Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Acura TSX
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Oh gee, aren't we proud of ourselves in knowing how to get out of a front-end slide by using the throttle in a RWD. You know so much about cars, I am so in awe with your mind's capacity to remember such important driving lessons. Let me ask how you got into such a situation in the first place? Trying to be a race car driver on public roads again with your 4-door daily commuter? Not very smart for your own sake and the lives of other people who are sharing the road.
"Call it ego gratification if you like, but I prefer to call it control and safety."
Safety is about avoiding such situations in the first place by driving within traffic speed limits and slowing down in slippery situations, It's not about pushing your car to the edge while endangering innocent lives and bragging about how you know how to bring it back. Brag about driving your dedicated sports car on a closed-track on the weekends instead.
Besides, the TSX has stability control standard, so you wouldn't need to use that little throttle control trick to get out of a front-end slide. All this in a less expensive and more efficient solution than BMW's RWD.
OK, well the weight distribution in a RWD car allows for better braking, too.
Not very smart for your own sake and the lives of other people who are sharing the road.
But smart for avoiding other people endangering your life.
Ever try driving out of a front-end slide by using the throttle? Sorry to say, but it can't be done in a FWD car with an open diff. (Better not try the brakes, either. Whoops!)
Call it ego gratification if you like, but I prefer to call it control and safety.
Front end gives away, don't experiment, just let the car settle. Thats safety, and control. That said, cars, with different layouts (FF, FA, FR, RR/MR) may all require different methods of control. You just need to know it, not apply one standard way to all. Understanding this is about safety as well.
hunter001
None of Acura's FWD offerings are something that people would desire to own...it might "serve their purpose with competence"...but the "passion" is missing>
You speak for all! How do you figure? That said, passion is an interesting term. IMO, the way the word is used, it is more about taglines and music used in commercials.
BMW already has produced such car...the FWD MINI Cooper!
Maybe if I had the $$ (or desire to spend the $$) for a Bimmer as a summer car (or the extra $5000 to upgrade from a 325i to a 325xi) then this TSX-325 debate would make sense. For those of us who deal with snow 4-5 months of the year, RWD is not practical.
In Canada, the TSX is expected to be 35K. The 325xi similarly equipped is over 45K. Base 325xi is 42K I believe. We're comparing apples and oranges.
The TSX is, in my opinion, unique. For those who want the reliability of a Japanese "Big Three" car, the driving passion of a European Sporty Sedan, FWD so we don't do doughnuts on our daily commute Nov-April, the option of a manual transmission, a nice interior AND a price (in Canada) of 35K or less, what else is out there?
Mazda 6 has a cheap interior and questionable resale/reliability and Altima is all about power and not at all about refinement. Maxima has power, refinement and a nice interior but the design is outdated and the handling inferior. The new Maxima is just too ugly to even consider.
So what really is the TSX's competition? Hard to say. It all depends on your priorities.
robertsmx -- It isn't experimentation if you know what to do and have done it before. That would be considered "experience."
drivinisfun -- Slice it anyway you'd like, but the Mini hardly qualifies as a "practical" car for a majority of folks. It's a fun car, I'm sure, but not much more than a toy.
1wiseguy -- Oh, yes. The TSX is in a class all its own. Right.
I do an awful lot of driving in the Northeast, and it's funny how I see so few RWD cars swapping ends. Mostly, it's folks in front-drivers who think they can get by with all-season tires.
IOW, TSX is only marginally better as a "snow car" than a RWD BWM. Your first step if snow is a major concern is good snows tires on all wheels. Next step is AWD. Compared to these two steps, FWD vs. RWD is noise level. There are great AWD options in AWD sports sedans such as the WRX, A4, BWM 3-x, etc. And nothing from Honda.
- Mark
Don't get me wrong...every single one of these TSXs would be sold. No ifs or buts about that. It is just that I personally prefer something else. If I were looking seriously at such a vehicle, I would also seriously consider the current Honda Accord 4-cyl EX-L with Navigation. Compared to the TSX, it is a bit less sporty and a few features are not available, but it costs a lot less too, and is designed to take regular gas. It can also comfortably accomodate 5 people and a decent amount of luggage. I think the US 4-cylinder Accord is also lighter than the TSX, even though it is dimensionally larger. The Honda Accord 2.4L, will also yield mileage of 26/34 city/hwy, which is much better than that yielded by the TSX (was it 19/29 ??), if that is an important criteria for anyone.
Interestingly, all the 4-cylinder Honda Accords that I observed at a nearby Honda dealership, surprisingly had listed the Final Assembly point as Sayama, Japan. I always thought that the US Accords were built exclusively in Ohio.
Later...AH
as for the civic, they should of abandon their 1.6l engines altogether and gone up to 2.0l across the board. they're getting to heavy for such a small displacement engine. i also think they went too thin on the sheet metal and lost the solidity of the last model.
