I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

http://www.ephemeranow.com/wagons/wagons018.htm

...in all its wallowing glory!

ateixeira

Woody, no less! )

-juice

fintail

Some of those old wagons are pretty cool. I have noticed a growing enthusiast base for them over the past few years

andys120

Andre remembers that a learned to drive on the sedan counterpart of that barge. Thanks, don't you love how they have it parked right next to the pool, well house lots were smaller in the '50s. :^)

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, old Nimitz-Class station wagons are definitely starting to show a tendency to pretty high prices at collector car auctions. Think of them as relatively cheap, unique "crossover vehicles". Only downside is of course the fuel mileage, which is generally horrifying. Now's the time to snag one if you like 'em.

a_l_hubcaps

Shifty-

Maybe the fuel economy for the really old ones is terrible, but my Parisienne is rated 15/22...that's better than a brand new Ford Explorer, which only seats 5, to my 8.

All of the car manufacturers that are trying to find the perfect configuration for a personal utility vehicle seem to have forgotten that they already found it many decades ago, in the full size wagon.

-Andrew L

andys120

you're exactly right about the utility of the full-sized wagon but keep in mind that the 50s versions were lucky to get under 10 mpg if V8-powered.

andre1969

my '57 DeSoto, with its 341-2bbl Hemi, would get around 13-14 mpg driving around town. Its highway mileage isn't so hot though, probably because of its fairly short gearing. I think it's 3.31:1 or something like that? I've gotten about 16 on the highway. Granted, it's a 2-door hardtop and not a wagon. You couldn't get a wagon in the Firedome series after 1956, but in '57 you could get one in the top-line Fireflite series. It weighed about 350-400 lb more than my hardtop, with the same engine, but a 4-bbl carb. I couldn't imagine that it would get mileage that's too much worse.

My '67 Catalina convertible gets around 10/17, with its 400-4bbl. Considering how bulky a convertible is, I'd imagine it'd be pretty close in weight to a wagon, so I'd think a wagon version would get about the same.

Just to show how far wagons could have come though, just look at the '94-96 Caprice/Roadmaster wagons. They had 350 V-8's with 260 hp, were EPA-rated around 17/26, could tow about 5000 lb (possibly more...I know the Fleetwood could be equipped for 7,000 lb), and could burn off just about any current SUV in acceleration, except maybe something exotic like a BMW X-5, maybe. The old, boxy, '80's versions could actually get up to around 120 mph, despite using relatively tame 305 and 307 4-bbls. I'd imagine the '94-96 had to be electronically rev-limited to keep it from going airborne!

Mr_Shiftright

You can thank computers for saving big cars from extinction.

The old wagons were heavier than the two doors and aerodynamically hopeless and, yes, often geared a bit lower, so added all up it seems that you'd be lucky to get 10 mpg city driving in a 50s/60s big V-8 wagon. I'm sure a 3 speed with overdrive or an 70/80s wagon would be better. But the big bucks I've seen are for the older models, not for late 70s or 80s wagons.

Remember the Studebaker wagons with the rear sunroof? That was trippy!

Ever see 50s/60s Chevy delivery wagons? (no side windows).

fintail

I've heard a nice Edsel wagon will bring top dollar today. Growing up, a guy down the street had a clean Bermuda that ended up bringing about 2 grand, this was late 80s. I also remember a '60 Ford Country Sedan with 33K on the clock bring $400 in an auction around 1991. Hindsight. I think one reason for the price is rarity along with the funky coolness. When was the last time you saw one of these?

Back in the day, my grandpa had one of those Chevies, a 58 I think. It was black...sinister looking in old photos.

You're into MB right, Shiftright? The specialist my cars have had major work done by has a decent collection of more utilitarian MB...and one of his cars is a Universal, which is of course a fintail wagon. It's like the holy grail of fintails, and extremely cool. I know he's turned down countless offers for it.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, not to be rude, but he should take one of those countless offers if it's anywhere over $3,500. Or he will own it forever.

These are not true Benzes as you probably know fintail, being an afficienado of these cars---they are custom bodies built in Belgium. So being a non-factory [non-permissible content removed] + a fintail, I wouldn't be too quick to turn down a pile of Benjamins for this car if I were the owner and really wanted to sell it. Supply and demand suggests a market equilibrium is already in place with a car like this.

There are some funny/weird cars that can bring good money, though.

Anyone remember the Fiat Jolly? They can pull $10K-12K at the right auction, hard as that is to believe.

60s wagons in nice shape can also pull 10K-15K right now.

