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Acura TSX
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At least the car had some character, something the RSX is rather lacking.
What intrigues me about the TSX (and others of the ilk) is the fact that I can romp around the back roads on the weekends, and not be punished for it Monday through Friday. I'm a great fan of the Integra for what it was, but it made a lousy commuter car. The TSX is far more flexible.
(BTW, why do you keep mentioning the RSX?)
I guess the operative word in the phrase "Ultimate Driving Machine" should be changed to "parked"--- as it is hard to enjoy your machine of choice when it spends excessive time at the shop for repairs or maintainence.
The guy next to me in the office has a 98 323Ci, and the car is cursed with many electronic problems. Another coworker had similar problems with her 99 328i until she got sick of it and traded it in on an Accord V6.
I can't wait to see how the TSX measures up... in performance... reliability... durability.... I am looking forward to a C&D comparison test soon...
Yes, I enjoy peaky engines for this reason. Cars nowadays are too refined to have much charactor, regardless of brand or class.
"Character", to me, is a vehicle-specific attribute that requires a little personal, intimate knowledge of the vehicle to exploit or finesse.
It wasn't even trying to be a luxury car, so I found the FWD layout and peaky VTEC to be lots of fun.
How do you identify between "trying to be a luxury car" versus "being a luxury car"? Or is it that any entry-level/near luxury car is a wannabe luxury car IYO?
If there is something consistent about your statements, it is inconsistency.
At least the car had some character, something the RSX is rather lacking.
Refinement = lack of character. Interesting.
jjwood23
Based on published specs, TSX is identical to Passat in terms of interior dimensions (so a little larger than A4). Trunk is slightly smaller, and the car itself is shorter than Passat (mid-way between A4 and Passat in terms of exterior dimensions). If space is your concern, RX-8 would be the worst in your list. It is basically a "2+2 door sedan".
After doing a quick search, you are correct: the Civic Hybrid's batteries are warrantied for 8yrs/80k but Honda expects them last 10 years so that's good.
http://www.hondacars.com/models/faqs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid
Also, the site below estimates the cost to be around $2k for the batteries but notes the cost may be lower with increased volume. Kinda steep at $2k but considering the fuel savings over 10 years, may be worthwhile...
http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/Stories/0%2C1413%2C106%257E4- 979%257E%2C00.html?url=2003hondahybrid.asp
"That said, there may not be batteries in future hybrids either! Honda FCX and Dual Note apparently use Ultra-Capacitor to store charge, not batteries."
Very interesting!!! Thanks for the info BTW.
Steve
The TSX back seat has able room for two adults in the back seat, but very little leg room. Since are about to start a family, that pretty much killed it for us... darn that wife
Does anyone know if there are going to be exterior accessories for the TSX, or are they saving them for a TSX Type-S? Just curious.
Lexus cars do have character, albeit not in the sense that you or I can appreciate or get excited about. For others, who care about cushy and isolated ride, Lexus cars offer plenty of character to them.
Except the Honda and Acura still manage to both be desirable.
Only thing about the TSX I didn't care for, the perforated leather (I just like the looks of ono-perf better) and I thought the dashboard could have been a more stylish design.
So overall nice, but its not gonna trump an Audi in style but still will be very high on many buyer's lists.
TSX looks pretty spacious in front.
Current A4 is a lot more commdoious than previous versions. 3 series is and will always be, tight.
BMW 3-series' door arm rest is too low, so I, being 5'11" slender built, can rest my triceps on the sport seat's side bolsters like "arm rests" to barely hang on the 8 & 4 o'clock position on the steering wheel when not wearing a thick jacket. But the turn signal stalk is at 9 (or even 10 in some cars) o'clock position, so this is not good enough. I also find the "lateral support" from the transmission tunnel a little too much of a squeeze for my right calve. These "lateral support" side panels, once properly calibrated like in the Protege, are very desirable for the driver to brace on during hard cornering. An example of annoying panel would be the previous E-class's knee pad from the dashboard.
The new Mercedes C-class fits me perfectly! & doesn't got 3-series' narrow rear window visibility.
I never sat in a TSX. I do find Mazda6's driving position quite a perfect snug fit, like a well designed/calibrated cockpit. It actually feels kind of neat! So I'm not sure if those super-roomy Camry's & Accord's driving positions are as desirable, maybe they're for the heavy builts.
It wasn't roped off like in Detroit... but it was NOT open
regfootball - have you been to Morries lately? They have about 100 6's! Have you driven?
kyfdx
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Morries had better start discounting! TSX is on the way! I sat in a car with a 22 or so year old rather attractive gal.....sat in the 6. Asked her if she liked it, she said, "not enough horsepower".....my kinda gal. But then she torqued me off saying she was gonna buy the Honda (I assume she meant either TSX or TL) over the 6 because now that Mazda was owned by Ford management they are down the tubes. I wonder if that's her own ideas or some boyfriend filling her ear. She was quite a fireball. Anyways, who was I to disagree...she was way hot and wasn't wearing much. It was fun just checking her out even if I disagreed with her car logic.