Later...AH
I think the TSX will turn out to be an excellent handling, nimble car. Will it handle as well as a bmw 3 series on dry pavement- probably not, but for most of us, it will do quite well.
With all due respect, you are mistaken. The point of my list was to indicate to you that Hondas were in fact my "cup of tea" at one point, but when it's time to replace my '01 Prelude, I will have to shop elsewhere.
Peoples' wants and needs in a vehicle are guaranteed to change over time. It's just a shame that Honda doesn't make anything that suits me anymore. Believe me - if they did, I'd buy it!
In the snow, FWD tends to be easier for most people than RWD, but a driver with some skill can make a RWD car do anything a FWD will do.
In most RWD cars on the other hand, only ~50% of the weight is over the driving wheels (rear wheels). Hence sandbags or other heavy things in the trunk, are needed to reduce this disadvantage in snow.
The earlier RWD cars, with no traction control systems and/or Stability control systems, used to be a handful in snow/ice, specifically in the hands of people who did not know how to drive a RWD vehicle well. But modern RWD products with all these stability aids and good snow tires, should do pretty well in snowy conditions. With a substantial amount of weight in the trunk and good snow tires, it should do as well as any FWD product.
Note: Cars like the Porsche 911 (RWD versions) do not follow the trend. The 911 has most of its weight (60%+) over the rear wheels and thus has no traction challenges in snow, even though it is RWD. Of course the AWD version of the 911 is even better, from a traction perspective.
In case of FWD vehicles, essentially, the front wheels are overburdened with the task of doing both the steering and the driving, with the rear wheels kind of flopping along behind (essentially doing nothing). Automakers can mask these deficiencies pretty well, which is what Honda does with its FWD products. But when it is a big torquey engine driving the front wheels, it is very unpleasant experience with the steering always fighting the driver through ugly torque steer.
In case of RWD vehicles however, the front wheels do the steering, while the rear wheels do the driving, which is definitely a more ideal situation from a handling perspective. The rear wheels do not flop along behind like a vestigeal organ, like with a FWD vehicle. From the point of view of the Automakers, it is much more cheaper to build a FWD car than a RWD product, in addition to the FWD vehicle having some packaging advantages.
If Honda builds a good RWD sedan (with handling comparable to their S2000 etc), I will give up my intention to buy the next generation Lexus IS series and will go with Honda, unhesitatingly, primarily because I love Honda products in many ways and admire Honda as a car company.
Later...AH
Distracted, unskilled and mind-altered drivers of both rwd, awd and fwd cars can be found in ditches and wrapped around lamp posts on a regular basis throughout the year.
Snow tires will make all cars go better in the snow. But, some drivers are prevented by budget, space, ignorance or inclination from utilizing them. Awd adds extra weight, costs more to buy and maintain and punishes mpg as well as turning many non-turbo cars with small engines into slugs. Rwd is better on dry pavement and a little worse in the snow for the average driver, though the difference is less for the skilled, experienced drivers.
Buy what you like and live or die with it. Just be sure to let the other drivers do the same.
If anyone can build a sedan with handling comparable to the S2K, I'll be lined up at their door.
Both the TSX and the RX-8 will be relatively low production so it should not be that hard to sell them to the people to people who are excited about them.
The people who say "Oh, shifting gears at 5,000 RPM on the RX-8 bothers my nerves. I must have a car that does not require downshifting to accelerate" will get something else. Same with people who say "For about the same price or less I could get a V6 Accord with more room and power," will go buy the Accord. This will leave the niche of people who want these cars as they are.
Looked at the Accord V-6 6 speed today. It's gonna be a tough decision in a few months when I get tired of the 03 EX-L whether to go TSX or V6 stick coupe. After driving my new(to me) GS for a while, I'm loving the sedan body style but I also love my coupe. But it's black though and I'm really starting to not like keeping it clean.
Hopefully this won't be a repeat of the MDX, where quite a few Acura dealerships charged above MSRP and/or forced options on customers. Guess it depends how good the TSX actually is and the final MSRP.
Iceman.. There's a method to the madness. It's manageable. Although having 2 incomes and no kids helps. Hang out in the Lexus forums then you can hear about people with real cash. People there are like " I can't decide between the new 7 series or the LS430". Or my wife wants an LS how can I convince her to get a S600". Stuff like that. I guess it's all relative.
Supposedly Acura is now putting more pressure on dealerships to not charge above MSRP. This after a lot of complaints about MDX pricing. Hopefully this is actually working. But one may not see $500 above invoice for a TSX for a long time.
