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Acura TSX
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But now I have come to a crossroad, where Honda offers me nothing. I too will pay BMW money if Honda offered a superb RWD product that competes directly with it. There were rumors of a small RWD sedan from Honda that was based on the superb S2000 mechanicals...but those turned out to be unfounded, which sorely disappointed me.
I have driven the previous generation Accord Type-R in England and it definitely handled great but now it is time for me to move onto other products. I do have a fondness for Honda however, and hope they come out with something that will catch my fancy...the TSX certainly ain't that.
Later...AH
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
At the end of the day, all that matters to me is the driving experience. I'm not dismissing the TSX based soley upon it being FWD -- I think FWD w/a LSD is a more than adequate setup for most folks. To wit, my Prelude handles better than most cars on the road, regardless of what wheels they are driving.
What discourages me is that the TSX is yet another cookie-cutter sedan from a company that used to create performance and engineering benchmarks. In other words, Honda is not doing anything new with the TSX, and frankly, I need more than a feature-laden interior to keep me from getting bored with a car.
I'm currently enthralled with Mazda introducing a sedan-look hatch, $25k rotary sedan. Same with Nissan and their reintroduction of the Z. Chrysler is even impressing me with their concepts lately, and that's the last company I'd ever look to buy from. Toyota might bring back the Supra, and Honda... the TSX? I had hoped for something different, because we know the company is capable of it.
You and I may be among those who can understand some of the engineering advantages of the FWD layout of the TSX, but it's a given that the TSX will never play in the same league (performance wise) as a 325i or IS300. For some buyers, this distinction will be critical.
Let us leave fiction aside and take a look at the kind of buyers that get a IS300 or 3-series. This comes from my personal experience, having friends who drive a BMW because it is a BMW, not because it is a RWD (one guy didn't even know that his Bimmer was RWD).
The distinction is largely exaggerated, often, to make a point, sometimes, excuses. For 100% of my needs, all that matters is driving experience, not the wheels that power the car. I've not driven the TSX yet, but if it is anything like Prelude, I'm already sold. The luxurious appointments are simply icing on the cake. But, that's me!
What discourages me is that the TSX is yet another cookie-cutter sedan from a company that used to create performance and engineering benchmarks.
Interesting. You must have very high standards. IMO, TSX is anything but a cookie cutter sedan.
varmint
I'm enjoying how many posts here point out that the driving experience is more telling than stats, numbers, and engineering traits. Then they dismiss a car they've never driven because it has a FWD layout.
Good point. And this is more common with Honda+FWD than with say, Nissan + FWD or Mazda + FWD. C&D would go far enough to call Protégé a poor man's bimmer, or Audi A4 a legible competitor to BMW 3-series, but no matter what, FWD configuration is highlighted when it comes to a Honda.
Making an exception for the people you apparently associate with, do you actually think that someone considering the performance characteristics of both the TSX and 325i will NOT make a distinction between FWD and RWD? Are you unaware that the driving experience is in fact greatly affected by which wheels drive the car? (Ever driven a Subaru? Did you notice how it felt different?)
Chances are, the TSX won't match the handling abilities of the Prelude -- the TSX is longer, heavier, and has a higher CG.
Obviously, we have radically different perceptions of what the TSX represents. When I can tool on down to the Mazda store and snag a 6s and (for fewer dollars) get more space, power and and comparable handling characteristics, it's difficult for me to see how the TSX represents anything special in the marketplace.
FWD is always highlighted in Hondas because aside from the S2000 and NSX, that's all they offer. Yes, Honda is the leader in tuning FWD layouts, but I fail to understand why a company should be lauded for doing something well when it's essentially all they do. Kind of falls into the category of "reasonable expectations," wouldn't you agree?
It's been what? Maybe two or three years since the S2000. You want a brand new, ultra-performance, low-volume car each and every year?
I was going to move on to other subjects, but this can't get by without a response.
1. Honda is not (or at lest no longer) the king of FWD. I think there are several other manufacturers with FWD cars that are equally capable.
2. Have you noticed fuel economy, emissions, reliability, ergonomics, value, and chassis safety? Or is performance the only thing that can catch your attention?
3. Maybe you've heard of their engines?
I could go on, but you should get the idea. In every major category where Honda competes, their cars are either the benchmark, or highly regarded: Ody, Accord, CR-V, the MDX and Pilot. Heck, they even made the Element attractive to some people (you want unique?).
Tell me... If it is reasonable to expect more from Honda, what do you expect from the 6 companies that are more than twice the size?
In the real world, for most buyers, BMW included, RWD versus FWD is a mute point.
Chances are, the TSX won't match the handling abilities of the Prelude -- the TSX is longer, heavier, and has a higher CG.
