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Acura TSX
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P.S. That's Temple of VTEC, not Tower of VTEC. My bad!
That is the site's prerogative. If "we" (the Town Hall) do anything to get around that requirement, we would be violating their intellectual property rights.
So if you wantsta view the article, you gotsta make an account there.
:-)
It tells me I have to log in to see it.
Maybe there is something odd about it, I don't know -- I just want to make sure that we all understand that if a website chooses a method to protect its intellectual property, we must accept that and do whatever the site requires to read any information that it offers.
Sorry if my experience there is not typical, but I don't see anything in my way of viewing the article except that I have never registered there.
Oh well, it's not worth all of this, is it? :-)
Let's move on.
Don't worry about it. This is a most peculiar medium, isn't it! :-D
Am I the only one in the world that wants a stick shift, sporty sedan?
The dealer said they have 6 on order - all autos and one stick with NAV. He said they are being built in Japan starting March 12, so expect them in May.
I took an RSX out to see if I would like the 4 cylinder with 6 speed manual. I loved the stick and the power but the rest of the RSX was not for me. I had a 1992 Prelude but this RSX type S was not as nice. I am a tall and relatively thin guy, but the seat was too narrow for me -- it sort of pinched my hip bones. THe dash of the RSX also looked cheap -- hate silver dash elements that are obviously painted plastic. Infinity also seems to do this and it is a trend that needs to die. Real metal is one thing, like Audis. But painted plastic looks like a kid's toy. I want an adult toy!
The car was also sort of loud.
So if they keep the nice stick and nice motor from the RSX type S and change everything else, the TSX would be great!
I then went to the Honda store to check out an EX Sedan with a 5 speed and leather. Good luck finding one of those. Basically a special order item!
I guess the days of stick shift sedans are at an end!
Its enough to send you to Infinity's G35 sedan or an IS 300!
Maybe the TSX is designed to address this market gap. Or maybe I am the only guy who would really buy such a thing. Surely the Edmunds crowd would as well!
I really wish the TSX had come out with a RWD layout along with a small 2.5L V6/I-6...would have given the BMW 3-series a run for its money. Honda makes superb RWD machines (NSX, S2000) and I wonder how long it is going to take them to come out with a fantastic RWD sedan that will outhandle the benchmark - 3-series.
Later...AH
That might make using a stick more desirable for those wanting some more serious power.
The big positive in Edmunds' First Drive is that the handling seems to be as good as advertised. They said it was really sharp, along with the steering. Minimal body roll.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5809&sid=18- - 3&n=157
This review is extremely positive.
They said the weight is 3,230 pounds for a manual. Guess an automatic would be over 3,300?
Maybe Honda would be more successful than Toyota ... but maybe they wouldn't. I suspect they did the math and said they could get 90% there with four-cyl engines and FWD, while selling for $5K-$7K less.
I think most people who look at a $34K japanese sports sedan will buy the $36K BMW sports sedan that defined the segment.
- Mark
I've read that the car is pretty neutral, so just think about how much fun a little power-on oversteer would be.
If I may, the engines aren't as close in power as they may seem. Horsepower gets the headlines and is often used in bragging rights, but torque is important too. It comes down to how the engine is tuned. The IS300 engine produces 218 lbs/feet at 3,800 rpm while the TSX 2.0 liter produces just 166 lbs/feet at 4,500 rpm. That is a very large difference and one that you can definitely feel and use.
Lexus can probably produce 215hp out of a 2.0 liter engine too, but it'd be a dog with torque.
Please don't get me wrong, Honda's done a great job with the TSX's 2.4 liter engine. But even they can't produce miracles. But it'd be fantastic if Honda, in a year or two, could deliver a TSX Type-S with a 3.0 liter V6 or larger.
Unless Acura eventually goes with a RWD setup, I don't see any advantage to putting a V6 in it. If you want V6 torque and HP with your handling, there's always the Mazda 6s.
The other negative in Edmunds' First Drive is the general confirmation that the engine really needs to be revved to get good power out of it. That's consistent with Acura's specs. They say peak torque doesn't come until 4,500 rpm
Another of those reasons I have stopped reading Edmund's road tests. This is as ignorant statement as there can be, about the drive train.
I-VTEC kicks in above 6,000 rpm
Wrong basics. I-VTEC comes with VTC that operates at all engine speeds. The torque curve is virtually flat from about 2500 rpm to 6000 rpm and close to the peak value, and as good as it can be for a clean (LEV-II) 2354 cc engine.
Interesting that TheCarConnection.Com review raves about this same engine as being better than some V6s around. And I wouldn't be surprised if this car beats a lot of V6s in low speed acceleration (0-30 mph) runs. And that would be so much for the need to rev the engine high.
If an engine loves to rev, more often than not, it is seen as a weakness and that it needs to be revved. Well, that is where a little education might help the reviewers.
