I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

fintail

Oh yeah, so today I saw a couple old MB...an old guy in a W116 in a very 70s light gold, who gave me a nod. And I saw the local 280SE cabrio, in a beautiful metallic blue....that guy gave me a wave as I was out in my old car.

I also saw an old granny in a pristine looking 85-87 Ciera, and I saw an 80-82 MalaiseBird in good condition...I can't say it looked nice though.

oregonboy

I'm certain that you could make a small fortune in the car restoration business.... providing that you began with a large fortune! :P

lemko

I believe Nissan tried something like this for 240Zs. The same thing happened. They got the best ones back first to rebuild, then they got rougher and rustier to the point it was no longer cost-effective to run such an enterprise.

texases

I think one problem with a large-scale rebuilder is they can't survive doing it on 'spec' - fixing up cars on the hope somebody will buy it. It comes down to value = purchase$ + restore$/2. No way to make money, if you're having to compete with someone going out and buying a 2-year old restoration for a fraction of the cost to do it.

Mr_Shiftright

Best way to run a resto shop is to get $10,000 increments from the owner, and when you've spent his 1st $10K, you ask for another increment, and keep going until the car is done.

Time + Materials is the only sane way to do it.

berri

IIRC there was a company in Ohio, maybe Cleveland, that used to take classic cars like a 69 Cutlass and modify them to current standards - disc brakes, upgraded AC, engines, trannies, etc. However it went out of business. I think the price came out to something like $20-25K. I don't know if the market wasn't big enough, it cost too much when you added in the price of the pre-restored car, or if old car people don't really want their vehicle changed from the old days?

andre1969

I remember hearing about that...I have an old car magazine that did a test of one of their cars back around 1990. I think it was a 1967 Cutlass. It wasn't C&D or Motortrend...I want to say it was "Automobile" that tested it?

Basically, this company would take body-on-frame GM intermediates from the 60's, update them with a pickup truck 350 and, IIRC, the 700R4 automatic transmission. They'd also dress the car up to look like a musclecar. For instance, if they started with a Cutlass, they'd put 4-4-2 badges and such on it, or GTO badges on a Tempest, etc.

As I recall, they wouldn't mess with Mopars, because the cars were unitized and not as quick and easy to restore. I think they did try to do one late 60's Fairlane that a customer specifically wanted, but again being unitized, that was a bigger job than a GM car.

I think they were sold as used cars, but came with a 1 year/15K powertrain warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

Pricing them so low like that probably required only choosing cars that had a huge aftermarket parts supply. So you could get crate engines, rebuit transmission, all the body panels you needed, upholstery kits, etc.

andre1969

Yeah, in retrospect, $20-25K does seem kinda cheap for what almost amounts to a "new" 1960's convertible. That was back around 1990, and I was a starving college kid driving an $1100 Dart, so it seemed like a lot of money to me at the time...

fintail

I doubt it could be duplicated today, now that so many of those cars have already been claimed by the cloners.

Also, 25K in 1990 car dollars would have to be at least 35-40K today, so I would think.

british_rover

$25,000.00 in 1990 had about the same buying power as $41,679.22 in 2009.

Annual inflation over this period was about 2.73%.

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

Assuming that calculator is correct anyway.

Higher then I thought it would be but I wonder how much they are using core inflation or the ridiculous inflation we have had over the past couple of years cause of rising food and energy costs.

michaellno

Swell, BR.

Now I'm using that website to figure out how much I've paid for my cars in 2009 dollars.

My first car, a '79 Sunbird bought in '82, is the equivalent of $8600 today. The '85 Honda I bought when I graduated from college in '85 is about $18K now.

I'll have to plug in the numbers for my dad's '70 Chevy pickup (bought new in 1970).

fintail

I think looking at cars based on market or model position/heirarchy, that might not be far off. By looking at features, cars are cheaper today. I'd say a 50% increase in most lower and middle level cars has been seen since then - granted, with more features.

Many higher level cars haven't ballooned so fast. Heck, a 500SEL in 1992 costs barely less than a S550 today. A 300E based around 40K in 1986 - while a base E350 is 48K today.

british_rover

Oh yes very true by features cars have gotten much cheaper. Back a couple of months ago I had some 70ish year old couple come in and look at Volvos.

