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Acura TSX
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It is possible that the anticipated TSX Type-S could share engine with the next Honda S-car (note that I did not say S2000, since a rumor that there will be a bump in displacement to 2.2 liter, which would mean S2200). Sooner or later, F20C (S2000 engine) is going to be replaced by an I-VTEC variation. It could be a variation of the current K-series engine.
As already pointed out (Varmint), the sportiest version of Accord today (Accord Euro-R sold in Japan only) shares the high revving engine with the current Integra Type-R (2.0 liter, 220 HP @ 8000 rpm, 152 lb.-ft @ 6000 rpm), while the lower performance but more comfort oriented models (24T, 24S and 24TL) use the same engine as TSX.
A good comparison would be that between couple of Japanese Accord trims (a lot of people think TSX is European Accord, but in fact, there is no sport packaged Accord in Europe at this time),
24S: Sport Suspension probably similar to TSX, 2.4 liter, 200 HP/171 lb.-ft. Not offered with manual transmission though. Weighs almost as much as TSX (slightly less due to less standard features).
Euro-R: Sport Suspension, screaming engine (K20A) with 8500 rpm redline, offered with 6-speed manual transmission only (also shared with ITR, and closer in-between ratios compared to TSX). Euro-R is about 250 lb. lighter, but surprisingly, well equipped (nearly all conveniences are standard, unlike a Type-R).
I will not be surprised if K24A was de-stroked (or K20A was slightly bored and stroked) to develop a new engine (let us call it K22A) capable of revving to 8000 rpm and beyond to potentially deliver 240-260 HP.
That said, I may be one of the few who feels that it is time to make use of electric assist to get more power along with the use of either K20A or K24A in the TSX.
As far as acceleration is concerned, it will not be a break-even deal. For instance, current TSX has a (top end) weight-power ratio of 16.3:1. Even if hybrid powertrain added only 25 HP at the top end, a weight gain of over 400 lb. would be required to make it a breakeven deal. And even if it does, the output characteristics of an electric motor (strongest in the low-mid range) will still improve the weight to power ratio in low-mid range.
And if TSX-S could get the AWD 240 HP IMA-K24A unit (as in RDX), and Acura manages to keep the weight around 3500 lb. or less (better than Audi Quattro or BMW 325ix, with way more power and torque), things can get very interesting.
They also report that this would be second hybrid in the Acura lineup after the 2005 RL. I doubt any of this is truly accurate, but that makes it sound like a hybrid TSX is not in the works. Makes sense, given the (relatively) low production numbers.
varmint,
I feel positioning of next TL will probably give us a better idea of any additional possibilities with the TSX. If TL Type-S goes into mid-30s, there will be enough room for TSX Type-S. Now, whether it will be using IMA or a high revving K-series (like) engine remains to be seen.
It is possible, however, that all future Acura Type-S model could have IMA, and RL w/IMA could be a Type-S as well. I doubt base RL will make use of IMA.
This assumption is based on the premise that I read somewhere a while ago, Acura supposedly getting a hybrid performance sedan, and a hybrid light truck (CRV? Odyssey? Pilot?) for Honda. I believe this was from an article in TOV several months ago.
That is quite good for an engine rated at only 200 HP/166 lb.-ft, unless the drivetrain losses are that low (only 6% loss for max torque).
Meanwhile, another dealership has the same car in and will knock off $200.
Would you back out of the other deal? Would I still be able to get my deposit back?
Thank you.
Simple...
At our Acura the sales people will wash your car whenever you want if you bought from them. Just a nice little bonus.
As for the TSX-S, expect a super charger
LOL. As if you ever see the GM or salesperson when you take a car in for servicing. Drop the car off, hop into a shuttle/courtesy car/friend's car and then return later that day or the next day to get your car.
At our Acura the sales people will wash your car whenever you want if you bought from them. Just a nice little bonus.
Most car nuts would vehemently disagree with a dealership carwash as a perk. In fact everyone I know who truly cares for his/her car will not allow a dealership to wash the vehicle. Check out Freshalloy or Bimmerfest and see how many carlovers allow the dealership lot guy to make swirl marks in the paint of a luxury car.
YTD car wash bill if I brought it to my dealer to have it washed. $0 + inconvenience.
