I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

Mr_Shiftright

Those early Hondamatics are kind of strange. You have to shift manually from low to high gear. It's not fully automatic.

andre1969

in high gear in a HondaMatic?

Another tranny I never fully understood was the old semi-automatic Fluid Drive that Chrysler used to have. My understanding was that you could start off in low, and have two gears that it switched automatically between, or start off in high, which gave you two taller gears that the car would switch between. And if you wanted to switch from one range to the other, that was the only time you had to use the clutch?

My Granddad's '53 DeSoto had the Fluid Drive, but I couldn't remember the last time that thing had been run, and he ended up selling it right before my 16th birthday, so I don't remember ever seeing it in action.

kyfdx

Isn't that the same way the "automatic stickshift" in early '70s VWs worked?

I test-drove a Hondamatic when they were new .. in '77 or '78, I think... Just two-speeds.. No clutch.. just rev it up in first, let off throttle, and push it up into second.. Hey! kind of like SMG minus four gears..

Mr_Shiftright

Basically Fluid Drive was a torque converter with an actual clutch and gearbox from a "normal car". You couldn't start the car in gear but once you were rolling, you could stop the car and not depress the clutch, remain in third and even start up in third....very slowly! Many people started in second and shifted once.

I don't know why they did this exactly. I guess to save development costs on a fully automatic transmission. Basically all they accomplished was to allow the driver to stop without throwing the clutch pedal in. I guess it was good for traffic, and that was the selling point. It was slow-acting and rather inefficient, compared to the vastly superior GM hydra-matic, which had been out since 1941, ten years or so before Fluid Drive. Chrysler was considered a technically backward, old man's car until perhaps the 1955 300 series came out. And that assessment would have been correct.

VW shift-shift (also called Sportomatic by Porsche) was a bit different. There was no clutch pedal. In VW's case the clutch was actuated by a vacuum solenoid. The clutch disengaged each time you just touched the gearshift lever. So you had to learn not to rest on the gearshift as you drove, as this would fling you into neutral so to speak. Renault had a similar system called the Ferlac clutch, in this case activated MAGNETICALLY of all things. The Germans had the HYDRAK, which as you might suspect was hilariously over-engineered and as complicated as an early V-2 rocket. That one worked with a series of solenoids and relays, so essentially an electric clutch.

Yes, it is my recollection that you could start off in high gear in the Hondamatic. I think they explained the whole thing by calling low gear the "city gear", to get people in the habit of using it. If you didn't, acceleration was pretty morbid.

andre1969

the fluid drive was just a 3-speed unit, and not a 4-speed?

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, with a very low-low to get the old tugboat going. Four-speeds were unheard of in American cars until I guess the Corvette in the late 1950s. Most Americans only knew them through European cars in the 40s and 50s.

Those were the times when the difference between a European car and a domestic one were startling. If you jumped from an American sedan into a European sports car, it was like entering an entirely different universe. It was so different it was dis-orienting.

andre1969

of a '53 DeSoto Firedome convertible with Fluid Drive. 0-60 was about 17 seconds, according to CR, I think. It was a whole different era, though, and they were actually impressed that the 160 hp Hemi actually trimmed about 4 seconds in acceleration, versus the inline 6.

Mr_Shiftright

Basically a slug nonetheless, compared to a GM V-8 with hydramatic. Those old "Hemis" are not the ones of legend when we use the term today.

wimsey1

A few weeks ago I was out at Gingerman Raceway for a Brit car event. It was rainy and had a low turnout but there were some interesting vehicles including three sets of three odd ones.
3-Lotus Esprit (one a '77 Series 1)
3-TVR's
3-Corvairs including a race ready Yenko Stinger.
Saw a Lotus Elise there the next week.

Saw a new Bentley Continetal GT, Smaller than I expected. I rather like the chunky, hunky style, but am amazed that the thing weighs 5350 lbs. That's Suburban territory. But I guess 550 hp, 12 cylinders and huge sneakers help. First Bentley I've liked since...

andre1969

CR did a comparison of a '55 Fireflite (200 hp) and a '55 Olds 98 (forget the hp, but I think it was a 312 V-8?), and by that time the DeSoto was down to about 13 seconds, versus 11.8 for the Olds.

And by '56, I think the 255 hp Fireflite was down to about 10 seconds. And for '57, the Mopar Hemis were positively eating their competition for lunch. The engines themselves were great, it's just the trannies that were holding them back in the early days. For instance, a DeSoto 276.1 put out 160 hp, whereas Olds in that same timeframe (52-54) needed a 303 to get 160 hp. And the Chrysler 331 usually put out a lot more hp than the Cadillac 331.

