I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

ghulet

....sports cars used to be so much faster than 'normal' cars, but now that you can get 250hp or more in Accords and Altimas, at least part of the point is lost, at least on me. Of course, nobody's going to notice you if you're driving an Accord instead of a Vette or Porsche, but to me that's a bonus.

fintail

Yep, pretty much. In fact, performance specs are almost identical. Per C&D, March 99: 0-60: 4.9. 1/4: 13.5, speed governed to 155 but should be able to do 180 if de-restricted - several videos on youtube show similar top speeds.

kyfdx

I mean, who ever heard of a steering wheel adjustment that raises the instrument panel up and down?

Subaru XT6? :surprise:

fintail

I suspect a new V6 Accord with the right driver would embarrass many old Vettes and similar cars. Technology keeps marching along.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably the only thing some of the sports cars of 10-15 years ago might do better than today's sedans is on the track. I think a 928 would track better than an E55 because the E55 is built to be comfortable. The 928 is rather harsh and stiff. But again, I really don't know.

I think a V6 Accord would melt on the track, but then so would an old Corvette --- :P

fintail

Yeah, the E55 is kind of heavy, not the best track car. But, it can hold a few people in comfort, and deliver reasonable highway mileage. For a decent sized sedan, it is pretty harsh and stiff too...the older ones like mine are considered a lot more raw than modern examples, even if they have less power.

Performance specs for malaise Vettes are shameful.

andre1969

Probably the only thing some of the sports cars of 10-15 years ago might do better than today's sedans is on the track.

Wouldn't the typical sports car from back then still have a higher top speed than your typical sedan of today? I'm sure there are exceptions, such as Benzes and BMWs and Audis and such, but I'm thinking more mainstream stuff, like a V-6 Altima, Accord, Camry, etc.

Mr_Shiftright

I guess it depends on what you match up. If you pick a 1993 Mazda RX-7 TT, just about any modern mainstream Japanese sedan is going to lose big time, unless it's something like a Mitsubishi EVO.

omarman

I mean, who ever heard of a steering wheel adjustment that raises the instrument panel up and down?

Subaru XT6? :surprise:

Ford Probe?

stickguy

infiniti G too.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh yeah, those Subaru Landing Pods----LOL! In the Porsche, the entire instrument cluster display moved, including (gulp) all the wiring, etc.

lemko

...somebody posted a review where a modern minivan beat the pants off a 1984 Ferrari.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, the early 80s Ferraris were pretty bogged down. this is one reason they are rather cheap to buy.

Did they say if they tracked the cars, say at max speed for a couple of hours? I'd expect the Ferrari to outlast the van in terms of brakes and suspension.

Of course, if you include good looks and sensory perceptions, the Ferrari still wins. I'm sure a suit of armor would wear better than an Italian suit, but.....

hpmctorque

We've danced around various comparisons of sports cars versus sedans in recent messages, but at the risk of getting flamed really badly here, I'm wondering how one justifies the price differential between, say, a Mercedes E350 versus a fully optioned Accord V6. I'm not questioning that the E350 is preferable overall, in terms of ride, handling, seat comfort and overall driving experience, but those attributes are offset by the reliability and cost-of-ownership edge the Accord enjoys. Raw performance and space are close to a wash.

My conclusion is that one chooses the Mercedes over the Honda if prestige is an important consideration, and/or money either doesn't matter, or doesn't matter much. One other advantage of Mercedes is that they age better than Hondas. A well cared for ten year old Benz can turn heads, whereas a ten year old Honda doesn't, even if well cared for.

Conclusion, conclusion: Comparing a three year old E350 to a new Accord evens the score by a fair amount.

I'm ducking!

fintail

I think that's actually pretty reasonable.

Of course, the V8 models can be had for not much more...and those might give a performance edge.

In 2006 I bought a 4 year old 27K mile E55 for the price of a nicely equipped V6 Camcord. The new deluxe family sedan would have its positives, but this way is more fun for me.

bob550k

I saw a Marmon Sixteen over the weekend. Now there's a relic you don't see everyday.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah! That's one to record in your "bird-watchers" book!

