You're going to find most dealers in southern California charging right at, if not more than, MSRP.
For shoppers in the LA area, I've heard that Downey Acura is willing to deal. Might also want to try Mission Viejo, if you don't mind driving to Orange County.
I covered this in the "prices paid" thread, but I'll repeat it here -- it generally would not be worth the time or trouble to buy a new car out of state, and bring it to CA. You'll have to pay the difference in sales tax between the state of origin and CA, you'd also have to pay to get it smogged, and you'd have to pay the difference in registration (until the end of the month, it'll cost about $230 to license a $27,000 TSX, after October 1, that goes up to approx. $565).
So if you're hoping to get around the fees by purchasing the car out of state, then driving it back here, it's not going to work -- at least not according to the woman at the DMV I spoke with a couple of weeks ago.
I would presume that you would be bound by whatever laws apply in your state to used cars and buying from relatives.
Here in MA, you do not have to pay sales tax if you buy a vehicle from a direct relative. You must present a bill of sale or title. Technically, I guess you could have your brother in NH (where there isn't a sales tax) buy the car and then sell it to you. Then when registering in MA, you don't have to pay the sales tax.
But it'll look a little fishy to Mass RMV when you present a certificate of origin for a brand new cat as opposed to a title. Also knowing MA, there's a catch to this rule.
gee35coupe, there's a recently active discussion about this on the Smart Shopper board. Basically, if you buy it private party, you're still going to have some sales tax assessed when you go to register the vehicle. Some states figure the tax base on book value for that vehicle, others another way, but in recent discussions, we haven't managed to find a way to avoid paying taxes
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There are ways to finagle things but they all have risks.
I think the big catch for CA is that the car has to be registered/titled out of state for some period (90 days?) to be purchased as a used car and then registered/titled in CA. And most states charge sales/use tax on used cars, so you'd probably end up paying all the taxes and fees to the foreign state, then paying them again in CA. At least if you buy out of state and then register in CA immediately, you get credit for the sales tax paid out of state.
And if you're thinking of doing some kind of $1 sale from a relative to get out of sales tax, my state (WA) no longer allows you to present a bill-of-sale and use this for sales/use tax valuation on a used vehicle. They use a "secret database" of valuations (no doubt inflated) to compute sales/use tax and you have to go through a complex appeal process if you think it doesn't fairly reflect the value of the vehicle.
There are all kinds of schemes and some might work if you want to go to enough trouble. But they are seldom worth the effort and they all have the potential to get one in trouble with the taxing agencies. Given that TSX's are selling for about MSRP everywhere, I'd just buy locally.
On used cars. So if I had a relative in a "no sales tax" state, I could buy it from them and pay no sales tax. We DO have tag tax though. But that's separate from sales tax.
I had some trouble finding pictures of this but finally succeeded. I think I understand why most of the photos are of the black/chrome dash now because (strictly IMO of course)the parchment interior is pretty odd looking for such an otherwise tasteful vehicle. It's very disappointing to me because I've gotten kind of tired of the "silver look" and was considering the red or pearl white for the TSX. However, the integration (I think that's the word) of the lighter interior, with accents from the black/chrome interior on the steering wheel and shifter and black on the top of the dash above the "wood" trim looks sorta strange to me (OK, more than sorta). Too bad, because the car's a beauty otherwise and I like that red.
I have seen plenty of photos of the parchment interior with "wood" trim. They are not trying to hide them. The first pics I ever saw were with the parchment interior from the LA auto show. I kind of like it better than the metal trim other than the fact that the wood is fake. I have not sat in the car yet to see if the wood looks better or worse in real life than in photos.
I like the black and silver interior treatment. But then again, I won't ever own a car with a beige interior after my last one. too much of a dirt magnet.
I thought the parchment interior with black dash looked weird too, until someone pointed out that a lot of BMWs have the same look (tan leather with trim separating a dark dashboard). Apparenly, BMW has been doing this for some time.
there are some very nice looking wood trim kits on the market for the TSX. they even look good as a compliment to the aluminum-tone trim. actually, they look very good, imo. i've seen prices between $165 and $200.