I wonder if there's an adaptor kit you could use to mate up a Hemi with a Hydramatic? That sounds like it would be a great combination!

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, you can mate a Hydramatic to just about any engine.

Aside from the transmissions, the build quality of Chrysler products in the 1950s was pretty awful, and this bad reputation hurt their sales quite a bit. Probably 1958 was the worst of the worst.

Of course, by now these old cars are either junked or select ones have been restored to a condition far superior than how Chrsyler built them, so the issue is rather moot.

bumpy

I'm in eastern Virginia. The Catalina looks pretty good for something that old, much better than the '69ish Bonneville coupe buried in the local Chevy dealer's boneyard.

The Ventura has '350' badges on the front fenders, so somebody had some extra cash in 70-whatever that would have been more wisely spent on better paint.

And for something obscure that's not older than I am, how about a Trailblazer-clone Bravada?

grbeck

...did all 1950s Chrysler products have bad build quality? I've read that the 1957 and later models were pretty bad, as Chrysler had rushed them to market ahead of schedule, but I've never read much about the Mopars built earlier in the decade.

And how did the Fords, Lincolns and Mercurys of the 1950s compare? I've read that the 1949-51 Ford Motor Company products suffered from body fit problems (again, because they were rushed to market), but not much about the later models.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the 1958s were regarded as the worst of the worst. Back in earlier times, when they were more old man's cars, they were pretty solid. My own personal opinion is that in the late 1950s, GM stood head and shoulders above any other domestic in build quality...."quality" being a relative term of course.

Probably the low survival rate supports this theory, but who knows for sure?

andre1969

was that Mopars up through 1954 were built like tanks, probably moreso than GM and Ford products of the time. And trips I've made to the junkyards over the years, and all the old cars I've seen at shows and swap meets seem to bear this out. Those things just didn't rust out like many other cars did. The main problem with those older Mopars was their stodgy styling. They were trying to go for tall, comfortable cars where a man could get inside without taking off his hat. In that respect, they succeeded compared to the low, swoopy GM and Ford products of the time, but back then flashy new styling was top priority.

The '55-56 Mopars were also pretty sturdy, but more rust-prone than the '49-54's. And in 1955, they also shed their dowdy image, and actually began to wrest the styling leadership from GM.

1957's biggest problem was that the cars were just rushed into production too early. I think they were originally intended to be 1958 models. They were also wildly popular, so they rushed them down the assembly lines. Main issues were water leaks around the windows, especially the rear window, and body rust.

1957 was also a bad year for Ford, as far as QC goes. The '57 Ford was also wildly popular, actually displacing the Chevy as the #1 nameplate. However, the cars were very poorly put together. They rusted out every bit as badly as the Plymouths, yet had the added "bonus" of a body that was so shaky that the doors would occasionally pop open on rough, twisty roads. Ford drivetrains just weren't as durable as Mopar drivetrains at the time, either.

I've always theorized that the main reason the '57 Chevy is so popular is because it had a fairly rust-resistant body, but a crap drivetrain (from a durability standpoint, NOT a performance standpoint). They were also smaller and lighter than Fords and Plymouths. That was a handicap in 1957, when the cars were all-new, and longer-lower-wider was the order of the day. However, to the customizers and modders, it made them very appealing. It's easier to hop up a good body with a junk drivetrain than a junk body with a good drivetrain!

But then, by 1959, GM was getting bad enough with their bodies that people were actually complaining, and asking sarcastically if it was possible for them to roll their sheetmetal any thinner! The 70's proved that the answer to that was "yes"!

I'd imagine that by '57-58, the best-built domestic was the Buick and Olds. They used a modified version of that X-frame, that had outer rails, negating the vulnerability of that design in t-bone accidents. This link: http://www.tocmp.com/brochures/Buick/1957/pages/1957%20Buick%20de- aler%2026_jpg.htm
shows an artist's rendering of the '57 Buick frame. I wonder, though, if it was much better than the Mopar frame, which while it doesn't have that big X in the middle, actually has the frame rails on the outside doubled-up, forming a closed box for most of the length of the car. Buicks and Oldmsobiles were heavy, sturdy cars in that timeframe. An entry-level '57-58 Buick or Olds really wasn't that much bigger than a '58 Chevy, but they were a good 700+ lb heavier. Buick and Olds also used sturdy, overbuilt engines and transmissions.