Facts would be based on driving experience. Unless you have been behind the wheels of a TSX already, you just quoted an example of 'fiction'.
FWD is always highlighted in Hondas because aside from the S2000 and NSX, that's all they offer. Yes, Honda is the leader in tuning FWD layouts, but I fail to understand why a company should be lauded for doing something well when it's essentially all they do. Kind of falls into the category of "reasonable expectations," wouldn't you agree?
Honestly, I would love to see Honda develop a RWD platform and a few models using it. But realistically, I laud Honda for doing what it does AND wish for more for what it doesn't. As a buyer, my preference at this point is a value oriented car, something that I see as a strength, not weakness. Just a difference in our opinion and approach, I guess.
Chances are, you didn't notice the conditional modifier "Chances are." It doesn't take a crystal ball to forsee that the additional heft and size of the TSX will conspire to give it abilities below those of the Prelude. Physics are physics, mo matter how much market-speak or engineers' best intentions might indicate otherwise. (That's a fact, if you must insist.)
Now, notice the word "unique" squeezed in between by someone who has had a driving experience to go with 'want-to-make-a-point' thing...
"Just what class, exactly, the TSX will compete in is hard to figure. Acura thinks it's a legitimate competitor to the Mercedes C-Class, BMW 3 Series or Audi A4, and it certainly matches them for performance and easily beats them for value.
But because of its front-wheel drivetrain (A4s are available this way too, though the vast majority are quattros) and Honda provenance, it may be tough for buyers to accept the TSX in the same league.
Open-minded buyers will, however, find that the Acura has a definite Germanic feel to its build, a sense of mechanical and material density that makes it feel heavier than it is, which is the hallmark of any high-quality product.
An easier and more easily beatable set of adversaries might be the sportiest versions of Mazda's 6, Nissan's Altima, Volkswagen's Passat and even Honda's own 240-horse Accord V6.
Against this group of quick, entertaining family cars, the TSX feels decidedly unique: more compact, yes, but also far more exciting to drive and with a feel of solidity that shames all of them; sort of a hit of double espresso to their large Tim Hortons, if you will."- Toronto Star
Aside from Audi, can you name a company other than Honda that has effectively conquered torque-steer?
Unquestionably, Honda builds incredible motors, and has been doing so for more than sixty years. Another reasonable expectation, perhaps?
Yes, Hondas reflect precise engineering and construction, but today it's no longer the case that you can't get something comparable on a different maker's sales lot.
I love Hondas, but I no longer lust for them. People buy based on wants, not needs. While Hondas have everything I might need, they lack what I want - period.
Comparing the TSX to the Altima is easy pickins, wouldn't you say?
The TL is more inline with those cars.
Even the TL averages less than the BMW and C Class.
Sorry, but you haven't heard any whining from me. I'm fully aware that there are a number of RWD cars that the TSX intends to be competitive with, and that's been my point all along (just in case you somehow missed it).
As for the 325i not being a TSX competitor, you might want to check with Acura, because that's their marketing line, not mine. Trust me, that's not a match-up I'd make while sober.
With that out of the way, there is a positive write-up on the TSX in the April issue of Automobile mag. They gave it big points for the chassis, excellent engine response, "and shocking value equation." Minor gripes were with the clutch and shifter action -- "seemed a bit flimsy." They also considered the styling a bit too restrained (gee, in a Honda? Whodathunkit?).
"The new sedan is easily the finest in the Acura range and a credible rival to Audi's A4, Mercedes-Benz's C-class, and, yes, even BMW's 3-series."
Unless you do actual racing with your 4-door sports sedan (um, why?), you're very unlikely to experience the differences. A lot of us get a kick out of being able to identify with a RWD car and brag about how we understand weight transfers, LSD functions, and torque steer, but when it comes time to lay down the money, I value the whole package such as everyday conveniences, style, safety, and reliability over pure performance in my 4-door daily commuter.
Many people have a hard time choosing a car because they like the style of a car like the the BMW's, Audi's, etc, but are not sure if they want to make sacrafices in their budget just to own one. It may also attract those who would otherwise look to lease a BMW, but see the TSX as a car more affordable to OWN (and we all know it is usually more financially sound to own a car and keep it for a while). The TSX may also offer an alternative to those who, who like myself, have come to the conclusion that BMW's are a rip off. I'm not saying they aren't great cars, its just that in my opinion you don't get enough car for your money, but to each his own....its all based on priorities and personal preferance.
Personally, as I am soon to be finishing my M.S.E. I am looking at the TSX as a possiblity to purchase this spring. The 3 main cars I have considered are the G35, Forester Turbo to be released this summer, and now the TSX. I have to be more frugal and have ruled out the G as its maintance costs are higher and because gas prices are so high. A 325 was considered a while back but when you price that car with options it totally lost its appeal....it just didn't seem worth it to me personally.
