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Acura TSX
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That said, the brakes on the TSX are average at best. Braking is the weakest feature of that vehicle, and the one place where it is really outclassed by the competition (IMO).
Speaking of heated mirrors, if it cost pennies, everybody that does offer them (as option) ofcourse, must offer for pennies, correct? How much does a cold weather package cost on a BMW 3-series, Audi A4, or even Passat?
A car is priced as a package. Non-standard heated mirrors in US bound TSX may have more to do with "feature list" for the car itself than saving a few pennies, otherwise the car won't have a lot of other stuff standard. There are more ways to save pennies.
And some of us go on to state that heated seats are useless but heated mirrors are not! WEll, based on my experience, I don't need either! I can see that heated seats can be sometimes useful, but have never felt the need of heated mirrors. Some feel the other way, which makes it amusing.
I'm a bit puzzled as to your amazement about my opinion that the heated seats are useless (btw, I never said useless) but the heated mirrors are not. How is it that these two items should be so closely coupled that they either have to both be useful or both be useless?
Yes, they have one thing in common... that they'd cater to colder climates. But the heated seats target comfort while the heated mirrors target visibility and safety. If you dress appropriately for colder climates, I personally don't find the heated seats to provide much benefit. My clothing usually prevents the parts of my body that touch the seats from becoming cold. This is my personal take on heated seats for my own use. I'm in no way implying that anyone else should feel the same way about them.
On the other hand, in a cold climate, the heated mirrors can be a useful convenience and safety feature. In snow and ice conditions, the heated mirrors can loosen or clear ice and snow while you're clearing off the rest of the car. And in conditions where dew clouds the windows and mirrors, which happens even outside the snow belt, the heated mirrors are a definite advantage.
So in my opinion, these features are apples to oranges. A marginally useful comfort and "bragging rights" feature (IMO) vs. a feature that in many situations in colder climates can promote safer driving by keeping your mirrors clear. Huge distinction in my book.
By the way, my observations weren't specifically about the TSX but about Honda/Acura in general, because they omit the same features in the Accord. And I wouldn't call it nitpicking, either. While the lack of heated mirrors and low washer fluid warning lights isn't a show stopper for me, they're still features that I'd like to see, and more important to me than some other added features on the 2003 Accord (second power outlet and dual climate control, for example).
Here's a thought. Manufacturers should offer a seat heater button on the remote so you can get them going BEFORE you sit your backside down.
Anyway, to the actual point of this post. Talon95 - how useful is a heated leather steering wheel to y'all? Should the TSX have one? (Just so I can say this post is on topic, a little)
I might find a heated steering wheel even more useful than heated seats, since I don't like to wear gloves while driving.
But, if I still lived in a cold climate, I'd be very annoyed about paying close to $30,000 (with Nav et al) for a car without heated mirrors. That is actually a very useful feature.
I agree completely with Talon95 about this issue.
Also, I can't imagine why any new car at the "Near Luxo" level and above would be introduced without Brake Assist. Having BA might mean you don't have to "use" your airbags.
I think Honda was in a rough spot with the TSX. If it cost a whole lot more than the Accord, they would not have been able to sell it. So, they cheaped out on some features. the three features you list (EBD, BrakeAssist, and heated mirrors) are of biggest concern to me. Some other annoying abscenences: back up assist (sideview mirror that points down when you go into reverse) memory for seats, power passenger seat.
What is the car closest in price to the TSX that has EBD, brake assist, and heated mirrors? Is there an Accord that fits this bill?
A second more theoretical question: how many people that actually drove the TSX would not buy it solely because it did not have heated mirrors?
The 2003 TL, which can be had for a less money than the TSX right now, has heated mirrors, but not EBD or BrakeAssist.
The TSX has an average time on dealer lots of less than 15 days. Dealers have been unable to get enough to meet the demand. So, in answer to your question, not many drivers are passing up the car because of heated mirrors.
If that's the case, then Honda/Acura has significantly different customers from those of their most direct competitors.
