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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)
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I can see what you mean by condition...I have seen plenty of ads for 50s cars in near junkyard condition where the moron/owner is asking the price of a good driver. Maybe I am thinking based on what I know personally. I feel fairly safe in judging the condition of a car, esp a Mercedes.
I wish I could find that W112 300SE LWB period. I have seen two for sale...a mechanically sound mess needing total bodywork and an entire interior...for $2000. And a mint 60K mile original, #2 at the lowest, for $15K. It's the top of the fintail range, you know. Rumor has it that some of the late production models in 65 had a ZF 5 speed. That's worth 5 grand by itself, so I hear. I am leery of that car, with the air suspension. But that M189 englne is a great one, a more direct descedent of the 300SL than my M127 220SE. It's fast and revvy. Injected fintails were raced very successfully.
The Austin I saw was the almost same color as your pic, but it was much cleaner and shinier. I would almost think it was restored, but who would do so on one of those? The one here was LHD, by the way. I suspect something like that is of little value even in England. I think I have seen the car a couple times, now that I think of it. When I see that thing, I have to think of the Griswalds British rental car in 'European Vacation'...that was a Maxi I think.
I think a 1100 was the same platform as the 1800...that weird transverse FWD thing. I bet they rusted real good too.
The market sets the price, not appraisers or owners. This is important to remember in any economic transaction I think.
The reason why old German sedans (or say an old JAguar XJ6), or these "obscure sedans" aren't worth that much is that people are shy of the cost and difficulty of repairs and restoration, and this affects the market price. A $2000 300SE or Jaguar XJ6 needing body and interior and god knows what is a Money Pit from which there is no return, financial or otherwise. Better to wait out the guy asking $15,000. He'll have to come down sooner or later (if he REALLY wants to sell the car and isn't playing "fishing games") and then you have a car worth owning. Low miles or everything done at someone else's expense.
If a car won't book at $20,000++ in #2 condition, there's really no reason to restore one from the ground up unless you want some kind of weekend therapy and can kiss the money goodbye without regret. If you have that attitude, well fair enough, go for it.
I have a very nice 220SE fintail, better than 90% of them out there without a doubt, and I know it might bring $5000 on a good day. I think it is undervalued by the market, but that's not so bad, as I plan to accumulate more as time goes on, and more affordable is better. I also have no plans to do any major restoration on this fintail, save for upgrades like wide whitewall radials, and mechanical issues as they come up. I might actually do a nut and bolt restoration on it...if I win the lottery. Otherwise, I can't justify it. It's 'good enough' as is, and for the restoration costs I could find a perfect 300SE and have years worth of maintenance money left over. But really, it's been a good car. I bought it as a high schooler, drove it for many years, and it only had a couple problems. The FI is complex, but very sturdy, and the car isn't hard to work on. I don't see why people are so scared of these cars.
Here's a page with my cars if you want to look...both the 126 and the 111. They are both fairly obscure, so they even fit the thread title.
http://members.cardomain.com/fintail
(these are buyable in nice shape for under or just about at $5,000--perhaps you could call the 544 and the Q45 "obscure"--and the list includes Alfa Romeos 1981 on up, MGB-GT coupes, MG Midgets pre-1975, Volvo 544s, old Miatas, 1st gen. Infiniti Q45s, VW bug sedan;
Now then these wonderful cars are buyable in nice shape (high miles of course) at or under $2,000-- Mercedes W115/123 n/a diesels, Peugeot 504s, Toyota Tercel 4X4 wagons.
and of course my favorite undervalued supercar, the Mazda RX-7 TT at around $15K for the performance of a car normally costing $75K.
Ponton sedans generally sell for 20%-30% more than a fintail in #2 or #1 category but it's pretty close in the #3s. Ponton coupes however will sell for 4X the price of the ponton or fintail sedan.
That's a classic case where the more valuable edition of a car (the coupe and convertible) pull up the price of the sedan "somewhat"; the fintail doesn't have this going for it.