Woodies? Would you believe $60K and up?

fintail

I'd pay him $3500 for it right now if he'd part with it for that. It's an amazingly rare car, and it's a good solid 100K mile original to boot. It is a lowly W110 230, but that can be tolerated. Among fintail/Universal enthusiasts, it would likely bring 10 grand or possibly more...the only catch is that it would be sent back to the continent to bring such a sum. There isn't a market equilibrium for such a car...sound examples simply don't make it to market. There's no past experience to draw from, and I know of a group of Benelux and German collectors just waiting to buy. Not to be rude...but the car would bring 3 times your quote outside of NA. Highline fintails themselves are worth substantially more there than here, as well. Admittedly here, even on the west coast, people would shy away...there's a strange fear of old MB, unless they are a W111 or earlier coupe or any convertible. But with fairly little effort the car could be crated to a new owner for a tidy sum.

I can't see anyone being crazy enough to want that Fiat for so much. A surrey top can only be so much fun. The only old Fiats that interest me are the large old sedans and coupes. But I've never even seen a 2300 or a 130 in the flesh....but I am sure the rusting is audible.

I can somehow imagine it for the American wagons. These cars were neglected and unappreciated for years. They have a tremendous "smile factor" and have to be a hit at shows.

I can see how some woodies bring top cash...Chryslers and Packards etc. They were beautiful vehicles.

bksward

All of the car manufacturers that are trying to find the perfect configuration for a personal utility vehicle seem to have forgotten that they already found it many decades ago, in the full size wagon.


The problem is CAFE. A station wagon is a car and gets averaged into the 27.5mpg CAFE minimum. An SUV is a truck and only needs to average 22.5...

That's why the PT cruiser is a Truck according to DC. It helps let them sell more Durangos and Grand Cherokees without penalty.

andys120

Those old wagons were usually rode hard and put away wet. They hauled everything from kids to fishing tackle and building supplies. They were used by surbanites much as you'd use a pickup or minivasn todat.

Mr_Shiftright

Well we don't live in Germany so the market is the USA market. That's how I do my calculations on value, mostly on the idea of "market forces",-- that is Supply & Demand. It doesn't matter how good or rare or charming a car is, that alone isn't what determines price. It's about "how many are there vs. how many people want them". And the bigger the database, the better, since there is always some "one out of a hundred" selling too cheap or buying too high and you must discount that data.

The reason appraisers don't use foreign markets (except for rare high dollar cars) is that the cost of marketing, shipping, VAT, etc often deducts things down to the USA value anyway. Ask anyone who has ever tried recently in making a profit sending British sports cars back to the UK.

So you put a $10K pricetag on an old Benz sedan and most buyers scatter like ducks. Lots of people say they'd buy one but when it comes time to write the check...ah, well...this or that comes up.

That's why you have to determine pricing by actual cash sales---not always easy info to find.

"Asking prices are an exercise in your First Amendment Rights".

stickguy

made another trip to upstate NY, and saw a few more oddities.

For Andre, a flatbed with 2 poopoo brown 1970ish Impala/caprice 4 doors.

2 different gen 1 Chargers (66?) on the thruway. Also a mid 60s Buick convert, and a ratty 70ish Impala convert. At least both had the top down.

an assortment of muscle cars that I can't remember the details of.

In NJ (Lambertville), a nice red XKE convertible, at the same intersection as an MG TC (or maybe a TD, I can't remember the size of the wheels).

And my favorite, on rt. 287 (near the top), a T-bucket hot rod. Looked like a drag racer, long front frame, big motor, bicycle looking front tires, about 1/2" off the ground, tiny little cockpit with 2 guys in it. Not something I would want on the interstate, but to each his own.

fintail

For a car that obscure though, especially in an age when one can instantly communicate with people overseas, the market is whetever demand can be found. Also, all the demand for such a vehicle is almost soley overseas. The market is set elsewhere. Just have the buyer pay for and arrange shipping, and have that be the end of it. I wouldn't trust a lot of car appraisers on any old MB, no matter how they figure value. They likely lack the specialized knowledge to come to a realistic figure. Checking a database of auction sales won't do it.

I never said anything about a $10K tag on a sedan, it's a $10K tag on a Universal. If you happen upon any sound examples in the $3500 range, please send me an email with specifics.

For a holiday, today was a disappointing day for seeing weird old cars. I didn't see a single thing that sticks in my mind. I saw a nice late series (65?) Studebaker sedan yesterday though.

stickguy

A Banana 2-door Matador (about a '73). Blue, looked in nice shape, on the Thruway.

