I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

sda

uplanderguy said:

That TBird Landau must have had the biggest blind spot in the industry then!

And no passenger side door mirror!

andre1969

sda said:

uplanderguy said:

That TBird Landau must have had the biggest blind spot in the industry then!

And no passenger side door mirror!

Yeah, that struck me as a bit odd, too. I figured an upscale car like a T-bird would be likely to have a passenger side mirror. Not standard, but one of those options where the vast majority had them.

At the GM show in Carlisle this past summer, a guy I run into almost every year there asked me if I wanted to buy a passenger side mirror for my Catalina. I told him no. Honestly, it's not like the mirror on the driver's side is all that useful, as it's rather small. And after being used to the car for 29 years now, with no passenger side mirror, it would feel weird, suddenly having one.

uplanderguy

I'm going to guess that 'Bird is a '69, based on head restraints and that I THINK (!) the '70 and '71 had the beak in front and I don't see that in the pic.

Great color, and I'm nearly certain I remember those wheel covers.

uplanderguy

I wasn't spending too much time looking at high-end cars in the late sixties and early seventies, but most every car I remember did NOT have a right-side mirror, unless it had 'Sport Mirrors' (GM name for the body-colored mirrors on both doors). I do remember Cadillacs often having a matching right mirror to the left, but brands less than that, I do not recall seeing that much if at all.

ab348

After I had my Cutlass for a while, one of the first things I did when I decided to have it repainted early in my ownership was to ditch the aftermarket left side mirror it had (I guess the original must have broken or failed and they couldn't be bothered to replace it with same) and have the body shop repair the screw holes that required. The Cutlasses of that era didn't use screws to hold the mirrors on. Instead they had a pair of fairly large key-shaped holes punched in the sheetmetal (which were still there) and the mirror was held on by a pair of flat mushroom-shaped fasteners from below which were tightened down with an allen wrench through a skinny hole above. I bought the proper mirror and installed it easily.

One day a few years later I was at a swap meet and saw a box with the Oldsmobile logo on it. I discovered it was a NOS right side mirror which matched the one on the left. It wasn't too pricey so I grabbed it. After some trepidation in using the enclosed template to mark out the proper holes and grinding them to size with a Dremel grinder, it was installed. To my disappointment I discovered it was useless. Unlike later right side mirrors, it didn't have convex glass, so your field of view was very narrow. It looked nice but that was about it.

kyfdx

My '77 Cobra II came with a right side mirror. But, of course, the adjuster was right below it on the passenger door. Handy, if you had a passenger with you.

uplanderguy

Imidazol, now I think I remember Camden, OH….We’d drive through it as we were approaching Oxford. I remember a donut shop in an old gas station building I always wanted to try but never did.

explorerx4

On my way home, I drove by the dealer where my wife bought her Corsair.
On the street they had a 94 red Mustang GT.
I went to post it here and it was already gone.

fintail

I don't think any of the old Fords my dad had when I was a kid had passenger mirrors. Fintail doesn't - they are a not too rare accessory and I think I could get one for around $100, but I don't feel the need - car has good visibility/sight lines.

andre1969

On the subject of old Fords, does anybody know what era this key would have come from?

My uncle is in the hospital for a smorgasbord of issues, and when he gets out, will probably go into a rehab place for awhile to get his strength back. So yesterday I went and got his 2016 Colorado and brought it over to my place. I wanted to start his 2006 Sienna and move it to another spot in the driveway, so the house didn't look so abandoned. I went rummaging through various places where keys have been hung, or put away, over the years, and somehow came across this!

Other than the '64 Galaxie that Granddad bought back in the 1970's for my Mom to use, because Dad kept driving her "good" car, there has not been a Ford on Mom's side of the family (not counting my stepdad) in my living memory. My uncle did briefly have a '68 or '69 Fairlane, I think, but that was before I can remember.

This key looks pretty old and weathered, but it also looks like one of those two-sided keys that you can stick in either way. Fords wouldn't have had that back in the 60's, would they? I don't remember having a vehicle with a "two way" key like that until my 2000 Intrepid.

Another possibility...my uncle worked in construction for most of his career, and often drove trucks. So I wonder if maybe he brought home a key to one of those work trucks and forgot about it?

I also found a set of Mopar keys, that I think were to either my '68 or '69 Dart. And a key with an AMC logo on it, but says "For American Motors" rather than just "American Motors," so I'm wondering if it's a copy? My uncle had a 1976 Jeep pickup in the early 90's, so it was probably to that.