Availability of heated mirrors on Accord competitors:
Camry - std on XLE
Altima - std on SE and SL
Mazda 6 - optional on all models (package)
Galant - optional on all models except base (package)
Legacy - std on all but base
Sonata - std on GLS
Passat - std on all models
So Honda's competitors have clearly found enough demand to make heated mirrors available or standard... perhaps Honda's "research" is flawed. C'mon, guys, at least make them standard on the EX models...
TSX competitors:
The base models of the following TSX competitors (as identified in Acura's marketing releases) have heated mirrors as standard:
Audi A4, Saab 9-3 Linear, Volvo S60, Mercedes C-Class, BMW 325i, Infiniti G35, Lexus IS300
It would appear that this feature is expected in the class, so Acura clearly missed the boat here.
And there are more, but you get the idea.
So can we put the "no demand" argument to rest? Honda's and Acura's competitors have found enough demand to make this feature available or standard on many models. I find it virtually impossible to believe that Honda's research would differ greatly here.
Hey, don't get me wrong... I think the Accord and the TSX are great cars, and they've done most things right with them. But they're not perfect, and this is one area in which they could be improved, IMO. And if you still think they feel there's no demand, well here are several people for their consideration who wish they hadn't omitted this feature. Maybe they should revisit the question of the demand for it.
I wouldn't expect them to... as much as I like this feature, there's obviously many much more important features to consider on a car. Obviously, it's not a deal breaker for me, either, since I got the Accord without it.
But that still doesn't stop me from wishing I had it.
I believe Brake Assist is much more important. It senses emergency braking and automatically applies maximum force to the brakes. In combination with ABS it gets the car stopped sooner. Maybe those couple of inches before there would otherwise have been an impact. Most drivers don't brake hard enough in an emergency.
Lack of heated mirrors would not keep me out of a TSX. It would just make me pic nits of a terrifically good car. Acura shouldn't go cheap, giving me little reasons to nit pic.
As others have said, these items do not add a great deal of cost to the car. For BA, EBD and heated mirrors I wouldn't blink if the price was $500 higher. Particularly, if it started out that way, since there would be no basis for comparison.
Those deficiencies in the TSX, combined with the extra features of the TL, might push me to a TL. Depending on the amount of money I was willing and able to spend. Maybe that's something Acura has in mind. Those deficiencies probably wouldn't keep an individual who found he couldn't afford the TL that got him in the door, from buying the TSX. Still, not having them adds to the sentiment that the TSX is just an expensive 4-cylinder Accord with a little prettier make-up.
I just added a discussion for aftermarket body side moldings for the TSX and TL in the Aftermarket area.
Were TSX's gathering dust all over the country, I'd say that the alleged sentiment, noticeably absent from every review I've read, that they are overpriced, gussied up Accords might have some weight. The average entry level luxury buyer, an incredibly competitive segment, ain't that dumb.
now i'm waiting for someone to point out that the tsx doesn't have a passenger power seat like the accord ex v6.
I don't know whether you intended to call me dumb, but that's what you did.
btw - unlike most of us on these boards, the average car buyer, even those looking to move up, doesn't know much about cars and frequently relies on what they've heard other people saying.
My point is that superficial distinctions are not going to fool the target market for this vehicle, or at least not much of that market. The fact that the TSX is selling so well given the informed nature of its buyers indicates to me that it's appeal goes beyond badging or a few bells and whistles. I think its pretty apparent that the car mags have latched on to that appeal.
For any particular individual, the Accord or the TSX may be the better choice, but it won't be because the TSX is just an "overpriced" Accord.
not be honored by Acura U.S. But if one lives near the
border, this should not be a major issue. The dealer I spoke with even offered a $C900. discount. However, there are only 5 color choices offered. So, if one can't wait till Acura USA fixes this deficiency, one could always go there and bring one in.
Of course, I could be way off on the changes involved, but if it is that important to you,something to consider.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'd have to surmise that all of the points that anyone could possibly make on this fairly simple issue have been made, so can we PLEASE move on?
