I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

Mr_Shiftright

Well beauty in the eye of the beholder I guess when it comes to those years of Cadillac. I find them prime examples of wretched excess myself. If I ran a design school, they would be in the "Never Do This" 101 class. :P

Yes the Lincolns *were* handsome because they were CLEAN. Not birthday cakes! Mechanically atrocious however, but that's not the point.

The '63 Gran Turismo was mostly a hat trick--just bolting body parts on a '55 Studebaker--in that sense, BRILLIANT---but really more a credit to '55 styling than '63 styling.

mp67riv

Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. I also like the 62 Cadillac (and the 61 to a lesser extent), and certain models in 1960 were kind of nice (Eldorado Seville). The 62 Impala is one of my favorites from the era, along with the 62 Grand Prix and Olds Starfire and 98. I think the 2 door hardtops were generally better than the 4 doors, but some of the 4 doors were nicely balanced. I'm currently working on getting my 61 Electra 225 (4 door Riviera hardtop) back on the road after a fairly complete restoration. So as you can tell, I kind of like GM's offerings during those years. I think GM did a pretty good design job on its large cars through around 66-67, when they began getting a little bloated looking.

andre1969

Actually the '62 Chevy is my favorite of that '62-64 style that the gangstas love so much. I thought it was cleanly styled, and liked the forward thrust of the grille. The '63 seemed more cluttered up, but still reasonably attractive. And the '64, while still decent, seemed a bit too flat-faced for my liking. Not saying I'd rule one out in a nice configuration, but I just prefer the '62. The '61 is a bit wilder still, but in a way that appeals to me, so I think I'd rank it above the '62.

As for Pontiacs, I tend to go for the odd years. While technically a 50's car, I tend to throw the '59 Pontiac in with the 60's cars, since '59-64 were the same basic style. Anyway, I like the '59, but not so much the 60. I think the '61 is my favorite of them all. The '62, while a clean style, I just don't like the little beak that was starting to form, and the headlights seem mounted too far outboard, like they were taking that "Wide Track" style to new extremes. Love the '63, with its forward thrusting stacked headlights, but not so much the '64, with its more flat-faced look. But, I did come close to buying a '64 Bonneville convertible once, so I wouldn't rule one out. The '65 was more voluptuous, but I love it again, especially with the headlights, that went back to the forward thrust. '66 is nice, but I didn't like the way the headlights lost that forward thrust. The '67 got a little fatter still, but there was just something about its style that always grabbed me, even when I was a little kid. Enough so that when I found one for sale, I snatched it up. One thing I really like about it is the low bumper/grille combination, which makes the car look lower and gives it a futuristic look. I guess the concealed wipers helped with that, too. But the the '68, I really don't care for. It's like the car went from hip and swinging, something Major Nelson would drive after he and Jeannie had kids and needed a useable back seat, to something that Doctor Bellows would drive!

The '69 had the same basic styling themes as the '68, but they toned down the beak, smoothed out the sides, and improved the proportions of the taillights, making it a good looking car IMO. But then with the '70, they tried applying that neoclassic Grand Prix styling across the board, and it just didn't work, coming off as a bit tacky and overdone, and the seeds for the pimpmobile were fertilized.

As for the Mustang II, I know it takes a lot of chops-busting, but considering that timeframe, was it really so bad? If nothing else, I think it tended to be rated higher than the Chevy Monza and its offshoots. And it was getting to the point that a lot of Camaros were just 6-cyl or 305 V-8's, in a car almost as heavy as the downsized '77 Caprice.

andre1969

Oh I LOVE the '61-62 Cadillac! In fact, I found one locally for sale a few weeks ago, a pretty sage green '62 hardtop coupe, and was very tempted into doing something not fiscally responsible!

To me, the '61-62 Caddies looked like they were trying to go for a slightly more youthful, sporty, yet still monied crowd. I can definitely see a little influence from the '61 Continental in them. Not in the actual styling so much...not a blatant ripoff or anything, but more in the way it was a clean, sleek car that tried hard to trim the excess of the models that came before.

