I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

lemko

We must've seen every existing Kaiser Darrin at Macungie this past summer.

Mr_Shiftright

1954 was an interesting time in that there were a number of attempts at an American "sports car" such as the Corvette, Nash-Healey and soon the '55 T-Bird, of which the Corvette was really the only one that eventually became credible (or survived in two-seater form). Also the best looking IMO, although a supercharged T-Bird in baby blue is pretty nice.

andre1969

was the Hudson Italia produced? Now that was a pretty nasty looking thing at certain angles.

Mr_Shiftright

Well they called it a "sports car" but you can just look at it and laugh at that. I mean, it's just a Hudson Jet underneath. I like the tailpipes though.

Says here they made 26 of them beasties...

ghulet

...or at least has some similarities, in a kind of Italian-design-cues-meets-awkward-American-bloat sort of way.

andre1969

I've never seen them from that angle...yeah, they really do just look like heavily facelifted Hudsons there. Most pics I've seen were from the front, and they looked sportier...but still vulgar!

They were actually kind of forward thinking, the way those doors wrapped into the top of the roof, limo style, like how a lot of modern cars do it.

Mr_Shiftright

Well these are basically hand-built cars by Touring of Italy. They can do things that Detroit couldn't do with stamping and mass-production. Can you imagine the cost of that exhaust system and what it would do to paint (I hope they are dummies, not real pipes). American cars had to be bolted together quickly, but these cars could be "fitted", and no doubt had to be. I doubt if a fender from one would fit on another.

andre1969

those are just taillights sticking out of the back of that fender like splinters. Probably one for a turn signal, one for a regular tailight/brakelight, and the lower one for a backup light. Looks like it just has a single exhaust sticking out under the bumper, just right of center.

DeSoto ran the tailpipes through the bumper a couple of years, and so did Cadillac. I think Pontiac tried it too, and I'm sure a few other makers did, as well. It was killer on the chrome, so I'd imagine it would be even worse on paint! And I'd imagine that, over the years, many of these cars just had more "normal" exhausts put on that just came straight out under the bumper. That's how my '57 is.

fintail

The part I hate most on the Kaiser-Darrin is the 'grille'. What a dopey tacked on thing. What were they thinking?

michaellno

On my way to work this morning, I spotted not one, not two, but three Lincoln Mark XIII's. Now, I know that Lincoln didn't make all that many of these, but to see three in the space of an hour has got to be some kind of record!

fintail

Yesterday I drove a friend's 85 Monte Carlo SS. Fairly immaculate, 78K, black on burgundy. Hilarious interior panel gaps and ghastly plastics, and the expected rattles (shut the door with the window down and it rattles for 2 minutes, etc). It would go about 15mph without hitting the gas. Brakes not quite as confidence inspiring as my 126. The bucket seats are ergonomically strange. But his car has some kind of special exhaust, and it sounded very good.

andys120

Yesterday I happened to see a '67ish 'Cuda and a '69 Mustang notchback both of which happened to be pale yellow.

I also saw a very perfect looking Silver Cloud III with plates: "RR" and a small "for Sale" sign in the rear window. It was that metallic tan that was so common on Rollers of that day.

stickguy

there is a local used car dealer that sells high end used stuff, and an assorment of older cars. Lot's o MB, BMw, etc. Stopped in the other day, and the had a Bentley and a Ferrari (948?).

They are also an Avanti dealer (the new ones). Nasty looking beasts.

I stopped to look at a '69 Camaro. A Z-28, but it turned out to be a clone (has a 350 crate motor), but is an original 4 speed. Very clean. Only $28K (asking).

Also had a 61 or 62 Vette, in a nasty metallic green, and a red '55 T-bird. Plus a mid-60s Vette coupe. SOme kind of Cobra in the showroom. I didn't go in, but I bet it was a repro.

stickguy

Before the current owner bought the lot, a local guy had it. He sold more mainstream stuff, but did carry some BMW, MB, etc, but not the exotic stuff. He had a really nice personal collection though. There was a real Cobra (289) inside, along with a Jag XK120 and a nice A-H (don't know which model).

