market outlander frontend as well as the evo instead!
It looks to me that there is not much Honda can do in regards to a Latitude for NA. The $ exchange rate is bad and they can only mfg a cost-effective vehicle in NA if they want to sell it in NA, unless it is high-end like an Si. THey won't bring in a Stream that is essentially at the end of it's cycle, even if it is redux freshened style. The JDM Odyseey is more likely but still they won't do a complete tool-up for that in NA just to take away NA Odyssey high-profit sales. The best we can hope for is an Element variant. Say, just loose the suicide doors in favor of standard 4 doors, that saves about 350 lbs of reinfrocement and that can buy several inches of body and wheelbase stretch. Then make it 2x4 only and save the 4x4 pretext for the standard Element. Then make the fenders match the body color and maybe change the grille facia for identity change and maybe a tad more aero. Keep the nice tailgate/hatch which is superior to the CRV swinging hatch. There you go, an Element variant off the same production line, cost-effective and offering a practical high volume interior. Weight stays the same, drive train stays the same. It's not really a CRV, the roof is higher and the floor is lower and it's less SUV biased. I would not expect Honda to do anything beyond a variant until the new Stream/Civic platform debuts. WHy should they? They have the mainstream bases covered with CRV, Element and Odyssey and at least 2 of these are priced for respectable profit. I wish it was otherwise.... FWIW.
Comments
http://www.carview.co.jp/magazine/special/7seaterminivan/
You would think they at least Honda and Toyota would bring them over. It appears the Toyota Wish won the comparison.
On a side note.....sat in a Suzuki XL-7 the other day. Front seats were ok, middle row not very comfortable and the 3rd row....well, I could get in there, and if the middle row was slid forward, have enough room for my feet/legs but the seatback was below my shoulderblades...ok for small kids only, I guess. The truck layout/ladder frame/rear-four wheel-drive really compromise the interior space. I'd be willing to bet that any of the front drive, car-based mini-minivans would be far more accomodating. Another strike against the XL-7 is poor gas mileage and the fact that the 7 seat version is more expensive than an MPV. Looks like the MPV will be the one for us unless someone gets their act together and brings over a Grandis/Stream-Latitude/Wish before 2005-6.
http://www.motorshow.or.jp/eng/
There's a section "What's NEW". It shows the specifications for the cars. Both the Toyota WISH and Honda Stream are listed. Picture of the Stream is the present one being sold. I'm sure the NEW Stream will be there. We'll just have to wait another month.
Also I called Toyota asking about the WISH. They had no information at this time. I did go to their OWNERS page and asked that the WISH be brought to NA especially now that Honda has stated that the Latitude is coming. Every little bit helps.
http://autoascii.jp/issue/2003/0924/article54088_1.images/56158.j- pg
As you can see, it's pretty much just a freshening like the Civic line has gotten this year. While the front end looks a little bolder (and I guess the rear is jazzed-up a bit too), the side still looks a bit meek (the smallish tires and ugly wheels don't help). I saw a smaller pic with nicer wheels and a grill more similar to the new Civic......I'll try to post that as well.
http://www.honda.co.jp/STREAM/index.html
Sounds like they improved things structurally as well. All in all, I guess it's a bit like Ford's Freestar....not a new design, but a fairly substantial freshening. Anyway, I'd like to see it here, in it's 7 seat form, as the 2004 Latitude.
Hopefully we'll get some English info soon on Honda's world press site.
BTW, Ropedart....I agree with your assesment of the MPV......see my comment about the "freshening" in the MPV 2002+ forum. Basically, they took the sharpest, edgiest-looking
minivan out there and made it look old and stodgy.
Go figure.
I sat in the 3rd row of a Suzuki XL7 recently and was able to get relatively comfortable (the second seat will slide forward to help a bit). I'm 5'10'/180 lbs. The most uncomfortable thing for me was the lack of back support (the seatback only seemed to come part way up my back). Anyway, the point is that mini-minivans aren't meant to take the place of maxi-minivans.....anyone needing to transport 7 passengers regularly would be better off in a "maxi". But for occasional use - kid's birthday parties, an outing with Mom, Dad, Grandma & Grampa with the kids relegated to the third row, they are perfect. Plus, they give you more luggage room than the small hatch/wagons (Matrix et. al) when you're not using the 3rd row. BTW, to get back there, the 2nd seats usually slide and tumble forward.
www.honda.co.jp
Max power(NET) 113(154)
Max torque(NET) 186(19.0)
What does that mean to us??
