Guys, I'd like to draw your attention to something peculiar I just found on Ebay. I don't have time to post the link, but I'll tell you what it is:
There is a 1981 Triumph TR7 for sale, and it only has 95 miles! 95 certified original miles, can you believe that? It has been so many years since I have seen a TR7 or TR8- I thought they all went to the scrapper years ago. Would it be worth having as a collection car, by any chance?
AS Shifty points out if you drive it much you diminish the value, so what do you do, look at it? Sheesh, it's the ugliest two-seater since the Daimler SP-250.
Collectible vlues of the TR-7 reflect it's poor construction and ugly looks.
the Scorpion was the mid-engined rwd coupe. While the Beta was the fwd coupe. I'm trying to recall the name the Scorpion had in Europe, it may have been sold there as a Fiat.
The Pinzgauer, like the Unimog comes in several different configs with as many as six wheels and extended bodies etc.
If I had a car like that to sell, I think I would mark a high price and wait for someone who is strangely obsessed to come along. I mean, the car may be undesirable, but where else are you going to find one with 95 miles on it?
No wait, that was a TI99-4A, nevermind ;-) I did see a Merkur Scorpio yesterday, looking pretty beat-up with lots of soot on its tail. Oddly enough, it was driven by an old lady, camping in the passing lane!
hub---if no one wants one with 50,000 miles on it, why would they want an expensive one with 95 miles on it? It's just going to sink into worthlessness. It's the TR8 that has a chance of at least maintaining value over time.
Actually I take that back. A museum should buy a car like this in case they wish to document each Triumph model, regardless of their merit. That could work for all parties concerned.
Merkurs seem very fragile, and the 4 cylinder is a bone-shaker. Every time I drove one, I wanted to wear a flak vest when I heard that engine rev up.
We have one very nice Scorpio here where I live. Probably a survivor rather than a restored car, since they aren't worth much. Looks comfy though.
There is someone out there who wants everything. If you've got a unique item and you're willing to wait long enough, you'll find them. I paid $3000 for a 1986 Pontiac with peeling paint and bad brakes because it was the exact car I wanted and I could not find one like it anywhere else. Someone, somewhere wants this thing with 95 miles on it, regardless of its poor reputation. Not all buyers are rational actors like you, who carefully consider resale value and reputation before buying a car.
I saw a mid-late 70s Alfa Alfetta sedan today...it looked really nice from a distance...inoffensive 70s Euro modern styling, bland off beige color etc...but when I got up close I noticed the sills were very crusty and the car was starting to decompose. Kind of a shame...to make it this long, the car must have been maintained in the past. Can't be many left.
I also went to a garage sale and noticed a pair of cars in the garage...not really obscure, but unusual. There was a 65 T-Bird and a highline full size 65 Mercury 4-door hardtop, both cars were immaculate. And both were the same color, a metallic bronzish-maroon. Is that "emberglow"?
Here's one for the books: According to the 2004 edition of the Guinness Book of Records, the longest ownership ever of one single car happens to be a man from our own U.S. He purchased his white '54 Corvette in April 1954 and has kept the car ever since. Two thumbs up to him for keeping it so long!
hubs---I don't think every overpriced car will sell eventually because every object follows the law of supply and demand, and by definition there is a ceiling, beyond which NOBODY will pay that price.
This is why prices drop on things. If everything sold, eventually, at any crazy fool price, then prices would never come down for houses, cars, etc. But they do drop.
So I believe that anyone who thinks they can hang whatever pricetag they want on an obscure and unpopular car, fully assured that some fool will pay it, is going to be buying that car a birthday cake every year for a long, long time. We aren't talking Hemi Cuda' here, we are talking TR7.
Like the Alfetta fintail mentioned, the reason why you see so few of them is because everybody junked them rather than fixed them.
Now one could argue that if enough of an obscure brand of car gets junked, the price will go up, and to a certain extent this is true (same demand, which remains near zero, but less supply, so price rises); however; given that the obscure car was generally shunned by 99.9% of humanity, (hence its obscuritgy) this price rise for 'scarcity" can't be very high.
If you pay a very high price for a TR7, you are literally throwing your money away. You can't get use out of it, and you won't get admiration out of it, and you won't get any more value out of it. Hardly an opportunity for any kind of pleasure.