Maybe just replacing the fake factory plood on the parchment interiored TSXs with genuine wood pieces would look good, but the aftermarket wood kits are overdone. You don't need wood around the vents, glove box and door handles etc..
I agree. As I said, you don't have to use all the pieces. You can pick and choose what suits your taste.
I think these kits look best as a compliment to the aluminum-tone trim. The cars with Parchment leather and factory wood-tone trim don't really need them.
I like the Quartz interior, but I'm not so big on the aluminum-tone trim.
Interesting to note that the US version of TSX does not make them avbl. But in Canada, it is standard... "body coloured heated power mirrors," it says on their website. Yet, the RSX does offer it in the U.S.! What's with that?! Cost cutting or some arbitrary decision by Honda U.S.? It is a nice feature to have, even in warm climates. Let alone colder climes, like here in western NY state. Honda U.S....get with the program! I can't buy this car in Canada new...your franchise agreements and gov't regs prevent that!
that is annoying. it isn't a big issue for me, because I live in LA and it doesn't go below 50 F here. But, that is a pretty chessy example of low budget cost cutting. Yuch.
We got great service, the straight truth and $500 below MSRP from Sierra Acura of Altadena. This was the best of anyone, and they added some options at no cost. Email me and I'll give you the salesman's name. It is ONE FABULOUS CAR!
That's been an ongoing gripe that I've had with Honda as well, since they've made similar equipment decisions with the Accord.
Another "standard in Canada, not offered in the US" feature is a low washer fluid warning light. When roads are sloppy in the snow belt, you can use a lot of washer fluid, and it can be a real issue if you run out. I don't understand the rationale behind the exclusion of this feature or the heated mirrors in US models.
I may not agree with Honda's decision not to include heated mirrors and a low-level washer fluid warning light, but I can certainly see the rationale for not including these options in US cars from Honda's POV.
Honda doesn't typically allow individual options, so they are committed to either making features like this standard or part of a trim package. They looked at who is buying their cars and noticed that 75% of their market is in Calif, Arizona, Texas, and the SE US where there is little need for these features. They looked at their Canadian customers and say that 75% of this market needs these features. So they made it std in Canada and not available in the US.
It's easy to pick out your pet option and wonder whey they didn't "throw it in" - after all, it only costs a few bucks. The problem is that there are tens of such pet options that different people want. One guy wants heated mirrors, another wants a hood without a prop rod, another wants a LSD, and another wants an automatic dimming mirror. And the folks who want their pet option included are often the same ones who complain most bitterly when the price comes out $500 over what we expected, as was the case with the TSX.
The car business these days is brutally competitive and Honda thought long/hard about these tradeoffs. Again, you may not agree with the choices, but I guarantee you, they were not made casually. There are lots of cars out there with such features standard - the problem is that they cost a lot more than a Honda.
"They looked at who is buying their cars and noticed that 75% of their market is in Calif, Arizona, Texas, and the SE US where there is little need for these features."
"There are lots of cars out there with such features standard - the problem is that they cost a lot more than a Honda."
If these features were too "upscale" and expensive to provide on an Accord, they wouldn't be offered on the Accord in ANY market. So they aren't limited to much more expensive cars.
And it's not a matter of picking "pet features", since we're only basing this wish after looking at what's provided as standard on the nearly identical Canadian Accord. It's not like we're asking for adaptive cruise control or power rear seats.
If they'd have put all that stuff in (washer fluid light, heated mirrors, memory seats, etc.) for MY2004, there'd be nothing left to add for MY2005-2006!
If I lived in a cold climate (as I did for most of my life) I would not be willing to buy a TSX. I got sick and tired of not being able to see my sideview mirrors everytime it got icey or cold out. I think it is really short sighted to delete that feature, which many drivers want.
Honda knows that they'll lose a few sales by not including certain features, perhaps the ones you desparately want. They also know they'll lose a few sales if the price goes up $100. I guarantee you that they have a lot more data on this that you do. A sure way to please no one is to try and please everyone.
I'll also point out that up until ten years ago, virtually no cars had heated mirrors or low-level warning lights for the washer fluid, even in the coldest climates. We somehow managed to drive our cars regardless.