Mr_Shiftright

Well fintail, (and others interested in how values are established for weird cars) the appraiser feels just the opposite--hahaha. He doesn't rely on an owner's opinion of value because the owner is not a "disinterested" party--he (the owner) has a financial stake in that he wants his type of car to be worth as much as possible. In fact, a bank or court or insurance company won't accept an owner's evaulation as *sole* evidence because the owner is not, in a legal sense, a "disinterested party". Nor is a dealer.

Fair Market Value means the likely price to be realized where the car sits, and in the condition it is in--FMV is not allowed to be about the widow who sells too cheap or the trust funder who pays 3 times the value for a car or what they are paying in New Zealand if you could get it there.

So professional appraisers see cars differently from owners. Auction prices are to us indeed good evidence of value because you have real people writing real checks for real cars, not presumptions "if" something were sold or rumors about what is being paid.

Hope that clarifies where appraisers come from and why they don't see the same world you might.
They operate under different rules and really they don't need to know everything about a car to evaluate it. Many aspects of a car are irrelevant to its value.

Here's I think a very sober and reasonable discussion of the value of these cars:

http://www.members.cox.net/mbimauniversal/questions.htm

scanty

On a "mental health holiday," drove by THE high end service and repair shop in St. Louis, and noticed a bright yellow winged exotic in the driveway. At first I thought it was a Diablo, but as I got closer, I noticed the windows and the rear end and knew it was a Vector. Had to look up the model number, it was a M12. How many of those can there be? And in St. Louis of all places!

I've also seen a few of the new Maserati Spyders around town, now that the Bentley-Maserati dealer has opened.

Mr_Shiftright

I think they made 22 cars total. It was a big mess from Day One but the cars were interesting to say the least.

The story of the car's trials and tribulations is worth a read if anyone has a good link for it.

fintail

I guess I can't trust the knowledge of an appraiser in such an unusal situation. Anyone can go online and check auction results. If they don't have specialized knowledge of whatever marque is in question, it's really little different than having a stranger google information about a car. Maybe I am more keyed into replacement value, or the extreme difficulty of determining it. Even for a (relatively) common highline fintail, you'll be hard pressed to find a value you can defend, as they vary widely. This isn't a 57 Chevy with a common option grouping that can be found in any little town. The real market for these cars is on the continent, not here. That should make information from there part of that value. And again...if you come across any even halfway sound Universals in your area for $3500, please let me know...I'll buy all you can find for me. I'd also be interested in any sound W112 300SE longs you can find for a song.

A Vector...damn...weirdness

Theres a little blurb here

http://autozine.kyul.net/strange_car/strange_50.htm

Mr_Shiftright

Thanks for the link!

I remember the story about the CEO of Vector locking himself in the factory and barricading his office with sandbags when the board of directors wanted to oust him.

Regarding car values, it's kinda my business to know this, but hey, you show me 5-10 cancelled checks for $10,000 or similar number of auction SOLD prices (not bids) and I'll likely change my mind. Fair enough.

Interestingly, vast and detailed knowledge of a car is usually an impediment to determining accurate value.

fintail

Maybe the Vector guy wanted to be a new version DeLorean part II. He had the right car. I remember the Vector being big talk among middle school car enthusiasts c. 1989. It's less than a distant memory now.

You made a $3500 statement, show me anything of a decent Universal bringing such money. A very nice original plain 230 fintail, maybe...but those are not quite so rare or sought. Fair is fair. In fact, I will take a single example of a Universal selling through any venue.

Finding auction prices is the equivalent of doing an online search. No skill there. Only the ignorant would hire an appraiser to do such remedial work. It looks like "accurate" when it comes to value is pretty subjective. Where's the skill that brings the money?

ateixeira

A car is only as good as the company selling it (and supporting it).

With no factory backing, service, parts, warranty coverage, does it really qualify as a super car?

IMO, no. Vector was more like a train wreck.

-juice

Mr_Shiftright

Vextor --Ultimately any car producer has to "produce" what they claim to produce, and if the car falls short in reality, it is going to be subject to a lot of criticism from the disappointed.

fintail--ah, lad, the burden of proof is on the claimant to extra-ordinary values, not the skeptic, I think. Here's my professional opinion on the matter, for the record: I'd peg the current market value of a fintail wagon in California on Sept. 3rd at 9 AM at about $3,500 for a decent runner with needs, $5,500 for an extremely nice example, and virtually unsaleable at $10,000 unless perhaps "celebrity ownership" were involved, or perhaps if they found one in a time capsule with 0 miles on it. But normal FMV is right about there, based on comparable cars (60s Euro wagons).

PS: E-mail me if you find good data! This might be starting to bore people, I think, and we should stick to topic.

michaellno

....in downtown Denver, an absolutely pristine Triumph TR-6 came out of an underground parking garage. Black with red stripes, dual exhaust. Older guy piloting it.