Technically, there is a fintail coupe so to speak, a 111 coupe, usually worth double-triple a comparable fintail. The convertibles bring big bucks, but not like a ponton. I guess that old high grille does it.
A Land Rover might be cool, an old 60s safari thing. But a Range Rover...bad images of electrical disasters and rust.
I saw a Lada Niva/Cossack today, and a very nice metallic maroon Studebaker Lark convertible, maybe c. 1961
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- =2431415036&category=6126
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Early Range Rover --I can't think offhand of a good thing to say about them so I won't say anything other than don't ever buy one. Watching too many old safari movies can confuse you into making a big mistake, that somehow those tough, brutal, primitive diesel Land Rovers that the Great White Hunters drove around have anything at all in common with those posh, gas hungry, slower than mud, nervous as a French Poodle early Range Rovers with the wheezy 1960s Buick engine.
Why would one classify a Mercedes 111 coupe a fintail? It has no tailfins whatsoever.
As for value, I think the later V8s bring any decent money from what I've seen. I've noticed how poorly these big 60s coupes flounder at auction because they are heavy cars with small 6s and are very expensive to fix. The V8s are hot, though, and can bring incredible prices---due to rarity and desirability and the "low grille" styling from I think 1969-71. The earlier cars are thought to be a bit dated and ponderous in front compared to the low grilles, or so the big buck buyers think. So one of these coupes can be a good buy. I've seen very decent ones sell for $6,000-$8,000, if you are in the right place at the right time, that is, "no reserve" auctions like Silver or Hot August Nights. Bidding is always light on these old coupes for some reason.
-Andrew L
I have even seen V8 coupes not bring a ton of money as well. It's all in the convertibles. I am sure you have seen the poorly done convertible conversions out there on 111 coupes. And I think the higher grille goes better with the 111 coupe body, personally. It is much more old fashioned and almost 50s style, with the stacked lights and all. Seeing as that body has an old fashioned window line and the wrap around rear window...it matches better. I think bidding is light on those coupes for the same reason fintails are worth so little...restoration easily exceeds value of the car.
I think that nowadays, good 111 fintails are actually much rarer than 111 coupes or convertibles.
Here's an interesting concept car...a fintail front with a 111 coupe rear...very elegant. And it even has the little fin nubs like on a coupe. It's a shame they never made this one.
I remember how 1967 fintail owners howled like madmen when the '68 came out. They were upset that they were not warned about the styling change. It was a big flap at Mercedes. I recall this because I was working for them at that time and was even driving an older fintail. Lawsuits were even filed!
About rarity of sedans: Oddly enough, it is actually the rule in collectible car history that the more common cars disappear faster than the rarer of more desirable ones. The reason is simple, the coupes and convertibles are "saved" by restoration when worn out, whereas the only sedans left are the original survivors from little old ladies, etc.--When most old sedans blow up, they are usually parted out, as you well know, to keep their coupe/convertible brethren on the road. So the sedan numbers will continually decrease into near oblivion, which ironically might improve their value.
A low grille Mercedes W111 V8 coupe should be worth about...oh...40% over a high grille coupe but is still rather stagnant in the low $20,000 range. There is a tangible and noticeable premium paid for a low grille car, as voted by buyers with their checkbooks at any rate. The merit of each is subjective and I have no preference.
3.5 Cabriolets bring mighty dollars, $70K and over for the very best. So that tells me that the V8 coupe is stagnanting in comparison. You won't see such a vast difference say between a GTO ooupe and convertible, I mean like this 4X price differential.
It's certainly easier to find a mint coupe/convertible than a mint sedan. I don't see sedan prices appreciating as fast...and that's fine with me. You get the same experience and all, for a fraction of the cost.
I can't see why the V8 convertibles bring so much money. They are beautiful cars and all, but not too hard to find. I'd rather have a 6.3 and a 112 300SE and have a fortune left over.