The '63 Caddy is still an attractive car to me, but it looks like they were trying to go a bit more conservative and mature.

mp67riv

You hit on something there. It seems to me that the 61-62 Caddies (and other GM offerings) were nicely sized in that they were smaller and more sporty than the 59-60s, and they all got bigger with the 63-64s. Having said that, the 63-64 Pontiacs managed to look more youthful even though they got bigger. I can't say the same for the others, even though the 63 Wildcat had some youthful flair. I'd love to get hands on a 63-64 Grand Prix, but have no place to keep it out of the weather.

andre1969

I just looked in my old car book, and it looks like the Riviera name pretty much DID go away after 1958, with one exception. In 1959, Buick offered the Electra in 4-door sedan, hardtop coupe, and hardtop sedan, but above that was the Electra 225, offered in hardtop sedan, convertible coupe, and "Riviera hardtop sedan". Oddly, the Riviera and regular hardtop were priced the same, at $4300, so I dunno what the difference was. Unless my book's wrong?

In 1960, it was the same deal, and prices even held the same. For 1961, the Electra 225 was offered only as a convertible or the Riviera hardtop sedan. If you wanted a hardtop coupe or pillared sedan, you had to go with the non-225 Electra. Base price for the '61 Electra 225 Riviera was $4350.

For 1962, all Electras were called Electra 225. You could get a pillared sedan, hardtop coupe, hardtop sedan, convertible, or "Riviera 6-window hardtop sedan", which was the priciest at $4448. The regular hardtop sedan was $4186.

For 1963, my book lists 4-door sedan, hardtop coupe, hardtop sedan, convertible, and "pillarless sedan". No mention of the Riviera. And I have no idea how "pillarless sedan" is different from "hardtop sedan", although it was $4254, versus 4186 for the hardtop sedan.

bumpy

Not really. The W numbers are platform codes, but they're useful as shorthand since MB didn't go in for the yearly or bi/triennial model refreshes. Japanese manufacturers also did the code thing (Nissan's in particular are generally well-known), probably since they borrowed so much else from European practice over the years.

The Buick "Super Riviera" is more analogous to the extra names that the domestic station wagons got over the years.

andre1969

The W numbers are platform codes, but they're useful as shorthand since MB didn't go in for the yearly or bi/triennial model refreshes.

I guess those W-type numbers that Benz uses are actually more useful than the designations the domestics would use, since every time they'd redesign, they'd change part of it. For example, they had the W116, then the W116, and then whatever came after that. But if you mention a GM B-body, it could be almost anything. Up through 1958 it was usually an Oldsmobile or a Buick Special/Century. Then from 1959-96, it was your standard full-size car. But, it still had a bunch of generations. 1959-64, 1965-70, 1971-76, and then 1977-96, with a major redesign for 1991. I'm still convinced though, that the '77+ models were actually based on the '73-77 intermediates...although GM would probably never fess up to that! :P

explorerx4

kind of a maroon color, which i liked, but a 'Red Sox' themed vanity plate, which i did not.
right after that, a blue early 70's chevy pickup with some period bliggy upgraded wheels.

Mr_Shiftright

I really don't like the '62 Chevy rear end. I think it ruins the car. Looks how the rear end fans outward on the sides. Bleck. :sick:



1965 gets it "right"



I also have a hard time wrapping my mind around the combination of "Cadillac" and "sporty" but I'll keep trying. If I had to choose a Cadillac 59-63, I think I'd go for 1962. The '63 has those frog eye headlights, don't like 'em. HEY FROGGIE!

berri

As for Pontiacs, I tend to go for the odd years

I think you're on to something Andre, except I'd say that is generally true back to '55, although I liked ther 58's and thought they were the only good looker from B-O-P that year, particularly the Bonneville. In fact, I think Pontiac tended to be the best looker most of the time. However, your 67 is the one year where IMO the front and rear don't blend as well, like Pontiac wasn't quite sure where it was going. However, that also makes it a bit unique and maybe a bit more collectible. Personally though, I liked the 69 Pimpmobile Grand Prix.

