I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

uplanderguy said:

I wasn't a fan of the Lumina sedan, but I did like that they offered a coupe, something most of the other makers weren't making in a FWD that size.

I never loved it either, especially the exhaust note, and it seemed a little awkward to me. I remember when they were current, a family friend had one, and he made a joke about it something along the lines of when he drove it down the street, all the neighborhood dogs would bark at it. Not sure if that was for looks or sound. My brother had a Lumina Euro 3.1 sedan as a normal used car in the early 00s.

I look at the first gen cars now, and am struck by how glassy they are, and I approve of that. The dash design is also kind of daring to my eyes, for such a mainstream middle of the road car.

Michaell

uplanderguy said:

I wasn't a fan of the Lumina sedan, but I did like that they offered a coupe, something most of the other makers weren't making in a FWD that size.

My cousin’s husband worked at the Tarrytown, NY plant where the GM-10’s were built. IIRC, they had a Regal of that vintage.

uplanderguy

The first-gen Lumina coupe, non-Euro, was hardly-ever seen then yet now. I find it a bit intriguing. Put the factory-width whitewalls on mine, LOL.

I do like the Euro coupes as long as you got the polished aluminum wheels and not the flat, silver-painted hub caps. Yuck. I recall that the decklid spoiler (the 'upside-down frisbee' as a buddy called them) could be deleted for credit on the window sticker. I'd have gone that route.

sda

The 3.1 V6 had a coarse sound of a boat motor, especially during moderate acceleration.

ab348

One last throwback to the subject of the Vega: In the early '70s, Chevy engineers were fooling around with ideas for a hopped up version beyond the Cosworth Vega. One of those involved a Chevy V8 and I was surprised to find this old Motor Trend article about the effort:

https://www.motortrend.com/features/chevy-s-aluminium-v8-vega-july-1972-982-614-64-1/

I can only imagine the stress and strain that must have put on all the other parts of the car from the rear end to the brakes. I would guess even the structure had to be beefed up given the thin metal they originally used to save weight. I understand that when the Monza was developed from the Vega platform it had a more robust floorpan that eventually found its way into later Vegas as well. The original article I had read also mentioned that GM tried its ill-fated Wankel engine in the Vega, along with a few small high-revving V8s from Suzuki. But they never found a viable alternative to the 2300 engine that GM Corporate saddled them with.

uplanderguy

The Monza was originally supposed to be a Wankel...the '75 center hump is very high for supposedly that reason. The '76 and later years, that hump was reduced.

As is often the case, I like the detail styling on the '75 2+2 better than later years with minor revisions.

RE.: Raspy exhaust note on 3.1--the 2.8 did that too. Plus, in my family's experience, those cars went through exhausts, or at least mufflers, in 2-3 years' time.

andre1969

I wonder how the turbocharged version of the 231 would have worked, in an application like that? While the Vega was gone by the time Buick started offering turbo 231s, it could have gone into the Monza, Sunbird, etc, I guess.

Oh, that H.O. version of the 2.8 that went in the Citation X-11? While that was an FWD application, I'd imagine it wouldn't have been too hard to put the 2.8 into a RWD car. After all, they did it with Camaro/Firebirds and S-10 pickups/Blazers for awhile.

But, I guess by the time the 231 turbo came out, and especially the 2.8, GM wasn't much interested in doing much more innovation with the Monza platform. Plus, once the second Arab oil embargo hit, and the associated economic turmoil, everyone was afraid of running out of gasoline again.

texases

I think Chevy did some tests with the 2.8 in the Chevette, but I can't find much record of it.

andre1969

I'd never heard that, about the 2.8 in a Chevette. I asked Microsoft's CoPilot AI about that, and here's what it came up with...

Yes, General Motors did experiment with putting the 2.8 V6 engine into a Chevrolet Chevette! During the Regan era, Chevrolet was engineering new vehicles to meet government-imposed fuel efficiency, safety, and pollution control mandates. Despite the Chevette’s ergonomic missteps and wheezing powertrains, a performance-oriented version was created. The secret to this enhanced Chevette was the transplant of the relatively new 60-degree V6 engine that was available on the S-10 pickup and also offered in the 1982 F-body (Camaro, Trans Am). They tried two different transmissions, including the Warnet Super T10 manual four-speed from the Corvette and a 700R4 Turbohydramatic. Although it never went into production, this modified Chevette featured a cowl induction hood and a set of Gotti 14-inch alloys, making it anything but an ordinary Chevette1. Quite an interesting experiment, don’t you think? 😊

Learn more:
1 hooniverse.com
2 newparts.com
3 en.wikipedia.org
4 hemmings.com

The footnotes didn't copy over too well. And, I wonder how accurate it really is, considering there are misspellings here and there. But, I've noticed those AI generators are getting better as time goes by.