Mr_Shiftright

Well "built like a tank" isn't necessarily a compliment if you've ever ridden around in a tank. They are pretty crude, albeit strong.

Rust was a big problem for Chrysler. Part of that is sloppy fit and finish but also how the body design works, and what crude it can trap in various places, or what the sealing qualities were.

andre1969

I said "built like a tank"...not "rides like a tank" ;-)

One area where the '57 Mopars were really prone to rusting was the tops of the fenders above the headlights. They didn't have full-enclosed wheel wells, so the tires could sling mud and slop, right off the top of the tire, and throw it up in the crevice there, allowing it to build up.

They'd also rust out in the rear quarters, which is where all cars usually start, but I think it was exaggerated on the '57 Mopars because of the leaky rear windows. For '58, they had a dealer fix for this leak. They would actually install a tray under the rear window that would catch the water, and have tubes that would drain it down through the bottom of the car! Of course, that required cutting a hole somewhere in the trunk floor or those drop-offs at the bottom of the quarter panel, which if done wrong, probably contributed to MORE rusting!

One indication of the survival rate of the cars might be some info I got out of the club roster when I belonged to the National DeSoto club. This was way back around 1989 or so, so it would be extremely outdated now, but I remember the single most popular DeSoto in the club was the 1956. I think there were over 200 of them in the club. In the '57-59 timeframe, I think the most common was the '59. My memory's pretty fuzzy, but I want to say there were maybe 100? The '57 was close to that, and I think there were only about 40-50 '58's.

In contrast, original production figures were approximately:
1956: 110,000
1957: 117,500
1958: 49,000
1959: 45,700

Considering original popularity, and the decline in quality, I'd say the stats in the DeSoto club roster pretty much jive up, except for 1959. I'm wondering if Chrysler did something in 1959 to drastically improve the build quality of their cars? Because otherwise, I don't see anything about a '59 DeSoto that's more desireable than a '57. It doesn't have the Hemi. Its styling is much more heavy-handed and less "pure", as is almost always the case with any model...first year out is usually the best styled. And for the most part, people just don't have the fond memories of 1959 that they do of 1957. In 1957, it seemed like we were on top of the world, but in '59 we were coming out of a recession and starting to clamor for cheap little cars, and a lot of faith was lost in traditional Detroit thinking.

andys120

They didn't have full-enclosed wheel wells, so the tires could sling mud and slop, right off the top of the tire, and throw it up in the crevice there, allowing it to build up.

That reminds me of my '66 TR-4A, which had unlined rear fenders. All the road crap got slung in the upper rear corner of the small tailfin just ahead of the tailight housing and soon (in a matter of a couple of years) caused rust thru at the fender tops. Nasty stuff!

fintail

Today I saw this weird late 70s Toyota pickup that was a dually, and it had some weird extended cab conversion. Really cheesy late 70s looking.

I also saw what is becoming an odd sight, a really immaculate c.1987 BMW 325. Unfortunately it was white, but it looked exceptional.

merckx

I think the 3 Series convertible of that era one of the nicest convertibles extant. It has a very pleasing mixture of uprightness and rounded corners.

lemko

...but uncommon - yesterday spotted a gold 1965 Mustang in excellent shape and an orange 1973 Plymouth Gold Duster in fairly decent shape.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm trying to think of the three kinds of Edsel station wagon (I am over-caffeinated I guess). The top o' the line was Bermuda, the middle was Villager, but I can't think of the base model wagon.

lemko

...was the Roundup.

Mr_Shiftright

That's it! Good man lemko!

Now I wonder who owns "The Last Roundup"?

ghulet

I saw a fairly unusual Chevelle (as Chevelles go), a burgandy with white vinyl top, '73 Chevelle Laguna four-door.

andre1969

along with the '73-75 Grand Am 4-door. Rare beasts, both of 'em. I guess they could almost be considered the first domestic sport sedans?

kyfdx

Lagunas and Grand Ams of that vintage were very cool.. I graduated high school in '75, so I remember them well.. Had a neighbor down the street with a Grand Am..

ghulet

I think his was a '73, burgandy in and out, with power windows. Nice car. Believe it or not, last time I was in Arizona, my cousin Emily had a similar but ratty '73 GTO with a factory three speed on the floor. Not a car I'd necessarily want, but quite rare nonetheless.

lemko

...a dark blue 1974 Chevrolet Caprice coupe in pretty decent condition. What's with that oddball roof and huge rear side windows? I always thought these cars looked weird.

stickguy

I saw a '73 ish Laguna-based El Camino. White, in someones driveway. Not cherry, but looked decent enough.