He also had an original Cad-Allard that he drove occassionally, and a 1920s vintage RR in the back for a while.

Mr_Shiftright

Geez you could buy a REAL Z-28 in decent condition for around $30K-32K. Clone buyers beware, when the muscle car market springs back to "normaL" you guys are going to take the big hit.

stickguy

I thought a real Z-28 with the Dz 302 motor would go for more than that if it was nicely restored.

That might be because my primary frame of reference for pricing is the B-J auction. Tell yo what, if I had a Z-28 to sell, that's where I would want to do it!

Mr_Shiftright

Don't use the B-J auction as a frame of reference, because I have seen the SAME cars that were sold there sell again at 2/3 the price, with the once-exuberant and possibly star-blinded bidder now taking a big hit.

A "decent" and very real Z-28 can be had in the $20K-$30K range, but not a fully restored, nut and bolt show quality totally accurate beauty with full documentation. Of course, a car like that would have cost you $50K to restore if you paid someone to do that level of quality.

But you know, muscle car shopping doesn't always go to the highest bidder. You bring cash, and you know what you are doing, and you can score in the mid-range, and even possibly flip a car for an extra $5K. There are a LOT of muscle cars out there for sale and always sellers than need to sell for various reasons.

ghulet

....I saw an IMMACULATE Continental Mark V. Andre, do you know the differences in trim (er, designer series) on these? It was two-tone white and dark blue (insert) with unusual white full vinyl top, moonroof, turbine wheels. Unbelievable condition, from what I could tell. The car wasn't labeled as to designer series, but I'm thinking this might have been the Givenchy series? I can't even remember all of them; base, Signature series, Cartier, Givenchy......strange.

kyfdx

Bill Blass..

andre1969

with all the Mark V trim levels either, so I'm glad kyfdx beat me to it! A buddy of mine has not one but TWO 1978 Diamond Jubilees. All I know is that the Diamond Jubilee was the most expensive new (around $20,000+), and it seems to be the one that all the Mark V "collectors" lust after these days. Mainly the ice blue one. There was also a gold one, but it's not nearly as classy.

There was a Pucci edition, too. Some of the editions were one-year only things, but some of them might have carried over for the 1977-79 run.

Here's a 1979 Bill Blass: http://www.significantcars.com/1979_lincoln_mark_v_limited_edit.htm

Did it look like this?

stickguy

what a barge. I also aways hated that style of Ford steering wheel for some reason.

andre1969

of all the interiors available in 1978...

http://automotivemileposts.com/mark51978interiortrim.html

And better yet, here's that site's main entry page for the Mark V in general, if you dare to enter...

http://automotivemileposts.com/contentsmark5.html

Mr_Shiftright

I always wanted to drive a bordello on wheels

ghulet

...the good ol' Bill Blass edition. How the mighty have fallen; another designer whose name you'll now find among the racks of glamorous stores like Marshall's and TJ Maxx. Don your nautical loungelizardwear (white polyester pants, white patent leathers, perhaps a blue sportcoat with gold metal buttons) and hop in:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6304&item=4544747620&rd=- - 1

Pretty much identical to the car I saw yesterday, except the one I saw had a vinyl roof (I suspect it had the carriage roof from the factory, with the vinyl as replacement).

Mr_Shiftright

Well....bidders are just busting the doors down on that one aren't they :P

andre1969

but with me it's dependent on the color. I think they look good in the light blues (there were like 3 blues offered, IIRC) or light greens, but most of the other colors really don't do much for me. And I don't love them enough to want to go out and over-pay on one! Heck, at this point it's one of those things that I'll admire from afar, or if I want to live too vicariously, I'll just go for a ride in my buddy's.