I remember when I first tried ChatGPT, I asked it about the DeSoto Seville, figuring that was something I was somewhat knowledgeable about, to see how it did. It got just about everything wrong. It also mentioned that the DeSoto Seville was produced from 1975 to 1956! I'm pretty sure it was mixing up information with the Cadillac Seville, but listing the production run backwards like that was a bit amusing!

fintail

My brother's Lumina had these wheels, as did most Euros I guess:



i seem to recall there was a very basic flat hubcap available at least at launch.

That exhaust note was always terrible to my ears, and the 2.8 even worse. Back in the day I called the 2.8 the popcorn popper.

uplanderguy

I couldn't even find a photo online of a Lumina coupe, non-Euro. My Dad test-drove one at the dealer in Meadville, 25 or so miles away, while they were up there shopping. I remember him liking the woodgrain on the steering wheel, dash, and doors, LOL. He was all about column shift and bench seat. I remember him telling me about it.

roadburner

Two more things about the Cosworth Vega:
1. Horsepower suffered because the catalytic converter presented a significant restriction to the exhaust- due to the fact that there wasn't enough room to fit a larger less restrictive cat.
2. A couple of friends in BMW CCA also owned Cosworth Vegas and more than a few owners ditched the fuel injection for dual sidedraft Webers.

texases

roadburner said:

2. A couple of friends in BMW CCA also owned Cosworth Vegas and more than a few owners ditched the fuel injection for dual sidedraft Webers.

Didn't a similar thing happen to a number of the early fuel injected Corvettes? FI out, carb(s) on?

andre1969

I was curious, so I looked in my auto encyclopedia. The only year they broke out coupe sales by Lumina vs regular was 1990. That year it was 10,209 regular coupes, 33,703 Euros. In sedans, they sold 164,171 regular models and 86,924 Euros. From 1991-94, they only broke it out by coupe vs sedan. After 1990, the coupes never sold more than 38K units total, so I have a feeling that, other than 1990, they probably never sold more than 10K of the regular coupe in any given year. Especially when you consider that in later years, they threw the Z34 coupe into the mix, as well.

I wanted to like the Lumina, as it was a bit bigger than the Celebrity it replaced. But, some of the styling features just seemed awkward, like the way the taillights wrapped around, and the beltline just seemed TOO low. It also felt tight on legroom to me, and that bugged me that it was larger than the Celebrity, yet more cramped...to me at least. I did like the coupe, though.

**Edit: Those first year sales look pretty good to me, considering that the economy was cooling a bit as I recall, Ford's Taurus was still a strong contender, and the Japanese seemed like they could do no wrong. And GM was definitely on the defensive by then. But, then it hit me...wasn't the 1990 Lumina an early launch? Sort of like the "1964.5" Mustang, or the 1980 X-cars, which came out in April of '79?

uplanderguy

My memory is that the Lumina sedan was an early introduction, but the coupe was delayed. I remember the brochure showing a coupe in a small pic, or in the distance, with a notation that it would come later. Same with the Lumina APV.

I have heard about Webers being added to Cosworths as well.

uplanderguy

Here's the brochure, showing the staggered introduction dates of the three models of Lumina:

fintail

I was going to say Lumina was definitely an early launch, I am pretty sure I remember seeing them in later 1989 even in my smallish town.

uplanderguy

This was a popular color for these, although the turquoise with the red trim, I dunno. This particular car was on Barn Finds less than a year ago.

I had bought a new Beretta GT in late '88 and for my wife, a new Corsica 5-speed in April '90. I always wished I'd have held off on the Beretta and bought one of these instead.

While I don't love the instrument panel, I do like that digital dash was N/A at any cost and the car had real analog gauges.

I like the size of the car. I think the styling has aged well. Andre and I differ on the wraparound taillights; I like them, and the three lenses on each side of course are a Chevy tradition.