Maybe the TSX will be open during the week.
Altima: 43.9+36.4=80.3
Accord: 42.6+36.8=79.4
Camry : 41.6+37.8=79.4
Passat: 41.5+35.3=76.8
TSX : 42.4+34.2=76.6
(TSX is nearly identical to Passat)
As far as rear seat room is concerned, these numbers provide a good idea of how TSX stacks up against some midsize cars,
Rear Seat Head room (best to worst, note: TSX numbers are with moonroof, not true for other cars) -
Accord: 38.5
Camry : 38.3
Passat: 37.8
Altima: 37.6
TSX : 37.3
Rear Seat Shoulder room (best to worst) -
Camry : 56.7
Accord: 56.1
Altima: 56.1
Passat: 54.6
TSX : 54.4
Rear Seat Hip room (best to worst) -
TSX : 54.4
Camry : 54.1
Accord: 53.5
Altima: 52.7
Passat: Not Available
Interestingly, TSX has the best hip room of the bunch. Shoulder room, OTOH is as tight as that in Passat, headroom is comparable to Passat and Altima.
Do they mean that all Acuras up to this point was just "for practice" and the TSX is the "real thing"? Or do they mean cars from all other manufacturers too? Either way, it's a bold statement.
If only they spent all that time and energy towards optimizing a good RWD platform.....they would have had a "legitimate" world beater on their hands.
Later...AH
But the interesting thing is that '00 Civic is the next most stolen car! I believe it's because this country ran out of brand-new full-double-wishbone compacts, & the '00 Civic is the newest you can find. This country also gave Hondas ridiculously high resale value, so people rather steal than buy it. Since '92, I've been wondering about the excellent value of the Civic due to the double-wishbones all around, torque-sensing pwr steering, and a 103in wheel base w/ small 32.8ft turning circle. But good things don't last forever. Honda eventually didn't think inexpensive-car buyers deserve full double wishbones. So what are we gonna do w/o a full-double-wishbone compact? Here's TSX to the rescue, but at a "black mailing" price. Gees, it doesn't even come w/ a convenient small turning circle.
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Honda eventually didn't think inexpensive-car buyers deserve full double wishbones. So what are we gonna do w/o a full-double-wishbone compact?
Yeah. When Nissan/VW can make do with semi-independent rear suspension in their midsize cars, BMW can continue to "impress" people with their fantastic "MacPherson struts" and Toyota continues to take the advantage of "MacPherson struts" in all but RWD lineup, it was probably the time for Honda to match them by going "inexpensive".
Here's TSX to the rescue, but at a "black mailing" price.
Can't afford it? Look at Bimmers.
It's laughable that some folks fail to see a distinction between the application of front struts in a RWD vehicle and one that's FWD.
Or maybe would you prefer your TSX with McStruts? Boy, that sure sounds like fun!
BTW, I never said FWD cars cannot be "sporty." You are in error.
Your apparent lack of concern for sophisticated engineering does not surprise me.
And some folks seek any excuse they can get. Toyota uses double wishbones on its RWD vehicles (Lexus IS300, GS300/430, SC430, LS430). Nissan uses double wishbones in its RWD vehicles (Nissan 350Z, Infiniti G35, M45, Q45). Mercedes doesn't look for an excuse with its RWD vehicles to use MacPherson Struts, does it? Now, it would be real interesting to find out if Williams-BMW also uses MacPherson Struts since it is RWD! Now, that would be, fun!
I assume one would have to compare vehicles that are similarly tuned for handling performance, not compare say a 2002 Civic to a Prelude.
I have owned both Honda setups. I had a '95 Integra, and I now have a '00 Accord and a '02 CR-V. Obviously the Integra (wishbones) handled the best, but the differences between the Accord (wishbones) and V (struts) are less obvious, because neither is tuned for handling performance. In some ways the V is more fun around town because it feels more lively, where the Accord is a bit dull.
The reason I ask this question is it seems relevant to the discussion of the ability of the TSX to its competitors. Does the TSX's wishbones give it an advantage over its FWD competitors (like the A4 or Saab 9-3)?
And the point was?
Name one.
Your apparent lack of concern for sophisticated engineering does not surprise me.
This was pointed at varmint, but I will respond.
Do you think Accord (double wishbones/5-link Watt Link double wishbone rear) outhandles Altima 3.5SE (MacPherson Struts front/ 4-link independent rear) or Maxima SE (MacPherson Struts front/ semi-independent rear)? If not, you've got not one, but two examples.
That said, which car do you think outhandles the other?
RSX Type-S
Accord
Weren't we talking about sedans?
"And the point was?" *sigh* A RWD car with front struts will not have the same handling characteristics as a car that is a FWD with front struts. In turn, a FWD car with a multi-link or wishbone front suspension will not suffer the same degree of bump-steer as a FWD with front struts.
As far as the Accord/Altima/Maxima comparison goes, the Accord is under-tired compared to the other two, and doesn't suffer the flinty ride (or torque-steer) of the Altima, or the Maxima's tendency to quickly bottom-out on the rear bumpstops. So sorry, I don't agree that either of those cars offers a significantly higher level of handling than the Accord, if at all.
