I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andys120

It's been a big day for spotting Oldies:

-'64 Chevy wagon (Kingswood?), stock-looking, faded blue paint, Torq-Thrust mags.
-'49-'50? Ford Tudor primer black w yellow custom hood flaming, looked stock otherwise.
both seen in used car sales lot.

-Ford StepSide pick up of indeterminate vintage (couldn't see the front).

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah andys I think you are adrift on this particular one....the car is advertised as a "nut and bolt" restoration, which I presume makes it a #1 car. Perfect 912s are hard to find, as most have been trashed, but even so I can't imagine a 912 bringing over $15,000. Certainlly it can't be worth asking price, as this is more than a totally restored 356C sunroof coupe, which is a far more desirable car.

You have to remember that a 912 is just a 911 body with old-fashioned 356 running gear. You could buy a smashing 911 for this price and run rings around any 912 or 356 ever built. A 912 couldn't beat a Hyundai Excel in a drag race.

I'd say the car is priced at double Fair Market Value.

Maybe some rich collector who needs "one of every model" would buy it, but really, 1968 isn't the best year for a 912 anyway unless maybe you are going to chop it up for a vintage racer (69s have longer wheelbase and attractive rear fender flaring, whereas short wheelbase 68s are better for track racing or autocross).

michaellno

Seems to be an odd place to put a car like this

If it's a 409, maybe .. if it's a 6-cylinder, no way

Have no idea if this is a fair value

One for Andre, though no price seems to be mentioned

Mr_Shiftright

69 Deville coupe at $6,500 is show car money so if it is a show car, then price is correct, but just one nose hair out of place and you can start deducting.

'69 GTO Judge ---oh, lemme slap that guy...first off, being "gold" doesn't make it any rarer than the 6,725 other Judge coupes made that year and oh, dear, where did he get THAT price from?

Hemmings Muscle Machines Price Guide (and they should KNOW) peg it at $45,000 high retail. Let's give him another 10% over book for FAB restoration and he's still dreaming at $65,000. Wait a few weeks until his phone gathers dust, then bring a suitcase with $48,000 worth of crisp Benjamins and start talking.

1963 Impala 4-door ---- if truly "restored" (like new, no cheating anywhere allowed), about $6,000 would be tops tops. So he's $2,500 in the clouds at least, maybe more.

lemmer

I kinda like the Ventura for not a lot of bones.

I couldn't impress my friends and coworkers with $65K GTO. They wouldn't know it from a $6,500 Impala.

Mr_Shiftright

$65,000 for a Pontiac?....no, no, something just isn't right with the world anymore....

andys120

$65,000 for a Pontiac?....no, no, something just isn't right with the world anymore....
Well it might be worth it IF you could prove that it's really a Judge. Muscle cars are going
for Ferrari money if they're authentic and fully optioned so naturally there's fakes and clones everywhere. :P

Mr_Shiftright

Price is still too high. That's sucker money. Why overspend by $20,000 on a rather common car by collector standards....over 6,700 of them made. Compare to some years of Hemi Cudas where they made a handful.

andre1969

a fair price for that '67 Catalina 4 door hardtop? That one really caught my eye. BTW, what exactly did the Ventura package add? I always thought it was kind of a dress up trim package for the Catalina, but maybe it added the 4bbl carb, too? There's a guy here at work with a '69 Catalina 4dr with the Ventura package, and it has an upgraded interior and, surprise of surprises, full instrumentation!

Mr_Shiftright

Ventura package is irrelevant to value, but the price seems fair enough as is.

ghulet

I'm at work, I'll check when I get home, but I think it's basically just interior trim, don't think it added anything mechanically (kinda like the Catalina versus Star Chief of previous years, though I think the Executive basically replaced the Star Chief; also, the SC was on a longer wheelbase but had the smaller Catalina engine, IIRC).

shipo

...on a flat bed truck heading south on I-93 in southern New Hampshire. None other than an original (as in unrestored) 1963 Chevrolet Nova II Station Wagon, with what looked like the original (rather faded) paint and no visible rust!?!