Trivia: A Marmon was the car that won the first Indy 500 race. Driver Ray Haroun. Even more trivia. First car ever (possibly) to sport a rear-view mirror.

texases

My old cars were much less exciting - three Model As traveling together Tuesday on I-94, must have been on their way to a show. All three looked brand new.

ghulet

....I saw a light blue, '74 LeMans coupe today, not in the best condition, teenage driver with new temp plates. Kinda unusual, that would have been a car WE would have bought as teenagers 20-some years ago. I guess the strange thing about it was the rear windows, it had the slatted-variety (like a Grand Am, but I'm 99% certain it was a regular or Grand LeMans). Was this optional or something?

ghulet

....I now think it was a '75 (had the eggcrate grill, round headlights); perhaps it was a LeMans Sport (hence the louvered rear side windows)?

andre1969

Yeah, that sounds like a '75 LeMans. IIRC, the '73-74 had a more horizontal grille for the lesser models, and a vertical treatment for the Luxury LeMans. The Luxury was renamed, Grand LeMans for '75 and had a rather handsome, clean, vertical grille. I always found that eggcrate grille on the lesser '75 LeManses to be a bit garish.

IIRC, the Sport Coupe came standard with the louvered rear windows, while the base coupe had the big triangular windows standard, and the louvers optional.

Kinda cool to hear of one still roaming the streets.

ghulet

....I know it's probably only worth the money til something catastrophic happens, but interesting history and with 136k miles and pretty nice condition, the price is harmless enough (I also love the velour and how it doesn't wear out in 25 years like leather does). Lastly, the window sticker/build sheet is fascinating:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/500SEL-Kingdom-of-Saudi-Arabia-Diplomat-Car_W0QQi- - temZ110403518237QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item19b48fff1d&_trksid=p4- - 506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

fintail

If I had lots of spare funds and space, I just might try to save that one.

The four place seating option is extremely rare, and I like that. The sportier velour is actually quite rare too, usually the velour in one of those is a little more old fashioned and plush. And it's a loaded Euro model with airbag, limited slip, etc. Very unusual on this continent.

ghulet

from eBay:

560 SECs tend to vascilate between overpriced or junky, this one is a happy medium, I love the color combo:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCEDES-WOW-RARE-FIND-GORGEOUS-MECHANICALLY-REST- - - ORED_W0QQitemZ270410517402QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item3ef5b90b9a&- - - _trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308

I still miss my mom's old 300E, this is quite nice, low miles and cheap (they're all cheap, but I like the color combo, condition and general odds on this one):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-MERCEDES-BENZ-300E_W0QQitemZ130311672752QQcm- - - dZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item1e572e53b0&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparm- - - s=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

not a bad cheapie 190 Diesel:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MERCEDES-BENZ-190D-2-5-1986-135K-MILES-NO-RESERVE- - - _W0QQitemZ110401443525QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item19b47056c5&_trk- - - sid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I'm generally leary of older SLs, but I like the condition (in photos, anyway) and (alleged) mileage on this, and the price (since everyone seems to think their old SL is worth $10k+) is awesome. Yeah, I know it's gray-market, and despite the fancy ad, it says NOTHING about the car specifically, just about the dealer (oh yeah, and as for old six-cylinder SLs, I wish this were a stick):

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1984-MERCEDES-BENZ-280SL_W0QQitemZ320377187656QQc- - - mdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item4a97f7ed48&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkpar- - - ms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

fintail

That SEC is pretty....my favorite color for MB of that era is the color of my old W126 - "Diamond Blue", but that one is nice too. The period-correct early AMG monoblocks look good on it too. The mechanical restoration claims aren't legit - an engine rebuild alone on one of those would top 10K easily, but at that mileage, it shouldn't need one anyway. Maybe it had some valvetrain work or something.

Speaking of SECs, a local auction house recently sold This period cabrio conversion of a Euro 500SEC from 1983....I forgot to keep an eye on it, and I wasn't able to see what it brought or if it was decent, or who made it. It's very rare anyway, one of a few dozen no doubt. The recent pimpy add on crap could be removed easily...it'd be one for the specialist.