Believe it or not, if you want a very cheap, decent performing track rat/auto-x car, the Merkur is a good choice. One of my auto-x buddies picked a hail-damaged but mechanically sound one for $700. The 2.3 turbo is way down on the refinement scale, but it's fairly easy to get a lot of reliable power out of it. Handling is pretty good too.
We were up in Estes Park, CO yesterday. I guess the local Prowler club was having some sort of club drive. We saw at least 10 of 'em pass down the main drag.
I've been toying with the idea of buying a used Alfa Spider. I know as far as Alfas go they're the most easily serviceable and reliable (if that's the word to be used.) I guess it's that great sunny 70 degree weather in Texas that keeps me thinking convertible.
Well, the shim valve adjustment isn't something your local Chevron station is going to do for you (nor are you unless you have the whole shim set), but generally that Bosch fuel injection is pretty reliable.
My only complaint about the more reliable FI Alfas is that they don't rev like the carburetor cars do.
A 68-69 boatail (sometimes called a Duetto) would be nice.
Today I saw one of those weird cabover Ford Econoline pickups from the early 60s. This thing was obviously very well restored...it looked like it just came off the assembly line. It even had wide whites. It was red and white. I bet a restoration of one of those wouldn't be too pricey...it looks like a very simple vehicle. Pretty cool, in its own way.
I saw one of those decked out like a semi-tractor. It had dual axles, dual chrome exhausts running up the back of the cab, running boards, air hoses in back and external fuel tanks. It really looked good.
Yeah! Those are the coolest-looking pickups around. I once saw two within ten minutes of one another, driving through Hollywood on the 101. I don't think they had been to the same car show or anything; it seemed to be nothing more than a coincidence.
I just saw the new Rolls-Royce being taken for a test drive. My goodness, that thing is hideously ugly. The headlights and front grille look as if they are made out of plastic. The rear looks good, as does the interior -- they have that traditional Rolls-Royce look. But the front end is simply awful. Awful! How could BMW have done this? It's so wrong.
Also saw a Maybach the other day driving home from the store. Don't know whether it was the 57 or 62 -- didn't get much of a glimpse at it -- but I have to admit that it looked nice. In pictures it looks a lot like a last generation S-Class, but in person you can definately see a difference if you are a car person. It's also BIG -- very big -- but not at all ungainly. It seemed like a very nice car.
but in photos it looks more like a Kenworth than those pickups.
The grille lost it's classical proportions and the headlights, sidemarkers and tailights look cheapo.
Obscurities seen today--
Saab Sonett III (late model--mid 70s V4) in fairly nice driver shape and '69 or '70 Cougar convertible in fair shape (h/l covers open and crooked trim missing).
I saw a fairly new Kia today. Nothing obscure except my friend said to me "check it out. You can press your hands on any of the door glass and roll it down by just pulling down".
And he was right. All 4 door windows just unwound without much pressure.
He says they all do that (manual window models).
Pretty funny. I wonder if anyone has told the Kia engineers yet.
BUT I DO have an obscure car, except I won't see it until Saturday. I'm going to look at a 1955 Lancia Aurelia B24 Spyder.
What is interesting about the Lancia Aurelia models, (starting with the B20 in 194...um 8?) are two things:
1. It's the first car ever to use a V-6
2. These cars actually went from showroom to winning or placing high in races like the Mille Miglia. In one Mille, an Aurelia managed to place between a pair of Mercedes Gullwings, one of which one the race outright.
As someone once said of the Aurelia GT, "it makes the modern use of the term "GT" on cars seem like a very grotesque marketing joke".
...door was on the market for 9 months, and now we finally got new neighbors. They moved to SC from Miami (!), and today I got a first glimpse of one of their five cars: It's a black Fiat 124 Spider! A Europhile in South Carolina!! Break out the Champagne, that's got to be celebrated!!!
The Lancia Spider was really nice. What a bizarre car to have sitting in the middle of the Nevada desert.
The term "spider" has become bastardized I'm afraid--traditionally, it means a car with very minimal trim and weatherproofing. With roll up windows and a fold down roof, that Fiat should not be called a Spider but a convertible. But I think even Fiat called it a Spider, or "Spyder". Shame on them they should know better.
The B24 Aurelia doesn't even have door handles, and sports a flimsy top that you disconnect and stow behind the seats, in a true "roadster" fashion.