Solution: A $27,000 TSX and a $15 portable hair dryer.
Alternative: $30,000+ Saab, Audi, or BMW.
Seriously. Heated mirrors are not a necessity and far from a make-it or break-it option. If heated mirrors are your only concern then buy a $17,000 Suzuki Verona ...
ike3 - hey, would you give your Canadian source a call and see what they say? That would really put this issue to rest and maybe make some of us very happy campers.
talon95 - I think we all feel your pain! We have beat this dead horse long enough. :-)
I work in software, not the automotive industry, but I figure we probably have this in common. Whenever someone at my company suggests an enhancement, they have to fill out a form. That form includes a box where we're supposed to answer, "How many customers have we lost as a result of not having this?".
I'm guessing that Acura looked at the US market and said, "Here's a way we can get the price down and no one will be the wiser."
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?source=blq/yhoo&am- p;siteid=yhoo&dist=yhoo&guid=%7B7883D518%2D8DC7%2D4519%2D- 8BA5%2DD206BAB53C5B%7D
EBD is a very nice feature to maintain consistent braking performance under varying load and road conditions. It is a relatively unobtrusive feature that doesn't change the feel or responsiveness of the brake system.
This is in contrast to BA which is yet another electronic/comnpter system between the driver and brakes that "thinks for you", by noticing how you brake, particularly how quickly you get off the throttle and apply the brakes. From this information it decides *for you* whether it should take over and apply more braking when it senses you might be making an emergency stop.
BA is a worry-wart safety system put on cars by safety engineers to cover incompetent drivers who are afraid to press the brake pedal as hard as they should in an emergency situation. For incompetent drivers, it tends to cover their mistakes (although I wonder if anyone has done any work to see how many extra rear-end collisions it causes by having cars overbrake routinely).
Mercedes has a very aggressive BA system in their new models and it is roundly despised by people who have driven these cars. Almost all the reviews come away saying that the cars are great, but you never know what's going to happen when you press on the brakes. It takes brake control away from the driver and makes braking unpredictable.
(BTW, I feel the same way about "adaptive transmissions" which use "fuzzy logic" to vary the shifting patterns to suit how the driver is driving the car.)
I don't like any of these systems. Cars should do what the driver asks and do it predictably, not attempt to take over. If a system takes over for me and makes car behaviour unpredictable, I don't want it.
The next system we're doing to get is radar on the front of the car that will automatically apply brakes when it senses that you're following too closely.
Let's concentrate on training better drivers, not producing cars with so many safety systems (both passive and active) that the machine can cover every possible driver error, no matter how gross.
Finally comment: Neither system is a deal-breaker for me on a car like the TSX. The most important "features" in any car I own are that it be fun to drive, be reliable, look good, and be a good value. The TSX does all four of these amazing well. Beyond this, I'll generally take the feature mix the beancounters put together and be happy. I don't buy cars because they have side-curtain airbags, a low washer-fluid warning light, and a trunk light. I understand some do, but I think the basic car "goodness" is the most important feature.
- Mark
I completely agree that is why I only drive manual shift cars, then the only "fuzzy Logic" problem in in my brain
I so agree with training better drivers. I'm not sure what they're getting these days. I've wanted to teach driver's ed, but the pay just stinks. Maybe that has something to do with the decline.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of drivers are on the fringes of competency and don't know how to react - imo. The most disturbing thing to me is that, generally speaking, most drivers seem to have adopted a "nobody matters except me" attitude. I've noticed it change over the last 10 or 12 years. Truck drivers used to virtually always follow the rules of the road. I am constantly amazed at how many don't seem to care anymore. It always amazes me when I see a truck driver who drives in the passing lane. You used to never see that.
btw - the Lexus LS430 has the radar controlled cruise.
Even though I've expressed the desire to have heated mirrors on my Accord, I also don't buy cars based on a particular feature. I agree that the basic car "goodness" is the most important feature and without it, every other feature in the world isn't going to get me to buy. Go beyond that, though, and there's not a thing wrong with wanting a feature that the bean counters decided to omit. And using forums like these to express those desires, with the hope that the marketing folks or designers come here occasionally and will see them, and perhaps act on them.