One thing I will say for them, though...for the time I think they're a really good looking car. Sleek, massive, yet beautifully proportioned. And they really did the personal luxury look soooo much better than the Eldorado or Toronado of the time. The Riv got downsized for '77, becoming basically a high-spec LeSabre, so I don't put it in the same league. I kinda like the Eldo/Toro for their pimp-factor, and even like the Riv, but I just think the Mark V was sooo much more tasteful. Well, in a 70's sort of way! But, between my '79 NYer and my '76 Grand LeMans, I'm kinda all pimped out for now. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

I don't get the "proportioned" part, try as I may. For a coupe, it looks extremely nose heavy, with tons of dead space up front to deplete the world's steel supply to no good purpose whatsoever. You could put two V-8s in tandem in there.
At least your New Yorker has four doors and three windows per side...the sheer bulk of it makes some sense. But a claustrophic coupe the size of the Nimitz really escapes my sense of design. It's a senseless car....unless of course that was the point!

lemko

...can't be worse than Designer Edition AMCs. There was a Pierre Cardin version of the 1971-74 Javelin and an Oleg Cassini verson of the 1974-78 Matador coupe.

andre1969

I guess the main reason that, IMO, it just doesn't have a line out of place. It may not be perfect, but I don't think I could bring a picture of one into Photoshop and improve upon it any. Shrink the hood, trunk, or anything, and I think it would just make it worse. In fact, if you want to see an example of "worse", just look at the Mark VI! They lost about 6" of wheelbase, maybe a foot of length, but had to gain some height to retain interior room, and it just looks like a mess compared to a Mark V! Also, on the Mark V, you couldn't really shrink it, at least not in wheelbase, without sacrificing interior room. The car sits low, and the only reason you can still get 4 adults in one is because you sit with your legs stretched out. If you shrunk the wheelbase you'd have to raise the seats, which means you'd have to raise the roof, and throw off the proportioning. Basically, make a Mark VI out of it!

My NYer is one car that I think would look good with maybe 6 inches added to it...all of it in the rear door, making the roll-down window larger. As it currently stands, I think the roofline, especially around the rear door, just looks too short. Compared to GM and Ford rivals, the R-body has a longer front door and a fairly short rear door. It doesn't look as bad on something like a St. Regis or a Newport/Gran Fury, but on the NYer, with the thickly-padded opera window built into the rear of the door, it makes the roll-down window pretty small. Of course, adding 6 inches to one of these cars would put it up to about 227", which I think is longer than the '74-78 mastodons that these cars replaced! So it probably wouldn't be too good of an idea!

Mr_Shiftright

I could make it better in photoshop with the delete button :P

Well okay, let's banter on this a bit---the wheels are too far inset in the wells...gives the car ugly overhang off the tires. Were they planning on using duallies? The opera window is...well....need I say more?....The front overhang is wayyyy bad. The front bumper looks like a battering ram. Did they really need yet another one foot extension on this car? The phony vents are tacky. C pillar on back isn't too bad however. The sculpted front hood is okay, necessary so that the front hood doesn't "oil can" up and down when you hit a bump.

The 1970 Conti is better in every way I think, if you're talkin' "lines". Doesn't have the George Foreman grille up front. Did Ford really think people were going to mistake the '79 for a Rolls Royce?

With some cars, age is not kind to them.

kyfdx

I'm really picking nits here, but the Mark IV was vastly superior in looks to the Mark V.. It actually looked like it turned out the way it was supposed to, instead of tacking on crap to an LTD II...

But, I might be showing my age a little there..

Mr_Shiftright

I think I don't have an eye for these cars---they all kinda look the same to me. I was a big fan of the early 60s models and then I lost interest because as you say they looked more and more like gussied-up LTDs.

Also being a city boy, their very size made them preposterous for my environment.

fintail

A few ebay lovelies:

Shifty-mobile...I think all of these things end up on ebay at some time

Shifty-mobile van...a real oddball

Kind of elegant, although I don't know about that paint

Another foot-in-the-grave Brava from the same seller of that last one

Charming little 2CV variant

Ready-made Mercedes junkyard

This has good ownership

Probably not many of these left

Not my real cup of tea, but for the period, probably one of the best color combinations

Somehow I could see Andre in something like this

Mr_Shiftright

I hope they don't think they are bringing that Citroen into the USA....