You gotta be kidding. :^)
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Car guys (at least I thought) use the term "cosmetics" to mean the body/interior condition of a particular car, not whether it is basically pretty or not relative to other cars.
Range Rover--I think they were so gutless because the old Buick V8 design (much revised over the years) is basically not a very efficient engine for its size and weight.
Old Land Rovers--these are totally cool vehicles, aren't they?...PRIMITIVE to be sure, but so purposeful in design. When you go to Africa these days, mostly what you are likely to see working in the real bush is Toyotas. Cheaper to fix I was told by the park rangers there (South Africa).
Mercedes 3.5 Cabriolet Low Grille-- well, they only made about 1,200 or them (1969-71) give or take a few, and it's the old "supply and demand" thing at work I think. Obviously, there are more than 1,200 people with money who want them badly, so the price goes up. The perfect show cars (of which most are NOT) should start breaking $100K very soon, and may have already this year. It is destined to be a "first-tier" postwar collectible Benz, like the 300SL and 300SC coupes and convertibles.
300SEL 6.3 -- fabulous car to drive but the repair bills will absolutely crush you. How's $1,500 for a water pump? And let's not talk about the air suspension. So it's a money trap kind of car, selling for a meager $10K-12K but capable of busting you for an equal amount in a year's time.
Of course, a 300SL distributor cap (roadster) can cost you $1,200, but you are putting it on a $175K car, so big difference.
Other "Money Traps" -- Jaguar V12 coupes and Porsche 928s with some "needs" can be had very cheap and yet will eat your checking account like a whale eats krill. Cars to avoid at any cost save for the immaculate low mileage ones---and even then, watch out.
I was watching some nature show the other day, and they were driving some cut down utility vehicle...weird homemade looking body, but I noticed it had a early 90s style Toyota truck steering wheel. You see many Landcruisers in remote locations...that vehicle is kind of like the Land Rover part II. Some may view it as a knock off, but it works.
I suspect the vast majority of those low grille converts have survived. They were a collectible from the beginning. Certainly easier to find one than a 112 300SE lwb sedan. If I wanted a convertible of that style, I might opt for a 112 300SE...more exclusive it seems, and much less money. I know it takes a lottery jackpot or the salary from some cooked overpaid corporate suit job to maintain a 6.3...but if money is nothing...it would be fun to have. I wouldn't mind assembling a lineage of top line S class sedans...but I have never really liked the 116 6.9.
928s seem very cool, but I too have heard the horror stories. When you seem them now for a few grand...you should know to keep away.
Although this manual transmission is typically clunky as all MB shifters were back then (very loose, vague shifting), the 5 speed gives the 280SL the overdrive gear it desperately needs for highway travel. With the common automatic, the 230-250-280SL is very annoying at 70 mph, cranking up some 4000 rpm.
Old Land Rovers-- you can still buy a pretty nicely redone (maybe not show but close) L88 Land Rover for about $15K, if you can stand the primitiveness of it. They're only going to go up and up in value now.
Porsche 928s-- Some people love 'em, and it IS a lot of car for not a lot of money. I just saw a very tidy 1980 5 speed asking price $8,000. Geez, a supercar for used Honda money! But it could kill you in maintenance and repair. It's at least $2,000 just for a clutch in California.
Experts tell me the newer the 928 you buy, the better. It was a product that Porsche slowly improved over time.
Another of my "obscure" favorites:
Porsche 914: Here's a mid engine car that in its later 2.0 liter form was a decent performer. These cars still clean up in autocross and SCCA. Mixture of Porsche and VW parts, great handler, two trunks! lots of room for big guys inside, targa roof and "distinctive" styling. I wouldn't call them pretty. All this for $5,000-8,000 turn key ready to go. All you need is a short-shift kit and a mechanic with tiny tiny hands and long, long arms. Another car NEVER to buy as a RAT or fixer-upper.
