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Acura TSX
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Don't confuse vaule and desirability -- they are not interchangeable, particularly when what someone desires most is value (or values desirability, for that matter).
Again that is a value judgement/opinion. No matter how you slice it, you place a value on everything you buy. To someone who collects Bentleys, I'm would be sure a TSX or maybe 3-series and G is in the same league as a Yugo. While there might be some to get on this board and say: "I'm worth 5 billion dollars and I won't buy a car for over $35,000. (But my house is worth $50MM, I say bunk).
"Again that is a value judgement/opinion."
Ummm...okay. It's nice to know that any car with fewer standard features than the TSX is considered "sub-standard." That's bound to wrinkle the foreheads of plenty of Infiniti, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus owners.
"No matter how you slice it, you place a value on everything you buy. To someone who collects Bentleys, I'm would be sure a TSX or maybe 3-series and G is in the same league as a Yugo."
I'll agree on the first part, which is a basic concept in buying and selling (people buy things only when they perceive the value to be greater than the expense). But, since I have yet to see a collector of Bentleys post on Town Hall to verify your speculation, I fail to see the relevance.
(In case you don't realize it, you're building your argument on quicksand.)
You can get a fully loaded IS300 5-speed:
- Full leather (no escaine nonsense)
- Rear spoiler
- LSD
- Traction Control
- ZR-rated tires
- 6-disk 8 speaker stereo
- more
for $29,000.
Considering they are selling TSX close to MSRP, the gap is very narrow.
When a different point of view is taken, rather than discuss, a statement such as the above is made.
If it is your opinion as in the prior post the TSX represents a better value than car X, than so be it. But recognize it is your opinion, not fact, and we can move on.
I can tell you for a fact though, I know some people who would love to step up to TSX, because they now drive beat up older cars. On the other hand, I know some people who drive expensive automobiles, that wouldn't be seen in a TSX. Then again I know people, who can afford anything and they drive older American cars. Again, it's all about value. But value is subjective.
TSX does feel like a substantial car on the inside and from the driver's seat for its price. Thats value.
Oh, and wouldn't you call Lexus GS300 or BMW 330 a better value than IS300? I would, if $4K didn't matter to me.
Exactly the point value is subjective. I can afford the 4K, and I think the 330i has more value to me than it's competitors. OTOH, friends who can afford anything, don't place much value on either car and go with an older America vehicle.
Coach vs. First class is a value on the premium in service. Much like leather vs. cloth.
I don't consider getting more for more a better value.
BTW, does IS300 has leather, or cloth at $29K?
If the TSX is your line in your own sandbox that's cool, but as people we each have our own line in different places in our own sandboxes.
IMO, TSX is not the best value around when you consider a lot of other cars. But it is, better than IS300 anyday.
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While I have no problem with FWD I kinda decided I would give RWD a try for a while too. So the IS fits my new buying pattern. There is definitely a IS in my future.
But first......I'm buying an Element cause....I'M GONNA BE FREAKIN' DAD. I'm beside myself today. Anybody see Anonymousposts around, you can congratulate her. She's gonna have a little post-it...ette something like that.
Honda should've called it the Elephant, since it's slow, bulky, grey and carries a ton of stuff.
"carsdirect in my zip code has a loaded IS with everything cept NAV at $29,000 which is $1000 less than my TSX was going to be."
I don't know about fertility though. I'm 33 and this is my first offspring.
I love the Element though. I think it's perfect for kids too. And yes I agree it's ugly. That's the appeal.
The TSX also seems roomier and more confortable, and uses a lot less gas.
Rear Wing Spoiler$599.00
Cargo Net 32.00
Door Edge Trim$70.00
Fog Lights$359.00
Side Under Body Spoiler$452.00
Rear Under Body Spoiler$358.00
Front Under Body Spoiler$358.00
And those prices don't include installation.
The interior isn't as nice looking as the TSX's but you have to add for the RWD and the bonafide 6 cylinder engine.
Just as the TSX is a steal in the entry lux class. An IS at 29K is very nice for a RWD 6 cylinder.
where does your seat of your pants experience of driving a car fit into your priorities? the test drive of the tsx may reinforce your desire for the IS or it may not.
If you like IS better at $29K (as equipped, ofcourse), get it, but don't compare pricing by loading one up and stripping the other out. Better yet, wait to see what the new IS brings (if it is due for replacement). You may be able to get the old for even less.
Actually we were out having dinner AND looking at the next best thing compared to a TSX. Found a 2003 EX-L 5-speed sedan with NAV ... IN SILVER! And built in Japan. WHOA! Now that we might be parents the 03 Accord coupe has to go ... what better to replace it with than an Accord sedan? WITH NAV. and built in Japan.
I just spent a week with a 4-door rental Hyundai Elantra. What a poor excuse for an automobile... well, like they say, "You get what you pay for."
The Elantra is pretty much "basic transportation". No wonder it's in a rental car fleet. It's got an engine, 4 wheels and some seats. What more do you need?
To be fair, it has a sunglasses holder, power locks and windows. But man! The A/C dashboard registers were lousy and hard to adjust, the seats were incredibly uncomfortable, it had abyssmal acceleration and non-confidence-inspiring handling, plus the brakes made funny creaking noises!
I'm happy to get back in my TSX! Whew! Don't ever call the TSX "basic transportation".
same question between JP's honda Legend and RL.
oh, one more year's warranty, that's only think I can think of.
And then there is an Accord 24T, which is similar to 24S, but with regular (touring) suspension.
And the top of the line Japanese Accord is the 24TL, most but the extreme (lane maintenance, adaptive cruise control, smart card key etc) luxury features are standard to go with touring suspension package.