They bought a 1996 850 for about 30,000. A base car no roof, cloth manual trans I don't think it even had heated seats. A 2009 S40 automatic with roof and heated seats stickered for around 30,000. They missed the 2009 S60 fire sale where the could have bought a leather, auto, roof, climate S60 for 25,000-26,000.

These were old school Volvo customers. They don't want an automatic, or leather they don't like leather. Who needs a sunroof they just leak.

How is the car the same price but with more equipment? What did they leave out? THey left out safety features didn't they? It is not as sturdy as our 850. It won't make 250,000 miles like ours will. Etc. etc. etc. This went on for the whole visit.

Very frustrating even after I showed them that the S40 had more safety equipment and was even more sturdy then the 850. Sue it was a bit smaller but they don't want an automatic or leather and only the S40 comes with a manual and cloth.

Everything has gotten more expensive in 13 years so have cars right? Ughh was so frustrating.

fintail

I think people who dealt with the high inflation in car prices in the 70s and 80s are always going to be put off by the trends of the past decade or so when it comes to higher line cars. It's a great time to be a customer. Most inflation in the past 15 years has been via speculation and artificial market action, especially in terms of energy and property.

Even for normal cars...I remember in 1992 my friend's parents bought a new Accord LX, normal equipment - stickered for 15K. Today a similar car might be 22-23K - a full 50% more - but it's a lot more car. A new Civic might even be closer in size, and won't be much more expensive in raw dollars.

fintail

Today's oddballs - in a used car rag I noticed a 1996 LR Disco with a 5-speed. That has to be uncommon.

And today I drove behind an old lady - I would guess to be 85 at least - in a maybe 76-77 Olds Cutlass sedan, the intermediate size. It was a period bronze color and looked brand new - it honestly could have passed for a restored car, but you knew it wasn't. Man, she drove slow, too. Usually a good 10 under the limit, had 6 or 7 cars lined up by the time the 2 lane road turned to 4.

andre1969

but nothing exactly exotic. First, I saw what I thought was a '79 T-bird, but something about the roofline didn't look right...instead of that basket handle look this one was more of a faux hardtop. Then, as it passed I saw that the rear was pure LTD-II. So I guess someone just put a T-bird front clip on an LTD-II. It looked like it was in pretty good shape and had a nice rumble as it passed, but I swear I could smell the exhaust for about 1/4 mile.

Then, a couple minutes later, I came up on an '80-82 Cougar XR-7. While I hated that generation of T-bird, I kinda liked the Cougar. They look really tipsy from the rear, though, like the butt is too big and hangs out too far over the wheels. Seemed to be in nice shape...2-tone dark beige over a lighter creme.

michaellno

I think people who dealt with the high inflation in car prices in the 70s and 80s are always going to be put off by the trends of the past decade or so when it comes to higher line cars.

Well, the first part of that statement is certainly true as it applies to my parents. They haven't owned a lot of cars in their life and for the most part have bought used. My dad, particularly, was appalled at how expensive cars had gotten over the years, and how much my sister and I paid for our new and used cars once we became adults.

But, eventually, mom wanted "one last new car" and dad relented. They were going to buy a Camry (they'd been Toyota folks, by and large, since the 70's), but dad did some research and they ended up getting a Hyundai Sonata - V6, GLS - for the same price as a 4-cyl Camry LE.

6+ year later, the car has maybe 30K on the clock, but they love it. Quiet, rides well, lots of features.

I think they paid something like $17K for the Sonata.

andre1969

As much as people complain about the high prices of cars these days, I definitely think they're a bargain, considering everything that goes into them. Just for kicks, I plugged in the $22,389 (total out the door price) I paid for my 2000 Intrepid, and it comes out to $28,718 today. Yet I imagine you could get a lot more car for $28-29K today.

My '57 DeSoto had a base price of $3,085 new, but as equipped probably stickered for more like $3800. Even on a mid-range car like that, stuff like the automatic, heater, radio, power steering, and power brakes was optional. Anyway, in 2009 dollars, that comes out to around $23,500 base price, or $29,000 as equipped.