These are real cult cars for whitewater boaters. The can easily carry 4 kayakers inside and all the gear plus the boats on top, and the 4x4 comes in handy for remote shuttle roads.
They do tend to rust a bit more than the Tercel sedans in my limited experience.
Steve, Host
I am planning to travel a lot during my mid-semester break in October. Plans include the aforementioned Benz HQ, Gothenburg and Trollhattan, Sweden (Volvo & Saab), and Munich (BMW).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The auto in my fintail is pretty clunky, especially on wet roads for some reason. But it does its job, and from what I have heard, those units last forever. I can deal with the lack of refinement for that. It's no TH400, but it works, and people are still perplexed at the weird ratios and second gear start.
I too think those old Land Rovers will increase as time goes on. A fun hobby car, not a daily driver, and I am sure it could demolish any modern pseudo-off roader in bad conditions.
There's a highline 928 in my area, it has the late wheels and trim...it might be a GTS. I have never looked at it up close, it's always parked at the dealer (maybe not a good thing). It's pretty cool though, back when those were still being made, I really liked them. I also liked the 126 series...and I think that as an aspirational car is more economical than any Porsche.
jrosasmc, I think the MB Museum is in the suburb of Bad Cannstatt. I also think they even offer cars for sale, if you are so inclined.
Looked just like this:
http://www.280zx.us/IM001323.JPG
If so, it's nothing like the Outback, which has full-time AWD and a center differential, with no low range.
The Tercel would be closer to the old Loyale, actually.
-juice
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Pretty incredible for a 91 year old car. It fired right up on the first crank. We only drove a few blocks, to where the parade was starting, but the ride was much better than I thought it would be.
Bentley Eight (today was the first time I ever saw one)
Mercedes 500SL (the old-style '80s, grey market in U.S.)
Alfa Spiders (there are tons of them in London)
Audi 5000 (known as 100 in Europe)
I'm getting the inkling that those cars I mentioned do work much better in Europe than they do in America.
Tercel---yes, it is a 4X4 that you have to shift into 4WD. It does have a low-low first gear that's "extra" on the gear-shift pattern so in fact is a 6-speed in 4WD. It goes pretty darn well in the dirt, lemme tell ya. Would be even better with a small lift of a couple inches.
It's not anywhere as nice as an Outback to drive but it's about ten times cheaper to fix.
Keep your eyes peeled and report back to us. What the H is a Bentley 8?
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I suppose if your primary driving area was in Lincolnshire, the North of England, or in Scotland it would be more feasible, but certainly no picnic!
Cheers,
Scott.
You'll see lots of exotics on the roads in London.
Hundai (spl) 2 door ragtop also !
It was a 3 wheeler with (about) 600cc 2 cylinder boxer engine up front. One wheel in back, the most bizarre thing I've ever seen that was street legal.
The owner said is was a French company that made the engine and chassis, I didn't quite get the name, Deu-something. The body was a kit from a British company, Evo something or other.
I may go back to that garage to see if I can get a snap shot of that one. I looked tiny, maybe 1400 lbs or so curb weight.
-juice
I didn't know that teal was a color choice for MB...
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Ironically, I also believe the road in the film was the same road she actually died on in a car wreck. In the latter case she was driving a Rover, allegedly, although unfounded rumor says her daughter was driving illegally. No proof of that, as I recall.
Perfect for an old guy---the speed won't exceed my near-sightedness when I'm 80.
OBSCURE SIGHTING!
Saw a Triumph Mayflower! This was a kind of razor-edged late 40s Triumph sedan (hey, was way ahead of Mustang and Cadillac "new edge"!). Charming, slow and if you restored one you could get about 1/5th your money back no problem.
http://www.wmspear.com/STA/
I'd rather have one than a Gullwing!
Incredibly I saw a 190SL go by the other day on a flatbed. What are the odds in the same week?
Shifty, when I was a kid I had a Dinky Toy Sunbeam-Talbot (diecast) . That's probably when Automania started for me
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
-juice