In regards to what TSX is competing with.. All of that is just marketing blather. The main reason for the TSX is Acura dealers were crying for a 4-door to slot underneath the TL. They don't care what it competes with. They just need something to sell their customers that want another choice in the model lineup. By grabbing the euro Accord, they have zero development costs, and by only importing 15000, they can sell them all without discounting. The car is there stricly for the dealers. If you like it, and don't mind paying sticker, good for you. If you don't, they don't care, it will sell anyway.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
The low prodiction count is due to limited capacity. Honda no longer makes the Accord in Europe. All JDM and UK Accords are made in the Sayama facilities. They simply cannot build that many.
Otherwise, yeah, the TSX was a cheap way to get a new car in the lineup. It allows them to keep their entry-level customers and still be able to move the TL a bit farther into true luxury territory. (That's the rumor anyway.)
Bummer about the auto show. You'd think that Acura would want to show the car as much as possible before its release.
They also were wondering about the viability of the automatic-equipped version, because it's more money (and less room) than a V6 Accord or Mazda 6s. Uh-oh.
The steering drew some flack for being too numb, but they were pretty impressed, otherwise.
Big whoop there considering the price differential, because C&D found many, many positives with the vehicle. They did praise its handling, even though if at its limits it wasn't a 3-series. While they did complain about some numbness in the steering wheel, they thought the steering was good ("light, accurate, and nearly immune to kickback"). They also said the low-end torque was fine for around town, which addresses an earlier concern I had.
They praised the TSX's refinement, an important part of this vehicle. They said the manual shifter was like a "surgical instrument," though they said the automatic shifter was responsive but "too soft" for a sports sedan.
Unfortunately, this was sort of like an Edmunds review. The review is actually 90% positive, but it'll be remembered more for unbalanced sound bites like the TSX is "some tarted-up front-drive, four-cylinder family sedan."
So far, the reviews have taken very different perspectives. Some compare directly with the BMW, while others take a more realistic approach and say it's the best Accord ever. Certain aspects of the car's hardware have suffered from similar mix expectations. In one review the auto gear box is praised for smooth shifting and power that nearly matches the 6 speed. Another, like C&D, claims it's not sporty enough, but say little about how smooth it is.
It all depends on the writer's focus.
Most reviews are positive overall. If they weren't, mags would lose advertisors. It's those "bites" that make the difference. Or, more accurately, its what you read inbetween the lines that counts.
Saying it's a failure compared to the 3-series but more like a refined Maxima says a lot to me- more than anything else in the review.
There are three things that I look for in a good review: the good, the bad, and the measuring stick.
If a review lacks any positive feedback, chances are the author "just didn't get it". Even the Aztek (may it rest in peace) had some good qualities. Positive comments confirm the purpose of the car and give the reader a reason to care.
Negative comments are important to separate the men from the boys. A review that is completely positive tells me something is fishy. There are very few vehicles out there that are perfect. I don't trust perfect reviews. Without negatives, the reviewer would seem more like a press agent.
The measuring stick is a clear picture of what the author expected from the car. For example, a TSX review that complains about lack of content, buzzy engine, too many gears, and asks, "why doesn't it have two moonroofs?" is obviously missing the mark. Meanwhile, one that complains about getting a 200 hp RSX-S for less money is off-target in another direction. Writers need to give a clear description of their expectations, or there's no reference point for the reader.
Clearly, the TSX is intended to fill a hole in the Acura line-up and also present more of an upscale competitor to the Passat. It also matches up well to the Saab 9-3, Volvo S60 or Audi A4.
Although, at only 15,000 units, you have to wonder why they really bothered. Especially given C&Ds comment about how soft the auto is. They may have been better off throwing that powertrain and suspension improvements at the NA Accord as an "Si" or something(even though it still would not have had the snob appeal of a Passat et all). As it is, the TSX ensures that there will be no more agressive Accord variant to otherwise compete with the new Acura.
I guess we should be happy they made the effort, because the 6spd. manual seems to be a contender...
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5836&sid=17- 3&n=156
People will walk into the dealership and ask, "Can I get a TSX?"
"Nope. We've sold out. But here's a TL you can take for a drive..."
Agreed that the closest comparisons to the TSX may be the Audi A4 FWD, Saab 9-3, and the Volvo S60. The TSX does well against them, again depending on one's priorities.
When i finally do get to test drive this car, i doubt very much this is going to remind me of earlier maximas.
As for gas mileage, it's pretty crappy for a 4-cylinder, I believe 21-29 city-highway for the automatic, and about the same for the manual.
The TSX reminds me a lot of the previous generation A4's, only with a useful back seat.
Look closely at the rear seat in the TSX and you might discover that it's not much better than the A4's.
robertsmx -- "The driving wheels have nothing to do with it." I would suspect that for someone living in either the Snow or Sun Belt, the driving wheels will indeed have quite a bit to do with it.