I think your observation is true for most of GM, and really for a lot of Ford and Mopar as well. I never actually thought about that until you brought it up.

berri

The 62 Impala is one of my favorites from the era, along with the 62 Grand Prix and Olds Starfire and 98.

I think that Starfire is a looker and a sleeper, a real nice car for its time. The 62 Chevy tended to draw mixed opinions. Some felt is was cleaner and lighter looking than the 63/64, while others thought the 63/64 got a little fat and heavy. Personally, I liked the 61-63, but thought the 64 had gotten a little overdone.

think GM did a pretty good design job on its large cars through around 66-67, when they began getting a little bloated looking

I think 67 was kind of a transition year as cars started losing their styling individuality after that. I think the golden design era for me was 55-67.

fintail

The W designations are very handy in terms of defining a time period, but like the GM platforms they don't do much to distinguish models, rather sizes. Like the W116...it can exist in 280S/SE/SEL, 300SD, 350SE/SEL, 450SE/SEL. The only certainty is a production run from model years 1972-80. When the next version comes along, most of the time another number higher is added, but not always, especially in the past.

andys120

The '62 Electra convertible is one of my favorite GM designs of all time. I got to drive a pale yellow one with the Wildcat 401 that belong to my buddy's Dad a couple of times. I'd love to have one>

In 1960-63 you saw the transition from the excesses of the late Harley Earl styling period to the clean sculptured styling of the Bill Mitchell era. IMO the General went from some of Detroit's worst styling ever to some of the best in a few short years.

andre1969

For some reason, I'm not that crazy about the '55-56 Pontiac. I think it's a good looking car, except for the front. I just don't like the way the fender tops above the headlights have this look, like it had its eyelids peeled back. I do like the '57 Pontiac though. And I agree with you, that the '58 Pontiac is definitely the best looking of the B-O-P cars. Actually, there's only one little detail that mars the '58 Pontiac for me...again, the headlights. IMO they jut out a bit too far. And the blacked-out part of the surround that's under the headlight adds to the swollen-ness, like it has bags under its "eyes"!

As for the '69 Grand Prix, I actually like that car. I just didn't like the 1970 big cars, when they tried to apply that neoclassic styling, with the tall, thin grille, across the board. I think it looked decent on the midsized cars, but just didn't carry over well to the big-uns.

Mr_Shiftright

Pontiacs were thought of as old lady/old man cars for most of the car's existence, and for some reason didn't make the transition from dowdy to sexy as quickly as Chevrolet and Buick and Cadillac did. I think when they got on that "wide track" kick, that helped a lot, and of course the GTO did the trick.

ghulet

here's one that's rare and interesting, if not exactly attractive:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1958-Buick-Riveira-Estate-wagon-4-door-hardtop_W0- QQitemZ220421340760QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item335222be58&_trksid- =p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317%7C240%3A1318

I do like the availability of the pillarless hardtop styling on some wagons of this era (Olds had a version, and I think various Chryslers as well). Kinda combines two of my favorite body styles.

andre1969

I think the Olds version was called the Fiesta? Those things were actually pretty attractive in 1957 form; it still amazes me sometimes that the '57 and '58 are the same basic car!

I think Chrysler offered hardtop wagons from 1960-64. Dodge did a 1-year only thing, with the 1960 Polara wagon. The Matador and Darts were all pillared, though. I think my mechanic has two 1960 Polara wagons. I know he at least has one, but he has so much stuff it's hard to keep track of. The last time I saw it though, it was a total mess. It was all stripped down and looked ready for the crusher, but he said it originally had a 383 Cross Ram engine, and he was planning on restoring it.