I'd say the closest modern equivalent to my DeSoto, in terms of hierarchy, would be one of the mid-range Chrysler 300's with the 3.5. And for 2010, they start around $30K. So in hierarchy I guess not much has changed there, but there's a lot more content in the newer cars.

fintail

Depending on what wants, a very well equipped car can be had for average money, yeah.

I am still the most impressed by longterm pricing trends for higher line cars, influenced by the competition of new Japanese makes. That a new S-class costs virtually the same in raw dollars as one in 1992, or that an E-class costs a mere 20% more in raw dollars over a 24 year period...it's amazing.

michaellno

Yet I imagine you could get a lot more car for $28-29K today.

I hear you. For that price, you can get a V6 Mustang convertible, an Audi A3, a Saturn VUE XR V6 AWD, or any number of other vehicles. All with a full complement of safety features and creature comforts.

I plugged in the sales price of my dad's '70 Chevy pickup ($2900) and got something like $17-18K in 2009 dollars. Can you get a new long bed 1/2 ton 2WD pickup with a V8 for that price now?

EDIT - just checked the chevrolet.com site - a 2WD Silverado 1500 WT long bed with a 4.8L V8 and no other options has an MSRP of $22,130 but is $19,630 after the $2500 rebate. Figure that another $1500-2000 could be knocked off the MSRP price and you're in the ballpark with what dad paid 39 years ago.

bhill2

That price converter is sobering. I spent the equivalent of about $17.5 K for my '69 Volvo 142 with no options besides a radio, and about $27 K (gulp) for my '79 Scirocco, which was admittedly loaded.

texases

"and about $27 K (gulp) for my '79 Scirocco"

edit - equivalent$$ - OK, what did the Scirocco cost in '79$? I spent about $9,500 on an '83 GTI...

Just checked, that $9,500 is '83 is about $21k today. While a new GTI is $23k, it's way more car, for better and for worse, than that '83.

british_rover

saw it on Sunday in Litchfield.







Notice anything unusual?

fintail

Potentially less blind spot

michaellno

Looks like a South Carolina plate - which makes sense, in a perverted way, I suppose.

Can have the top down more in SC than in CT.

It is interesting, though.

Also, full window frame remains - much like the original FJ40.

british_rover

Nah those are one of the specialty CT plates. Save the pets, or whales or something.

I saw a concept car done up like that but didn't think they ever offered the conversion to the public. That can't be a good idea for the structure of the vehicle with the way those suicide rear doors are set up.

explorerx4

yes, it's one of those plates. i think the 3 letters at the end are DOG.
FJ Cruiser convertible. kind of reminds me of the VW Thing.

kyfdx

In '77, base price for a Scirocco was $5250... Pretty nicely equipped, compared to a domestic, but A/C was extra...

Unfortunately, it was too much for me...

ghulet

....I seem to remember my dad's '81 Scirocco 'S' was somewhere in the $9+ range, but I don't know for sure (it had a cassette, 5-speed, A/C but no sunroof--there weren't too many options available for that car, nothing like power windows/locks).

Last night I saw an '86-ish Toyota Cressida wagon. Can't be too many of those around.

bhill2

OK, what did the Scirocco cost in '79$?

I was figuring it at $9000, which is my best estimate of what it cost at the time. Like I said, it was loaded.

texases

That sounds about right. My first purchase after I got a job was a used black '79 Scirocco S, in '81. I overpaid, about $7500, but it sure looked and drove nice.

michaellno

Sorry for the double posting, but wanted to make sure that this message is seen by the right folks!

Was talking with my folks earlier today, and an issue came up that I'm certain can be addressed by the fine folks who frequent this forum (hey, how's that for alliteration?).

My dad owns, I believe you all know, a '70 Chevy pickup. Bought it new and currently has 138K on the body - the top half of the 350 was rebuilt at 90K. He dropped about $5-6K on it a few years ago to freshen everything up - new paint, new rubber seals, etc. Mom and dad figure he could sell it for north of $10K.

It's currently insured by AAA (along with their '03 Hyundai Sonata with 22K), but there is concern that if the unthinkable were to happen and it was totaled, the insurance company wouldn't give them fair market value for it - to them, it's a 40 year old truck with a replacement value of probably a couple thousand dollars.

