I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

omarman

Why didn't someone tell him that if you are collecting 2nd Gen Camaros, you should stop after 1972?

Nah, his only problem right now is locating a 1974 Z/28 for his collection. And maybe a SD 455 Firebird too-unless I missed seeing one there already.

There's more 70's Detroit iron in that guy's garage than is left in all of Ypsilanti.

Mr_Shiftright

Subtlety was never Camaro's strong suit I see.

explorerx4

one thing i had not noticed before was how much of the front end styling was borrowed from the Vega.

Mr_Shiftright

I kinda liked the styling of the very first and very last Camaros and not much in between.

andre1969

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually prefer that 1974 restyle, on both the Camaro and the Vega. I just prefer the more slicked-back look with a proper bumper to that more Ferrari-esque style. Too bad the performance got cut in those later years.

fintail

Today's oddities: Pontiac 6000 wagon, early 60s VW pickup - restored and out in the rain, MB W220 S65 AMG.

uplanderguy

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually prefer that 1974 restyle, on both the Camaro and the Vega.

Me, too. On the Vega, I think the earlier ones' bumpers and taillights are too tiny, doll-house tiny!

On the Camaro, I like the wraparound taillights on the '74 better, too. I really like the '75 when they made the rear window wrap-around. Makes you wonder why they didn't do that sooner, as it looked so natural on the car.

Bill

kyfdx

Hmmm... I think maybe that's a function of age... The younger you were, the less the "big-bumper" look bothered you..

When I was in high school in the early-mid '70s, most of the desirable cars were '60s muscle.. The 5-mph crash bumpers were not popular... On top of that, they changed the horsepower calculation in '72. So, even though the engines weren't really any different, the horsepower numbers dropped by about 1/3.. Hard on a guy's masculinity...

After seeing a picture of that Z-28 above... sticking with my original statement... Quit after '72

hpmctorque

The biggest part of that ~1/3 decline in horsepower did indeed come from the change in the way they calculated horsepower, but a significant part was due to the fact that real power actually declined. Beginning with the '68 model year, ever stricter pollution laws went into effect, Compression ratios kept getting reduced, as well as a host of other changes to meet pollution requirements that seemed to get tighter by the year. The low point may have been 1974.

For the '75 model year car makers adopted catalytic converters, with a few notable exceptions (Honda's CVCC, Volvo, BMW, Mercedes, American Motors and some Mopars) and they were able to retune the engines for more power, while reducing emissions still further. Then, in the latter '70s- around '82, horsepower generally went on a mild decline, as pollution lows took a further toll. Beginning in '83-'84, and as fuel injection and other technologies were adopted, horsepower generally started to climb, and it's been increasing ever since.

To make matters worse for performance, cars kept getting heavier, to meet new safety regulations. So, the combination of greater weight and reduced horsepower and torque, was a real performance killer.

The good news, which isn't mentioned frequently among us car enthusiasts, is the health benefits we all gained (especially those of us who live in or near cities).

Today it's virtually impossible to find an underpowered car. Some may not be especially fast, but they're no longer underpowered, as many were in the '70s and early '80s.

Mr_Shiftright

As someone who lived through this transition, from "muscle to mousepower", I recall quite clearly that we all regarded 1975 as the end of the world as we knew it.

It is NO co-incidence, that the entire hobby of car collecting, of auctions, classic car magazines, etc., arose and blossomed from the ashes of 1975. Prior to that, car collecting was a very small enterprise and most people didn't really care about 60s cars or preserving them.

People realized in the late 70s and 80s, quite rightly IMO, that there wasn't diddley worth collecting between 1975-1985 (more or less) and that the 50s and 60s cars might never be seen again.

As it turns out, collectors were right and wrong. We did see the return of performance cars, but man, it was a desert out there for at least a decade.

Probably the most humiliating thing to watch was the "Mustang II" and the late 70s Corvettes.

kyfdx

Preach, brother!!

My first new car was a '77 Mustang Cobra II.. It's only saving grace was the trusty 302 V-8, though smogged and constrained by a tiny carb, and generating only 135 hp (not a typo), it was still very torquey and coupled with the 4-speed manual, pretty darn quick (through the first two and a half gears..).

But, after suffering the abuses of a young driver, it was just about shot, after only 48K miles... Though unemployed, I sold it, and gave the money to my girlfriend, so she could get another car, after her engine died..

I think this is a pretty typical story of the late '70s... I blame it all on the crappy cars.. :surprise:

omarman

After seeing a picture of that Z-28 above... sticking with my original statement... Quit after '72

Ha! Too funny. I like the first gen F-body best, but, c'mon! I still liked the '74 Z/28. And the Super Duty Firebirds, too. That collector needs to keep looking for those at least. He already has so many versions of everything else.

There was a car lot next to the store where I was working part time in the summer of 1974 and they took in a really sharp, almost-new, '74 Z with silver paint and red interior, 4-speed, etc. I think they had it priced at $3,799 or $3,999? Something like that, under $4K any way. It didn't stay on the front line for more than a couple days until it sold.