A decent W124 is probably the safest way to enter into MB ownership. You can find good ones for a few grand now, they aren't terrible to keep up with, and they are still competent on the road, 20+ years later.

The 190D is sought after, that's an uncommon car. I am surprised some nut hasn't bought it already.

That SL is probably rusty underneath, given its low price and location. That or it has a mechanical fault of epic proportions....as the price is quite cheap and cosmetically it looks very good.

ghulet

....has a kinder seat, with belts. I should just go look at it, it's maybe 15 miles away.

Here's probably the nicest 300SD on earth, but still, do you really want one at this price?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-MERCEDES-300SD-SEDAN-48-074-MILES-ONE-OWNER-- - DIESEL_W0QQitemZ190315399041QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2c4fae878- - 1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1308

another for the Few Pictures, ZERO description, Insane Price file:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983-MERCEDES-BENZ-380SL_W0QQitemZ350215232806QQc- - mdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item518a745d26&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkpar- - ms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Nice looking, cheapish SEC:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-560-SEC-Mercedes-W126-coupe_W0QQite- - mZ320384813835QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item4a986c4b0b&_trksid=p450- - 6.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

....and unless I'm missing something (or something is not divulged here), this is a helluva deal, even with 207k miles:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-MERCEDES-BENZ-300SE-4-DR-CALIFORNIA-CAR_W0QQ- itemZ230349305109QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item35a1e37515&_trksid=p- 4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like the eBay bidders are a lot more sober than the sellers of these older luxury cars. This is after all 2009, not 1989, with labor rates well over $100 an hour and engine rebuilds on a 500 series car approaching $20,000.

What you're "missing" (I know you really didn't miss it) on the 300E is the mileage. At 207K the car is pretty tired, regardless of the care and maintenance---in other words, unless it's been rebuilt stem to stern, at any moment, catastrophe is lurking.

Keep in mind with these old Benzes that one major failure and you have to junk the car. There's no logical alternative.

So you have to get in cheap, you just have to.

There are some exceptions. Very low mileage cars with a stack of service records the size of the Manhattan phone book would be very very good. I'd pay a premium for a car like that.

280SL -- this is a European car, and ALL European cars are rust-suspect. Once the strict German regulations kicked rust buckets off the road in the 1980s & early 90s, we used to end up with them, after a quick re-furbish in Belgium or Yugoslavia by eastern European workers.

texases

I also imagine the market for '89 300SEs is pretty small, when you can get a V8 for not much more $$. If I want that old MB experience, it'll be a 450SEL...

Mr_Shiftright

Let's face it---the only people shopping for these 80s Benz sedans are NOT collectors---they are people looking for a nice ride or a "look rich for cheap" kind of car.

These old sedans invariably fall into the hands of the very people who cannot take care of them.

I certainly learned my lesson, putting sweat and money into a car that won't be worth a penny more when I'm done fixing it all up.

I'd consider a clean low miles 300E. I have confidence in that model.

fintail

That late 300SD looks amazing, but the bid price is a lot more realistic than the insane buy it now.

A 380SL worth 19K is going to be a concours quality showpiece with four digits on the odometer.

The SEC is kind of miled up, but does look cared for and would make a stylish beater. I don't completely buy the story about the "rare" wheels - those sure look like standard early R129 wheels to me. I see the outside temperature display has died...that would drive me crazy, looking at a dead LCD.

300SE is another good beater, but at that mileage I would like to be sure the transmission is OK, so you can know you'll get at least a few hundred miles out of it. However, the wise money is spending 5-6K and getting an immaculate one with no cosmetic or mechanical needs at all.

ghulet

...but if I were, the only 'daily driver' here would be that 132k mile 87 300E (lots of records, lots of new stuff, $2500); for interest, the Saudi 500SEL is very cool, but I know expensive and/or impossible to repair, but that price is so tempting relative to the interest-factor of that car. For a daily driver, though, the largesse and 10 mpg city are not so hot.

fintail

That's the safest choice. Cheap price of admission, solid mechanicals, not overly complex, still usable as a daily driver.