I should take a look. Maybe it has the swing-out seats (remember those?), which could be good for my sore back.

kyfdx

Weren't those swivel seats in the Monte Carlo?. I remember a sister of my friend had a '73 with those...

andre1969

I hated that design too, when they went to the "Colonade" look on those 2-door Caprices. In '74 the Impala was still available as a hardtop coupe, but the roofline was changed just a bit, compared to the '71-73. It was mainly in the rear quarter windows, C-pillar, and I don't think the rear window was concave anymore, either.

But then I liked what they did with the hardtop coupe Bonneville/Catalina, LeSabre, and Delta 88 for '74. That funky roofline that had those long windows in the C-pillar, but still had a small roll-down window as well.

andre1969

in the Laguna S-3. Didn't the Grand Am and Grand Prix have them as an option, as well?

stickguy

I just remember seeing a magazine ad for the L-3 showing the seats swung out.

Just don't tell me it wasn't normal for a 10 year old kid to be cruising car ads!

lemko

...when I was a kid, I'd read a magazine to just to look at the car ads and nothing else.

fintail

I saw a few oddballs today...a 63 Impala convert, a pretty 39 Buick coupe, and a big shiny black 80s Maserati Quattroporte.

I also drove the fintail today, and had to move a car out of the way to get to it. It was a pristine 180 Ponton owned by real compulsive car buyer who has the place where I store my old beast. I only backed it up...I tried to get a decent shot in the dark with my camera phone. The original cloth interior is astounding:



And then I saw this...the decent looking likely 65 220S fintail I've spotted before, with factory mudflaps. Somehow, I've always liked these...and they are one of the rarest fintail accessories, up there with factory luggage:

fintail

You know what its time for:

This is really pretty, but I suspect the market on these is headed for nothing but a decline

Same for this...nice name though

One of the nicest earlier Checkers left, I bet

Sound looking Hawk with sound bidding

Talk about limited appeal

I didn't know these were ever sold here

I think this is really interesting, I'd like to find the history of this. It's certainly a German body, perhaps by Glaser or something

My dad likes the pickup version of these...I am not so interested

Another car for dad...it wears that blue really well

Funny little gnat, cut the price by 80% and send it back to England

I've never seen anyone restore one of these

Nor one of these...I'd rather have this

Neat wagon

Sunroof fintail...deserves some help

The prettiest fintail seen here in ages. I'll put wide whites like that on mine once my current tires wear or rot

jrosasmc

I didn't know that the Fintails could be had with manual gearboxes. They really came from the factory that way, with the shifter on the column?? (Last car on your list)

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, 4 speeds and often no reverse (but it can be fixed). I recall that you could get a floor shift conversion at one time but I don't know if that's still possible, or even desirable on this particular car. Automatics are my favorite for the fintail.

CHECKER--I often wonder if anyone would admire these cars if they actually drove one for ten blocks. Mom's sofa on ice with the drummer from metallica practicing under your dashboard while you call your chiropractor. Nooooo thanks!

REO-- these cars are fairly well respected. It will bring a decent price even though it is a 4-door....maybe $15K?? Very good quality auto.

STUDIE -- the GT Hawk has been going up in value these last 3 years or so. It'll never be worth the price of a Big Three Big Block but they were quite undervalued for many years.

TRABANT -- a fool and his money, etc....

DESOTO WAGON --- neat car! I hope his reserve isn't too much more than what's bid, however.

MORRIS -- fun little car if a)you aren't in a hurry to get anywhere and b) if you are about 5'5" or smaller.

PEUGEOT -- Good cars, the 404, but pretty worthless in America. Here's the scary part of this ad: "Some fluid leaking from early ZF automatic, but still works good". If that ZF packs it in, you can junk the car for what it will cost you. Most likely, you'll have to ship the trans back to France, as it is a custom made unit. Probably $3,500 later.....Price bid is already a bit high for this one.

RENAULT R10 -- get thee to a shredder! or...."crush me before I kill again".