Yikes, that Sunbeam is a silly looking thing (class, compare and contrast to a 1954 MG or Triumph or Healey or Jaguar).

I knew it, all the Shifty mobiles are in the boonies, as usual.

ghulet

.....I have always really liked '64 Olds 98s for some reason (Starfires, too). I remember as a kid (12-13 maybe) begging my mom to drop me off at the local Olds dealer on the way to my aunt's, they were having an all-Olds show. Spent the entire day there; my favorite car by far was an aqua colored 98 two-door with buckets and console (most I've seen were sold that way, which is kinda surprising given that it was a 'luxury' model, and that they already had the sporty Starfire, the Jetstar I--kind of a budget Starfire--and three different 88s).

It's kind of shocking how different that '76 Electra (last year of body style) is compared to my '71 (first year), considering they're the same car underneath. The interiors are entirely different, which I don't think was the case with any other big GM cars if you compare '71s to '76s (Chevy interiors, for example, are almost identical). The vents, dash, instruments, steering wheel, placement of the radio and glove compartment are completely changed. I'll have to do a bit or research and see if Olds or Pontiac were changed much, I don't know.

That Benz graveyard is kinda scary; fortunately (or unfortunately?), doesn't look like there's an interesting or rare one in the bunch.

Mr_Shiftright

just a pile of old junk because hardly anybody's fixing up those models so wrecking yards don't want to provide space to slow-moving parts cars. They can't store a car for ten years so that 3 people buy parts off it in that amount of time.

You see the same thing happening with 80s American cars. They're being crushed because parts business is too slow vis a vis the valuable space that they sit on.

andre1969

but I think the Electra, LeSabre, and Riviera all got new dash designs for 1974. I know they had the new design for '75-76, but I don't think '75 was the first year of it. I know the Caprice/Impala used the same dash from '71-76, and I'm pretty sure that Pontiac did, as well. The Pontiac dash was actually pretty cool for the time, for a bg car. Had kind of a sporty cockpit style to it, and had a round speedo instead of the stereotypical strip speedometer. You could also get a gauge package, although I doubt it it included a tach!

At some point in time, the Olds Delta 88/Ninety-Eight dash changed, as well. Earlier models had the cockpit style, with a square speedo. By '75-76 the were using a bulkier, squared off dash that used a horizontal strip speedo. The Toronado ultimately adopted this dash design, perhaps around 1974? It used it up through '78, when the last truly mammoth Toronado was produced.

Interestingly, GM also went through the trouble to change the rooflines of these cars during their production run. Considering that they only lasted 6 model years, it's any wonder they bothered, but the styles did change quickly back then, and with the "formal look" coming into vogue, and the threat of government rollover standards that threatened to kill off hardtops and convertibles, I guess it made more sense. Plus, GM had deeper pockets than Ford or Chrysler, so maybe they just took advantage of it to keep their models looking fresher. All the B-body hardtop coupes got a new roofline for '74, and the Impala one was different from the Catalina/Delta/LeSabre. IIRC, 1974 was the year the Caprice hardtop was replaced by a fixed-window model with long, narrow rear windows. In '75 the dreaded opera window became standard on 98/Electra/Caddy coupes, while all 4-doors and hardtop sedans got a newer, more angular roofline.

BTW, Grbeck and I saw a '76 Electra Limited 4-door hardtop at Carlisle yesterday. I think they wanted $4200 for it. It was that pale blue color that looks good on a LeSabre, but it's not metallic. I think an Electra needs something classier. The one Fintail posted looks like it might be metallic.

As for the dashboard change, one possibility might have been that GM was getting ready for the possibility that the gov't was going to force airbags to become standard equipment, so they were designing the dashboards to easily accommodate them. Considering how massive these cars were, and how wide they were inside (cars of the 70's weren't space-efficient, but they were some of the widest cars, both inside and out, ever built), the gloveboxes on many 70's cars were laughably tiny, leaving a vast expanse of waste in the dash. I'm wondering if this was to clear room for an airbag? Grbeck pointed this out when we were looking at a '75 Torino Elite which was a garish radioactive-looking yellow, but almost flawless. Considering the bulk of the dashboard, the glovebox was almost non-existent!

