I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

texases

Did all the GM brands have the 4-door hardtop? I don't remember seeing them, but that means nuttin'...

edit - never mind, of course they did, GM wouldn't have spent that money on just one or two lines.

uplanderguy

The A-body four-doors were on a four-inch longer wheelbase than the coupes and convertibles. I remember first time I sat in the back seat of my sister's '69 Malibu Sport Coupe. My legs are 26 inches long and I was shoehorned in there! I remember seeing in the brochures that the Nova coupe actually had a half-inch more rear seat legroom than the '73 Chevelle coupe, which supposedly had increased rear-seat space over the '72. The trunk in the Nova was .6 cubic feet smaller than the '73 Chevelle though. I believe the '72 Nova coupe not only had a fairly sizeable increase in rear-seat legroom over the Chevelle coupe, but the trunk was also bigger in the Nova. Go figure.

andre1969

I couldn't find specs for '72 Chevies, but did for the '72 Pontiacs. And yep, the back seat of a Ventura II (i.e., Nova) coupe comes in at 32.6", versus 32.2" for the LeMans coupe. The LeMans convertible was only 31.6"!

Oddly, the Ventura II 4-door sedan is also showing more legroom than the LeMans 4-door. 35.7" versus 34.8". They don't list the 4-door hardtop, though. Where the Nova/Ventura II comes up short though, is front legroom: 41" versus 42.4" for the LeMans. It's been awhile since I've been behind the wheel of '68-72 A-body, but I do remember it felt a bit snug to me. But the X-body was considerably worse...it was a lot more uncomfortable to me than that 1.4" loss of legroom would suggest.

Truth be told, the '73-77 Colonades seems a bit tight on front legroom as well. My LeMans's saving grace is having a power seat that extends the range of motion. It doesn't look like the '73 Chevelle brochure lists interior dimensions, but the '73 LeMans does. 42.4" of legroom up front for both 2/4 door. 33.7" in back for the coupe, 38.4" for the sedan. Strangely though, for the '77 LeMans, they list legroom just a bit more, at 42.5", while in back it drops to 32.9" for the coupe and 37.0" for the sedan. Now, I'm not going to quibble about 1/10 of an inch, but I'd really love to know how they lost 1.4" from '73 to '77 in the sedan, for what's essentially the same car.

I have a feeling there's no real set standard to how they measure legroom. One manufacturer might do it differently from another. And over the years they might have changed how they measure it. I remember looking at an old Consumer Reports auto issue from 1957 that listed legroom of the various cars, and I seem to recall them coming in at around 44-47". I think the '57 DeSoto was listed around 45-46". But, most cars these days range from around 41-43", so I don't believe for a moment those numbers are directly comparable. My 2003 Regal is 42.4" up front, but it's got way more front legroom than my DeSoto. I think my '12 Ram is only listed at 41.5", yet I fit just fine.

uplanderguy

I remember wanting a '73 Chevelle new, but Dad didn't like them and we bought a Nova coupe instead. It is stuck in my mind that the brochure listed 33.4 inches of rear-seat legroom in the Nova coupe vs. 32.9 in the new Chevelle coupe. I remember trunk room in the Nova at 14.7 cu. ft. versus 15.3 in the Chevelle, but I'm thinking the '72 Chevelle had only 12.9 cu. ft.--sheesh!

The Chevelle coupe's wheelbase was only one inch longer than the Nova, but you did get hardtop styling and body-on-frame construction, two pretty biggish things I think.

uplanderguy

Just looked at the U.S. brochures online and don't see interior dimensions for '73. I have to believe the numbers I'm remembering are from the big old showroom album I was given by our family's Chevy salesman at the end of the model year. I also had the '71 album. Sold both at Carlisle years ago.

uplanderguy

Last Corvair built this date (May 14) in 1969 in Ypsilanti, MI, to make way for more Nova production there (which was outselling it by about a zillion to one).

I love those last Corvairs and would have one if I wasn't into Studebakers first (although I probably would have a harder time finding someone to work on a Corvair than a Studebaker; I'd always heard most Chevy dealers had one dedicated Corvair guy in the shop). Make mine a hardtop with the four carbs.