LSD:
I'm sure Acura could have added it, but that would come with its own baggage, in terms of added weight AND more importantly, cost. The target price of TSX is around $26K, and with the load of features that the car will come equipped with, it leaves little room to add a few more things and keep the pricing under control, something not many automakers do.
wmquan
If I may, the engines aren't as close in power as they may seem. Horsepower gets the headlines and is often used in bragging rights, but torque is important too. It comes down to how the engine is tuned. The IS300 engine produces 218 lbs/feet at 3,800 rpm while the TSX 2.0 liter produces just 166 lbs/feet at 4,500 rpm. That is a very large difference and one that you can definitely feel and use.
And you forgot the role that gearing plays. Similar HP can allow for the same feel (and use) by way of gearing. This is one of the reasons torque can be easily forgotten. The only advantage having more torque offers is that the engine can be geared taller to allow lower revs for a given speed.
Believe it or not, based on my initial analysis, the engine/transmission (6-speed) combo will surprise a lot of people. It will give the impression of a larger engine with the way it will pull. I have calculated about 0.60g at peak torque in the first gear, assuming 15% drive train loss (and that Honda is not underrating this engine), and that would be middle of the pack compared to cars that come with 3.0-3.5 liter V6 (and manual transmission).
In terms of cost, I'd glady give up the TSX's standard moonroof if its expense could be put against the cost of a good limited-slip. Don't need the fancy in-dash 6-CD changer or leather, either.
Yeah, but I'd bet there is a sizeable chunk of the TSX's target market who would think otherwise. And Honda didn't get to where they are by catering to the minority. Truth is there are a lot of people, many of which are driving "true sport sedans" such as BMWs, who buy this genre of cars for the image. Performance is secondary.
Some of the same arguments have been made in regard to the U.S. Accord's V6 vs. the bigger Nissan VQ, but dynamometer tests have shown how the Accord has severe drivetrain losses. Hopefully that's just a result of the family sedan treatment and won't be the same in the TSX.
For anyone who can understand the benefits of a LSD and would appreciate them, an extra $800-1,000 isn't a big deal. Shucks, I'd be willing to pony up extra cash for some bigger brakes (universally recognized as a weak spot for Honda/Acura autos), as well.
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=58735&pa- - ge_number=2
Here's a link for a 5 speed 350Z that loses the same percentage of power. Hondas auto is either very efficient or Nissan has a problem with it's stick.
"http://www.altimas.net/featured/stillen/dwarticle1.html
350Z with the track package. It was bone stock and spun the dyno 228.6 horsepower and 224.2 ft.-lbs. of torque at the wheels. Also 17%.
People shopping at $25000 entry level lux aren't expecting high anything. You get a base Audi 1.8T FWD, or a base 325I. No LSD, no nothing. A loaded 325i is well over $30K. Acura has more thn enough content for the price point. Trying to please everyone would just drive the price higher.
The fact that people expect a higher level of content is the pretty much the only reason why the entry-level luxury market exists (other than to pad car builders' bottom line, of course).
Even for a $25 entry-level sedan, I don't think it's outrageous to bank on getting most of the following features as standard equipment: auto climate control, one-touch up/down windows, power roof, in-dash CD changer, leather, power/heated driver's seat, TCS/VCS, EBD, the list goes on...
Although Honda has never been a company which allows buyers to pick and choose their options, I don't think it would be a bad idea if they started giving more options.
I really wish that instead of devoting all this attention to lessen the disadvantages of a FWD layout, Honda would spend more time on working off of a superb RWD layout, to make it a world beater. A large V6 in the TSX would be counterproductive due to its FWD layout. With a RWD layout, it would make a lot of sense.
Later...AH
I don't have a problem with a high-powered FWD car, as long you build it with every mechanical advantage available (within reason). My Prelude w/LSD gives me all the grins I could want without cranking up the pucker factor too high.
If Honda focused some additional effort on making their FWD cars' handling dynamics competitive with those from RWD cars, the RWD/FWD argument over tradeoffs would be mostly moot, at least up to the 9/10ths mark (which is a place most drivers never get to).
I am really getting tired of the bland Japanese looking sedans.
Honda/Acura::: Where is the 'tossable' RWD, 6 cyl in line, 50/50 weight distribution BMW 3 series and Lexus IS300 competitor.
I am really sick and tired of Honda always playing safe and perpetually sticking to FWD platforms and then pass them down as "Sport sedans"....Please!!!!
BTW--If you're looking for a tossable, 50/50, RWD sedan to run with the 3 Series and IS300, look no further than the RX-8. (That's where my gaze has focused as of late...)
BTW, I think it looks nothing like the Mazda6!
Audi A4 more likely!