I also found a Toyota key, and it did go into the ignition of that Sienna, enough to make it chime even, but wouldn't turn it on. He once had a 2003 Corolla, so I wonder if it went to that? I never did find the proper keys to that damn Sienna!

stickguy

Looks like the early 70s. At least what I remember of that early. Probably stretched longer

texases

While I can't give you a year, I do think Ford was an early adopter of this kind of key. '70s for sure, I think.

Edit - turns out they were VERY early, 1965, according to C&D:
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a14499282/the-evolution-of-car-keys-is-more-interesting-than-you-think/

kyfdx

Reminds me of my ‘70 Galaxie

imidazol97

"Evolution of Car Keys
Edge cut keys
The idea of producing car keys started with traditional metal ones. In 1949, Chrysler became one of the first car manufacturing companies to introduce mechanical keys that could turn the ignition on. The mechanical keys on that period had one edge. Later in 1965, Ford invented double-sided keys that were more secure than single-sided keys. Although these keys have cuts on both edges that provided more security than their predecessor, people could still duplicate them."

https://carljarl.com/evolution-of-car-keys/

I keep thinking my 67 Mustang had double edged keys. But I'm not sure and can't verify that.

texases

The C&D article says it was for convenience, no 'wrong way' to put it in. I think your article is correct, there were two sets of tumblers, harder to pick.

andre1969

Wow, I had no idea those double-cut keys came out that early. And to think that 24 model years later, I was still shoving the keys in upside-down in my '89 Gran Fury!

I don't know if this is true or not, but I heard that for a time in the 1960's, Ford only used something like 10 different cuts for their keys. So, while that type of lock might have been harder to pick, if you had a Ford key, you could go up to any Ford product in that year range, and have a 1 in 10 shot of the key working!

On the subject of keys, thanks to a "Mama's Family" episode, I always think of that line of "GM cars, square head ignition only, round key trunk and doors" from where they were trying to teach Mama how to drive.

And, most of the GM cars I'd been familiar with all my life at the time were like that. But then, in 1992, I bought a '69 Bonneville from my cousin. I took it to work one evening, and locked it. But when I came out to unlock it, the round key wouldn't work! I panicked at first, thinking I was going to have to break into it, but then on a whim I tried the square key, and it opened the door! Turns out it was more Chrysler-style, where the same key unlocked the doors and started the car, and another key unlocked the trunk and glovebox.

I occasionally wondered what year GM switched over the the square-head, ignition-only, round key, trunk and doors? The furthest I can narrow it down is sometime between 1969 (my Bonneville) and 1976 (my LeMans)

uplanderguy

At a car show I wouldn’t take this pic, but it is nice to see out in the wild. Crossed flags over the vee indicate it was built as a 327.

The Camry of its day, lol.

‘63 Impala. Pic below.

uplanderguy

The ‘62 is similar but prettier imho…less ‘creased’.

xwesx

@andre1969 That key makes me think 1980s. The earlier keys, from the 60's and 70's, had a more balanced shape to them in terms of the points that stick out on either side of the head. The one you photographed has the point noticeably further toward the ring end, which was a later design.

I have a key for both my van (1969) and pickup (1976) on my key ring with me, and both are of the original design. Unfortunately, I can't share a photo because I don't have a patch cable to load it to my computer!

Hopefully the description makes sense. Also, the image @texases shared shows that original design.

sda

1969 was the year GM introduced the square head ignition key along with the locking steering column.

uplanderguy

Yep, '69 was the first year for those things. I think the industry mandated that after Jan. 1, 1969, but GM started the '69 model year with them--except the Corvair. I'm not sure about this, but I think some Ford and Mopar models didn't have a column-mounted ignition until after Jan. 1.

I remember my Dad going from our '67 Chevelle to our new '73 Nova, and having a bit of trouble automatically putting the key in the side of the steering column.

xwesx

Interesting! I do have the square head key for my C20, but the cylinder is located in the dash. I wonder if some 1969 models have the column-mounted key, or if that is something that came along for the 1970 model. Or, if it was even a thing for the pickups until 1973 when they went to the square body.

I honestly don't ever recall seeing a column-mounted ignition cylinder in the 1967-72 body style.

andre1969

Wait...what did the GM door/ignition key look like prior to 1969, then? My '67 Catalina has a square head for doors/ignition and round for the glovebox and trunk. But, they're aftermarket keys that say "Curtis" as well as "GM" on them.

But still, on the Catalina, as well as my '69 Bonneville, the door key is the same as the ignition key. But at some point, they changed that to where the ignition key was ignition ONLY, and the other key handled the doors, glovebox, and trunk.