So - my question is - how do they get 'collectible' insurance set up? I know there are specific companies that do this. Lots of restrictions in terms of miles, etc. and, IIRC, an appraisal is done.

The truck is parked outside of their house, in the driveway. He just spent $300 on some sort of alarm that requires a second key in order to start the truck.

Any information about the process involved and the companies who can do this would be greatly appreciated.

fintail

I use Hagerty for my old car - they have an "agreed" value where you set it, but they want to see photos. I have my old car insured for $5K, and my yearly premium is around $100. But, I think they want the car to live in a garage, and limited to 2500 miles/year....but I could be wrong.

I think a lot of normal insurance companies will insure classics, but you have to get a professional appraisal.

Mr_Shiftright

If the truck is not garaged chances are slim that it will qualify for collector car insurance.

Here are, in general, the basic requirements:

• Mileage: generally 2,500 miles per year maximum.
• No daily driving (commuting, etc.).
• No commercial use - of any sort, including advertising.
• Must be garaged; quality of garage is a consideration.
• Modified vehicles may qualify, but will be subject to higher rates.

But here are some companies anyway:

Insurance Providers
• American Collectors Insurance Inc.
498 Kings Highway N, P.O. Box 8343
Cherry Hill, NJ 08034
800-360-2277, 856-779-7212
www.AmericanCollectors.com

• American Hobbyist Ins. Agency
2501 SE Aviation Way
Stuart, FL 34996
800-395-4835, 772-287-9363
www.AmericanHobbyist.com

• Condon & Skelly
121 E. Kings Highway, Suite 203
Maple Shade, NJ 08052
800-257-9496
www.condonskelly.com

• Great American Insurance
Classic Collectors Program
P.O. Box 429569
Cincinnati, OH 45242-9569
800-252-5233
www.classiccollectors.com

• Grundy Worldwide
P.O. Box 1957
Horsham, PA 19044
800-338-4005
www.grundy.com

• Hagerty Classic Insurance
P.O. Box 87
Traverse City, MI 49685
800-922-405
www.hagerty.com

• J.C. Taylor Antique Automobile Ins. Agency
320 South 69th St.
Upper Darby, PA 19082
800-345-8290, 610-853-1300
www.jctaylor.com

• Sneed Insurance
PO Box 34698
Memphis, TN 38184-0698
800-619-7827
www.sneedinsurance.com
________________________________________

kyfdx

... gather round kids, and let me tell you about the '80s.... :surprise:

Anyway, in 1985, I bought a '67 BMW... Wanted to insure it for $6000.. just normal driving for a second car... wasn't really interested in collector only insurance, or the restrictions that come with it. My then current company wanted $1500/yr (in addition to my insuring my daily driver)..

Checked around.. State Farm beat my current rate by $200/yr, and added the '67 BMW for around $400/yr. (with the $6000 stated value coverage).. I've been with them ever since..

So.... it pays to check around..

Mr_Shiftright

It is imperative for the owner of a collectible car to be sure he is offered an AGREED UPON VALUE policy and not a STATED VALUE policy. The latter says quite clearly "we will pay UP TO the stated value". There's the loophole, and trust me, you *will* get screwed on a stated value policy, sometimes even *with* an appraisal on record. That only leaves you with the recourse of arbitration or a good faith law suit

kyfdx

I believe you... No idea which I had, as I never had a claim in the five years that I owned the car..

But, I did have to get an appraisal...

explorerx4

speaking of collector car insurance, my mustang is a 1991.
when am i eligible for cci? when the 2011 mustang is for sale?
everything is all set, except the age.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably not. You could call up the various insurers but generally it must be at least 25 years old AND have certain other characteristics.

andre1969

Well in Maryland at least, you'd be able to qualify for historic tags on January 1, 2011. They don't take into consideration when the model year starts, or the build date of your car, etc. Dunno about classic car insurance, though. You might want to contact Hagerty or one of the other companies and see if they'll insure it.

Mr_Shiftright

Hagerty probably won't. The insurers don't go by DMV rules, which, when it comes to "classic" cars, are pretty wiggy and totally indiscriminate. (a "classic" Geo Metro for instance). The specialty insurers discriminate as to what they will insure, and most 90s cars don't make the cut.

andre1969

I just checked Hagerty's website, and it does look like they get pickier as the cars get newer. For example, they'll insure anything up through 1969, as long as it meets their minimum value (used to be $3500 I think).