I guess the main point is that the TSX will compete with a lot of differant cars....including the 325. There is a lot more to marketing than just trying to sell your product to performance minded drivers.
Call it ego gratification if you like, but I prefer to call it control and safety.
I'm not looking at BMW's, either, per se. I might consider a certified used, but I'd prefer not to play "touch your toes" with a dealer on a new one. I'm thinking RX-8, G35, next-gen Legacy, or even WRX wagon.
"Are you sure you want to talk about fuel efficiency when Honda's company average has been in steady decline." - Himiler
I was going to say, "I can toss that criticism with my eyes closed and hit a dozen makes that are guilty of that charge", but then I decided to see if you were right. Good thing some folks do a little fact checking around here.
You're talking about averages as compared with the oil crisis back in the 70's and early 80's. You are allowed to do that and can refer to my original statement from above. But, if you look at current times, Honda is steadily increasing fuel economy. 8 out of 12 models showed an increase over the vehicle they replaced. Those include the CR-V, Pilot, MDX, TL, RSX, Civic, and Accord I4, and Accord V6.
One model (the CL) stayed pretty much the same.
The new Ody uses 1 mpg more than the old design, but they're not really the same vehicle. (FWIW, the old Ody is still sold in the JDM market and does get better fuel economy than the model we had here before '99.) The RL is a legitimate drop of 1 mpg in both city and hwy estimates. The RSX-S loses 1 mpg to the GSR in city driving only.
Overall, that's an improvement.
The HydroGen3 was the 1st fuel cell vehicle in the world equipped with a 10,000 psi storage system, which has the potential for 60-70% more range than conventional 5000 psi systems, like the one used in the FCX.
The HydroGen3 is also larger (it's a minivan, not a "Mini"), more powerful, and faster...
But let the price get N of $28K and they're in big trouble. You can easily get both an A4 and 325i for this price (granted with somewhat lower equipment levels), but they're big problem is that they will not be able to justify $5K price premiums over the Mazda 6 and the Accord V6, which I view as their "real" competition.
Price is just critical on this car. It is mainstream car that is coming into a ruthless market. Buyers will be extremely value conscious as there is nothing on the car that will convince people that they just got to have it over the competition. The car has no special qualities that make it different, either from a technical or styling standpoint. Its mantra is competence and value. So to be successfuly the value has to be there and it will be at $25K, but not at $28K.
On the RWD vs. FWD debate, you can make a very, very good handling FWD car. The last generation Prelude was testiment to how good a FWD car can handle.
I think the issue is more that the 325/330 are just so sublime in their balance and suspension compliance, that the bar is way, way up there to match them. Lexus built a new RWD platform to knock them off - it was a valiant try but it still falls a little short. I doubt that Honda will be able to do any better, especially handicapped with the FWD.
I think the argument you have to be racing to notice handling differences is flawed. You can notice that a BMW is a better handling car than a Accord at any speed. It has better balance, more nicely weighted and accurate steering, better suspension compliance, and reduced understeer when exiting corners under even moderate throttle. Put fifty drivers in the two cars, all the way from non-aggressive to aggressive, and 40 would say that BMW handles better. I'm sure the TSX will handle better than the Accord, but I just don't see it in the same league, especially lacking the LSD. But we need some in-depth comparisons to know.
Final thought: A lot of drivers could tell that the BMW handles better, but place things like trouble-free operation a lot higher on their priorities. The latest Consumer Reports reads like a infomercial for Honda reliability.
It's all what your priorities are: a somewhat fussy German car with that last bit of handling precision, or a ruthlessly competent Honda that you'd never, ever fault unless you had the other car there to compare it to.
Mark
The TSX will compete most closely with the upcoming 4 cylinder BMW 1 series when the 3 series moves even more upmarket in a couple years.
That will be end of the sub $30K 3 series.
BMW already has as well with the new MINI Cooper.
steer.
markjenn -- great post! Thanks for putting eveything back into context.
It can get really nasty out here - what area will you be commuting from as that will make a big difference.
Later...AH
Before the flames or performance comparisons begin, what I mean is... Is this car a gap-filler until Acura gets a new product on the design table? Are they just testing the market to see if there are enough buyers? Is the TSX going to lead to something that is a direct competitor for the BMW an IS300?
I ask because the TSX is probably the most simple way to test those waters. I can't think of a better way to do that. They have almost nothing to lose.
Have you ever driven one?
Just asking.
And...I also used to be a rabid Honda fan, but not even the TSX will be enough to get me back into the fold. Honda, once upon a time, used to be the benchmark for which every other car was measured against. Since the mid-1990's Honda/Acura has become the marker of ho-hum cars per excellence.