The biggest disadvantage of a wishbone suspension is the expense associated with it. It also requires more room than a strut setup, which is a consideration in a smaller, passenger-oriented vehicle.
In comparison, a FWD with struts does not offer as broad a range of adjustment because the front wheels are resposible for both steering and driving the car, and these two functions are sometimes difficult to balance. Honda has done a very good job of finding an optimal balance with the new Civic platform, but had they continued the use of wishbones with the new, more-rigid body shells, the likely results would have been phenomenal.
The best example would be comparing the RSX-S's handling to an Integra's, or different generations of Civics. I can't speak for myself, but tuners definately seem to like the older Hondas better in this respect. Be it strut or not, all that matters is that the geometry is done correctly. In a traditional strut setup, this is impossible, but my understanding is that the current Civic/RSX does not use a traditional strut setup- theirs extra linkage in there. Perhaps someone has a picture or diagram?
The Mazdaspeed Protege still uses struts up front, and it could be argued to be the best handling front-driver around.
That said, I can't think of a single performance car with struts. Wishbones are the best- race cars use these, and they are able to keep the tire in optimal contact with the road at all times. Struts don't offer the same strength nor adjustment that bones offer, and they cost more to replace.
From what I understand about the geometry, FWD and simple strut setups are somewhat analagous- they can both be adequate, and good enough for the average person, but can never perform as well as wishbones (or RWD), despite good examples of great-handling FWD vehicles or strut suspension vehicles.
I would have used the Maxima. Even the last generation, if you prefer.
"In comparison, a FWD with struts does not offer as broad a range of adjustment because the front wheels are resposible for both steering and driving the car, and these two functions are sometimes difficult to balance."
But a FWD car with bones is not responsible for both steering and driving the car? Tell me how that works? Also, torque steer is a drivetrain characteristic, not a suspension issue.
Yes, it is true that wishbones have greater potential than struts, but the Accord does not take advantage of it. Nor does it need to. It's a family sedan fer crying out loud. So, other than bragging rights in a paper comparison, why use bones?
I'll take the car that works. I don't care how it gets the job done. If it does everything that 3 Series does and rides on skateboard trucks, I'll take it. Use the tool or design that gets the job done.
Lowering the car will help some, because the stock geometry is changed, and the steering link becomes less critical to the suspension.
Pity poor Mazda and their hot-selling 6. It's getting great reviews for its handling (better than Accord, even), and it has nothing to do with the wishbones, right? Think of the money they could've saved by using struts instead. I'm sure no one would've noticed any difference...
If you think that a suspension setup has nothing to do with reducing torque-steer, there are a bunch of german engineers over at Audi who would like to explain how the four-link, "virtual steering axis" front suspenstion in the A4 operates.
Ah, thanks for jogging my memory. That sounds like a terrible idea, for the reason you mentioned.
I might as well mention, then, that I test drove the RSX against the Mazda6 and thought the '6 to be the much better performer, despite the added size and weight. I attributed a lot of it to awful weight distribution, but in hindsite it could have been to improper front geometry too.
Honda used to be a huge advocate of wishbones on ALL cars.
Funny that you mentioned 'built to hustle around corners'. No, classification or number of doors should have no bearing on this discussion of MacPherson Struts versus Double Wishbones. It is all about the setup, isn't it. Now, your problem with Civic is 'hustling around corners'?
A RWD car with front struts will not have the same handling characteristics as a car that is a FWD with front struts.
And a RWD car with double wishbones would be a better choice over MacPherson Struts. Correct? Or, no?
As far as the Accord/Altima/Maxima comparison goes, the Accord is under-tired compared to the other two, and doesn't suffer the flinty ride (or torque-steer) of the Altima, or the Maxima's tendency to quickly bottom-out on the rear bumpstops. So sorry, I don't agree that either of those cars offers a significantly higher level of handling than the Accord, if at all.
Much of what you say, I agree with. However, use of simpler words could have helped the cause. The word significant is not important, then, would you say the Maxima SE outhandles the regular Accord? Answer in Yes or No.
If you think that a suspension setup has nothing to do with reducing torque-steer, there are a bunch of german engineers over at Audi who would like to explain how the four-link, "virtual steering axis" front suspenstion in the A4 operates.
I don't disagree with that. But I would love to see how the new ITR stacks up against the old on a track. The new R has more torque, more power and way shorter gearing (actually, the same 6-speed as that used in TSX).
stretchsje
How does the application of struts to a FWD vehicle differ from a RWD vehicle? They save space, which is more useful for a FWD vehicle, but I fail to see how that effects the driving experience. I guess in a RWD vehicle, front space is not a premium, so I'd expect wishbones.
So would I, especially in expensive cars, if not in a Mustang.
Be it strut or not, all that matters is that the geometry is done correctly. In a traditional strut setup, this is impossible, but my understanding is that the current Civic/RSX does not use a traditional strut setup- theirs extra linkage in there.
Very true.