BTW, on GM cars that had the airbags, didn't they sometimes put a glovebox down low, on the tranny hump, to compensate for space taken away by the airbag? On the Electra/LeSabre, for example, I'd imagine the airbag would have gone where the wide high-mounted glovebox is, and then they'd have to move the glovebox somewhere else.

andre1969

here's that '76 Electra we saw yesterday...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/jgandrew/042205_LeMans_Trip031.jpg

I also got to experience "oilcanning" firsthand, when the seller let me start this gem up:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/jgandrew/042205_LeMans_Trip046.jpg

Shifty, after sitting in this thing I can understand why you despise them so much! Now that being said, it was a roomy, comfy car. However, there are plenty of cars just as roomy that aren't nearly this size! And I swear I have NEVER seen a hood shimmy like this thing did! The rear edge of the hood on my '76 LeMans will shimmy at certain speeds, and I've seen plenty of older cars (and even Ford Panthers and older Toyota Tacomas) with what we always called "cowl shake", but I've never seen anything like this! The way the hood started to jiggle as the shock waves rippled across it made me think of a bowl of Jello, or liquefaction during an earthquake, or something!

fintail

I'd take the fintails out of that MB junkyard...other than that, yeah, a lot of plain old junk. A 116 or 123 will never be restored, at least by any sane person.

Why wouldn't that 2CV be able to make it in? It's 27 years old...and I see 2CVs in the US all the time. Wouldn't it be exempt from backwards draconian DOT/EPA mindlessness based on age?

I remember when I was little, a friend's grandparents had a matched pair of the Caddy (I am guessing a plain old Sedan DeVille) of the same style of that Buick.

Mr_Shiftright

The 2CVs you see are actually new 90s cars bolted onto 1960s chassis and registrations. That's how they got them in here. They are imported as 60s cars.

Don't EVER listen to what any seller tells you about DOT/EPA rules. You have to check with the government about what's allowed in the country. The rules are complex and tricky and the penalties severe.

andre1969

I posted all the pics I took yesterday at Carlisle. They're at:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v247/jgandrew/Spring%20Carlisle%202005/

fintail

Cool pics. I wish they had something of that caliber in the NW. Any fintails there?

So would that 2CV really not be able to get in, Shifty? Are they still going psycho over cars that are nearly 30 years old? Seems like such a gross waste of resources, when I can go down to any new car dealer and buy something right off the lot that is a lot more harmful or dangerous.

And on a weird obscure note...I read in a German MB magazine that so many W140 S-class cars are being shipped out of Germany - primarily to Russia - that 140s are becoming more seldom seen than 126s.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not about the effect of one old 2CV on air quality. It's about Citroen not investing the money and resources to comply with US safety and emissions standards--so they don't get to play in America. Seems fair to me. Besides, one old car can pollute as much as 60-75 new ones. Why should people paying for all that emissions and safety equipment let others ride for free? It's a big hassle for me to get my car through smog inspection every two years.

kyfdx

I like the Mark III.. The local pawnshop has one in the parking lot for sale..

Also.. picture #32.. My mother had that same exact car... color and all.. And, my stepfather had a matching one in blue... The '76 Lincoln..

What a flashback... thanks!!

Mr_Shiftright

1962-63 Comet, white, clean as a whistle. What a weird looking car in real life. I had forotten why everyone bought Falcons instead.

fintail

The weird Comets are the early ones, like the 1960 models. Strange alien rear end.

"Seems fair to me. "

I can't see it that way. Why should such nonsense stop someone from bringing in what will be just a hobby car? It's not like hordes of these old things will be coming over and ending up on used car lots. And if someone really wants one, they can do as you mention, put a new body on an old chassis, and dodge the mindless regulations altogether.