Found this site, the GM Heritage Center, with a NOS '69 Monza convertible with fewer than fifty miles. Beautifully styled in and out IMHO, and look at that flat floor.

https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-vehicle-collection/1969_Chevrolet_Corvair.html

I always thought that if you got the low-line "500" model with bench seats, and the Powerglide with control sticking out of the dash, you really had a little two-door hardtop with six-passenger (decent) seating space. There was really nothing else like it.

stickguy

I would love a corvair exactly like that, even the colors. A coupe version would be fine also.

kyfdx

stickguy said:

I would love a corvair exactly like that, even the colors. A coupe version would be fine also.

I'd want a coupe..

stickguy

Probably a better car, and safer bet that old.

texases

That GM Heritage Corvair seems kind of 'nose up' in the first pic. I wonder why - sagging rear springs maybe?

uplanderguy

I generally don't want convertibles myself--seems like cars lose a lot of styling with the roof cut off!

Maybe sagging rear springs, and maybe no gas? Good question.

I seem to remember if you bought a '69 Corvair, they ended up giving you either $300 or $500 off in a coupon towards your next new Chevrolet in I think it was five years. Truth be told, I can't imagine a small Chevrolet I'd have wanted nearly as much in five years after 1969, LOL

ab348

Here's a pic I found yesterday taken in October of 1977 at McMahon Chevrolet-Buick-Oldsmobile in Morristown, VT. It blows up to a huge size if you right-click and view the image. I became all nostalgic seeing the Chevy 2-door, the downsized Olds A-body fastback, and the Nova, all brand-new.

Makes sense that Vermont likes 4WD vehicles too, so that explains the Jeep products in the background. Not sure if McMahon also sold them new back then.

fintail

Re: coupons, I think Ford offered the same to Edsel buyers after it was announced that the brand was being axed.

explorerx4

When I was scrolling through the pic's of the Corvair, when I came to one and said to myself, "That's Weird, another air cleaner in the trunk". DOH!

uplanderguy

I bet that dealer's long-gone, ab348. Used to be dealers like that everywhere when you drove on two-lane roads.

omarman

The text at the Heritage Center is, "This Corvair convertible is an original example with less than 50 miles on the odometer. Engine: 164 CID Horizontally Opposed 6, 95 Horsepower"

But there's a 110 deck emblem and the air cleaner housing shows 110 hp.

Supposedly the very last Corvair #6000 was a gold 1969 2 door with the 95 hp engine and powerglide but nobody knows what happened to it after it left the factory.

I wonder if Ralph has a barn.

uplanderguy

Yeah, the engine in that convert is definitely a 110.

There are pics online of no. 6000 on the line and afterwards, but no real clear photos IMHO.

Funny, there are stories, and a pic I saw this morning, of how 5999 wouldn't start and had to be pushed off the line....Corvair buffs always say it was fate or something, or somebody, not wanting the last Corvair to come off the line, LOL.

stickguy

Pinto and long nose econoline window van up the street from the dealer.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

I bet that dealer's long-gone, ab348. Used to be dealers like that everywhere when you drove on two-lane roads.

Apparently still around according to reviews online. Not sure if they are still in that location.

uplanderguy

Wow, good for them! They apparently had a decent-size area to themselves and probably had good CSI scores.

andre1969

Looks like McMahon still exists, but moved to a bigger location out in a more rural area (no curbs). Google map 856 VT-100 Hyde Park, Vermont. When facing North, the dealer is to the left, and the name "McMahon" is on the left side of the front of the building.

That black and white pic from late '77 does have a nostalgic look to it. I can almost picture Dick and Joanna Loudon driving down from the Stratford Inn and trading their '73 Delta 88 in on a Cutlass Ciera

uplanderguy

I'd step in there in that pic to order my black Malibu Classic coupe, gold pinstriping, 305, THM, F41, A/C, Sport wheel covers, whitewalls, camel cloth 50/50 front bench seats, Special Instrumentation, Cruise Control, tinted glass, body side moldings, Deluxe bumpers, AM/FM radio with rear seat speaker, LH outside remote-control mirror, front and rear floor mats.