The V6 engine sounded strong. It didn't have the optional "Nardi Kit" (twin carbs) but the car felt like a sub 10 second automobile nonetheless, and was a ball to drive. Revs right up for a V6, too, great engine note.
Only 240 of these Spiders were made 1954-55.
Value....this car in #3 condition (clean average)---about $65,000.
Obviously, these classic Lancias should not be confused with the junk they sent over here in the 70s and 80s.
Actually, nobody knows where the term "Spider" comes from. The French prnounce it SPEE-DAY.
My theory is that it comes from horse-drawn carriage days, when a "spider" buggy was one where the driver stood in an open cockpit behind the carriage itself (behind the rear wheels). The female spider carries her young in a sac on her back.
I saw what at first what I thought was a VW Fox 4-door station wagon. That didn't seem right, as I thought all the Fox wagons were 2-door models. Upon a closer look, turns out it was one of those old 80's Quantum station wagons.
I kinda liked the Quantum when they were new, but I heard they were really trouble-prone. This one hadn't survived the years too well, either, with enough rust-out to make a '71 Vega look good!
my ex-wife had a friend that had a Quantum. At this time, it would've probably only been about 7-8 years old, but it was smoky and ratty looking. My wife's friend was a lawyer, and I remember teasing the wife, saying that she must not be a very good lawyer if she's driving a car like that!
Well, that could be true. Kind of an odd choice for someone who could afford more...couldn't be the most reliable car either. Seeing as it made it to an obscure car list...I would guess most have had catastrophic failures. BTW, this car was sold as a Passat everywhere else...that model has surely improved.
I had a Quantum sedan, and it was a very good car for me. Probably you are thinking of the earlier Quantum with 4 cylinder VW engine, (pre 1984??) not the later ones with the Audi 5 cylinder. This switch made a lot of difference in reliability, as this engine was used, I think, in the Audi 4000--a pretty good car itself overall. Audi engines have always been a strong point for VWs and Audis.
You can get decent money for a clean used Audi 4000 Quattro but most Quantums are boat anchors at this point and will perish for sure.
Quantum was discontinued in the US in I believe 1988.
If you found a very clean 5 cylinder one cheap, it would be a good beater. They are comfortable and economical cars.
about the VW 411? I used to see these on occasion when I was a kid, but the last time I remember seeing one was in the junkyard (a junkyard that rarely, if ever, crushes ANYTHING!)
I used to think they were neat when I was a kid, but when I did a google search to jog my memory, it's like damn, what a little pig! In a twisted sorta way though, they're still kinda neat.
I took my driver's test on my grandmothers 412 wagon (an evolution of the 411). With an automatic, a complete dog, and probably the heaviest steering I ever experienced (odd, since the engine was in the back). A complete dog, until spontaneous combustion occured.
It's interesting how car survival rates work, isn't it? I mean, I've recently seen three examples of a car they made 200 of, and cars that were made in abundance, like the 411 and the Corrado, are extremely rare sightings.
It supports the theory that the most common cars disappear at a much faster rate than the limited production ones.
in Brasil? It seems like the Quantum was a 4-dr wagon version of the Santana, popular with Taxi drivers. Considered a very nice car, too. I think it was off the same platform as a Santana sedan. VW has a ton of South America only models, some of them are ... interesting, to say the least. Like the Gol based pickup trucks, for example.
There was last time I went. VW do Brasil has a couple of unique models, the Gol for instance. In Europe they sell the Polo, but it was deemed too "soft" for Brazilian tastes. So VW gave the go-ahead to engineer their own model, the Gol.
That's the hatchback model. The Voyage is the coupe based on it, and the Parati the wagon, in 3 doors or 5. And yes, even a wild, tiny pickup called Saveiro.
Then they have the ancient Santana sedan and Quantum wagons. I'm not sure if they still produce them now.
They did start manufacturing the Golf in Brazil, in fact they export them here now.
I tell ya, step outside the USA and the cars are wildly different.
Comments
There is a 1981 Triumph TR7 for sale, and it only has 95 miles! 95 certified original miles, can you believe that? It has been so many years since I have seen a TR7 or TR8- I thought they all went to the scrapper years ago. Would it be worth having as a collection car, by any chance?
Collectible vlues of the TR-7 reflect it's poor construction and ugly looks.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I saw a showroom looking Lancia Beta today...it had some kind of special exhaust and sounded like a junior Ferrari.