As for Mopar, my '69 Dart GT still had the ignition key in the dash, and the steering wheel/shift lever did not lock. For some reason I was thinking the ignition interlock wasn't required until 1970, but GM jumped the gun by bringing it out for '69? Or maybe that was something else I'm thinking of, that GM was an early adopter of, like the beefed up guard beams in the doors, perhaps?

IIRC, 1/1/1969 was when headrests became mandatory. I think 1/1/68 was shoulder straps for the front seatbelts?

Next time I'm at the Mopar show in Carlisle, I'll try to make a mental note to check out the steering columns on the '69 models I see. Of course, I'll probably forget that mental note by then

xwesx

Wow. That's some amazing trivia! I need to try to hunt down when my truck was built. I don't have shoulder belts or headrests.

Maybe the rules were different for pickups, though. my '76 F250, while it does have shoulder belts, still doesn't have headrests.

andre1969

PIckup trucks were exempt from a lot of things that applied to cars. Even my '85 Silverado didn't have headrests. Years ago, when a 2000 Infiniti sacrificed itself on my rear bumper, I'm convinced it totaled the Infiniti. Did a whopping $350 worth of damage to the truck. But man, when the back of my head hit the rear window, I was aching for a few days afterward!

Even as late as 1985, pickups also didn't have to conform to bumper standards. People like to point out how much trucks have blown up in dimensions since then, but in my opinion, the primary factor is the bumpers. In 1985, a rear bumper was still optional on most trucks. Mine had a step bumper that probably added about 8" to its overall length. And the front bumper was just bolted to a solid bracket that bolted to the frame. No shocks or anything like that. Nowadays, they'd cram some styrofoam between the plastic fascia and the steel beam that they pass off as a bumper, and that no doubt adds a few inches up front.

So, while my '85 Silverado was 212" and my '12 Ram is something like 231" and that seems like a big deal, throw on maybe 3" for a more protective front bumper, and 8" for the rear bumper, and suddenly you're at 223" vs 231". I wouldn't be surprised if the remaining 8" didn't go into the cab, as the cowl is a few inches further away, the seatback is a bit thicker (with headrests) and there's more room behind the seat.

uplanderguy

Yes, on trucks being exempt from a lot of stuff a manufacturer’s cars would have had the same year.

I remember pickups not even having Monroney labels until well into the ‘70’s at our hometown Chevy dealer.

This ‘81 C3 pulled next to me at the post office today. Driver actually left it running with windows down while he went into the lobby!

I would’ve guessed ‘82 but it didn’t have the cross fire injection
ID on the front fenders, so I figured ‘80 or ‘81. Driver confirmed ‘81.

I don’t recall GM pickups having locking steering column until ‘73 model year.

Hard for me to think an ‘81 is 42 years old—my first new car was an ‘81.

As old as a ‘58 car was in 2000!

Michaell

uplanderguy said:

Yes, on trucks being exempt from a lot of stuff a manufacturer’s cars would have had the same year.

I remember pickups not even having Monroney labels until well into the ‘70’s at our hometown Chevy dealer.

This ‘81 C3 pulled next to me at the post office today. Driver actually left it running with windows down while he went into the lobby!

I would’ve guessed ‘82 but it didn’t have the cross fire injection

ID on the front fenders, so I figured ‘80 or ‘81. Driver confirmed ‘81.

I don’t recall GM pickups having locking steering column until ‘73 model year.

Isn't that the Indy 500 Pace Car version of the Corvette?

I knew someone who bought one of them, and immediately disconnected the speedo/odo cable, so as to preserve the collector value.

texases

Michaell said:

uplanderguy said:

Yes, on trucks being exempt from a lot of stuff a manufacturer’s cars would have had the same year.

I remember pickups not even having Monroney labels until well into the ‘70’s at our hometown Chevy dealer.

This ‘81 C3 pulled next to me at the post office today. Driver actually left it running with windows down while he went into the lobby!

I would’ve guessed ‘82 but it didn’t have the cross fire injection

ID on the front fenders, so I figured ‘80 or ‘81. Driver confirmed ‘81.

I don’t recall GM pickups having locking steering column until ‘73 model year.

Isn't that the Indy 500 Pace Car version of the Corvette?

I knew someone who bought one of them, and immediately disconnected the speedo/odo cable, so as to preserve the collector value commit fraud.

There, I fixed it for you!

uplanderguy

No, the Indy Pace Car version was a ‘78, same year as the 25th anniversary version.

sda

uplanderguy said:

No, the Indy Pace Car version was a ‘78, same year as the 25th anniversary version.