That's exactly what I wanted then, and still would....at the time friends wanted Camaros, Corvettes, or 280-Z's, LOL. No doubt harder to find and keep in good condition than a '73-77, but more in tune with today IMHO.

stickguy

Out driving around, a very clean looking 1970ish Ford LTD 2 door. Not a common sighting.

andre1969

I think I'd go for a '78 Impala coupe, but fully loaded and with the 350. Even though the Caprice had a nicer interior, I usually preferred the Impala's detail, such as the grille, to the Caprice. And in one of their green hues. Didn't they have a green that year that was sort of a frosty, light color? Similar to the early 80's Jadestone, but not quite exact? I know I've seen a '77 LeMans in that color, but I can't remember if that color carried through to '78? I seem to recall a dark green as well...kind of like the '72 Sequoia, but with just a hint of blue mixed in. But again, I remember seeing a '77 Catalina that color, but I'm just drawing a blank on '78.

ab348

My preference would be a Bonneville Brougham coupe, which you could order with the Olds 403 IIRC. To me that was the best-looking of the downsized B-bodies, and getting one with a 403 is a big plus. I like the Bonne 2-door better than the Olds or Buick alternatives.

ab348

These Vermont historical pictures are a great time-waster. You can search the database and they seem to have a fair number of automobile dealerships in their library. The link: https://www.uvm.edu/landscape/

Here is a fascinating group, from March of 1968. Ken Frawley Chevrolet was in Newport, VT, way up north near the Canadian border. It is tiny, with just 4000 people living there nowadays. The Chevy dealer was pretty disreputable-looking even for the times, with a ramshackle little building and a muddy used car lot:



The used car selection was pretty interesting though. The photographer took a number of pics:






What I presume is the service department:



I bet GM corporate loved dealing with places like this. Apparently this was almost the final few weeks/months for this location, as this site says they moved in 1968: No sign of them now though. They may have switched affiliations to FCA.

https://www.caledonianrecord.com/orleans_county_record/news/derby-history-part-ii----frawley-s-chevrolet/article_bcd8286a-2346-5233-8abe-1816fed77e1e.html

BTW, all these pics expand to an enormous size with a right-click/view. I'd be happy to take that '68 4-4-2 and rescue it from the mud.

fintail

Assuming that dealer lacked Caddy, I might pick one of these:



I always thought the styling of these was quite handsome. It must be without a vinyl top, and it should have Buick wheels. IIRC these could be had with a turbo, although I suppose the largest V8 possible is best for this car.

The Pontiac equivalent would be a good alternative.

uplanderguy

Geez, that place is shabby-looking even by 1968 standards. RE.: What the district GM folks thought when they come to town--I always think that about my hometown dealer's Ford dealer, the only dealer still in town-proper. When I was a kid it was Loblaw's supermarket. Because of that, it has a big lot out front, but there are a lot of pillars inside the building.

andre--re.: Impala coupes of those years...we had one and I know what you mean, although I like the '78 front end and taillights the least of the '77-79 years. I still do generally think the first-year styling of any new iteration is the best, then after that they just changed stuff to change it. I liked the '77 Impala's simple grille and taillights, and the seating and door panels are fine by me but that plasticky dash is a turnoff for me. That said, there have been times when I thought I'd have liked the Impala for it's smaller rocker trim too, and maybe would've considered one with the optional instrumentation, digital clock, and split 50/50 seats, which even in an Impala got you dual folding center armrests, a nice touch I think. I like the Chevy coupe's roofline and rear glass best of all the GM big cars.

I liked the Buicks except for the yellow taillight lenses in part, and the Pontiac had a nice dash but I wasn't crazy about the skirts and rocker trim a third of the way up the side. I've seen some that had that trim, body side moldings, pinstripes that included at the top of the bodysides and around the wheel openings. That's a lot of decoration! The 403 engine is a huge plus though of course.

The Delta 88 coupes are my least-favorite of all the big GM coupes for styling in those '77-79 years, both in and out, although I think all of the GM big cars of that period, as long as you had a 350 engine as minimum, were good cars, super-quiet, and smooth and pleasant to drive.

uplanderguy

RE.: That '68 4-4-2 in the pic--ab, you may remember my telling you some time back that a female friend from college whom I still keep in touch with, got a '68 4-4-2 as a gift from her father. Her dorm room number was "442" and she liked the late-seventies cars with the big "442" graphics in the stripes and was disappointed when she got her '68, LOL! I've told her many times she 'done better'!

