I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

for the 390 hp 392 Hemi that was offered in the 1957 300C, which said that they didn't recommend it for street use, and that it was basically a racing-only engine. If you wanted to live with your 300C on a daily basis, they recommended the regular 375 hp version.

One thing I've always wondered...were some of the other high-output Hemis the same way? Like, say, the 355 hp 354 from 1956? That year it was optional in the 300B; I think the standard 354 put out 340 hp? The '57 Adventurer had 345 hp from a 345 Hemi, but it was standard across the board, so I'd hope that it was suitable for daily driving, as there was no weaker engine available!

One of my old managers from back when I worked as a waiter at Dennys had a '57 DeSoto Fireflite convertible when he was a teen, and after that a '57 Chevy convertible. He said the DeSoto would walk the Chevy like the dog it was (the Fireflite had a 295 hp 341-4bbl, but I don't know which 283 the Chevy had), but by that time DeSoto and any other car that was no longer in production (Edsel, Hudson, Nash, Packard, and for all intents and purposes, Studebaker) was considered a loser, so the Chevy had the cool factor going for it.

Also, while the Hemi was a heavy engine, for the time they were actually considered quite economical for their displacement, and considering the size of the cars they were going into. Also, it was mainly the Chrysler Hemi that was really heavy. The DeSoto Hemi wasn't much heavier than the wedge-head that replaced it. And the Dodge Hemi might've actually been a bit lighter.

imidazol97

>mechanics wear a beanie that had a spark plug in the center

What a laught. Great. My laugh for the day. I never knew that.
When was the hemi word first used. I remember it from long ago, 1962?

Those spark plug beanies should be a collector item. I regret I threw away my tiger tail with the rubber band that was put on your tank cap when you filled up with Sunoco fuel (35.9 cents) which "put a tiger in your tank." I threw it out about the same time I tossed my Beatles' Sie Liebt Dich German language 45.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, yeah but you know about those "horsepower" ratings, and besides, the racier versions used 2-4 barrels, so you can throw economy out the window.

I guess what I'm saying is that in the 50s, GMs normal pushrods were just as good or better, but in the 60s, the Hemi really did annihilate most other engines at the drag strip. Different isn't better, but dominant is better, in other words.

fintail

Little old ladies. These undesireables are often cheap at new, and bought by thrifty seniors who will buy a car at age 65 and have that be it. When they depart us at age 90, we are left with immaculate cast-off cars.

Desireable cars end up being ruined because they are desireable. One wants to race around in the old big block muscle car, not the pristine Bobcat. Then the muscle car gets crashed or stolen, owned by a teenager, etc. They end up in the crusher while the mint Aspen sleeps away in its garage.

andre1969

to owning a 1979 Volare wagon back in 1996. I was broke and deep in debt, and my Dart was pushing up into the 330,000 mile mark. My grandmother's cousin had a two-tone black-over-silver Volare with a red interior she owned since new, that she wanted to unload. She would've taken $300 for it. I think it only had around 70,000 mlies on it, and the body actually looked brand-new! Paint was still shiny, no rust, etc. Inside it had kind of a cheap pegboard headliner that was falling down, and the dashboard was cracked. Oh, and for some reason the passenger door was stuck shut.

It was probably for the best that some other family member (a distant cousin down south, IIRC) beat me to it! I'll say this much for it though...it WAS a nice color combo, and if you could fix that dashboard, passenger door, and headliner, it would've made for a nice car...at least until the Lean Burn computer or distributor crapped out again

andys120

Chrysler hemi engines favored for use in Euro-American hybrids such as Allards, Jensens and the like. I think Briggs Cunningham and others used them to good effect in sports car racing.

Mr_Shiftright

Cunningham used the Hemi that's right, and to good effect, but that was mostly because there wasn't anything else in 1951 with that kind of power except maybe the Cadillac V8. Actually Allard did better with the Cadillac V8 at LeMans than Cunningham did with the Hemi. Neither of them won, however. Like most American cars and engines of the time, they really weren't good at endurance racing. Drag strips are one thing, but 24 hours at full bore are another. Still, both Cunningham and Allard did very well considering they were racing against the best in the world. But it would take another 15 years or so for Americans to win at LeMans, and even then with a UK chassis (at first).