I wouldn't think even a mint TR7 would bring big bucks. Simply not a great car....it will be remembered for badness.
Pinzgauer
Unimog
The Pinzgauer, like the Unimog comes in several different configs with as many as six wheels and extended bodies etc.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
It is ugly enough to be cool, however, and you may be the only kid on the block with one---so there is that allure.
RE: the "brand new" TR7.
Here's my read on a car like that....if nobody wanted it new, it's never going to be worth a great deal when old.
There are probably baseball cards or vintage oil cans that are worth more than a TR7 with 95 miles on it.
Think of what an Aztek with 95 miles on it will be worth in the year 2025. Exactly! $2,750 on a good day.
-Andrew L
Actually I take that back. A museum should buy a car like this in case they wish to document each Triumph model, regardless of their merit. That could work for all parties concerned.
Merkurs seem very fragile, and the 4 cylinder is a bone-shaker. Every time I drove one, I wanted to wear a flak vest when I heard that engine rev up.
We have one very nice Scorpio here where I live. Probably a survivor rather than a restored car, since they aren't worth much. Looks comfy though.
There is someone out there who wants everything. If you've got a unique item and you're willing to wait long enough, you'll find them. I paid $3000 for a 1986 Pontiac with peeling paint and bad brakes because it was the exact car I wanted and I could not find one like it anywhere else. Someone, somewhere wants this thing with 95 miles on it, regardless of its poor reputation. Not all buyers are rational actors like you, who carefully consider resale value and reputation before buying a car.
-Andrew L
I also went to a garage sale and noticed a pair of cars in the garage...not really obscure, but unusual. There was a 65 T-Bird and a highline full size 65 Mercury 4-door hardtop, both cars were immaculate. And both were the same color, a metallic bronzish-maroon. Is that "emberglow"?
This is why prices drop on things. If everything sold, eventually, at any crazy fool price, then prices would never come down for houses, cars, etc. But they do drop.
So I believe that anyone who thinks they can hang whatever pricetag they want on an obscure and unpopular car, fully assured that some fool will pay it, is going to be buying that car a birthday cake every year for a long, long time. We aren't talking Hemi Cuda' here, we are talking TR7.
Like the Alfetta fintail mentioned, the reason why you see so few of them is because everybody junked them rather than fixed them.
Now one could argue that if enough of an obscure brand of car gets junked, the price will go up, and to a certain extent this is true (same demand, which remains near zero, but less supply, so price rises); however; given that the obscure car was generally shunned by 99.9% of humanity, (hence its obscuritgy) this price rise for 'scarcity" can't be very high.
If you pay a very high price for a TR7, you are literally throwing your money away. You can't get use out of it, and you won't get admiration out of it, and you won't get any more value out of it. Hardly an opportunity for any kind of pleasure.
We were up in Estes Park, CO yesterday. I guess the local Prowler club was having some sort of club drive. We saw at least 10 of 'em pass down the main drag.
My only complaint about the more reliable FI Alfas is that they don't rev like the carburetor cars do.
A 68-69 boatail (sometimes called a Duetto) would be nice.
I just saw the new Rolls-Royce being taken for a test drive. My goodness, that thing is hideously ugly. The headlights and front grille look as if they are made out of plastic. The rear looks good, as does the interior -- they have that traditional Rolls-Royce look. But the front end is simply awful. Awful! How could BMW have done this? It's so wrong.
Also saw a Maybach the other day driving home from the store. Don't know whether it was the 57 or 62 -- didn't get much of a glimpse at it -- but I have to admit that it looked nice. In pictures it looks a lot like a last generation S-Class, but in person you can definately see a difference if you are a car person. It's also BIG -- very big -- but not at all ungainly. It seemed like a very nice car.
The grille lost it's classical proportions and the headlights, sidemarkers and tailights look cheapo.
Obscurities seen today--
Saab Sonett III (late model--mid 70s V4) in fairly nice driver shape and '69 or '70 Cougar convertible in fair shape (h/l covers open and crooked trim missing).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Any links?
-juice
And he was right. All 4 door windows just unwound without much pressure.
He says they all do that (manual window models).
Pretty funny. I wonder if anyone has told the Kia engineers yet.