Which of the TSX competitor cars (in price) have heated mirrors? I live in a northern climate and would like this, but it's probably not worth the extra bucks of the A4. Does the 2004 Accord? Passat? Saab 9-3?
Passat definitely has heated mirrors. My 01 Jetta had them, so the Passat must. I'd bet the 9-3 does too. A 325i with a cold weather package. Same goes for the G35 cold weather pack.
"I guarantee you that they have a lot more data on this that you do. A sure way to please no one is to try and please everyone."
As I said, they offer these simple and increasingly common features in nearly identical cars in other markets, so it's not likely to cause them any significant profit or sales volume distress.
You really don't have to make excuses for Honda or speculate about their marketing research. If you don't want those features, so be it. It doesn't make our desire to have them unreasonable.
"I'll also point out that up until ten years ago, virtually no cars had heated mirrors or low-level warning lights for the washer fluid, even in the coldest climates. We somehow managed to drive our cars regardless."
A specious argument. In other words, the manufacturers should stop adding features and innovating because, hey, the cars were good enough 10 years ago. Obviously this doesn't happen.
On the heated mirrors issue. I never thought I would see all the thoughtful responses that posted in the past 24 hours. Honda-Acura seems intent on a very simplified structure by limiting options. Yet, buy a Toyota or Lexus product, and you see features galore offered as "packages." Honda doesn't do that. However, having seen what some of you wrote, I don't understand the inconsistancy of why the TSX does not offer it all. Yet, the RSX, CL (03), RL, MDX, and next week, the new TL... all offer power heated mirrors. Not to repeat myself, but the Canadian model TSX has it as standard equipment. Just like Audi A-4, BMW 325i, Saab 9-3. I will accept what MarkJenn and talon95 have said, viewpoints are worth noting. Perhaps the bean counters at Acura will allow this and the low windshield washer light to be added in future production. If not by mid-year production, perhaps for '05 model year. One can only hope!
Acutally it's a resistor, addtional wiring, a switch, and 2 heating elements. I'd say it's more than $5. But for simplicity, take that $5 and multiply it by 300K annual units and all of a sudden it's a bit of coin!!
I too would like to have those features but Honda isn't going to toss them in for free.
They toss in lots of features all the time without a lot of fanfare. I figure if they can afford to put in flashy features like LCD instrumentation without complaining about the cost, these other things aren't going to break the bank by any stretch of the imagination. Again, THESE ITEMS ARE STANDARD ON CANADIAN ACCORDS, so they can't be that big of a deal for Honda. Competitors such as the Altima, the Camry and the Passat have these features as standard on some or all US models... they're hardly rare features in this market segment. And since they are on US models, if Honda is basing their decision to omit these features on a preponderence of "warm climate" sales in the US, their competition has the sense to take a broader view of their US customer base.
"THESE ITEMS ARE STANDARD ON CANADIAN ACCORDS, so they can't be that big of a deal for Honda."
Because the car wouldn't sell in Canada without them!!
I recall reading the 300M forums here for some time and there were many complaints about the standard heated seats such as "I live in San Diego, why did I have to get a useless feature?" IMHO, many people would see the heated mirrors as a useless feature. Trust me on this, Honda would add the feature if the majority of their target market demanded it.
Oh and I was wrong - you probably wouldn't need a switch. They should turn on with the rear defroster like in my 87 Daytona Shelby Z.
As for others, I was driving an Camry LE this week as a rental. This volume seller did not have heated mirrors or even visor extenders.
The point about Canada was not whether or not it made sense for Honda to offer these features in the US just because they do in Canada. Obviously cold weather features are more important in Canada than in the US. The point was that they still manage to include such features and maintain general price parity between the two markets, so adding heated mirrors and low washer lights clearly doesn't break the bank.
Anyway, heated mirrors can be used almost anywhere... they'd be useful in any climate in which a rear window defogger would be useful. Many warmer climates still exhibit weather conditions that result in foggy or dewy windows and mirrors. The same can't be said for heated seats... if the temp in your area doesn't go much below 30 degrees or so, heated seats are not likely to be used.