Hmmm, looks like a fun project car. ;-)

It looked just like this: http://www.adclassix.com/ads2/63chevwagon2.htm

Best Regards,
Shipo

andys120

I happened to see a couple of these today that were in pretty good shape, one was about 20 years old (Mk. VII?), a kind of yellowish color with a tan vinyl top, looked original and straight but was clearly a regular driver.

The second was an old Mk III or IV(?) in front of a small body shop with obviously fresh bl paint, a kind of electric blue that looked odd on a Mark but then it was the 60s (or 70s).

jaserb

Blue '66-67 Olds 442, looked like it had been recently painted. Not perfect, but sharp.

Red Chevy Corvair hardtop, in the later smooth style. Maybe a '65 or so? What a beautiful car.

-Jason

andys120

The second series of Corvairs was made from '65 thru '69, it's almost impossible to tell one year from another as the only things they'd change were wheel covers and lettering IIRC.

lemko

Well, you can tell '68s and '69s because they have side marker lights.

fintail

Not rare, but today I saw a very early Dodge Caravan, a pre-composite lights model. It was a two-tone bronze, and looked to be in showroom condition. Very few decent survivors of the early rigs anymore.

fintail

Today's sightings on this drizzly morning were a red Ferrari Mondial (80s) convert, a MB C36, and a shiny black 90s Bentley Continental.

fintail

Weird little thing

Could it be worse? Great license plate

Hemi Facels

Now here's a Daihatsu

You won't run into yourself in traffic

Neat big brutal old beast, but I don't know about those bumpers

Yeah, these are extremely cool, but come on now

Lemko-mobile, maybe not the best engine though

Seems most of these have been butchered by rodders. Maybe this one can survive

Yes, please

This is kinda nice too

You never see these in this condition

Were these the ugliest Toronados?

Lovely Andre-mobile...there was once another identical to this on ebay, this one is different

Another survivor of a once common car now usually only found in beaterdom

The first GrandAm had more going for it than the last

Mr_Shiftright

RE: '57 Cadillac Brougham -- I wonder how people arrive at the conclusion that since their car is very nice, they can ask exactly double the show car price for it and sit there, actually expecting someone to bid on it? eBay must love auctions like this. They get $45 and never have to service the account because it's going to look like an oil painting on the screen for the next 7 days.

How are those Daihatsu three-wheelers in the snow I wonder?

300SL -- approaching high retail value here at $257,000.

jrosasmc

How much would you assess a basic Camaro from the early '70s (i.e. '71, '72), not RS or Z28, just a plain automatic 6-cyl. coupe, in decent drivable condition with low miles? I'm just wondering because my dad had one way back in the day and he's wondering if plain Camaros fetch the big money like the muscle ones do. Even on Ebay I very rarely see a 6-cyl. equipped Camaro being sold and when I do it's seen better days.

fintail

Are there any decent clean original 6cyl Camaros left that haven't been cloned into muscle cars?

Ebay has to make a fortune from dreamers...the 75-78 Eldo and 77-79 Lincoln crowd are especially bad.

Mr_Shiftright

Gee I would think $5,000--$6,000 would be all the money in the world for a '71 Camaro 6 cylinder base coupe; but I think fintail is right---most are already converted to V8s of various stripes and fantasies.

What IS it with the Eldorado people? Sellers have to realize that THEY don't control the market, but that supply and demand controls it---and that everybody who wants a 75 Eldorado already has one. Buyer's market on that car.

gsemike

but they're never in the North East =(

If the cutlass had buckets and console in cloth fabric, I could get onto a plane for it. However, with me not having a garage, I would guess that any of these well preserved 70s cars would stay well preserved for too long.

I don't think that Toronado is that bad looking but the back looks awfully caddy-ish.

andre1969

I love those big '71-78 Toronados. I think part of it may be the almost grille-less front end, which was pretty radical compared to most of the pompous, neoclassic themes going on at the time. And the car isn't as radical/controversial as a '71-73 Riviera, but seems a bit more sporty (if you can apply that term to these cars) than the '74-76 Riv, which was kinda staid. Yet I find it more conservative and less pimpy than the Eldorado.

Seems like Oldsmobiles, and Buicks were built a bit better back then than Cadillacs. For example, I always thought the trim parts around the rear lined up better on the Toronado than they did on the Eldorado, and just something about the rump looks more finished off. I think the Eldo might have used more individual pieces back there, which meant for more gaps, and more opportunity for things to get out-of-line.