Many of the people expressing the desire for heated mirrors or other omitted features have purchased a TSX or an Accord because they found the basic car "goodness" to be the deciding factor. And it's not unreasonable or an obsession... it's simply a matter of wanting our favorite car to be the best it can be.
Side-bar... another missing feature is auto-dimming side mirrors. The Lexus IS300 is the only entry-luxury car with this feature. Its awesome with all these SUVs around. Why don't more cars have these? I would gladly pay an extra $200-300 for them.
Back to the discussion... my 93 Saturn does not have heated mirrors and they get icy and foggy during the winter. Heated mirrors would prevent this. And yes its possible to open the window and scrap off the ice, but why should I have to do that in a luxury car? I could also roll down the windows by hand, but who wants that? There's a reason the TSX is only $26K; its not a real luxury car.
I always liked the Infiniti G20 except for the weak engine and dated styling. The TSX seems like a greatly improved G20 to me. Its an in-between model without much direct competition.
thanks in advance!
After the dealer made their inspection I was called with the diagnosis. I needed a new rim, lower control arm, steering wheel knuckle, wheel alignment, and a couple of other parts that I cannot recall right now. I was expecting to get floored with the estimate. Here's the good news, all the parts and labour above totalled under $1100.00 Canadian ($800.00USD)and that's including 15% sales tax. I couldn't believe it! After expressing this thought to the service advisor he made a comment that made me laugh. He said "You didn't buy a German car, why do you think you'd get ripped off fixing it". I am truly happy I bought the Acura as I know how expensive it can be repairing some other brands. A relative of mine had to replace a control arm on his Passat and it cost him almost $1500.00 Canadian.
I'm currently contemplating getting a TSX up in Canada (Toronto, specifically). However, I'm wondering about insurance costs for TSX owners living in Toronto. Please let me know! Thanks!
BSzeto
bszeto - My wife went from a '97 Accord to the '04 TSX, and her insurance only went up about $200/year. While the new cars are more expensive, they are also safer, so that the BIG TICKET medical payments are reduced (see above).
The Acccord was a GREAT car. My wife still misses it. It seemed roomier, and easier for her to drive with the HUGE windows and great visibility. The A/C was barely acceptable to us. The car was dark green (hot) color, and you had to run it on noisy High a lot to keep cool.
The TSX rides firmer, holds you better in the seats, has a LOT more power. It is actually much smaller than the Accord, but doesn't seem so, as you are sitting higher. The A/C is MUCH MUCH better, keeping us comfortable even tho the car is dark gray. The cooling is instant, and the auto temp control works very well.
The TSX ride is more "sporty" - you feel the road more, but you have more control. It is not objectionable. The brakes seem to be more sensitive on the TSX. There is less road noise, but you hear the exhaust note more. She LOVES the TSX. I LOVE the TSX. What a bargain it is!
I hope that this answers your questions.
The handling on the TSX is light years beyond that Accord. The Accord handled OK, but the TSX is much more nimble. The TSX feels very agile and tossable.
The TSX is also much quicker. The Accord would struggle to get up long inclines, particularly with the A/C. WIth the TSX, I almost never feel a need for more power. I know it doesn't have a V6 but it feels really lively when you drive it.
Other upgrades in the TSX: The transmission is much, much smoother. I thought the automatic in the Accord sometimes shifted rough, and it didn't always downshift quickly enough.
The interior fit and finish (which was good in my Accord) is much classier in the TSX, with every seam fitting tightly.
I did think the Accord was roomier, with a larger trunk. Also, I don't think the TSX is any quieter than the Accord. The brakes in the TSX are no a whole lot better than the Accord.
Honda used to make very rough auto transmissions. But I think they have fixed the problem. Even my cheap 2001 Civic is shift as smooth as my wife's Lexus.
Enjoy your TSX.
thanks in advance!