Honda has ZERO excuses at this stage of the game for their refusal to bring to market a 50/50 RWD sedan. Since Mr. Honda's death in the mid 1990's, Honda has become the "Play Safe" company and has developed as of late a very questionnable obsession with "Cute Utes"....ugh that Element thing is so aweful.
They lost me long ago.... BMW rules!
Of course the "good strategy" is on the assumption that the products available when the "youths" age, will meet/exceed their expectations. If it does not meet their expectations, they will jump ship, albeit with a lot of regret, as in my case. In my situation, after the Integra and the TL, there is nothing in the Acura lineup, that I passionately look forward to owning. I am in my early 30s and I am no longer interested in any new Acura product and this kind of desertion, would be bad for Acura in the long term.
None of Acura's FWD offerings are something that people would desire to own...it might "serve their purpose with competence"...but the "passion" is missing.
"Competence" should be a term associated with the "Honda" end of the business but "Passion" should be the buzzword for the "Acura" end, due to the supposed premium connotations associated with it.
Later...AH
It's America's obsession, not Honda's.
I think Acura is trying to get back to it's roots as a value alternative to what's out there. Wasn't the Legend a success when first introduced? And it did it by offering a value proposition when compared against the German offerings at the time. It also kept Honda owners loyal.
I think that Acura may try to refocus itself on that philosophy. Be 9/10's of the competition at an 8/10's price. Keep Honda owners in the fold rather then defecting when they want something more than the Accord. I read somewhere that Saab's biggest conquest sale was from Honda (the saabinistas hate the idea that supposed sheep won't appreciate the nuances). Hence the need/success for the CRV, Odyssey, Pilot, and rumored Pilovalanche. With the TL moving upmarket (5/E/GS alternative?), they need something in the mid to high 20's.
I wouldn't be suprised to see the TSX surpass the 15,000 goal. I don't think it will be done by converting BMW owners. I think it will be by keeping Honda owners and converting potential Passat, 9-3, A4, M6, and yes even 3 series potentials. Again offer 9/10's - those that want the 10/10's are going to find a reason to dismiss Acura anyway.
Now that doesn't mean that Honda couldn't develop something on the S2000 chasis that may evolve into a TSX in 4-5 years once the costs of certification are recouped. And none of us will know unless the big H appears on our paychecks any time soon.
& maybe Acura wants to get rid of the fwd feeling by offering weak low-end torque on purpose to cut down torque-steer as much as possible.
(E46 3-series)BMW rules? Compare to Japanese, maybe. Compare to the whole world, not necessarily, even if $ is no object. Despite that no one, not even Merc, can match the handling AND ride comfort, the steering "feel" is beaten by a fwd Alfa Romeo 4-dr and the old E36 3-series (& possibly other non-VW-group Europeans such as Focus SVT?).
Even Consumer Report can see the clear difference-- Focus SVT beats Mini Cooper in BOTH ride & handling. No wonder, years ago, BMW admitted that they wanted to consider using the Focus platform as their entry-level vehicle.
Back in '94, I remember test driving 525i & 530i against E320. Beemers's slow-ratio steering was a handful to do abrupt lane change, & worse, to counter steer 'cause the car oversteers during cornering. While the E320 had none of the above cons & provided better ride comfort & quietness. No wonder Ssanyang of Korea used up all the $ to buy this old E-class blue print & built an old-S-class look-alike sedan of their own.
Why can't some reliable-car companies like Japanese buy this old E36 (or even E46) BMW platform (just the suspension & steering, 'cause they don't really break) copyright & build an inexpensive/reliable "perfect car"? Well, that's just a thought. I guess these Germans can't afford to let them (reliable-car companies) have it.
The closest "perfect car" so far is the upcoming Focus II-based (steering/suspension only! For God's sake) made-in-Japan Mazda3 w/ not-so-torquy 2.3 4-cyl. However, I'm not optimistic about its quietness.
Please post a link to the article that you are referring to.
Too true. And if a good reason doesn't exist, they'll make one up. (Though I don't believe that to be true with the TSX.)
If you've got to drive a manual in traffic, I'd go with the Honda. That's not a recommendation, though. It's more like the lesser of two evils if you're the type who gets tired of shifting.
Drivinisfun - CR has their site locked up tight. You need to be a registered member to read their stuff.
'87 Prelude Si
'89 Prelude S 2.0
'91 Civic DX hatch
'96 Integra LS
'98 Integra GS-R
'98 Civic DX hatch
I currently drive a '01 Prelude, and was instrumental in my parents' decision to purchase a 2001 Odyssey.
My reviews (I prefer the word "impressions") of Hondas and other makes all come from first-hand experience, or at the very minimum a thorough study of a given model. Your declaration indicating otherwise is based on a level of ignorance not attributable to me.