The 500SEL is for someone with lots of money and time - and in the end you'll just be a nutjob who restored a W126 :shades:

bumpy

Sadly, that 190 is an autotragic; it would have been long gone if it was a manual.

andys120

Fiat 124 Sport Spiders are rare now but you could go years without seeing a 124 Sport Coupe. Today I saw and one appeared to be in nice (not showroom) shape. It was a second gen ( ''70?-''73) in medium blue.

I was instantly jealous of the guy driving it. 124 Sports are a blast to drive and you look good doing it.

Earlier this week I saw a nice dark green post ''74 Sport Spider, perhaps a 2000.

fintail

Patina

"The Bomb"...a real limo

Don't drive over bumps, or railroad crossings, or in the rain

Odd powertrain

Not for the weak of stomach

Blue whale

Bordello on wheels

These get good bids

Of all the things to preserve

The only one left that isn't a 70s dragster

Survivor

Odd rod

When GM was aspirational

Not for this continent

Early subcompact

Probably not the right place for this too

Funny van

Insane bids

"CLASSIC BEAUTY"

ghulet

Just kidding, sort of. I know literally nothing about most European and/or Russian makes, so I can't comment, but as for the others, well...

The '76 Deville chop top: since it wasn't mentioned, I'll assume it doesn't actually have a 'convertible' top; yeah, those weren't the most sturdy of cars anyway, so your comment re: railroad tracks, etc. is duly noted. I'd like it a whole lot better if it had less-nasty-than-schoolbus yellow paint.....Ugh. I guess OK for someone who has a garage and a tenuous ego.

The Supercharged Seville--the answer to a question that nobody asked, especially since someone was inexplicably compelled to spend $70k to do that. There's no accounting for taste or reason, I guess.

The '69 Newport--very nice, but I never understand (from a 'collector' standpoint, though I like as a non-collector) why so many old Chrysler sedans in really nice shape exist versus other domestic brands.....seriously, I don't see as many old lower-line Buicks and Mercurys in this condition, but on eBay I see Chryslers all the time.

The Bordello--see above....Gawd, that interior is sumptuous, I'd totally sleep there, except I'd probably drool too much and sweat from the velour. Sleepy time or yes, other nighttime functions.

"Of all things to preserve"....indeed, I've quickly searched my drunken head and I see no reason, cuz there are no reasons....to save a low-mile but otherwise lackluster '82 Nissan pickup. Perhaps some weirdo will find one, though.

ghulet

...that '78 New Yorker Brougham, is kind of a strange bird: it looks (looked) super-fancy at the time, but is lacking some fairly basic 1978 luxury car features: no power locks, no power seats, no tilt wheel, no cornering lamps.....Not that I'm picking on it per se, but it's kinda one of those cars that has all the flash you'd notice as a stranger and none that you wouldn't, which I guess is kind of a New Yorker in a nutshell. This example is gorgeous, though, and 36k miles, y'know.

ghulet

....(sorry I put us there) of hippo-Chyslers, this is funny:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Showroom-Perfect-Original_W0QQitemZ110404456040QQ- - - cmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item19b49e4e68&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkpa- - - rms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

I love this car, but jeez, it would look so strange driving down any street now (if it would fit), it's just so massive and gaudy. The concave rear end is a bit of styling masterpiece, IMO, though I do like the earlier versions better (I'd love a '69 Plymouth Sport Suburban, if only for the name).

Another decent old fuselage mammoth worth saving (I hate the 'take it to the demo derby' crap), needs brakes and paint, basically, big deal:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Chrysler-NEW-YORKER-440-50-000-miles-DERBY-M- - - opar_W0QQitemZ380131330267QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item588197c8db&- - - _trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-2%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

uplanderguy

That '73 Town and Country is sort-of interesting for its stock condition, I guess.

A high-school buddy of mine's, Dad bought a leftover demo '72 Town and Country in late '72. Creamy beige with woodgrain; green cloth and vinyl interior. "Boat" doesn't describe it. It was truly a whale. It made the '73 Caprice Estate look positively svelte in comparison. In fact, my friend was lobbying for a '73 Chevelle Malibu Estate but his Dad bought the T&C instead.