I have seen and ridden in the car, first in about 1981. It's trimmed like a Supreme--vinyl top, full wheel covers, whitewalls. It's a dark plum color, black vinyl top, red vinyl buckets and floor-shift automatic. I always wondered if it was a real 4-4-2. Long story short, her husband passed and they had a memorial party up at her Dad's in the country, and I went, and that's where the car was stored. It was very solid, doors closed well, looked decent. I brought with me numbers from online to verify that it was a real 4-4-2, and it was. It was built in Oshawa, ON and has factory A/C which makes me think it originally went down south somewhere as in our general area, A/C on GM mid-sizes was not often-seen. Her Dad has since passed and she supposedly gave the car to her older cousin to restore around working on other customers' cars, but I haven't heard any progress on the car since. She has been busy getting her Dad's property prepared for sale so I haven't bugged her about it, but I am curious.

andre1969

For some reason I was thinking only Chevy models when I made that '78 Impala comment. If we expanded to other divisions, my favorite would probably be a Catalina coupe. Like with the Chevies, I just prefer the less pretentious styling details of the Catalina. As for engines, officially, the 400 was the biggest engine you could get for "49 state" certified areas. For California, and possibly high altitude areas, the Olds 403 was substituted.

However, there might still have been instances where a 403 ended up in a 49-state car. It happened with the 350-range cars. There was a '77 or 78 Bonneville coupe at the GM show in Carlisle a few years back, and I remember chatting with the owners. When I noticed it had an Olds 350, I asked them if it came from California originally. They said that no, it was a local PA car. In '77, the Olds 350 was substituted for the Pontiac 350 in California. Pontiac dropped its own 350 for '78, and started using Buick 350s. Only problem is, the Buick 350 was also banned in CA, so CA cars still got the Olds unit in '78. And '79-80.

As for the dashboards, the Pontiac was always my favorite in that downsized B-body era. It seemed both high quality and attractive. The Olds dash seemed high quality, but I just didn't find it that attractive. It just seemed like it was too tall, the strip speedo was too distorted, and there just seemed to be a bit of randomness to the way the various components were thrown on. The Chevy dash, for the most part, was attractive enough, but I just thought it seemed a bit cheap. I do like the versions with the four round gauge faces (or is that "gage" since we're talking GM? Hey, where's the "Gen" light? ) that I tend to associate with a Pontiac Parisienne. The four square gauge faces, not so much. And that base version, with the strip speedo flanked by two round gauge faces, just doesn't seem attractive at all. The Buick dash bugged me because, while I thought it was very attractive, and seemed fairly high quality, instrumentation was sparse and the glovebox was small. You could get extra-cost gauges on the Chevy/Olds/Pontiac, but I don't think Buick ever offered it. One nice detail though about the Buick, is that the glovebox door was metal.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

The Delta 88 coupes are my least-favorite of all the big GM coupes for styling in those '77-79 years, both in and out, although I think all of the GM big cars of that period, as long as you had a 350 engine as minimum, were good cars, super-quiet, and smooth and pleasant to drive.

When I went to the Olds Centennial in Lansing in 1997 there were all sorts of vendors there and one of them was selling posters. I forget the particular theme (possibly it was the Olds 88 through the years) but one of them contained an image of the downsized '77 Delta 88 that must have been a styling proposal from GM Design. That version had a similar slanted rear quarter window as the Buick and Pontiac. It transformed the appearance of the car and to me looked much better than the rectangular one that went into production. I can only assume that at the last minute it was decided that Olds needed something to distinguish itself from the other makes and they stuck the rectangle version in its place. My memory tells me I bought the poster but I must have stored it along with some of the other things I bought somewhere since I have no memory of seeing it since.

ab348

andre1969 said:

As for the dashboards, the Pontiac was always my favorite in that downsized B-body era. It seemed both high quality and attractive. The Olds dash seemed high quality, but I just didn't find it that attractive. It just seemed like it was too tall, the strip speedo was too distorted, and there just seemed to be a bit of randomness to the way the various components were thrown on. The Chevy dash, for the most part, was attractive enough, but I just thought it seemed a bit cheap. I do like the versions with the four round gauge faces (or is that "gage" since we're talking GM? Hey, where's the "Gen" light? ) that I tend to associate with a Pontiac Parisienne. The four square gauge faces, not so much. And that base version, with the strip speedo flanked by two round gauge faces, just doesn't seem attractive at all. The Buick dash bugged me because, while I thought it was very attractive, and seemed fairly high quality, instrumentation was sparse and the glovebox was small. You could get extra-cost gauges on the Chevy/Olds/Pontiac, but I don't think Buick ever offered it. One nice detail though about the Buick, is that the glovebox door was metal.