And when you think about it, the fact that Honda offers heated seats pretty much invalidates the whole "warm climate vs. cold climate" argument. If Honda was disinclined to include features (expensive or inexpensive) in the US that cater mostly to cold climates, we wouldn't see heated seats, either.
And as I stated before, the competition offers it, so I'm very skeptical about Honda's research on the Accord's target market being significantly different than Toyota's research on the Camry. If Toyota can include these features on Camry SE's and Camry XLE's, there's no reason whatsoever for Honda to not include them on the "loaded" EX models. Which is what I have. To include marginally useful luxury cold climate features like heated seats on their top models and then omitting useful features like the ones we're discussing makes no logical sense to me. Frankly, even in my colder climate, I think the heated seats are a waste of money.
This is clearly an issue on which we won't agree, so let's move on to something else.
I agree they would be a useful feature in many parts of the US but our arguing isn't going to make them add them. If the market doesn't demand them, they aren't going to add them.
IMHO, heated seats are more of a luxury feature - not a climate requirement as opposed to the pedestrain heated mirrors. Nobody brags about heated mirrors but they do about heated seats.
are occasionally useful as far south as North Carolina. We had a cold and wet winter by our standards last year, and the heated seats in my wife's Forester were nice indeed. My Mazda 6 also has them, although I understand the seats leave something (heat :-)) to be desired.
Never used em. They were on my 300ZX too but never thought about it. But I use the XM in our 04 Accord every time I get in the car. And I used the heated seats a lot last winter in the 03 EX-L coupe.
Wow, you guys get passionate about the lack of heated mirrors! If you're already a TSX owner, you obviously didn't consider that feature to be of tantamount importance, or you wouldn't have bought it.
When I cross-shopped other cars (such as the MZ6), I did take note that the TSX lacked heated mirrors, but I still felt the car was better in spite of that missing feature.
As I said before, perhaps those features (i.e. heated mirrors, memory seats, etc.) will be added in future model years.
Check it out. Look at the ranking table on pg 52. The TSX ranks number 1. But...I didn't know till then that it is the only one or two that doesn't have EBD! Electronic brake distribution. That may account for why braking on this car isn't as good as 325i or A-4? Again I will ask...what's with that? The lack of EBD? Why won't Honda/Acura make that standard? I know already...cost, right?
Or maybe Honda's engineers think EBD is another gizmo that can break. The 2003 Honda Accord stopping distances were reported unremarkable compared to similar family sedans in another publication, Consumer Reports. None had EBD. I'd take a guess that most of the difference is in Honda's choice of brake pad formulation.
Consumer Reports tested the Accord EX model in its I4 and V6 forms. Since the 2003 model year, Accord EX models all come with EBD, as well as the LX V6.
I've seen other reports that have attributed longer stopping distances on the Accord to the hard compound in the Michelin Energy MXV4 tires that Honda seems to prefer.
Comments
For shoppers in the LA area, I've heard that Downey Acura is willing to deal. Might also want to try Mission Viejo, if you don't mind driving to Orange County.
I covered this in the "prices paid" thread, but I'll repeat it here -- it generally would not be worth the time or trouble to buy a new car out of state, and bring it to CA. You'll have to pay the difference in sales tax between the state of origin and CA, you'd also have to pay to get it smogged, and you'd have to pay the difference in registration (until the end of the month, it'll cost about $230 to license a $27,000 TSX, after October 1, that goes up to approx. $565).
So if you're hoping to get around the fees by purchasing the car out of state, then driving it back here, it's not going to work -- at least not according to the woman at the DMV I spoke with a couple of weeks ago.
FWIW, the DMV fee is tax-deductible, if that helps.
Here in MA, you do not have to pay sales tax if you buy a vehicle from a direct relative. You must present a bill of sale or title. Technically, I guess you could have your brother in NH (where there isn't a sales tax) buy the car and then sell it to you. Then when registering in MA, you don't have to pay the sales tax.
But it'll look a little fishy to Mass RMV when you present a certificate of origin for a brand new cat as opposed to a title. Also knowing MA, there's a catch to this rule.