Still your post made me think of the styling changes GM made to the second gen F-body in the late 70s which probably boosted sales when the engine hp couldn't.

For example, remember when you first saw the "batmobile" Firebird restyle for model year 1977? It was a pretty dramatic look on the street which made earlier second gen Firebirds look instantly old. Pontiac offered a good W72 400 engine option too, but only in the F-body. Argh! (Maybe they also used the W72 for just one year in the Can Am?)

A year later, the 1978 Camaro restyle gave a smooth, popsicle shape to the front end which also dated every earlier version of that same generation Camaro.

This pic (1977 Z on top, 1978 below) may not capture the full effect of "old vs. new" look on the street back then, but it really did seem to boost sales.

I wonder if it was the "batmobile era" restyle which inspired our Florida collector to collect so many variants of those late 70s F-bodys?

Maybe he might make a good Edmunds interview/feature?

<img src="http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a123/hoyvin/77_78Z28.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"

martian

Kind of macabre, but I seem to see a lot of old 1950's hearses in rural areas. I know that hearses were popular with startup rock bands (you could put a lot of amplifiers, speakers, etc. in the back).
However, they handle awfully and drink gasoline like a pig.
Most were Cadillac-based, but I have seen a few based upon Buicks, Chryslers, etc.-even once (in Brazil) based on a VW minibus!
Does anybody collect these things? Or are the morbid associations too great? :confuse:

imidazol97

And Pontiacs

Mr_Shiftright

Hey, this is America. I bet there's even a Hearse Owners Club somewhere.

People do collect them, sometimes as part of commercial vehicle collections, museusm, or for movie rentals (the Godfather?), but they aren't worth much on the open market given the costs of restoration.

I would imagine they stay in service a long time. After all, customer complaints are nil. :P

fintail

Yep, there are several hearse clubs, and there's some big national group of hearse and flower car etc enthusiasts, but I forget the name.

If I had a big collection, a fintail hearse wouldn't be out of place

This one has better fins:

andre1969

I know where there's a '62 Pontiac hearse and a '61 Pontiac ambulance in a junkyard. Unfortunately, they're probably too far gone to salvage. Neat looking cars, though. I thought the '61 especially would have been a cool car to try saving.

I think my dream hearse, if there ever was such a thing, would be a '61-62 Cadillac, with maybe a '57-58 coming in a close second. A '57-58 DeSoto hearse would really be cool, but they're about as common as unicorns, three-headed rattlesnakes, and rust-free '76 Volares.

As for hearse clubs, I think the biggest one is the Professional Car Society of America. They cover hearses,flower cars, ambulances, etc. Probably limos too, I'm guessing?

berri

I know I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually prefer that 1974 restyle, on both the Camaro and the Vega.

I liked the early 70 and a half RS Camaro best. However, I think I'm probably a minority in that I liked all of these 70's Camaros better than the first gen.

berri

Old hearses are kind of neat. I actually like the ambulance versions even more though.

Mr_Shiftright

That fintail hearse would be great with a Mercedes V-12 in it from a 600SL.

andre1969

A few years ago, this '57 DeSoto Firesweep ambulance showed up at the Carlisle Mopar Nats...


the owner let me sit behind the wheel. I thought it was really cool, although the driving position was really tight, due to the partition inside, right at the B-pillar.

I guess most paramedics back in the day had short legs? :P

berri

That DeSoto is so art deco it belongs on Miami's south beach! Love the pix!

uplanderguy

When the '70 1/2 Camaro and Firebird came out, the car magazine critics hailed it as the best-styled car in years and highly futuristic with its lack of quarter windows and other touches. I thought it was pretty cool. What sucks is those folks who bought a "'70" Camaro in fall '69 or early calendar '70 and when it was trade-in time, it was considered a '69!

The worst feature about the second-generation Camaro, IMHO, was the ridiculous passenger space in the rear seat (no wonder it didn't need quarter windows!) and the glovebox-sized trunk! When other teens my age wanted one of those, I wanted a Chevelle or Monte Carlo instead! I was an 'old soul' even then!

Bill

fintail

Today, driving on a quiet residential street, the one oncoming car was a very clean white 65 Pontiac LeMans 2 door HT...didn't look over restored, just very well cared for. No other traffic in the area, in a neighborhood of mostly 50s houses. I was in the fintail...if not for a few parked cars, it could have been a 'time warp' kind of moment.

Also saw a Model A town sedan in a weird green color, and a Ferrari 360.

tjc78

Here is an interesting color choice, anyone know what show its from?

omarman

What sucks is those folks who bought a "'70" Camaro in fall '69 or early calendar '70 and when it was trade-in time, it was considered a '69!

You kidding? Late 1969 Camaros sold+titled new as 1970 models? Impossible. We'll need concrete proof in the form of Camaro sellers pushing them on ebay. Link please?