How's the new ride?

andre1969

Wasn't there some kind of special edition Corvette they made for 1982? At least, I seem to recall my co-worker having one, once. It's weird...I can remember that he paid around $18K for it, put about $500 into it when something in the door went bad, and then getting bored with it a few months later and trading it for a '73 or '74 Benz 450SL that he got from some classic car dealer in Florida.

This was back around 2000 or so. This guy had come into some money. But, as evidenced by the above, he didn't stay in it for very long!

**Edit: "Collector Edition" maybe?
I remember it was black and silver, but my mind is remembering it as being more black and less silver.

I do remember it had the Crossfire, because he wasn't amused when I cracked the old jjoke about how that sounded like an engine malfunction. Something like "Stand back son! That sucker's about to CROSS FIRE!!"

ab348

andre1969 said:

Wait...what did the GM door/ignition key look like prior to 1969, then?

They looked like this. My Cutlass had these, as did my previous '64 Skylark:



The octagonal head was pretty small and wasn't the easiest thing to turn. The original key blanks were made by Briggs and Stratton.

stickguy

I like that Corvette Uplander found. Assuming it has a stick of course!

uplanderguy

andre, yeah I remember those "Collector Edition" '82's. Bad two-toning and lame wheels IMHO. If a manufacturer has to put "Collector Edition" on it, not interested, LOL.

Other than being wowed when I first saw a new blue '68 in our town when I was a kid, the C3 never did much at all for me. I hated the '70-72 eggcrate vents on the front fenders. I sort-of liked the '78 when it came out. I remember riding in a friend's '77 and the view from inside was claustrophobic and the bucket seats were thin and flat. I think it was Car and Driver that called the styling "Flying D**do".

In hindsight, I like the C4 better than I used to. I think at least before '86 (when they slapped that CHMSL on the top of the back window), the styling's stood the test of time well. Again, it's pretty simple styling. Yes, the graph-style electronic instruments are a drag, but I like how you could get cloth seats in them (a carryover from late C3's). That didn't last real long though.

uplanderguy

How's the new ride?

So far, so good. Around 400 miles. Wife came home from work today and said, "I'm driving the Corvette".

My nose is still running like a faucet and I still am slightly out-of-breath from a week of Covid, so I didn't go.

Took her pic as she left home. She was gone two hours!

She'd gone to Aurora to show her teacher friend the car.

Here's a pic I snapped of her pulling out of the garage.

roadburner

uplanderguy said:

andre, yeah I remember those "Collector Edition" '82's. Bad two-toning and lame wheels IMHO. If a manufacturer has to put "Collector Edition" on it, not interested, LOL.

Other than being wowed when I first saw a new blue '68 in our town when I was a kid, the C3 never did much at all for me. I hated the '70-72 eggcrate vents on the front fenders. I sort-of liked the '78 when it came out. I remember riding in a friend's '77 and the view from inside was claustrophobic and the bucket seats were thin and flat. I think it was Car and Driver that called the styling "Flying D**do".

In hindsight, I like the C4 better than I used to. I think at least before '86 (when they slapped that CHMSL on the top of the back window), the styling's stood the test of time well. Again, it's pretty simple styling. Yes, the graph-style electronic instruments are a drag, but I like how you could get cloth seats in them (a carryover from late C3's). That didn't last real long though.

The Cross-Fire Injection setup wasn't all that great either. I remember it also premiered on the 1982 Z28; it wasn't any quicker than my 1979 Arrow GT 2.6.

fintail

On the road today, another Fiero (notchback) and something that seemed odd, a 90s F-series crew cab shortbed - the shortbed looked unusual somehow.

On the key subject, there's family lore of my mom driving a Chrysler (probably my grandpa's) and getting the key stuck when putting it in the ignition the wrong way, as she was used to her Ford. If I remember right someone had to come along and extract it with pliers.

stickguy

I always like the standard cab shorties of that vintage (the curvy ones), especially the step sides. Nicely proportioned and I liked the interior and dash. That same model with the extended cab (always a smooth side I think) just looked ungainly too long.

not sure what year they changed from the earlier squarer style. this is a 2002.

fintail

For the F150, it became rounded for MY 1996 I believe, with the larger trucks using the aero nosed older style for a couple more years (that's what I saw, an older style - most crew cabs I notice are longbeds).

xwesx

fintail said:

For the F150, it became rounded for MY 1996 I believe, with the larger trucks using the aero nosed older style for a couple more years (that's what I saw, an older style - most crew cabs I notice are longbeds).