TSX is a combination of 24TL (features) and 24S (sport package) and is still different. 24S is not offered with manual transmission in Japan (none of the Accords, equipped with the 2.4 liter engine are), but TSX is. The chassis is further refined to improve ride quality besides some other tweaks (softer springs, just a little higher profile tire spec). Interior is completely different (Japanese Accord is identical to American Accord).
RL, OTOH, is simply called the Legend, in Japan. It is virtually the same car (features differ as more options are available, including less equipped trims).
5-Year Total
Acura Mazda Saab
Insurance $5888 $4760 $4440
Maintenance $4290 $3859 $3497
Now of course the Acura TSX numbers are just averages of the RSX and TL, but assuming they are fairly accurate, can anyone explain why the Acura is more expensive in these categories and secondly, why Japanese cars seem in general more expensive than European cars (I also compared Audi A4, Jaguar X-Type and the Volvo S60).
Thanks.
Tony
Good luck.
INKY
As far as insurance is concerned, right now it is expensive to insure a TSX. The main issue is that it has not been crash tested. Once that happens, it should be a relatively inexpensive car to insure because it only has a 4-banger.
The RSX was and is an expensive car to insure because it is frequently stolen. Many RSX parts are interchangeable with the Civic. So, insurance on the RSX is high because of larger number of claims.
As for the TL, that is not a frequently stolen vehicle but for several years there were lots of claims because it had some expensive losses of parts that were interchangeable with the Accord (like the HIDs).
The TSX doesn't suffer from these issues, so that I expect that insurance will be reasonable, eventually.
The TSX will be very reliable, because it is an Acura. So, high maintence costs should not be an issue, although Acura delearships are not cheap and Acura parts can be expensive. The TSX has some parts that are interchangeable with the Accord (like Oil filters and some engine parts) but not enough for you to benifit from the cheap availability of Honda parts.
In summary, I don't think the TSX will be as expensive to own as either the RSX or TL. I also think it will be cheaper over the longterm than cars like the A4 and BMW 325, and perhaps even the Lexus IS300. It won't, however, be cheapter to own than an Accord or something like that.
As far as comparisons with the M6 and Saab are concenred. Saabs require lots of maintence, and parts are very expensive. And, you'll definitely get nailed by the insurance agency for the turbo engine, although Saab's EXCELLENT crash history and low rate of theft should help. The resale value will be poor, as it has been on Saabs for years.
The M6, it is hard to say. Mazda builds a very reliable car (just my opinion, but I think Mazdas are as reliable as Hondas or Toyotas). Mazda dealerships are relatively rare, and parts can be hard to get. But, the next generation of Ford sedans will basically be twins of the Mazda. So, over time, you should find parts and costs to repair to be quite low. The resale value on the previous Mazda 626 was dismal, and Mazda has one of the worst corporate averages for residual values of any car company. It could be a very expensive car to own over time, for that reason alone.
The Saab is showing lower 5-year maintenance primarily because, like most Euro brands, regular maintenance is "free" for 3-yrs/36K miles. As your numbers suggest, this will probably save you $1K or so, depending on whether you would take the Acura or Mazda in for the expensive dealer servicing that typically includes considerable unnecessary services.
The Mazda is cheaper because Mazdas are not a premium marque. It is almost always cheaper to service a Honda, Nissan, Toyota, or Mazda, rather than a Acura, Infiniti, or Lexus. Some of the extra cost usually pays for a nicer service experience, better loaners, etc. If you take it to an independent shop for service, this premium will be reduced.
None of this means the TSX is a less-crashworthy or more unreliable car.
- Mark
As for other maintenance costs, the TSX recommended oil change interval is 10,000 miles (normal schedule) and 5,000 miles (extreme schedule). Based on the guidelines in the TSX owner's manual, it appears that the required maintenance is very infrequent. I plan to do most of the TSX scheduled maintenance myself. Since there's no timing belt, it seems that regular fluid changes and an occasional air filter are the only maintenance needed.
2. Accord would be a more fair comparison to Mazda6.
They sure didn't benchmark the USDM Accord's handling.
That doesn't make it better in everything, just different in some ways. Even with emphasis in handling, Mazda6 isn't selling the way Mazda/Ford would like to. Accord is already considered a bit 'hard' by some, by making it more sport oriented than it is, may create in imbalance in what is a nicely packaged car. You don't mess with success, for as long as you can.
robertsmx:
I will check out Intellichoice and see if there numbers are different than what Edmunds is posting. I will also check out the Accord/TL average vs the RSX/TL average.
uncledavid and markjenn:
Thank you for you very detailed response. I will keep a lookout for TSX crash test results which will hopefully lead to more accurate insurance costs for the vehicle. You are also correct that the mere fact that Acura is considered a premium brand vs Mazda, the maintenance costs are going to be higher. Also, a lot of European brands do have free 3-year/36000 maintenance which I believe is true for Saab which affects the 5-year maintenance costs.
xplorx4:
The fuel-costs were listed separately from the maintenance costs, but with the 4 cylinder TSX using premium fuel and the 6 cylinder 6 using regular they are probably going to be approximately the same: $5378 for TSX (average between TL and RSX), $5300 for 6 and a surprisingly low (relatively speaking) $4855 for the 4-cylinder premium fuel Saab.
Thanks for all the responses.
Tony
(FYI, the insurance company is AMICA; and replacing my 1994 Accord EX with the TSX increased my premium by about $320, some of which was for adding full glass coverage, which I had dropped on the 1994.)
I live in Long Island, NY -- insurance is certainly not cheap here, but the TSX did not really cost a premium...