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I think the big catch for CA is that the car has to be registered/titled out of state for some period (90 days?) to be purchased as a used car and then registered/titled in CA. And most states charge sales/use tax on used cars, so you'd probably end up paying all the taxes and fees to the foreign state, then paying them again in CA. At least if you buy out of state and then register in CA immediately, you get credit for the sales tax paid out of state.
And if you're thinking of doing some kind of $1 sale from a relative to get out of sales tax, my state (WA) no longer allows you to present a bill-of-sale and use this for sales/use tax valuation on a used vehicle. They use a "secret database" of valuations (no doubt inflated) to compute sales/use tax and you have to go through a complex appeal process if you think it doesn't fairly reflect the value of the vehicle.
There are all kinds of schemes and some might work if you want to go to enough trouble. But they are seldom worth the effort and they all have the potential to get one in trouble with the taxing agencies. Given that TSX's are selling for about MSRP everywhere, I'd just buy locally.
- Mark
The first pics I ever saw were with the parchment interior from the LA auto show.
I kind of like it better than the metal trim other than the fact that the wood is fake.
I have not sat in the car yet to see if the wood looks better or worse in real life than in photos.
TrickyDick
here's a link to a picture -
http://www.sherwooddash.com/dashphoto/2004AcuraTSX-DV.jpg
of course, you wouldn't have to use all the pieces. to me this one's a little over the top.
You don't need wood around the vents, glove box and door handles etc..
I think these kits look best as a compliment to the aluminum-tone trim. The cars with Parchment leather and factory wood-tone trim don't really need them.
I like the Quartz interior, but I'm not so big on the aluminum-tone trim.
not make them avbl. But in Canada, it is standard...
"body coloured heated power mirrors," it says on
their website. Yet, the RSX does offer it in the U.S.!
What's with that?! Cost cutting or some arbitrary
decision by Honda U.S.? It is a nice feature to have,
even in warm climates. Let alone colder climes, like
here in western NY state. Honda U.S....get with the
program! I can't buy this car in Canada new...your
franchise agreements and gov't regs prevent that!
Another "standard in Canada, not offered in the US" feature is a low washer fluid warning light. When roads are sloppy in the snow belt, you can use a lot of washer fluid, and it can be a real issue if you run out. I don't understand the rationale behind the exclusion of this feature or the heated mirrors in US models.
Honda doesn't typically allow individual options, so they are committed to either making features like this standard or part of a trim package. They looked at who is buying their cars and noticed that 75% of their market is in Calif, Arizona, Texas, and the SE US where there is little need for these features. They looked at their Canadian customers and say that 75% of this market needs these features. So they made it std in Canada and not available in the US.
It's easy to pick out your pet option and wonder whey they didn't "throw it in" - after all, it only costs a few bucks. The problem is that there are tens of such pet options that different people want. One guy wants heated mirrors, another wants a hood without a prop rod, another wants a LSD, and another wants an automatic dimming mirror. And the folks who want their pet option included are often the same ones who complain most bitterly when the price comes out $500 over what we expected, as was the case with the TSX.
The car business these days is brutally competitive and Honda thought long/hard about these tradeoffs. Again, you may not agree with the choices, but I guarantee you, they were not made casually. There are lots of cars out there with such features standard - the problem is that they cost a lot more than a Honda.
- Mark
There are no Honda's at all in the NY metro area.
If these features were too "upscale" and expensive to provide on an Accord, they wouldn't be offered on the Accord in ANY market. So they aren't limited to much more expensive cars.
And it's not a matter of picking "pet features", since we're only basing this wish after looking at what's provided as standard on the nearly identical Canadian Accord. It's not like we're asking for adaptive cruise control or power rear seats.
I'll also point out that up until ten years ago, virtually no cars had heated mirrors or low-level warning lights for the washer fluid, even in the coldest climates. We somehow managed to drive our cars regardless.
- Mark
TrickyDick
G35 does with the cold weather package, but that winds up coming with features that you might not really want on your car.