But in the 1970's, they do get pickier... http://www.hagerty.com/auto/vehicle_70s.aspx
Now, they did insure my '76 Grand LeMans, but it's also a coupe. I wonder if they would insure a 1976 Grand LeMans 4-door or wagon? I'm thinking about trying to add my '79 5th Ave to the policy, but don't know if they'll bite. Guess it's worth a try, though! If I could get it off my regular policy and onto my antique, it would save me about $275 per year.

In the 1980's and newer, they get pickier still... http://www.hagerty.com/auto/vehicle_exotic.aspx
Now they do have a picture of a Buick Regal Grand National on that site, so maybe it's possible that they'd insure something like a nice 20 year old, well-preserved Mustang convertible? I wonder if they'd insure a 1994-96 Impala SS?

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt it. It's a 90s car, and *very* few of those are collectible. A '91 Mustang convertible is a perfectly nice car, but very plentiful and bears no exceptional qualities in terms of being different from any other '91 Mustang convertible.

Also, in terms of value it is still acting like a used car----that is, unlike collectible cars, the older it is, the less it is worth. This is the opposite of what Hagerty is looking for.

As for the 94-96 Impala SS, I don't know. They definitely have collector car value, although everyone really wants the '96 model (floor shifter), so, being that this SS is different than every other Chevy, and since no other 90s American 4-door that I'm aware of is collectible---then yeah, maybe in that case.

It really has nothing to do with a car's "merit". Hagerty might reject some very nice cars while insuring some real dogs.

ghulet

.....the car has to be at least 25 years old to even register with DMV (Secretary of State, here) as an 'antique'.

andre1969

It used to be 25 years here in Maryland, too, but last year I inadvertently found out that it got changed to 20. One of our warehouse guys knew that I have old cars, and he asked me about getting antique tags. He said he had a 1986 Pontiac that he wanted to put tags on. First thing I told him was that the car had to be 25 years old. However, he said he heard that it was 20. So I looked it up online, and lo and behold!

Oh, and as for the 1986 Pontiac this guy had? Well, I was thinking it might be something along the lines of the stuff I go for...Parisienne, Grand Prix, Bonneville. Nope, wasn't any of those. Of all things, it was a T1000!

andys120

-A first gen Olds Aurora in the light metallic tan that was the signature color for the Aurora, this one was cosmetically perfect, at least while passing at 35 mph with good paint and no dings, price was $2,750, a good deal IMO if the car is as good mechanically as cosmetically.

-A VW Rabbit, ca. mid-late70s two-door, black, good but not perfect body, alloy wheels. It looked much better than the usually wretched survivors of the first gen of FWD VeeDubs.

And not for sale but seen driving around, a late Studebaker Lark convertible, good but far from perfect metallic red body and (white) top and a '65-ish Falcon four door. Some dings and dents, rode a little nose high.

andre1969

A first gen Olds Aurora in the light metallic tan that was the signature color for the Aurora

Whenver I think of a first-gen Aurora, I always picture one in a pale, silvery blue or a dark green. I always loved the style of them, but a lady at work had one and let me drive it, and I was a bit disappointed. For one thing, I thought it would be bigger inside, but another thing that bugged me was the handling. It just seemed a bit numb and wallowy...I've had cars that are worse, but this just didn't look like a car that was supposed to handle like that! Still wouldn't be enough to scare me away from one, as I do still find the style very sexy. I hear they're expensive to repair when they break, though. Much more than a Riviera or Park Ave.

tjc78

Whenver I think of a first-gen Aurora, I always picture one in a pale, silvery blue

Too funny, I know a couple with a first year model with a whopping 13K miles on it. Garaged since new. Its that silvery blue you mention with a teal--ish interior. I drove it once and it was STS power with LeSabre handling. Worked for me!

michaellno

I've got a co-worker who owns a 2nd gen Aurora with the V8. I was never a fan of the first generation Aurora .. I'd heard that they were quite small inside, as Andre noted.

Before I bought the L300, I took a look at the gen II Aurora with the "ShortStar" V6. Was a bit north of my budget, unfortunately, but I did like the looks of it.