The Olds dash always baffled me. It seemed to be designed by an engineer rather than a stylist because, as you say, it was a selection of rectangles seemingly scattered at random and did not make great use of the available space. One of the things that always baffled me is why they decided to put a cruise control on/off switch on the dash on the far right side of the space, next to the rear defog switch. And they put it in a rectangular box that doesn't quite line up with the box for the clock above it!



The Olds glovebox door was also metal, but given that it was facing the passenger fairly high up on the dash, it was covered with some sort of padding and a vinyl skin.

tjc78

Yeah the CC switch is a mystery. It’s like they had room so let’s just stick there.

kyfdx

We had a local dealer like that, even into the late '80s. And, just 15 miles from downtown Cincinnati.

uplanderguy

That Olds dash--my good friend's grandfather in our town had new '77 and '78 or '79 dark blue Delta 88 sedans that looked nearly identical--the '77 was in an accident so he bought a new car. His had no A/C and I thought I remembered a "Delta 88" nameplate somewhere on the dash but I don't see it in that pic.

UPDATE: I think his had no clocks so it was where the clock would be.

uplanderguy

We had a local dealer like that, even into the late '80s. And, just 15 miles from downtown Cincinnati.

A GM dealer? Wow!

My daughters both went to Miami in Oxford, probably twenty-five or thirty miles away from Cinci? There was never a new-car dealer there when they went there, which surprised me. You'd think if nothing else there'd be service demand. A friend graduated there in '69 and he remembers Ford and Chevy dealers in town. A little research online and I saw that the Chevy dealer was called Ziliox Motors at least into the '70's. I saw an ad (groan) that said "Don't be a silly ox; trust Ziliox!".

kyfdx

uplanderguy said:

We had a local dealer like that, even into the late '80s. And, just 15 miles from downtown Cincinnati.

A GM dealer? Wow!

My daughters both went to Miami in Oxford, probably twenty-five or thirty miles away from Cinci? There was never a new-car dealer there when they went there, which surprised me. You'd think if nothing else there'd be service demand. A friend graduated there in '69 and he remembers Ford and Chevy dealers in town. A little research online and I saw that the Chevy dealer was called Ziliox Motors at least into the '70's. I saw an ad (groan) that said "Don't be a silly ox; trust Ziliox!".

Kenton County Motors in Independence, KY

ab348

uplanderguy said:

UPDATE: I think his had no clocks so it was where the clock would be.

That's right. Mine didn't have a clock when I bought it in 1997 but the local junkyard was a good source for stuff like that back then and supplied one from an early-80s Delta. Pop off the dash woodgrain plastic (2 screws that held it in along with clips that let you pop it out), remove the Delta nameplate blockoff plate and use the screws from it to install the clock. Conveniently the wiring was already in the dash so it just plugged right in and worked. It was a later quartz clock so kept good time and was more reliable than the older Borg mechanical clocks.

andre1969

I wonder if Olds was trying to keep the general theming of the '76 big car dash when they downsized? Only, it didn't translate that well? Here's a '76 Ninety-Eight for comparison...



In some respects it's similar, with the strip speedometer, only 3 HVAC ducts instead of the more common 4, high-mounted glovebox, and styling that makes it look wider than it really is. The downsized dash also seems to be stuck a bit, between dash styles that were more cockpit themed, focusing things more on the driver, and that wide, linear, spread-out look.

Oldsmobile knew how to make a good looking dash. I think the '76 big car dash looks good. Conservative, but that fit the tastes of the buyer. The Cutlass dash, which would be closer in side to the downsized cars, also looked good. And, even when the Cutlass downsized for '78, the dash still looked good, albeit a bit more "corporate".

The HVAC ducts on the downsized Olds is also a minor quibble with me. It bugs me that there are only three instead of the more normal four, and there's just no symmetry to them. There's a little square one to the left, the long, horizontal one in the middle, and the long vertical one to the right. The center and right ones are probably big enough though, that airflow is about the same as it would be with four more regular-sized vents.