The interiors also just seemed better-trimmed and higher quality. I think part of it may have been that most, if not all Eldos were leather, which meant vinyl on the side bolsters and other part of the seats. Well, leather and vinyl can be damnably hard to match up in color and texture, and often end up too clashy. Plus, Cadillac tended to use this soft-touch padded plastic stuff on the armrests and door panels. It looks ritzy for a few years, but then starts to crack and fall apart unless lovingly maintained. In contrast, most Toronados had cloth, and in this case any vinyl on the seats added a nice contrast. Also, IIRC, Toros just used good old fashioned vinyl on the door panels, which was much more durable than that soft-touch stuff in the Caddies.

It seems like one thing that car manufacturers did better in the 70's than they do today is upscale cloth interiors. Some of those top-level cloth/velour interiors made today's car interiors look like lawn furniture. However, I think the reason for this is because nowadays there isn't much of a market for an upscale cloth interior. Any luxury car nowadays, or even uplevel mainstream cars like the Accord, Camry, Impala, etc, are going to have leather standard. As a result, cloth is the base interior these days. Back in the 70's, there was still a large market for cloth in a luxury car.

Interestingly though, back in the 70's cloth was often the cheapest interior, as well. Many cars had a cheap grade of cloth, with vinyl being optional, and then often a nicer grade of vinyl and a nicer grade of cloth. Okay, that concludes my essay on the 70's Toronado! :P

andre1969

be considered a fetish? What about this?

andre1969

I went to a local car show in Rockville, Maryland with my buddy who has the two Mark V's I posted above. Here's a bunch of pictures I took yesterday Hope y'all enjoy!!

imidazol97

Nice set of pictures. Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright

Well to me it looks more like not learning from your mistakes, but that's just me :P

fintail

Those Toros just seem kind of pudgy to me compared to the sleeker 60s ones. The wraparound rear window ones are cool though. The boattail Riviera was more radical, and cooler.

Good car show pics, some unusual vehicles there...prewar BMW, MB W111 coupe, MB W113 that looks like the same color as my fintail, Airflow, Moxie Rolls (I wonder if it is original), lots of oddball cars, not just another lineup of 57 Chevies and Mustangs.

PF_Flyer

Saw A Mazda Rx-7 GSL. Might have been an '83, not sure on that. but the driver was having a ZOOMY good time driving it

explorerx4

andre... greatpictures. i was even jealous because there was no rain in the pictures. the pictures of the imperials reminded me there was one in 'sin city'.
liked that #34. looks like there was a little cross ram action going on under the hood.
finny.. saw an immaculate black c43 amg today. definitly a 'sleeper'.

themoon77

There is a 67 Plymouth Sport Fury for sale nearby that I am interested in. It's not a show car, but it is not bad looking either. I am just wondering--how much might this car be worth? Here is what I know:

Has the 383 Commando, 125,000 miles, two or three small rust spots on the lower rear quarters, says "VIP" on a small badge on each side, and some but very little bondo on rockers. The dealer has written "Rare car--only 7000 made!!" on the windshield. Hardly rare if you ask me. It is a dark reddish-brown with black vinyl top. Anyone know in what ballpark I should expect to pay? As I said, I just want an old Mopar--not an all-out show car.

I will try to post a pic or two if I can get hold of a digital camera.

Thanks
Steve Edge

lemko

...is still sitting outside that garage. It's in excellent shape aside from that peculiar "old car smell" inside. Too bad the guy's asking $8,500 which is fantasyland pricing. I'd hate to see this all-original car end up in the hands of some self-styled rapper who puts ridiculous rims and other pimpish accoutrements on it.

imidazol97

Does that old car smell blow out if windows are left open out in the breeze and sun? Or is it materials that are just aged and giving off the smell?

Mr_Shiftright

There are some considerations here. It would be great if you could get a VIN number.

One question is whether it's a two door hardtop or what they call a sport hardtop. The 3rd and 4th digit in the VIN tells whether is a regular HT "23" or a sport hardtop "29". Fifth digit tells us the engine. A "G" is a 383 and an "H" a 383 hi performance.

So these factors can change the value.