"Euro" name is a bit *ick*, but beats "Eurosport". I think 'sport' was so overused in general then; almost as bad as 'Custom'.

EDIT: I finally found a pic online of a '92 non-Euro Lumina coupe. Kind of modern and a throwback at the same time. I'd have wanted mine with those wheelcovers and factory narrow whitewalls! Split bench and column shift, of course!

When they came out, I liked the FWD Cutlass Supreme a lot, but I don't think the styling has aged all that well.

fintail

I think for the stereotypical maybe out of touch GM C-suiter in 1989, "European" meant black trim, buckets, and wheels - maybe nothing else. That's all fun retro stuff now, and it did sell back in the day. Maybe it's because I was young at the time, but I like digital gauges and think they are cool in a period car. Heck, when shopping for my current car, the digital instrument panel (which became standard the following model year) was a must-have.

I am pretty sure the 2nd gen Lumina (which is now effectively a 30 year old car, think about that) could be had with a 3800, too bad it apparently wasn't possible in the first gen.

explorerx4

Saw this while on my walk.

stickguy

out driving today, a decent looking Triumph TR4.

fintail

In a parking lot today, must be friends:

roadburner

Today was my town's spring festival. The parade didn't have any really unusual cars. The Grand Marshall rode in a 6er convertible, followed by another celebrity is a 500 SL. There was an E53 cab as well. As far as vintage cars went, there was a 1955 Thunderbird, a C2, and a 1965 GTO. The Model A club had some nice cars too. A few people I ran into asked me why my Club Sport wasn't in the parade. Maybe next year.

andre1969

It's been a boring couple of weeks, old-car wise, but last night, coming back from picking up a friend at the airport, I spotted this Cutlass Ciera in the evening mist...
I know I've said it before countless times, but I swear, if there's only one really old car that I see on any given day, it's usually a Cutlass Ciera, or Century.

uplanderguy

Found this Motor Week review of the newly-introduced Lumina Euro four-door sedan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgeh2YOdM18

As I've said, I like the coupe, but there's something about the sedan's rear door glass shape and cutout I don't care for.

fintail

I think the late run A-body is the most frequently spotted period American car, at least in my area. Maybe a combination of gentle early ownership, and simple tech.

tjc78

I see quite a few of them too here in NJ. That same era LeSabres and Panthers are also plentiful.

uplanderguy

I used to see a lot of '80's Impalas and Caprice Classics here, for years and years. Not so much now. I think rust got to the frames here eventually.

ab348

The Lumina discussion takes me back. I had a few of them as rentals over the years when I was on the road a lot for work. I didn’t mind the styling of the sedan - it is one of the clean designs that came out of the Chuck Jordan era of GM Design - and they seemed roomy. I thought the coupe was rather bland-looking compared to the other GM brands in that body style. Like the Motorweek test, I also didn’t care for the dash at all. Overall they were OK rentals, but I could never see myself buying one back then. As with all of those GM cars, they were let down by GM’s antediluvian engines, both underpowered and not very refined.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

I used to see a lot of '80's Impalas and Caprice Classics here, for years and years. Not so much now. I think rust got to the frames here eventually.

That makes me wonder what part of the continent is best for preservation of vehicles both in terms of body rust and trim. Up here the magic words you wanted to hear when searching for an old hobby car was a “Carolina car” which implied no rust and decent condition inside. Florida cars weren’t as desirable because they could be from the salty coasts and could be sun-baked. California cars were rare here just because of the distance from the west coast but were perhaps even more desirable than others despite the possibility of them being really sun damaged depending on where they lived out there, just like Arizona cars.

My two project cars over the years could not have been more different. The ‘64 Skylark convertible was sold new in Seattle and then migrated to Victoria, BC for years, where it was restored. It was bought there by a Navy man who got transferred to the east coast and I bought it from him. It was totally rust free underneath and largely original although the paint was redone during the resto and the interior was new. My ‘68 Cutlass was a local car that was 1-owner from new when I bought it in 1993. It had low miles then and only minimal rust since it spent most of its life in an underground apartment building garage but did need some minor body repair and new paint. It had an incredibly perfect original interior.

fintail

I think the best place is NW OR or western WA - away from the coast where the salt air can eventually enable a little rust, and not in eastern WA/OR where winter grit/chemicals and summer heat and sun can harm paint and interiors (or find a garaged car). Roads here generally are not salted, and if salt is used, it is sparingly. In western WA the climate is mild with not a lot of sun exposure.