It was a 440, but I don't remember it being particularly reliable. I was riding with my friend in it probably around '76 when all of a sudden it had no brakes. Luckily we were driving in an alley at the time!

I liked the '74 versions of Chrysler's big cars a lot better than that previous generation...I think because, especially in the Dodge, they had GM-like styling...peaked front fenders, humongous curved windshield with thin chrome-covered pillars, etc. I also liked the center glove box.

Bill P.

fintail

What's with that green so many of the fuselage cars came in? I swear, half of them were that color. My grandpa had one just like that, to replace his beloved 65 Chrysler. I gues he figured his 65 was so good, this new model must be better - it wasn't. My grandmother still tells stories about how that car would strand them at inopportune times, like on the way to the airport.

A lot of those cars did survive...there are always some on ebay, especially the later models like that black 78. I wonder if they were well-built, or just had owners who saved them as the last "real" full sized cars.

That wagon is impressive...I think the loop bumper models look the best with that body though.

Oh, and I just seem to have a knack for digging out the oddballs on ebay. A natural attraction. :shades:

lemko

...yellow 1972 Dodge Challenger with a white vinyl top.

Mr_Shiftright

Old Ford F-100 pickup, still workin'. This one had dual headlights and a lightning bolt logo on the front of the hood. '58???

lemko

...not necessarily obscure, but unusual on the streets of Philadelphia - a classic black London taxi.

Mr_Shiftright

That's pretty obscure. I wonder if it's the old type with the ghastly Perkins diesel or the newer ones with Toyota engines?

ghulet

.....we actually have quite a few of those London-style taxis, some of which are used as such, but the majority are used as hotel limos.

explorerx4

it rains almost every day.
did see a nice maroon MGB and an open Model T on on the road.
The poor guy was pulling over every time a car came by.
I would have run some interference for him, but I had to get to my service appointment.

kyfdx

I was at a hotel in Santa Monica, a couple of years ago.... They had a London taxi that they used for short trip shuttles..

kyfdx

On the way home.... in original faded yellow with mono-chromatic vinyl roof..

About 1970, as near as I can figure...

fintail

I remember I saw several of those the last time I was in Vegas, too

andre1969

The '69 Newport--very nice, but I never understand (from a 'collector' standpoint, though I like as a non-collector) why so many old Chrysler sedans in really nice shape exist versus other domestic brands.....seriously, I don't see as many old lower-line Buicks and Mercurys in this condition, but on eBay I see Chryslers all the time.

I've noticed that phenomenon, too. At first I was thinking that maybe Chryslers were bought by mostly older people, who held onto them longer and took better car of them, but I'm sure a lot of old people bought Mercurys and Buicks, too. Maybe Chrysler's clientele was still older, though.

Another possibility, is that maybe the Chryslers were just built better? Now I can't speak for a Mercury from that era, but having had a '67 Newport, '68 and '69 Darts, and a '67 Catalina and '69 Bonneville, I'd say the Chryslers were definitely built better. Oh sure, fit and finish wasn't quite as good, but the Mopars had a more solid feeling to them...like they were thicker and sturdier, somehow.

However, I also heard that the quality level went way down when Chrysler redesigned their full-sized C-bodies for 1969.

I also notice the same thing with the big '74-78 Mopars, that Newports and New Yorkers seem to have an excellent survival rate. I always figured that since they were unitized, rust would have gotten to them quicker than a body-on-frame GM or Ford full-sized car, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I've heard the '73-78 Fords and Mercurys were horrible rusters. Lincolns seemed to survive pretty well, though.

In the later 70's, when downsizing was all the rage, I think there was a group of holdouts that still wanted their full-sized cars to be mastodon-sized. And they tended to go for cars like the Lincolns, Newports, and New Yorkers, and they held onto them. I think a lot of people figured these cars would be worth something in the future, as a symbol of the last "true" full-sized cars, a product of a bygone era. Cheaper cars, like the LTD and Marquis, just got used up and discarded for the most part. And the mammoth Gran Fury and Royal Monaco only made it through 1977, on mainly taxi and police car sales. Dodge and Plymouth left the full-sized car market completely for 1978.