Stunning!

michaellno

my uncle had a Datsun 2000 roadster for a while. Man, I wanted that car bad! It needed some TLC, but I think it ran OK.

<sigh>

jlawrence01

One of the young guys in the office asked me for a ride to pick up his "new" car ...

1958 Jaguar 150S Roadster

Mr_Shiftright

I like the 150s. Most Jag freaks prefer the 140 because of the wood dash and somewhat more classic lines, but the 150 is way more civilized---roll up windows!!

fintail

"PS: E-mail me if you find good data!"

Likewise, as you cannot produce any. You initially claimed $3500, you know. Any nice $3500 Universals in your area, send them my way...I'll buy 10 right now. Any documentation about a roadworthy example going for that amount, please.

And back to topic, as that is a supposed desire on some threads when things go awry...I can see a tatty AWD Pontiac 6000 from my window right now. Might be the sole survivor.

jlawrence01

Personally, I preferred the 1980's era Alfa Romeo that the guy had in his car shed. When I lived in Detroit in 1983-85, I had a boss in mid-life crisis mode that took me along on test drives on a weekly basis at the Dearborn Alfa/Maserati dealership.

andre1969

Well, it looks like I'm turning out to be a bad influence on my friends. One of my buddies lately has been confessing a fetish for a late 70's Lincoln, like a '77-79 Continental or Mark V.

I think the one he wants the most is a Continental 4-door sedan...he's found a few that are listed as "Collector's Editions" (I think that was a limited trim package on the final '79's), and somehow, he's been finding these cars where people are asking like $10-12K for them!

Any idea on what a "fair" price would be to pay for a '77-79 Continental sedan? I keep trying to stress to him that, no matter how nice they are, they're still just big, gas guzzling 4-door cars that except for a special few (like maybe me, Rea98d, and my buddy), nobody really appreciates. And as a result, they just don't go for high prices. I told him that, unless the thing looked like it just rolled off the showroom floor, I wouldn't go any higher than $5-6K, and even that would be for a damned nice one. I'd just hate to see my friend blow some serious money on something that's not worth it.

fintail

I would think your latter figure is much more realistic, even for an immaculate car.

Mr_Shiftright

andre--I'd say $5,000 is all the money in the world for that car, even in show condition with low miles.

fintail--sorry, no proof, no change my mind! 10K values make no sense given current sedan and coupe values for pontons and fintails. $5k-6K sounds right for nice #3 universals.

jlawrence--I just don't like how lazy the 80s Alfa engines are compared to the earlier 1750s. They simply won't rev. Remember how nice the "boat tail" Alfa (duetto) sounded in the movie "The Graduate". An 80s Alfa sounds like a strangled can of gnats in comparison!

andys120

a big fat load like "Cannon" (William Conrad) to drive on of those late 70's Marks. Huge two doors like that never made sense to me.

Trivia fact: William Conrad was the voice of Matt Dillon on the long-running radio series Gunsmoke that preceeded the Jim Arness TV version. (I was a weekly listener.)

andre1969

but for some reason is still attracted to those pimp-mobiles. Believe it or not, his daily driver is a fairly new Passat 5-speed! Talk about a contrast!

He measured his garage though, and it's only 18 feet long, which comes to 216". The distance between his garage door and the sidewalk is just shy of 20 feet. A Mark V is around 233", and those big Continental sedans and coupes (they weren't calling them "Town Cars" just yet) were around 230" (or vice versa, I might be going lysdexic ;-) So, his dreambarge is going to have to sit outside, and possibly on the street...another reason I tried to tell him not to stress too much about finding one that's ultra-low mileage, museum quality. Because once it sits outside for a bit, it won't say showroom fresh for long!

I gotta confess, I've always had a fascination with those big Mark V's. I think one reason why I like a big coupe is that visibility to the sides is better for me. I sit with the seat all the way back in just about any car, and in most 4-door cars, that puts me about even with the B-pillar. Only pillared 4-door car I can think of where I don't have this problem is Mopar's '79-81 R-bodies.

Mr_Shiftright

Someone e-mailed me last week about how appraisers figure out values for very obscure cars, so I thought I'd say a word about it:

Unlike "normal" cars, where you have lots of points of sale, good price guide reports, and plenty of comparables, with obscure cars you have to approach it differently:

1. Look for more popular versions of the obscure car. Did they make it in a sedan or coupe or convertible?

2. Look for similar types of cars from other manufacturers at that time.

3. Look at pricing for the "next generation" of the obscure car, if there is one.

What we are trying to do is establish the "historical buying patterns" that seem consistently employed by collector car buyers:

These are:

1. Convertibles are worth more than coupes, and coupes and worth more than sedans. Wagons sell at sedan prices or higher but not as high as coupes.