As I said, they offer these simple and increasingly common features in nearly identical cars in other markets, so it's not likely to cause them any significant profit or sales volume distress.
You really don't have to make excuses for Honda or speculate about their marketing research. If you don't want those features, so be it. It doesn't make our desire to have them unreasonable.
"I'll also point out that up until ten years ago, virtually no cars had heated mirrors or low-level warning lights for the washer fluid, even in the coldest climates. We somehow managed to drive our cars regardless."
A specious argument. In other words, the manufacturers should stop adding features and innovating because, hey, the cars were good enough 10 years ago. Obviously this doesn't happen.
G35 does with the cold weather package, but that winds up coming with features that you might not really want on your car.
AWAY WITH THE BEANCOUNTERS!
Honda doesn't do that. However, having seen what some of you wrote,
I don't understand the inconsistancy of why the TSX does not offer it all.
Yet, the RSX, CL (03), RL, MDX, and next week, the new TL...
all offer power heated mirrors. Not to repeat myself,
but the Canadian model TSX has it
as standard equipment. Just like Audi A-4, BMW 325i,
Saab 9-3. I will accept what MarkJenn and talon95
have said, viewpoints are worth noting. Perhaps the
bean counters at Acura will allow this and the low
windshield washer light to be added in future production.
If not by mid-year production, perhaps for '05 model year.
One can only hope!
I too would like to have those features but Honda isn't going to toss them in for free.
And nobody is asking for them for free.
Because the car wouldn't sell in Canada without them!!
I recall reading the 300M forums here for some time and there were many complaints about the standard heated seats such as "I live in San Diego, why did I have to get a useless feature?" IMHO, many people would see the heated mirrors as a useless feature. Trust me on this, Honda would add the feature if the majority of their target market demanded it.
Oh and I was wrong - you probably wouldn't need a switch. They should turn on with the rear defroster like in my 87 Daytona Shelby Z.
As for others, I was driving an Camry LE this week as a rental. This volume seller did not have heated mirrors or even visor extenders.
Anyway, heated mirrors can be used almost anywhere... they'd be useful in any climate in which a rear window defogger would be useful. Many warmer climates still exhibit weather conditions that result in foggy or dewy windows and mirrors. The same can't be said for heated seats... if the temp in your area doesn't go much below 30 degrees or so, heated seats are not likely to be used.
And when you think about it, the fact that Honda offers heated seats pretty much invalidates the whole "warm climate vs. cold climate" argument. If Honda was disinclined to include features (expensive or inexpensive) in the US that cater mostly to cold climates, we wouldn't see heated seats, either.
And as I stated before, the competition offers it, so I'm very skeptical about Honda's research on the Accord's target market being significantly different than Toyota's research on the Camry. If Toyota can include these features on Camry SE's and Camry XLE's, there's no reason whatsoever for Honda to not include them on the "loaded" EX models. Which is what I have. To include marginally useful luxury cold climate features like heated seats on their top models and then omitting useful features like the ones we're discussing makes no logical sense to me. Frankly, even in my colder climate, I think the heated seats are a waste of money.
This is clearly an issue on which we won't agree, so let's move on to something else.
IMHO, heated seats are more of a luxury feature - not a climate requirement as opposed to the pedestrain heated mirrors. Nobody brags about heated mirrors but they do about heated seats.
CL
When I cross-shopped other cars (such as the MZ6), I did take note that the TSX lacked heated mirrors, but I still felt the car was better in spite of that missing feature.
As I said before, perhaps those features (i.e. heated mirrors, memory seats, etc.) will be added in future model years.
Of course, my Taurus doesn't have a trunk light. So what do I know. Or maybe I've never found the stinking bulb. But it does have heated mirrors!
TSX ranks number 1. But...I didn't know till then that it
is the only one or two that doesn't have EBD!
Electronic brake distribution. That may account for
why braking on this car isn't as good as 325i or A-4?
Again I will ask...what's with that? The lack of EBD?
Why won't Honda/Acura make that standard? I know
already...cost, right?
I've seen other reports that have attributed longer stopping distances on the Accord to the hard compound in the Michelin Energy MXV4 tires that Honda seems to prefer.