"Why should people paying for all that emissions and safety equipment let others ride for free? "

I think the same thing every time I look at DOT/EPA regs that allow trucks and other large commercial vehicles so often used for personal use to escape with much less stringent controls. The real issue is that the freakshow weird car import market doesn't have any clout.

grbeck

...that 1972 Olds Cutlass Supreme convertible was a very clean, original car. The car had 22,000 original miles, and was completely original (at least, that is what the seller claimed, and I couldn't find any evidence of new paint). The car had no rust, major dents or even door dings. The interior was spotless.

The seller wanted $24,900 for it, which I'm guessing was way too high, but it was a tempting car.

Mr_Shiftright

OLDS: Too high a price by 50%. Hope he enjoys it for the next 20 years. An offer of $15,000 would be fair to all parties if the car is "show".

EPA -- the rules are the rules. They don't bend for 'cute'.

The Rules, Which are more or less as follows:

The following passenger cars, light-duty trucks, heavy-duty engines and motorcycles are subject to Federal emission standards:

* Gasoline-fueled cars and light-duty trucks originally manufactured after December 31, 1967.

* Diesel-fueled cars originally manufactured after December 31, 1974.

* Diesel-fueled light-duty trucks originally manufactured after December 31, 1975.

* Heavy-duty engines originally manufactured after December 31, 1969.

* Motorcycles with a displacement of more than 49 cubic centimeters originally manufactured after December 31, 1977.

EPA/DOT says: "Nonconforming vehicles entering the United States must be brought into compliance, exported, or destroyed."

Fair enough for me. If I have to buy a new replacement catalytic for my 1980 car to drive it legally, than Mr. Cute Citroen is going to have to make his 1980 Citroen conform to the same rules as I have to.

If it's an exempt car, or it can be made to conform, well then welcome to America, I have no problem with that.

REF: Here's a great website about all the import rules:

http://www.foreignborn.com/visas_imm/entering_us/7importingyourcar.htm#emission

210delray

...since it's already past 1 am. On Saturday, I saw a beautiful circa 1940 Cadillac Fleetwood sedan in dark blue. Unfortunately it must have broken down, as it was sitting unattended on the side of a main street in our town where there are no parking spaces.

And yesterday (Sunday), I checked out a 1969 Mercury Marquis convertible in a used car lot that was closed for the day. It was light blue with a white vinyl interior and a white top. I'd say it was in #3 condition, no rust or dents. The hidden headlamps were exposed (doors up). Birdseed was spilled on the right rear floor.

Amazing how wide those dashboards were then, and how skinny the rim and spokes of the steering wheel!

andre1969

IMO, for them to be fair, the car should be able to pass the emissions standards for whatever locale it gets registered in. However, that may or may not be a good idea. After all, you can get a 1950 Plymouth to pass 1980 emissions standards. In fact, you can get plenty of older cars to do it. Probably not most high-performance musclecars.

Another point of interest...in Maryland, all cars and light trucks, 1984 and newer, have to be emissions tested on the treadmill test. Therefore, you can directly compare emissions results among 1984 and newer vehicles. 1977-83 vehicles use the tailpipe test, which is different and can't be directly compared. Anyway, I can tell ya from experience that a 1985 Silverado with a 305 and 112,000 miles, and a 1985 LeSabre with a 307 and 150,000+ miles will pass by the same standard applied to my 2000 Intrepid. Not only that, but they pass by a wide margin!

In the past couple years though, they started just doing the OBD-II plug-in on newer cars that have it. I felt kinda cheated the last time I had to take my Intrepid in for the emissions test. I wanted to see what kind of pollution numbers it actually put out this time around!

BTW, how do people get exemptions for some of these modded-up, ridiculously high-hp Fast-and-Furious type Civics, Neons, and so forth? I'm talking the ones that actually have the performance mods to go with the fart-cans, ribs and wings, etc. It's a pretty safe bet that these aftermarket bolt-on performance mods and engine rebuilds are making these cars much dirtier than they were, stock.