As for the car wash, its automated, obviously it will never be as good as a personal handwash but its better then nothing.
I guess I'm just lucky to live near a decent Acura dealership, but I get the same great service with my BMW too.
Life is too short to worry about a couple of swirl marks on my car.
I've had my Acura dealer wash my TSX three times already this summer, and it looks just fine.
In a couple more weeks, I'll put a coat of "Klasse All-In-One" on it. That'll remove the swirls and give it a high gloss finish.
I used "Klasse" on my Buick almost two years ago and the finish is still slick and glossy. I guess if I was really picky, I could wax more often, but I just don't see the need.
IF there is a Type-S, the changes probably won't amount to much more than a 20-30hp bump (from a higher compression ratio, forged internals, and a higher redline), sticky tires and bigger brakes.
A V6 won't fit.
So, they can either bore out the current design and try to make it larger displacement (costly), or they can supercharge it.
Or, my going theory is that Acura has no interest in a Type-S for the US.
That would absolutely be a killer engine in a TSX-S.
OTOH, I would never bet against Honda being able to make an engine rev faster. The piston speeds are an issue, but it's also something Honda is very familiar with. I don't expect they would go that route, but I wouldn't take it off the table, either.
Regarding a higher performance TSX, the folks at Honda are slowly dropping the Type S designation. The 2004 TL will have a 6sp "HPT" variant with some extra bang for the buck. It's unclear to me right now what that will be... I think IMA is unlikely.
The thing that gets me is that the new TL will be released in a few short months, right? Well, very little data is available about this machine on the net. However, I did hear about dropping the Type S line while I was looking for TL info, though. It's unclear to me whether changing the name from Type S to HPT is going to have the impact that Acura may be looking for. I would just stick with a brand some people know (Type S), and run with it.
Hadn't head of the "HPT" designation until now.
I also wish for a Type S or Type R TSX but haven't heard any rumors yet. However, the european version of the Accord is still stouter than the USA version "tart" Accord.
When I hear "Type R", the first thing that comes to mind is "coffee-can" muffler.
Type-S: Sport tuned chassis (usually) with additional power over regular (usually 'touring' trim), but ride and comfort is still a priority.
Type S - Take a nice with all trimmings and add some sporty flavor to it.
Type R - Take a nice car, toss out everything but the seats and make it a purpose-built racing machine.
If only it really worked out as well as it sounds...
The type R assessment is right on (which is why I would never consider one in the RSX or TSX, both of which I am considering).
However, the "more sporty flavor", I think, understates type S a bit. A more powerful engine is the primary meaning to me...the RSX-S has 25% more HP (200 v 160) then the RSX.
Now...if only the TSX was a hatchback, I'd long since be driving one. Oh, and a bit off the price, too ;-)
It kills me that I'd have to pay $5k more to get all the "nice stuff" that the TSX has and the RSX doesn't...and I'd have to give up the hatchback, too. And get 2 doors I don't need.
BTW...I notice that sales for the TSX are 2,275 so far this year (through May). I had heard that they planned on 15,000 for 2003. Seems like they are well under target...what month did it hit the market?
So, the first 3 months are:
2,275
1,836
1,921
=====
6,032
That projects out to just over 18,000 for the year, so it looks like they'll be close to their estimate.
They're still over, but by 21%, not 60%.
Of course, if the TL steals sales, that could change come September.
Launch of TL may affect some sales of TSX, and at that point it may actually even out to estimated pace. However, TL will also be, atleast 3K more expensive (for the base, model), while not being a touring sedan (unlike TSX which is a sport sedan). When (and if) the 'sport' version of TL arrives (TL Type-S) a few months down the road, it would be even more expensive to start with, putting it in a completely different marketing class.
regards,
kyfdx
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What I'm really thinking about is whether there's any reason to think that they might start selling the TSX below sticker anytime soon...if they were to raise production or for any other reason.
At this point, it doesn't seem likely. Any thoughts?
Good grief, it IS selling below sticker in southern california. if you want a tsx below msrp just call a socal dealer.
How much below sticker? Is this a recent change?
To my knowledge (not vast on this subject, I asked one dealer and I've read several ref's here and TMV), it's pretty much going for sticker around here.