2. The attractive version of something will always sell for more than the ugly version, even if the ugly version is rarer.

3. The "next generation" of an obscure car might be less obscure but similar enough to the obscure one to be tied to its value.

4. Obscure cars that bear a similarity to other obscure cars in concept, country of origin or purpose are often remarkably similar in price (e.g., European/British "estate" cars...a Morris Traveller (woody) and a Volvo 544 (210) wagon and a Benz Universal or W123 wagon).

What keeps obscure cars (and even well-known ones) out of the big bucks is usually that they lack one of the 3 "Ps" that true classics should all have: Power, Performance & Prestige.

fintail

Well, Shiftright, if you come across any cheapo Universals, please let me know. And I noticed the price rose and condition fell to #3....

What would you say a very nice W112 300SE long is worth? With at least a sunroof, and maybe a floorshift if possible. I want one of these.

Appraisers seem to simply google prices and contrive a value based on like vehicles. Such skill. I hope these guys aren't raking in the cash.

About those Lincolns, I would want the Continental, myself, if I had to have one. The angular window line isn't so bad, if you can ignore the little pimpy opera window.

Today I saw a beautiful Austin 1800 (land crab), in a dark teal blue. I wonder how many of those were sold here.

Mr_Shiftright

Ah well, you didn't mention *condition* of your friend's car in your first post, and my response was:

"he should take one of those countless offers if it's anywhere over $3,500." (that's a lot of slack, "anywhere" over $3,500).

The reason most car owners don't evaluate their old cars correctly to Fair Market and need appraisers is that they don't understand the critical relationship between condition and value. Their approach is too one dimensional in many cases.

A decent W112 300SE? About the same as any 60s Benz sedan...a #3 about $5K-6K. I'd probably bargain for a lower price for a stick shift as they are a chore to drive. ("oar in a barrel") The car is much better as an automatic. A 230SL of similar vintage however, you would add for stickshift. Again, supply and demand dictates this. A 300SE with some cosmetic needs could be had very cheap. That's what I'd search for if I were you.

An Austin 1800? That's a really rare bird in the U.S. Good sighting for "obscure"! I'm not sure if they ever came here. Perhaps a trickle in the mid-60s. They certainly made a lot of them at one time. I think we got the 1100 instead in the US and the Mini. I'd have to do some research on that.

They are practically worthless in the US because they are unknown and unloved here. Value? Maybe $2,500 for the best in the world.

Here's a photo for those who've never seen one.

jrosasmc

I'm in London right now and I've seen two Triumph Stags so far. They were both in great condition. I'm assuming they're better off in the UK than in the States, right? I've been told many times that U.S. Stags aren't worth having these days.

logic1

Are you travelling or doing a semester abroad?

lemko

...but uncommon. I saw a white 1963 Cadillac Sedan DeVille outside a local garage this morning on my way to work. Looks like somebody's embarking on a restoration project.

magnetophone

What area of London are you in?

Mr_Shiftright

I really dont' know what the Stag market is in London, sorry, but certainly just about ANY British car here in the USA is a bit more in the UK, and some of the obscure Brit cars are much more loved there than here. A nice Stag in the U.S. is probably a $5,000 car all day long and forever.

One reason you'll see obscure cars sell for more in the UK is a) they aren't obscure there (LOL!) and b) they are much more comfortable and skilled when working with rust. They will fix cars we wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole (and then sell them back to us--hahaha!)

andys120

is the car that was popularly known in the UK as the Maxi. If there was a cab version it would be the Maxi Taxi LOL!

My friend's Dad had an MG 1100 which looked like a SWB version of the car in the photo so I assume it was related. That car was a hoot to drive and incredibly roomy inside.

Mr_Shiftright

I always liked the 1100, too. The mutt of the litter was the Austin Marina. That one about destroyed the Austin name in America.

jrosasmc

Logic: I'm doing a semester abroad with an internship (law) requirement.

Magnetophone: I am living in South Kensington, across from the Natural History Museum.

Mr. Shiftright: Was the Austin Marina one of those half-baked British Leyland products?

checkme

A guy I know in the Netherlands just imported a
Mark V -- a yellow one in mint condition. He found it somewhere in rural Texas.

He is pretty sure that it is one of the only ones in Europe, and I have no reason to doubt him. It must be quite a sight.

magnetophone

South Kensington is nice. It gets sort of seedier once you get closer to Earl's Court, south of Holland Park. The Kensington High Street shopping area is one of my favorite streets.