220SEB -- good score as a parts car at this price! Very iffy as a driver. Too dead too long. But at the price, hey, you can't go wrong. Good buy up to $750 or so.

jrosasmc

I take it the R10 is a worthless vehicle that was troublesome when it was new.

fintail

Yes, fintails often had a 4 speed on the column. Based on my observations, fintails are about half and half manual/automatic.

The first fintails were a 4 on the tree, and very few were ordered with "Hydrak", which was a MB designed clutchless manual that people didn't understand and ended up being troublesome. Shortly after, I think a Borg Warner sourced auto was available. In 1961, MB unveiled its own automatic, a 4 speed fluid-coupling unit that is known for harsh shifting yet amazing durability. I have yet to see an automatic fintail with a bad transmission. Mine has the auto, and it's a fine piece of work, if not harsh now and then.

Most manual fintails were column shift, but I believe the 230 series from 1965 on which replaced the 220 cars could have a floor shift. All automatics are column shift, unlike the coupes.

Fintail/111-112 coupes were also available with a ZF 5 speed manual, which very few were made (also in the 113 SLs I believe). I've seen one, in a 300SE convert. I've seen the transmission offered for $5K alone. There's long been rumors that a handful of the last W112 300SE sedans in 1965 were fitted with the 5 speed. I'd love to find one of those.

ghulet

That Checker has a Buy It Now of $18.5k!! That's beyond insane. Yes, it's in great shape and has 23k miles, but c'mon. Other than that, and the fact that it at least has simple a Chevy drivetrain, what's to recommend here?

What's on the front floor of that DeSoto wagon? It looks like an old radio, but I'm guessing it's actually an aftermarket A/C unit. If so, it's the most crude example I've seen yet.

That black fintail IS pretty. I'm a total sucker for red interiors, too, especially with black paint. I'm so glad someone FINALLY used an alternative to butchering the doors, dash or parcel shelf when putting in an aftermarket stereo. That speaker cabinet on the floor isn't exactly pretty, but it gets the job done, I guess!

ghulet

...out to the south suburbs, actually, well beyond that (beautiful Wilton Center, IL) to see family. Out in the sticks, I guess since the houses are cheaper and most have big garages and lots of land, there are more old cars.

Anyway, I saw the following (more old cars than I usually see in two weeks in the city):

70 Dodge Monaco four-door HT, black, VERY nice, with the factory holed wheels and fog lights (functioning).

63 Olds Starfire HT, burgandy, quite clean

56 Buick Super four-door hardtop, pretty ratty (surface rust, broken glass, but straight and original, decent interior), likely running, as it was sitting on the front end of a farmer's lot, for sale. What a tank!!

BEAUTIFUL green '51 Chevy sedan. Nice car, but I'm sure over-restored; there just isn't a whole lot of interest in these, even perfect, probably not worth $10k.

TWO '70s VW Westfalia campers, almost the same color even (one yellow-orange, one faded orange), both in my neighborhood

fintail

I bet the thing in that DeSoto is AC, yeah. It looks like a small in-window model sitting on the floor. Very crude.

A local free used car rag has a Caddy dealer with a 77 BMW 530, light yellow, ad says it is mint and it looks it. They only want $2700 for it. I'm half tempted to take a look. Very hard to find a decent one of these anymore, and it's nice in that color.

jlawrence01

I spotted two functioning Omni/Horizons of the early '80s. I give the person credit. Anyone who can keep them running has my admiration.

Seen a lot of older econocars lately. My co-worker's '86-88 Tempo just died. AMen.

millspd

Dang, Ghulet, I drive through Wilton Center from time to time!

Hmmm, in a desperate effort to stay on topic, my wife has a 1994 Geo Prizm on loan from the body shop. Guess it's not that obscure but it is a well equipped one.

toomanyfumes

Omni-Horizon's around here. (North of Kenosha, where AMC's Renault Alliance, Now Chrysler has a plant. You still see some AMC's, some in good shape, some bad running around too. The Alliance/Encores are pretty much gone. You'll see one now and then, on it's last legs.

kyfdx

A really nice 928 on the way to work today.. Appeared to be one of the later ones, with the spoiler...

jlawrence01

Wanna a good laugh.

Last month, I was driving through Hawthorne, NV, a town between Las Vegas and Reno. I saw one of the old American Motors signs. They were about twenty feet high with the tri-colors on top. I have to confess that I almost drove off the road.

andre1969

I saw a Subaru Legacy sedan with...a carriage roof!! I couldnt' believe it! It was white and the roof was black, blocking out the rear quarter windows in the C-pillar. When will the madness ever end?!