BUT I DO have an obscure car, except I won't see it until Saturday. I'm going to look at a 1955 Lancia Aurelia B24 Spyder.
What is interesting about the Lancia Aurelia models, (starting with the B20 in 194...um 8?) are two things:
1. It's the first car ever to use a V-6
2. These cars actually went from showroom to winning or placing high in races like the Mille Miglia. In one Mille, an Aurelia managed to place between a pair of Mercedes Gullwings, one of which one the race outright.
As someone once said of the Aurelia GT, "it makes the modern use of the term "GT" on cars seem like a very grotesque marketing joke".
Very interesting car.
Today I spotted an Aston-Martin Vantage (Cabriolet). I don't think it was the current model but perhaps the most recent gen.
I find myself more and more attracted by current AM styling. They really look like gentlemen's expresses, sleek and fast but not gaudy or flashy.
The light blue Vantage I saw today was probably about the 5th or 6th Aston I've seen in my entire life.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The term "spider" has become bastardized I'm afraid--traditionally, it means a car with very minimal trim and weatherproofing. With roll up windows and a fold down roof, that Fiat should not be called a Spider but a convertible. But I think even Fiat called it a Spider, or "Spyder". Shame on them they should know better.
The B24 Aurelia doesn't even have door handles, and sports a flimsy top that you disconnect and stow behind the seats, in a true "roadster" fashion.
The V6 engine sounded strong. It didn't have the optional "Nardi Kit" (twin carbs) but the car felt like a sub 10 second automobile nonetheless, and was a ball to drive. Revs right up for a V6, too, great engine note.
Only 240 of these Spiders were made 1954-55.
Value....this car in #3 condition (clean average)---about $65,000.
Obviously, these classic Lancias should not be confused with the junk they sent over here in the 70s and 80s.
Actually, nobody knows where the term "Spider" comes from. The French prnounce it SPEE-DAY.
My theory is that it comes from horse-drawn carriage days, when a "spider" buggy was one where the driver stood in an open cockpit behind the carriage itself (behind the rear wheels). The female spider carries her young in a sac on her back.
I kinda liked the Quantum when they were new, but I heard they were really trouble-prone. This one hadn't survived the years too well, either, with enough rust-out to make a '71 Vega look good!
IIRC, didn't these things have 5-cyl engines?
I think they did have those engines, yes. I remember a few being around still in the 90s...smoky if I rememeber correctly.
You can get decent money for a clean used Audi 4000 Quattro but most Quantums are boat anchors at this point and will perish for sure.
Quantum was discontinued in the US in I believe 1988.
If you found a very clean 5 cylinder one cheap, it would be a good beater. They are comfortable and economical cars.
I thinbk the Passat was one of those cars that owners either swore by or swore at. It was long a favorite in New England.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Saw a new Maserati coupe today. Those things look really nice on the road. The c-pillar in particular has a very nice, corporate look.
-juice
4Motion and Quattro are the same system but Synchro was a different system.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Ah, we are BOTH right (isn't that nice when that happens?)
The 4000 had the 4 cylinder but the 4000 Quattro had the 5. So the Quantum got to share the Quattro engine later in life, that's the car I had.
the Audi 5 was a helluva good engine, basically indestructible. My friend who runs a Porsche/Audi shop says they are easy 250K engines.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
-juice
I used to think they were neat when I was a kid, but when I did a google search to jog my memory, it's like damn, what a little pig! In a twisted sorta way though, they're still kinda neat.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
-juice
The 411 was never highly regarded or popular. On paper it seemed like a good idea to take the virtues of the popular Beetle and upsize them.
They ended up with a car that was still small, even more gutless and a general pig all around.
I don't think it caught on in Europe either.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
It's interesting how car survival rates work, isn't it? I mean, I've recently seen three examples of a car they made 200 of, and cars that were made in abundance, like the 411 and the Corrado, are extremely rare sightings.
It supports the theory that the most common cars disappear at a much faster rate than the limited production ones.
-Jason
That's the hatchback model. The Voyage is the coupe based on it, and the Parati the wagon, in 3 doors or 5. And yes, even a wild, tiny pickup called Saveiro.
Then they have the ancient Santana sedan and Quantum wagons. I'm not sure if they still produce them now.
They did start manufacturing the Golf in Brazil, in fact they export them here now.
I tell ya, step outside the USA and the cars are wildly different.
-juice