It has a 5 speed automatic and not 4 speed. That's good.
appeals to me much like the Element does for it's sheer utility. Here is a vehicle that is 8" shorter than the Element (but with a 5" longer wheelbase) that has 3 rows of seats and actually looks less cramped than a Honda Stream/Latitude.
It may be similar, in fact, the the Nissan Cube "cubed", although I haven't seen the dimensions of the Nissan. It has sliding doors in place of the Elements awkward cargo doors. It has an upward opening hatch (better than the Cube's side swinging door but not as neat as the Element's split tailgate) and uniquely folding seats that are somewhat better than the Element's arrangement. It's incredible the sheer number of these mini-minivans (and even micro-minivans) available in the Japanese market. While some are way "out there", others are attractive enough that I wish they were available here. I think the Sienta could form the basis of a pretty cool Element competitor for Toyota.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/sienta/
The good news is I started up a new discussion where you can continue discussing other wagons abroad: Wagons not available in the US - Wish they were here! I look forward to seeing you there! ;-)
And let's get back to the subject of the Honda Latitude. Thank!
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
it's easy to get off-topic sometimes. I'm scouring the net for some English reviews of the updated Stream......hopefully there will be something soon. Meanwhile, Honda, the ball's in your court.
(BTW, Ropedart....I agree.....the Sienta definitely needs to toughen-up its "face")
An occasional off topic post is okay, especially if it's to compare features with the Latitude. However, once the Latitude is not longer in the message..., that's where we pretty much have to draw the line. Let's also not forget that people have taken time to come to this discussion to learn about the Honda Latitude. Thanks for understanding. ;-)
And now, back to the subject of the Honda Latitude!
Revka
Host of Hatchbacks & Wagons
http://car.nifty.com/as/column/car_1/article_0310014332_1.htm
...just keep cycling through the article. I must say that the Latitude/Stream is probably the bare minimum in terms of size for a vehicle that would suit us. The Wish, although having similar dimensions, looks roomier and the seats appear to fold flatter. I still like the Grandis(Mitsubishi)the best, as it's size approaches Honda's 1st generation Odyssey.
http://car.nifty.com/as/column/car_1/article_0310014332_4.htm
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_honda_build_sut/index.htm
BTW I think the present Jazz is too cute looking for NA.
Combined with a roomier and more flexible interior and even better gas mileage, it would be a good 'fit'! I did hear rumours of a stretched, 7 seat Latitude based on the Jazz platform (to be about the size of the VW Touran. Maybe this is the Latitude that we will eventually get. Probably looking a 2006 at the earliest though.
Honda Latitude/ JDM Odyssey $21-24K
Honda Odyssey (NA Market) $24,001-$33,000
Acura version of JDM Odyssey: $31-33K (with a smaller V6 or high winding 4 cylinder, CVT and AWD)
Acura MDX: $36-42K.
The TSX is a four-cylinder, and it sells pretty well. So, a V6 may not be the key to sucess. Good Quality, Good Feature Content, Reliability, Safety, and a reasonable Price should make any car a sucess.
I think it's very likely now that the Latitude will essentially use a modified version of the four-cylinder drivetrain introduced on the 2003 US-market Honda Accord (2.4-liter I-4 160 bhp engine with either five-speed automatic or six-speed manual transmissions). Given that the Latitude will probably weigh not much different than the US-market Accord, the Latitude's performance and fuel efficiency should be pretty good.
Think about it: the Pontiac Vibe/Toyota Matrix twins are selling as fast as they can make them; I don't think Honda wants to concede this market to Toyota! Besides, I think there is the market for a vehicle in the Latitude class, especially nowadays with the high price of gasoline and the fact minivans are just getting way too big nowadays (they're almost as big as the older-model Chevy Surburbans!).
It maybe foolish for Honda to concede this market to others, but it looks like Honda plans to be foolish.
http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/story.html?id=086AE43E-F3- 1C-4618-A13F-F1FEB3A2DECC
Unless there is a problem with crash test results, I think mitsu has a chance to KO Toyota, honda and nissan if they act fast enough.
And while you're are reading this please get rid of that stupid beak-looking front end across the lineup, look at the home market outlander frontend as well as the evo instead!