All in all, from what you say, this sounds like a #4 condition car and about $4,500 seems like plenty for it.
If it were a sport hardtop with the hi-po 383 (10:1 compression) and 4 bbl carb, then maybe a touch more. But I think it will code out as a "23" since I don't think you could get a sport harddtop in a VIP. But it looks like the hi-po 383 could be in there if you were lucky.

Personally I'd offer $3,500 and work up....as you hit closer to $5K you are really pushing your luck on every seeing your money back on this car unless you sink some serious bucks into it. In stunning condition you're only looking at $8K-8,500 so there's not a lot of room on this car at all as you can see.

Dealer's numbers are a bit off, there were more like 7,900 of them made. Sorta rare, but who cares in this case.

The whole ticket to this car is what engine it has.

andre1969

the one that had the Barracuda-ish roofline? I had a '67 Newport with that roofline, and I really didn't care for it. I preferred the conventional hardtop roof, with the large, triangular rear windows and tapered B-pillar.

stickguy

Since the Fury is now alomost 40 years old, it's quite possible the engine that came with it isn't in it any longer, so even if it was a HO, who knows now.

andre1969

my Newport had the 383 in it, but it was just the dull 270 hp 2-bbl 383. It was adequate, but nothing more. I think Consumer Reports tested one of these and got 0-60 in around 12.5 seconds.

Mr_Shiftright

It's probably mold and mildew under the carpeting, and mice crap and all that sort of stuff.

You'd have to pull the interior out to get rid of the smell and scrub it and air it--this includes door panels.

lemko

...it's that "aged plasticky smell" that I remember 1960s cars seemed to get as they aged. My 1968 Buick had that smell when I got it. I worked hard at getting rid of it with cleaning and air fresheners and it eventually went away. Cars from the 1950s and older have a different smell as they get older. Cars from the 1970s and beyond don't have these smells. Could it be the different kinds of materials that were used in their manufacture?

andre1969

is just the materials aging. A lot of it might actually be the carpeting. In the 70's, for example, a lot of cars went to a different texture of carpeting that was softer. They also started using more plastics, both soft-touch and hard. I've noticed that a lot of GM's downsized cars from the late 70's have a certain scent to them. It's hard to describe, but it's a different scent from something older. Also, some really old cars actually used a cardboard-type material behind the door panels and kick panels and such, but in later years they used something that was kind of like a thin particle board, and today it's probably just plastic.

When I got my Intrepid, it had a really strong "new car smell". In fact, that night I parked it in the garage, and when my roommate came home really late that night, not knowing I had bought the car, he thought "hey, I recognize that smell!" and his nose led him into the garage!

Mr_Shiftright

Well if it's not mildew or mold, which is pretty easily recognizable, then it might very well go away in time----or your nose will get used to it.

What's that SMELL?

What smell?

themoon77

This is not the car, but the body style is the same. Note the fastback-style roofline. I will work on getting that VIN.

andre1969

that's the roofline I was thinking of that was the "sports" hardtop...same as my '67 Newport. here's an old ad for the '67 Fury that shows both hardtop coupe roofs...

imidazol97

I wondered if it was just from the car's having been closed up for long periods of time with no airflow from heater or windows down to air it out. But there were different smells from the materials long ago. There used to be a tar-based rug under the carpet that was sound deadener and moisture stop, but water from wet feet/snow up above it would collect in the carpet and give a mildew smell.

Plastics have changed so the old plastics did have a different smell as they "gased" through their lifetime.

imidazol97

Why were there two different rooflines again for the two-door hardtop?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah gimme the VIN and if you can also get the body code numbers, which is attached to a plate on the fender shield, under the front hood.

I could decode the whole car for you including day built, tire size, transmission type, trim and paint colors.

The engine number should be on the right side (passenger side) of the block under the distributor and should start with C38

andre1969

I'm not sure why they offered two different hardtop rooflines. Perhaps it was just a quick and cheap way of making it look like they had a wider variety of models? Also, around 1967, GM and Ford rooflines started getting beefier, with thicker roof pillars, so maybe Chrysler did that in reaction?

I might be wrong here, but I think in '67-68, the Chrysler hardtop coupes only had that Barracuda-like roofline, while Dodge and Plymouth offered both rooflines.

stickguy

Geez, what a barge!