Thinking of ~30 year old cars still on the road, Toyota products are still a dime a dozen, and Hondas aren't not uncommon - I think timing belt neglect does them in. Panthers seem to be later models, as I think as time goes by many fall into abusive/neglectful hands. Every now and then I will spot a Tempo/Topaz or Corsica/Beretta, too, or even an Acclaim/Spirit. For Euros, a period MB is going to be more common than any others, but that era has the biodegradable wiring harness quirk, so some years are thin on the ground.

andre1969

Around these parts, I don't usually see (or notice at least) much in the way of older Japanese imports. At least, 1990s examples don't seem to pop up as often as 90's domestics. However, that being said, the other day, I spotted two early Scions at once. The first was the little xA. It was that deep burgundy/wine color that seemed really popular at the time. The seconds was a tC coupe. For some reason, I'm drawing a blank on what color it was.

I only got a quick glance at both, but the xA looked like it had been well cared for. The tC looked more worn, and the taillights looked faded.

Almost forgot...this was like a week or more ago, but I spotted an old BMW 6-series coupe, the style they called the E24, I believe? I can't remember the last time I saw one of those. It was being driven, and looked like it was in good shape.

My 1985 Consumer Guide has a test of a 635. Overall it scored very well, although naturally it was dinged for obvious things like fuel economy, interior room, cargo volume, etc. Basically, the things a car like that was never designed to focus on in the first place. They also gave it a "2" (out of 5) for value, but again, it's hard to judge something like this on the same type of scoring they'd use for a Toyota Camry!

roadburner

E24 M6 prices have gone crazy, but 633 and 635 prices are still reasonable. The 1988 and 1989 are my favorites since the M30 inline six picked up significant horsepower and the exterior lost the unsightly 5 mph bumpers. All US cars came with the Highline trim, which included a separate rear A/C system for the rear seat and console. Neglected cars can have rust- particularly in the wheel arches and front fenders. I'd like to have another one if I had more garage space.

andre1969

Is the 1990+ 8-series coupe considered the successor to the 6-series? I always considered it to be so, but I just read that the 8- was a much more expensive, more upscale car. But, I read that on Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, I guess.

I kinda liked the 8-series when it came out, but now when I look at one, if I squint my eyes, at a quick glance I just see a Ford Probe. Although it's cool that it was a true hardtop. I think the 6-series has aged pretty well.

And, looking at the modern 6-series, I have to ask, why the hell does it have a set of rear doors?! But, I have 4-door Charger, so I'll be quiet now.

roadburner

The 8 Series did move upscale. I like them but they aren't on my bucket list. As for the 6 Series, the final generation had 4 models- coupe, convertible, Gran Coupe (4 door hatch) and Gran Turismo (odd-looking 4 door hatch).
The 4 Series also has a Gran Coupe model, which I think makes the 3 Series sedan a bit redundant, but what do I know?

texases

6 series I like, 8 I don’t.

fintail

What was the 1985 price of that 635? Maybe 40K or so? i think it was maybe a little more "affordable" than a MB 500SEC, which I think was around 50K or so then.

Saw an Isuzu Hombre on the road today, has to be becoming a hen's tooth.

andre1969

My Consumer Guide is showing $41,315 for the 635. Looks like it came pretty much fully equipped, though. The only options they list is a 4-speed automatic at $795, and limited slip at $390.

I think it was the most expensive car they tested for that issue. There were two Benzes, but they were a W-123 wagon that was around $35K, and a 190 that was in the low/mid $20k range.

roadburner

The 1987 M6 cost $58,720; my 1988 probably cost a bit more.

fintail

I think exchange rate fluctuations were being felt at the time, and maybe MB/BMW knew they could keep hiking prices as more successful yuppie types would pay it. MSRP on an 87 560SEC was 68K. Compared to a lot of things (especially housing, education, medical, etc), car inflation hasn't been too bad in the past nearly 40 years.

andre1969

As a rough reference point to the era, my grandparents paid around $16,200 for their '85 LeSabre, in late 1984. And in the summer of '85, their new C10 Silverado was around $13,500. That LeSabre was just about fully loaded, and the Silverado was pretty well-equipped for a truck back then. Those two vehicles were the only ones my grandparents ever had, that had power windows/locks.