Yours truly,
1964.5 Mustang

PS-Just kidding. No offense about the Camaro thing. I'm a Mustang fan who accepts that the original pony car was a 1965 thing.

fintail

Saw a Mercury Marauder, the 21st century version.

jrosasmc

Fintail, you may like (or cringe) this story I have - last night, I decided to order a pizza from Domino's and have it delivered. When it arrived at my home, I was waiting at the front door, and to my surprise, the delivery man's car was a Mercedes W123 300TD! I've seen a lot of pizza delivery cars used in my day, but never a Mercedes, let alone a diesel wagon.

It was obvious that this particular car was not well-cared for, as it was blowing black smoke out of the exhaust, had dirty rims, and had pizza boxes all over the back seat. I paid for my dinner, and also asked the pizza guy (a younger gentleman) what year the 300TD was. He said it was an '84. I asked him, "How do you manage to get from place to place driving that old car?" His reply: "I try my best." :P

Mr_Shiftright

You'll find that about 95% of all old Mercedes 300Ds or TDs are clapped out wrecks, due to the Second Law of Old Cars --

"formerly expensive cars that have depreciated to affordability by pizza delivery persons, will die a horrible death".

fintail

Yeah, I like it more than cringe. It's a heading for 30 year old workhorse likely with a vinyl interior and a clattery engine, and probably has 300K+ miles on it. It will soldier on for a while before it finally checks out. Those cars were engineered for that exact fate.

andre1969

no idea on the tv show, but it's a cool looking rig. I wouldn't mind taking my final ride in it!

tjc78

It was from "Six Feet Under." The high school aged daughter of funeral home owner drove it.

As for my final ride... I'd prefer a Lincoln.

texases

"I'd prefer a Lincoln"

Here you go!

tjc78

LOL!!

ghulet

I haven't read past your post, so I'm probably slow on the uptake here, but isn't this the Claire-mobile from 'Six Feet Under'?

I LOVED that show. I remember Claire driving through the funeral home parking lot (or maybe her HS parking lot?) people standing around in the way of pictured hearse, and her bellowing out the window, "OTHER PEOPLE EXIST!!". Classic.

ghulet

...i the lot a VERY nice-condition '90-ish Audi 100 Quattro, in the cool-new-for-that-year Pearl White, with the lovely factory lace alloys. Also saw a really horrible late-70s Nova coupe.

tjc78

I LOVED that show.

Yeah me too. When the hearse subject came up I figured I would post a pic.

stickguy

on my way to work (on an actual highway) an 80's something 99 (I think, pretty sure wasn't a 900). white 3 door, didn't look t be in half bad shape.

Mr_Shiftright

I stumbled on a factory original 300 SL Gullwing Workshop Manual--the one shipped to dealers, and I snagged it. I wonder what it's worth? Very good shape! :shades:

explorerx4

I would start by asking Dr Z!

Mr_Shiftright

Ah, Dieter Zetsche? He'd probably want to steal it from me. :P

hpmctorque

Well, the supply of Gullwing shop manuals is small, but, then, so is the demand. That tells us nothing, of course, but is there any way of finding out the price(s) on previous sales of these manuals?

fintail

Where did you find that?

Gullwing material is sought after even by those who don't own the cars. Could be worth in the low four figures, if it's that huge book...several hundred at the least, no doubt.

tjc78

I think Fintail may be right this that manual could be worth some bucks...

Here is just a factory parts manaul on Ebay $295.00

I searched completed listings but didn't see any repair manuals.

lemko

Here's an ambulance for ya!

lemko

...sporting more bondo and primer than sheetmetal and paint - a 1976 Datsun B210 wagon on Tabor and Levick in NE Philly that looks like it may have once been dark blue. Most of these were eaten away by rust 25 years ago around here.

Also spotted was a silver 1976 Cadillac Coupe DeVille for sale on Longshore Street in the same neighborhood which piqued my interest until I saw it too was infested with the dreaded tinworm. Sad. It was the same silver as my 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille and had the same hubcaps too! These cars tended to rust below the trim for the vinyl top and along the side trim on the rear quarters. The leading edge of the hood is also susceptible for some reason.

hpmctorque

"...Could be worth in the low four figures..."

I suppose the cost of replicating this manual would be one parameter on the value of Shifty's manual, although there's probably a value associated with authenticity.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah I saw that. I've seen Gullwing manuals but they are factory or club reprints. This is an original.

Maybe what I should do is go on eBay with a high reserve and see how much it bids up to. If they don't bid the reserve I can always contact the highest bidder and make a deal. It seems like a good way to test the market, don't you think.

I also have an engine assembly manual for the Porsche 356 Carrera engine---the twin cam motor. There are very few....*very* few....technicians left who can build this motor competently. It's a roller-bearing crank.

Also a Gullwing Parts Manual. It's in good shape but some pages are loose. Seems to me it could easily be re-glued.

hpmctorque

"...It seems like a good way to test the market..."

I can't think of a better way to do it with a single ad.

How about also putting an ad in Hemmings after you've tested the market on Ebay?

Mr_Shiftright

Also a good idea. Really I don't have to get top top dollar, since I got them cheap so I'm not greedy. I'd like a fair price, and also to see them go to a good use. I'd rather not see them in some locked glass case in Geneva, but rather in a restoration shop.