Here's a site you might like: Shows the various hybrids that used the Chrysler V8s in different forms. I'm not sure which Chrysler engine is the 6.2 liter and 7.2 liter...probably not Hemis.

http://www.motorbase.com/engine/by-id/1876521372/

andre1969

also used Mopar Hemis. First they used the DeSoto 276.1 V-8, which they somehow got up to 180 hp (in the US it had 160 hp in 1952-53 and 170 hp in 1954). Then they went to a 5.5 Chrysler unit, which I think was the 331. There was also a DeSoto 330.4, but I don't think that's the one they used. I think they switched to the Mopar Wedge after the Hemi supply was depleted.

andre1969

would come out to a 383, while a 7.2 would be a 440.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh okay, so neither are hemi engines. I thought not but wasn't sure. Thanks.

andys120

Bristol and Facel used Chrysler power in the 50's but I wasn't sure if they were hemis.

kyfdx

I'm pretty sure it was Esso that put a tiger in your tank..

But, I'm really old, and that was a really long time ago...

andys120

Well it was confusing, everyone was using a tiger motif in '64. While Esso was putting one in your tank, Pontiac was putting one under the hood and UniRoyal was putting
"Tiger Paws" on your wheels.

I'm pretty sure you're right about Exxon...er, Esso.

gsemike

On an early run this morning I saw a 68 or 69 Torino sedan right next to a 70 Cutlass Sedan. Both were driven by little old ladies that very well could have been the original owners. Both cars looked to have the original paint and hubcaps. The Torino was in very good condition with no noticable dents or rust. The Cutlass looked to have very little, if no, rust but showed a few signs of the parking lot wars.

I wonder when was the last time that either of those cars saw over 30 mph.

falconone

I was wondering if any of the cars captioned in my title are still on the road.

chuck1959

I'm young but remember well. Yes it was Exxon...Esso.

chuck1959

I wonder the same. I had both a 1973 Gremlin (Levis trim) A 1978 (I think) Pacer DL Believe it or not both good cars!

fintail

I think there are a few, there are always some on ebay. Can't remember the last time I saw either in traffic though.

I saw a Ferrari F50 today, undoubtedly owned by some MS exec or something to that effect. Also a pretty 65 T-Bird convert, in white.

falconone

I was a very yong boy in those days and I remember the Pacer being referred to as a fish tank. I'd love to see one in the flesh again (for old times sake ).

andys120

I was wondering if any of the cars captioned in my title are still on the road.

I saw a Pulsar on the highway last week.

fintail

A type-II (non-flish headlights) E-type roadster just drove by my place...sounded good

imidazol97

We didn't have Esso in the Midwest (Ohio Indiana), that I'm aware of. It was Sunoco in this area. There was a station in the college town for Miami U that was convenient when I drove back and forth.

reviewer

....and in a very odd place. In the 'fast lane' of an interstate highway in rush hour traffic. That's probably the last time I'll every see that. :lemon:

jlawrence01

***We didn't have Esso in the Midwest (Ohio Indiana)**

In ohio, it was SOHIO, in Indiana, Boron.

omarman

From Wikipedia:

Exxon formally replaced the Esso, Enco, and Humble brands on January 1, 1973 in the USA. The name Esso, which sounds like S-O, attracted protests from other Standard Oil spinoffs because of its similarity to the name of the parent company, Standard Oil.

Hence, the company was restricted from using Esso in the USA except in those states awarded to it in the 1911 Standard Oil antitrust settlement. In states where the Esso brand was blackballed, the company marketed its gasoline under the Humble or Enco brands.

I recall Humble gas stations in Ohio (with the "tiger in your tank" promo) as well as the SOHIO (Standard Oil) brand.

The cold weather season in Ohio used to officially begin with a blitz of TV ads promising that SOHIO gas with boron would, "prevent fuel line freeze up, or SOHIO pays your tow..."

lemko

Remember when Sam the bartender on Cheers traded his classic Corvette for a Volare? He asked this nebbishy secretary if she would date a guy who drove a Volare and she answed, "Are you kidding? I drive a Volare!"

lemmer

Everytime I hear "Volare" I think about that. The funny part to me is that the gang at the bar is all excited exclaiming "Sam, I heard you sold your Corvette and bought a Ferrari!" and poor Sam having to explain that no, he actually bought a Volare.