Scott
Later...AH
Later...AH
Friend of mine sent this to me, not sure about all the details of the test. The Accord still acquits itself quite well, but it can't overcome 0.5 liters.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?C5BF223B3
Now, this all said, I'd rather have the Accord than the Altima! Sure as heck would rather have a TSX over a G20.
A rear-drive platform would take a lot of Honda development dollars that should probably be placed elsewhere. E.g. with better engines, hybrids, an small Acura SUV, their upcoming pickup, an Odyssey redesign, etc.
Maybe a Type-S TSX will make its way out eventually with some more power, LSD, bi-xenons, etc. That seems to be a perfect product strategy for Acura.
First, I am considering buying the TSX this spring but I think it is the kind of car that would neccesitate the manual transmission to make it the most fun to drive. I will be moving out to the LA area to start work and am wondering how 'nicer' cars than what i currently drive w/ manuals handle in traffic like LA. I currently drive a manual '98 Nissan Sentra and I know that when I'm creeping along in stop and go traffic, first gear is kind of jerky on the whole car. Seeing as how this is base model Sentra, I don't expect too much from the car and its not a horrible problem, but something i hope is non-existant in a car like an Acura. Its the type of thing that isn't so bad in Michigan driving but I think it would really get on my nerves in all the stop and go of LA. Could someone please enlighten me on if i should expect this from a manual on a TSX or on the differance between manuals on a economy car like a Sentra and nicer, sportier cars in general?
Also about the estimated sticker price of the TSX. I have seen a lot of estimates of 27K. Doesn't this price seem a bit too close to the price of the TL/CL?? It seems to me that they might position the price more around 25k-26k which would put it right in between the RSX-S and the CL. I mean if it was 27k...i think a lot of people might just drop the extra 1200 for the V-6, etc, etc.
I also haven't been able to find a board similar to the G-35 board: "how much did you pay".....can anyone enlighten me on how Acura dealers are in general with selling below MSRP/above invoice on TL's and CL's or just point me to a board that might contain this information?
Thanks!
I'd glady give up the TSX's standard moonroof if its expense could be put against the cost of a good limited-slip. Don't need the fancy in-dash 6-CD changer or leather, either.
TSX is supposed to be a near luxury performance sedan. It is expected to have standard features above everything else that the top of the line bread and butter sedan (Accord in this case) has to offer. It is part of the Acura theme, and to me, it makes sense.
That said, I would love to see Acura take another step and deliver a hybrid AWD TSX with 240-260 HP. But for my budget, and thinking a premium brand with the expected appointments, TSX would be a steal at $26K over any of its intended competition, BMW 325 included. I don't mind RWD this side of a racetrack, as long as the FWD is good enough and the car can perform. My Prelude, a car I loved, was an excellent front driver, and all that I expect TSX to deliver is close to that driving experience. Additional cost that TSX would require is accounted for in the features department (I paid $21.6K+TTL for my Prelude in 1999).
Drive by Wire Throttle? by sjmurray2
What is this exactly and what are the benefits?
A good thread...
National Post
stretchsje
Does the TSX have what it takes to compete with other entry sport-lux cars, or is it merely a rebadged EuroAccord?
A common misconception is that TSX is a rebadged Euro-Accord. The fact is, Honda isn't selling Accord with factory Sport Package in Europe. TSX is more like a combination of Japanese Accord Type-S (24S) and Japanese Accord 24TL.
wmquan
I noticed the power at the last few revs too. What's the redline on the two vehicles?
I believe,
Altima V6: 6500 rpm
Accord V6: 6800 rpm
Bonus:
TL/CL Type-S: 6900 rpm
TSX: 7100 rpm
IMO, the TSX is soooooo close to being what it wants to be, but ultimately fails due to a poor match with its powertrain. Having to constantly shift to stay in the powerband in not the same thing as "driver involvement."
Either way, when it comes to replacing my 2000 Acura 3.2TL with Navigation, I would no longer be interested in a Honda product, since their compromised FWD offerings do not really spark any passion anymore, for me, regardless of the sophisticated 4-cylinder engines they have been developing. Due possibly to their smaller size and smaller developmental budgets, they do not even have the resources to offer a RWD alternative to their FWD offerings.
I might be interested in possibly the next generation Lexus IS300, which hopefully would have all its boy-racer elements cleaned out and retain its gun-fighter handling reflexes, while tuning the engine for more power/torque and a possible slight increase in size.
Later...AH
You don't mind the notion of shelling-out $$ for creature comfort items -- we have different priorities, and that's fine. Obviously, the TSX is not a car I'll be purchasing. I don't think I'll find another FWD car that handles as well as my Prelude, so I'll be shopping only RWD and AWD cars in the future.
Either AWD (like my WRX) or a good RWD, preferably from a Japanese manufacturer.
Later...AH
As much as they'd like to think, Honda is not covering all the bases. The luxury/performance markets have changed, and Honda hasn't answered the call.