Mercury offered hardtop wagons in both 2 and 4 door, from 1957-1960 I believe. I don't think Ford or Edsel ever did, though.

Mr_Shiftright

That Buick is quite rare and would make a swell car-hauler---but alas, in no way worth restoring. It would have to be done as a charitable donation to automotive history, since you'd be belly up on it the rest of your life.

stickguy

I normally don't like 50's era domestics, but that one doesn't look too bad. And might not be financially worth restoring, but it at least looks to be in good enough shape that it can be done.

someone also added lap belts to it. I'm sure they weren't GM issue in 1958!

Mr_Shiftright

The ad mentions floor rust--that can be *real* scary to deal with if the rust has intruded into the base of the floor-to-roof pillars. Then you have to jig the body (bolt it up to an armature) or you'll never get proper door and hood fit. Monster job. This car could eat up $50--$80K, no problem.

andre1969

Then you have to jig the body (bolt it up to an armature) or you'll never get proper door and hood fit.

And this is different from the original fit and finish how? :P

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, even in 1958 Detroit wouldn't send a car out with a door that refused to close entirely. There were some basic standards, even if you could stick your finger in the door gap and it fell off in 2 years.

explorerx4

probably not worth saving

gsemke, this is calling you

5.0 notch

giving our town a bad name

can probably do over half the speedo top speed

how much?

don't see these every day

another how much?

fintail

Old time racer

Batmobile

Class

With malaise added

Needs a little work

Not many of these around

Something the average dieselhead has never seen

American Rabbit

The end

Not rusty considering the make

Fine fintail

French Mercedes

Just needs some detailing

Reliable no doubt

Heavy hauler

Claims of rarity

Horse collar

Probably not even sought after at home

Attention getter

Fun in corners and crosswinds

Chop job

fintail

Firebird guy is pretty out there

The Defender is interesting as it is so uncommon on this side of the pond. Some of the LR nuts would like it, although it has to be overpriced.

Mr_Shiftright

69 Merc---just a 302.

75 Corvette--asking big bucks for a car of marginal interest.

2005 Mustang -- try $16,500.

83 Defender -- I have no idea. Never seen one this old. I didn't think they could ever last 25 years. I never thought they could last 10.

77 Trans Am, modified and with needs? Try $12,500 to 13,500. No test drives? Oh, sure, I'll buy it without ever driving it---yeah, sure. Good marketing!

Mr_Shiftright

1952 Porsche -- engine is 1956, that's a big minus. Rust looks scary. You bidders are nuts.

1938 Hudson "pace car" -- you got no proof, you got nothin'

Vanden Plas Princess --- oddball car--Rolls dealers wanted nothing to do with them, Jaguar dealers shunned them, Austin dealers couldn't sell them at that price. Basically a BMC car with a Rolls engine that Rolls never ended up using. Dowdy styling and high price killed it off.

Meyers Manx --- I almost like it!

andys120

Not rusty considering the make

From what I recall, Fiats acquired their reputation for rusting out due to a decision made later in the 1960 which resulted in Fiat designing the Togliatti automobile factory for the Soviet Union (named after a prominent Italian Communist) and licensing Fiat designs for production and sale in the USSR. In exchange the Italian carmaker got a cut-rate deal on supplies of Russian steel.

The poor quality of that Soviet metal would be the bane of those of us who bought Fiats in the late 60s or during the 1970s. :mad:

IIRC that 1960 Fiat 1100 would have been made in the pre-Togliatti era. IMO it's a charming little car.

kyfdx

Alfa 164 LS in the drive-thru lane at MickeyDs..

Two tone gray.. Looked about as ratty as you'd expect a 20-yr-old car to look..

I always wonder... a lot of these cars look like they are daily drivers... How does someone that can only afford a $2000 car afford to keep an Alfa running? (in the MidWest.. not sunny CA).

boomchek

The Tiburon guy should have been making payments instead of blowing money on a worthless bodykit or fog lights or whatever he put into that thing.