I guess I just think of it as a "more is better" mentality, like back when a car with four headlights usually meant a step up and once upon a time the sign of a luxury car was how many ashtrays it had! But, I've had two cars that have had five HVAC ducts in the dash. My '82 Cutlass Supreme had three vertical ones in the enclosure that housed the gauges, and two thin, horizontal ones in the woodgrain over the glovebox...


My 2000 Intrepid also had five ducts. I guess though, that more ducts isn't necessarily an upgrade, since it would make airflow a bit weaker, unless your fan was stronger? But at the same time, I guess more ducts helps even the airflow out more quickly as well?

sda

Mom’s 78 Olds 98 had the 403. It was a good engine, smooth, quiet but with the tall rear axle ratio, 2.41 (?), quick but not fast. When the car was traded, it had 190k+, the odometer failed. It still ran well with no oil consumption between changes. The Motor Trend TV channel from our cable provider is 403, lol.

ab348

tjc78 said:

Yeah the CC switch is a mystery. It’s like they had room so let’s just stick there.

There were at least 3 variations of what went there. I've seen 1, 2, or 3 switches there, the third being the tailgate window switch on wagons. There was a narrower opening in the dash panel if you only had one switch too! I don't know if there was also a version with no switch at all. I think rear defog was standard (the brochure is silent on the subject) so they all might have had at least a single switch there.

imidazol97

andre1969 said:

I wonder if Olds was trying to keep the general theming of the '76 big car dash when they downsized? Only, it didn't translate that well? Here's a '76 Ninety-Eight for comparison...


onger? But at the same time, I guess more ducts helps even the airflow out more quickly as well?

I count 5 air vents: 3 on dash front and one each in front of passenger and driver low on the dash that would blow onto knees and thighs. I recall my 77 Cutlass had one of those IIRC. It helped cooling.

andre1969

imidazol97 said:

andre1969 said:

I wonder if Olds was trying to keep the general theming of the '76 big car dash when they downsized? Only, it didn't translate that well? Here's a '76 Ninety-Eight for comparison...

But at the same time, I guess more ducts helps even the airflow out more quickly as well?

I count 5 air vents: 3 on dash front and one each in front of passenger and driver low on the dash that would blow onto knees and thighs. I recall my 77 Cutlass had one of those IIRC. It helped cooling.

I had totally forgotten about those low-mounted "crotch coolers". I was just thinking about the ducts that were mounted high up on the dash. So, then we'd be talking about 6 vents instead of 5.

And damn, that blue Olds looks like a nice, comfy place to just dive into, on a hot summer day!

omarman

Some of the ads for Buick in the late 70's had some strange imagery. Like the LeSabre coupe above with a bearded sketchy looking guy holding Stars and Stripes in his right hand and Stars and Bars in the left hand. Why?

Here's a '79 LeSabre ad below with a group of clowns and other Halloween costumed adults on the left but the kids are off to the right and not looking to Trick or Treat tonight. Again I wonder what image Buick was going for back then? Especially the driver.

andre1969

My guess is the adults are heading off to a "key party" and the kids are going to be left to fend for themselves? Hey, it WAS the 70's!

uplanderguy

That is a contrast to the early '70's Chevy ads with the clean cut youngish family with 2.3 kids in front of some historical U.S. vacation spot.

uplanderguy

Was behind this old Checker cab in Stow, OH this morning. Sorry for the not-great photo. It was rather scary looking as it drove by me. Two of the three brake lights (including the later-added center one) were burned out. But, boy if it could talk! These were built in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

kyfdx

If it could talk: Ewwwww, what is that on my seat?

fintail

Would that be a turbo model? Buick rally wheels have to be in the top domestic wheel designs of all time. Nice Big Wheels, too.

omarman said:

Some of the ads for Buick in the late 70's had some strange imagery. Like the LeSabre coupe above with a bearded sketchy looking guy holding Stars and Stripes in his right hand and Stars and Bars in the left hand. Why?

Here's a '79 LeSabre ad below with a group of clowns and other Halloween costumed adults on the left but the kids are off to the right and not looking to Trick or Treat tonight. Again I wonder what image Buick was going for back then? Especially the driver.

roadburner

Back in the early '80s I saw a car hauler loaded withe new civilian Checkers. Some of the last ones built I'd guess.