I also like his trick question when he selling the Vette. When you are driving in the middle of the day and it is very sunny, where do you park the car - in the sun? under a tree? etc. The prospective buyer gets thrown out of the bar by an angry Sam because the obvious answer is that you don't drive a mint 1960s Vette at high noon on a sunny day.

Did they ever show that car in an episode?

stickguy

I don't remember the episode with the Volare (actually, I remember the quiz, just not the volare part). They did show the car. I believe it was a big block (at least it had the high rise hood) with side pipes. Might have been a '65.

gsemike

We used to have a 1980 Dodge Aspen in the family for a few years and it was not the worst car we had by a long shot. A neighbor of ours was the original owner and my Mom picked it up in like 1988. It was a white four door with a slant six. One thing that was unusual was that it had a taxi package which gave it beefier leaf springs and I don't know what else.

The car became my college car in 1990. By then it had a pretty noticable leak from the rear seal. Besides adding a quart of oil once a month, it made it through a fairly rough upstate NY winter and many 250 mile round trips without a problem. At this point, it had about 100k on it and as far as I can recall was on all the original major components. I did put a $99 exhaust system on it.

After that 1 semester, I came into some money and traded up to a 1981 Buick Regal Limited and sold the Aspen to a local woman for $350. I saw it a few times over the years after that, maybe last time in 1994.

I know the cars have horrible reps and this one was no where near exciting, but it wasn't a horrible car.

grbeck

Mr. Shiftright: Whenever you see ridiculous prices on cars, that's because they are not really for sale. The owner is just playing around.

That would explain the 1970 Olds Cutlass convertible (not a 442, just a regular Cutlass) that Andre and I saw with the price of...$49,995! (And it wasn't even mint.)

At that price, however, I think we've gone beyond "playing around" and crossed over into "dangerously delusional."

mazda6iguy

I had a 1978 Aspen for a few years. Got it from my Grandpa after he died and it was a yellow with brown vinyl roof four door. I also remember that my high school had a Dodge Aspen for a driver training car.

Mr_Shiftright

What I meant was is that it's a power trip or ego trip from the "seller". He's saying that his rig is sooooooo valuable that it's worth the price he's asking. He gets to engage viewers without any risk of losing the object of his power.

It's a game and a waste of time.

gsemike

That's pretty heavy but you're basically right. The seller wants to talk as much as he possibly can about his pride and joy so the sign is an invitation to inquiries and you never know if someone will be the bull____ and pony up an obscene price.

Mr_Shiftright

It happens. I have had people come to me and want an appraisal for what they paid for their new toy and my first words are "okay now....don't kill the messenger, BUT....".

You see this less and less though. Most people are pretty savvy these days about car values, at least in ballpark numbers. 20 years ago people were a lot more naive.

gsemike

A friend has offered me a 1970 Chevelle SS replica for $10 k. I know for certain that this is the same price he paid for it about 5 years ago. It has been garaged and not used too much during that time.

The body is beautiful with no plastic that I could find. It's red with black stripes, metal SS hood w/o flapper door, looks like to correct SS emblems and SS bumper pad. The interior is very clean with SS dash and door emblems, correct buckets and center console.

This was very well faked except that it's got cheapo fake centerlines and a mild 350 engine in it. Somebody obviously put a great deal of care into the body and the engine was an afterthought. It does however have working air and front disc brakes.

As a ballpark sght unseen, do you think that this car would appraise at $10k. Could it actually be worht more or less?

kyfdx

Speaking of 20 years ago...

In 1985, I saw this little BMW coupe in a mall parking lot with a For Sale sign on it.. I knew it was similar to a 2002, but I'd never seen anything like it...

Turns out it was a '67 2000CS.. It was owned by a mechanic at the local BMW dealer...He had done some basic restoration... fairly recent, crappy paint job.. engine was out of a '69 with giant Webers... He was asking $6800....

I had no clue... but, I wanted that car.. I started him out at $5500, and took it home for $6K... It was probably a $3500-$4000 car at best...