Just about. 1997 was the first year of the F150 bubble trucks, which continued through 2003. The heavy duty trucks remained with the prior body style through 1998, and then went to their new appearance in 1999 (and have remained somewhat differentiated from the F150 styling every since). I think the 1999 HD style remained largely the same through 2007, though it seemed every year had some sort of updated look to the lights or grille or both through that time, then it was heavily modified for 2008+.

uplanderguy

I always thought that era of F-150 was a good-looking version. I don't see too many around here anymore.

xwesx

At the time, I did too. It really was a radical divergence from what was out there prior (and during). I just don't think it aged very well. I look at them now and they just seem.... soft... I guess is the right word.

That said, I do appreciate seeing well-preserved examples today.

fintail

Ah that's right, I am getting years mixed up with the ovoid Taurus. Ford was very rounded then.

I remember the "bubble" (good term) F-series extra cab type, small rear-hinged rear door, fared disastrously in crash tests. I remember it seemed like a radical design when new, but today I prefer the 80-96 style.

andre1969

One reason I can remember it was 1997 for that ovoid truck, was that at one time, I was actually convinced it WAS 1996. But I knew someone, who had bipolar disorder and a very short fuse, who had owned a 1996. So naturally he saw it as his civic duty to correct me on my grievous error, and make sure I never forgot it!

When that '97 came out, we called it the "girly truck." And just something about its style, and proportioning, made it look like a compact truck to me. Like, if you saw it parked all by itself in the parking lot, it would look small, and you wouldn't realize just how big it was unless there were other vehicles parked around, for context.

I'm wondering if a lot of other buyers questioned the F-150's masculinity as well, because when the F-250 and bigger trucks came out a bit later, they were a lot more "butch" looking, and as I recall, a whole different design. Whereas GM and Dodge's 3/4 and 1-ton trucks used the same bodies as the half-ton, and they just slipped a beefier frame and such underneath, I think the heavier-duty F-series trucks were almost completely different designs.

My attitude on them, like most things, has softened as I've gotten older. For instance, I wouldn't consider driving one as an affront to my masculinity these days. But, to me it still looks like a compact truck!
I wonder if it's that large door window, with the low beltline, and the large-ish headlights that make me think of a compact truck? Those two things might help give it more Ranger-ish proportions.

sda

I think part of the appeal of that series F-150, at least on the upper trim levels, was the quality of the interior. It was far better than the others, dare I say, Lexus like in comparison. IIRC, it did poorly in the offset crash test.

stickguy

The cab proportions is why I like them. And hate new models. I like to be able to see out and have manageable dimensions

kyfdx

I really like it for the looks. But, driving a regular cab pickup is rarely comfortable, for me. Seat adjustments are limited.

andre1969

kyfdx said:

I really like it for the looks. But, driving a regular cab pickup is rarely comfortable, for me. Seat adjustments are limited.

The newer ones might be better. My old '85 Silverado wasn't so great, for me at least, because the seat didn't go back all that far, so the distance from the steering wheel and cowl/windshield was reminiscent of an old 40's car. The seatback was also pretty thin, and no headrests. It only had the fore-aft adjustment. The one saving grace is that the seat was fairly high off of the floor, so that helped offset the lack of fore-aft room.

But, I think it's one of those things where it doesn't seem bad, if that's all you're used to, but once you get accustomed to something better, you realize just how bad you had it. My 2012 Ram is considerably better. The seat goes back further, and there's enough room in the cab for it to even recline a little bit. The steering wheel/cowl distance are more like a car. It doesn't feel like it sits up quite as high off the floor as the Silverado did, but is still much better for long distance driving comfort. My Ram only has fore/aft and backrest recline adjustments though...nothing like raising the seat, adjusting the angle of the base cushion, or fancy stuff like that.

I think my only beef with the Ram is that to me it feels like it has compact car seats, but that might be simply because my butt got accustomed to those couch cushions that were in my 2003 Regal, and the 2000 Park Avenue before that. And, most cars these days feel like that to me, including the 2023 Charger I just got.

ab348

My older brother leased one of those late-'90s F-150s and I borrowed it a couple of times. I recall it drove fine. I do remember two other things about them:

1. I recall some controversy about how they designed the box to fit into the recess below the cab rear window. Apparently that design interfered with some aftermarket add-ons.
2. I also recall some problem with how the exhaust exited ahead of the right rear wheel. My brother had some issue with the tire there and it was blamed on the hot exhaust gases degrading it.

fintail

The odd box/cab relationship on those trucks is seen in the pic Andre posted, that always caught my eye.

I remember a friend's dad bought a higher spec heavier truck with the new styling in 1999, it cost something like 50K then, a big deal (I think it was the V10 rather than a diesel, for extra fuel consumption). It was the subject of annoyed laughs as my friend said the first thing he did when he bought it was smoke in it, then tossed the window sticker.