Mr_Shiftright

Usually these ratty cars are all patched up, with numerous components not working at all. The clutches slip, the gear grind, the ground beneath the car shows every color of fluid a car can leak, and new brake pads are slapped onto badly grooved rotors. The tires are probably used, it rattles and thumps, the struts could be worked up and down by a 5 year old. Transmission sealer, STP and Stop-Leak cans litter the trunk. One low beam and one high beam light are out. The worn wiper blades have dug a deep groove into the windshield. The car smells like mildew inside and the holed mufflers are held up by a twisted piece of coat hanger. BUT....as long as it starts in the morning, well there you go.

andys120

Imagine my surprise when I saw what appeared to be a rare Ferrari 365 GTB/4 "Daytona" in Spider form! Unfortunately my first impulse was to look at the nose to see if it was the even rarer "glass nosed" early Euro spec version (it wasn't).

I didn't think to check the shape of the windshield which, if it's chromed and square edged, is the giveaway that it's the Miami Vice-style Corvette-based Daytona
replica>

Crockett & Tubbs in replica>


US-spec real 365 GTB/4, note shape of windshield and body color surround>


Chances are the like new-looking car I saw was a replica but I live near NH Motor Speedway and it isn't unheard of for collectors to drive their treasures there and have a few laps around the race course.

Mr_Shiftright

Mighty rare car. I think they call it a GTS/4 if it's a Daytona Spyder---only 121 made. Of course, you should be able to tell just by listening to its exhaust-- whether it's playing the violin or the tuba.

fintail

I think a number of coupes have been turned into spyders, too.

Still, that's a nice sighting, I've never seen one those on the road before...I can't remember if I've ever seen a normal Daytona being driven.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes indeed, quite a few have been chopped.

andys120

I think they call it a GTS/4 if it's a Daytona Spyder---only 121 made

There's some confusion about that point. I think the 275 NART Spider as well as the Daytona spiders got GTB designators , perhaps because there weren't many of either.
Our friends at Fantasy Junction use 365GTB/4 for original Daytona Spiders.

It wouldn't be the first time an Italian maker used inconsistent naming conventions.

Unfortunately I wasn't in a position to hear or get other than a momentary look at it, I would've had to reverse direction and don't think I wasn't tempted..

Mr_Shiftright

Yes there is confusion but really I'm going to continue using GTS/4 as that's the only designation that makes sense. Probably the problem arises because (I think) from what I'm reading, even the convertibles carry a GTB/4 stamp on their chassis plates. I"m not sure if that's because even these cars probably started out life as coupes and were then created at the factory.I'm sure some Ferrari note knows the story in minute crushing, mind-numbing detail :P

I'm going to call Fantasy Junction and ask them to change that or tell me why they won't.

andys120

I'm going to call Fantasy Junction and ask them to change that or tell me why they won't.

Let us know what they say.

andre1969

I went up to the Ford Nationals in Carlisle PA, so naturally I saw a bunch of old Ford products. Also drove a new 2010 Fusion, and I have to say, I'm impressed.

Anyway, one thing that struck me as odd, is that I saw a lot of non-Dearborn obscurities, both going up and coming home. So I wonder if there was some other show going on as well? Anyway, going up, on the highway I saw a Nash Healey Roadster, a mid/late 60's Dodge pickup, and a late 30's Chevy. On the way back, I saw an early 50's Chevy pickup that had been hot-rodded, and, of all things, a 1951-52 DeSoto Custom sedan, in pale blue and looking good. I can't remember the last time I've seen a DeSoto on the road (mine included...I need to do something about that. )

Actually, to show how rare of an occurence it is, I think I DO remember the last time I saw one. It was August 2003, I was coming back from a funeral, and on the DC Beltway, between the two I-270 spurs, we ran into a traffic jam that lasted about an hour. When I finally got to the cause of the traffic jam, which happened about where the eastern I-270 spur joins the DC beltway, there was a 1954 DeSoto PowerMaster, a pale, seafoamy green, stalled out in one of the lanes!