But, I kept it for almost five years.... and sold it for $2800...

I got taken (sort of), but I got my money's worth... Making mistakes on $3000 cars is a lot cheaper than making a mistake on a $30K car...

And... 20 years later... I'm a lot smarter about things like that...

au94

Not trying to bash anyone here, but why is a fake "SS", "Super Bee", "GNX", "GT350" et al worth any premium over a standard well restored Chevelle, Charger etc? Seems to me that this cheapens the real cars and dilutes the market. I don't think there is the same cache in owning a clone vs the real thing.

jaserb

I dunno, I kind of like the idea of taking a low spec car and faking a more desirable trim line. That Chevelle may not be the real thing but I bet it looks cool, gets plenty of attention at the local cruise night, and cost a lot less than the real thing. As long as nobody's trying to pass it off (meaning, sell it) as the real thing, what's the harm?

Makes more sense to me than paying 2 -3X the price for a car just because it came with a set of decals from the factory.

-Jason

au94

I see your point and you're absolutely right abot the cost. Maybe I'm being too much of a purist on some of these. Each to his own I guess. there's probably a few folks out there that would restore a Pacer to pristime condition!!

andys120

Makes more sense to me than paying 2 -3X the price for a car just because it came with a set of decals from the factory.

I'm sure you're aware that it took more than decals and stripes to make an SS out of a 1970 Chevelle but ironically back in '61-'62 when they stated doing SS Impalas, it was more or less just badges, bucket seats and a center console. You could buy a six cylinder Impala SS!

I'd like to do some creative cloning like Shelbyizing a '64-'66 Falcon Ranchero. Theoretically you could convert one to GT-350 running gear, add stripes, CS mags
and viola, a Shelby Ranchero! :P

Mr_Shiftright

Well you've hit on the potential problem. Many people don't fess up that it's a fake, and even if the fak-er knows it and sells it as a fake to buyer #2, buyer #2 might forget to tell buyer #3.

One reason you don't want to pay too much for a clone is that when the muscle car market collapses, it's the clones that will be hit the hardest.

lemko

Uh, if the faker doesn't tell a buyer the car's a fake, isn't that FRAUD?

Mr_Shiftright

Sad to say, fraud is rampant in the collector car marketplace right now. Fraud is incredibly difficult to prove also. "Misrepresentation" is easier, because it allows the perpetrator to claim ignorance of the facts (but he is still held responsible, but for a lesser offense).

jaserb

Sure, there's more to it than decals. But I think of someone like my baby boomer dad, who would love to have a replacement for the '67 Camaro RS 327 4 spd ragtop he sold ca. 1973. I don't think a factory original RS like his old car would be cheap, although it wouldn't be as bad as like a '69 SS/RS or something. But if he could find a 6 cyl, add the hideway headlights and decals, paint it blue with the white bumblebee stripe, then drop in a crate 350? It wouldn't be original, but that seems it would be a better deal for him.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

the hideaways would be very expensive however, to add.

67 RS Convertible ---shoot, if it wasn't an SS, you can still buy these around $20,000. You really couldn't build a nice clone for much less than that if you did it up right. And even a real SS convertible from 1967, if you shop carefully, could be had around $26,000--it would be a clean driver, not a show car, but very decent and correct 327 car with 275HP engine.

lemmer

What I meant was is that it's a power trip or ego trip from the "seller". He's saying that his rig is sooooooo valuable that it's worth the price he's asking. He gets to engage viewers without any risk of losing the object of his power.

It's a game and a waste of time.

Another example - Porsche 912

gsemike

That Porsche looks pretty sweet. If it were showroom, how much would it be worth?

lemmer

I will guess $12K and that might be generous.

I am sure Shifty will come along and give us the real answer.

andys120

'60s sports cars are shooting up in value, particularly those with iconic names like Alfa,
Jaguar and Porsche. That '68 912 appears to be in good #3 condition, if so it might well bring close to the asking price.

Shifty, am I off base here?

kyfdx

Not the expert... (not the host here, either)...

4-cylinder Porsche..

I'm guessing it got pegged correctly at $12K...

regards,
kyfdx
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