Adjusted for inflation, that 635 in my Consumer Guide would be around $120K today. The LeSabre around $47K I think, and the Silverado around $38-39K. So yeah, when you factor in all the performance/safety advances, standard equipment these days, and so on, I think cars are actually pretty cheap.

uplanderguy

My '85 Celebrity Eurosport coupe, well-loaded except for tilt wheel, CL interior, or sunroof, was either $12.6K or 12.9K, can't remember for sure now, at bottom of sticker.

I absolutely, positively remember my Dad's '84 Monte Carlo was $11,409 at bottom of sticker. 305 4-bbl, 3-speed automatic, A/C, cruise, tilt wheel, 55/45 front seat, tinted glass, AM-FM radio with rear seat speaker, body side moldings, Rally Wheels, whitewalls, and I think that's it. Built in Arlington, TX.

I think one reason cars are comparatively cheap today is that domestic content is waaayyyyy less than it was in the mid-eighties. More are built outside the U.S., even domestic brands.

fintail

I think our fairly loaded 85 Tempo GLX stickered maybe just under 10K? Or right at it? It was a higher option car - PW, PL, PS, AC, cassette, tilt, cruise, automatic, and some other items probably included with the trim level.

And at the same time, some foreign brands are really pretty domestic today - try to find a new Camcord not built in the USA.

The pricing is really apparent on import highline models. In 1994, a new S500 had an MSRP around 95K I think. Today's equivalent is around 130K. If only one could buy housing at 30% more than 1994 prices.

uplanderguy

The import makers building here have had the benefit of decades of not being UAW. Tacoma production moved from the U.S. to Mexico in 2021. Also, location of assembly of engine and transmissions aren't part of the parts content percentages, which I'm not sure is widely known.

Whatever country builds the drooping mascara trim in the rear for the current Camry, should have to pay a fine!

kyfdx

Our '87 325iS was $27K+ when new. We got it in 2011 with 205K miles, though.. lol

'92 Acura Legend stickered for $32,500, but was heavily discounted

fintail

I think some imports also had the benefit of not having Big 2.5 execs who have made questionable decision after decision. At one time wasn't powertrain counted in content percentages? I remember seeing Monroney stickers showing powertain county of origin.

Whoever is in charge of Toyolex design as a whole should receive some kind of visual pollution penalty

i remember my base model 1989 MB 300SE (lowest model S-class, I6) had a sticker of 53K, no options (but almost nothing was optional, I think heated seats maybe, which it did not have).

uplanderguy

Powertrain parts content is included in the content percentage, but location of assembly isn't...and I get that.

andre1969

I never thought I'd admit to it, but the current Camry really doesn't bother me so much. I know there's a cliche that describes this feeling, but I can't think of it.

There's "familiarity breeds contempt" but obviously that's not it, as that's just the opposite. And then there is "absence makes the heart grow fond" which can explain why I can look at something like a '62 Plymouth and think it's cool.

But, something like the current Camry, I think, is some form of automotive indoctrination, or "Stockholm Syndrome," I guess, where the more you're forced to be around it, the more you come to sympathize with it. Or, it becomes normalized, somehow.

When it comes to mainstream intermediate sedans, there's really not much left to choose from. What are we down to now? Accord, Camry, Altima, Malibu, Sonata, K5, and Legacy? I know the Malibu's days are numbered, and I heard the Altima isn't long for this world, either. I think the Sonata/K5 are on the chopping block as well. And I googled the Legacy, and they're dropping the sedan version after the 2025 model year.

tjc78

I don’t hate the Camry. If I had a long commute, I’d most likely have one. In the right trim and color it isn’t totally offensive.

Like you said … slim pickings for sedans

ab348

The Camry that has most recently been sold for the last 3 or 4 years suffers from some unfortunate design choices like the droopy nose and the strange rear corner black slashes. The new-new one just introduced is actually not bad looking, albeit fairly generic and inoffensive. But it does not look like a deep-sea creature come ashore like the Hyundai Ionic 6 of which I saw 2 yesterday during a longish road trip. I don't think I have ever seen one which wasn't painted deep sea grey.