I actually see that car fairly regularly, as it shows up at a local car show in Rockville, MD. I've been tempted to ask the owner about that incident, but feel it would be a bit embarrassing. Here's a pic of it I took back in 2006...

I always liked this car, because it reminds me of the '53 Firedome my Granddad bought when I was a kid. Same color, although ours didn't have the roof contrast. I wanted that car bad, but he sold it just before I turned 16, saying that he didn't want me bringing it back to him to fix every time it broke down! But I ended up getting my Mom's 1980 Malibu, and I brought it to him to fix every time it broke down, so he may have regretted that decision! :P

explorerx4

torvair

70 cutlass vert

russian mafia benz

too many late night red bulls

must mean pickup as in pick up the pieces

if you like some big iron

like bright yellow?

i think it might actually be running

one of the last sporty toyota's

fintail

A Russian mafia MB is a W140, but I guess in 1992 they might have been using W126s.

I don't like yellow nor the weird garage next to that fakey colonial in the background.

Starlet guy is on something.

Mr_Shiftright

"torvair" -- well...um...interesting...70% weight on the rear wheels eh? Sounds like a death wish to me. Or a roped off show car that goes nowhere never. For the same price as a really nice Porsche 911? No, I don't think so. Still I gotta hand it to whoever squeezed all that in there.

300SE -- needs tires? Okay, it's not a $4500 car, it's a $5500 car. It's not like anyone is going to say "oh, tires, well, I'll save up for them".

toyota starlet -- I'm speechless

66 Chevy truck parts--gee, I thought you could buy a entire running '66 Chevy truck for $750. Did this become a valuable classic behind my back?

turbo MR2 -- needs a few more wings don't you think? and scoops...add more scoops....fun for the price however, if you can bear 90s japanese styling.

andre1969

66 Chevy truck parts--gee, I thought you could buy a entire running '66 Chevy truck for $750. Did this become a valuable classic behind my back?

I thought old 60's trucks were a pretty hot item these days? Of course, if it's a total basket case, that's a different story.

fintail

Today I saw a W210 in the same color as mine, a pristine small bumper 2002, a mid 80s Continental - the kind where they tried to mimic the bustleback, a decent looking early 80s Toyota 4x4 with loud period graphics, and a BMW shoe.

Mr_Shiftright

I think it's 50s trucks that rake in the serious money these days. But yeah, a really clean 60s truck will garner interest if it's all done up. I'd say the value ratio of a 60s truck is about 60% that of a 50s model. .

stickguy

stuck in traffic on the 14th st. bridge Sunday.

An early (pre-bumper) 2002. Looked OK, def. a driver, not restored.

And some bright red early 20s hot rod (probably a glass body something, I didn't get a close look at it).

lemko

Hey, I really like that 1979 Cadillac Coupe DeVille. That's a beautiful blue. Of the 1977-79 Cadillacs, I prefer the '79 model. They all have the excellent 425 V-8 which Cadillac should've left in their cars throughout the early '80s instead of making guinea pigs out of the public with their trashy V-8-6-4 and totally abominable HT4100 engines! Those cruddy engines damaged Cadillac's reputation almost as badly as the Cimmaron.

The 1938 Cadillac is drop-dead gorgeous and I really love that black 1959 Buick. Too bad it's just a 4-door sedan. Heck, if it were even a four-door hardtop, I'd bid on it.

lemko

...white 1976 Cadillac Coupe DeVille with red landau top travelling east on Longshore Street near Rising Sun in NE Philly this morning.

fintail

Yesterday I saw a black ponton cabrio parked at a Lexus dealer, a Porsche 914 of unknown engine, and the sought after 190D 2.5.