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I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)
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Tricky plan to fly but fun!
Well, of course, due to production volume, but our NOS situation is the best out there...especially for an independent. Ask around to anybody that has a Stude and also has other old cars.
I agree that Studebakers are undervalued and part of the reason is that most people wrongly believe that parts are unavailable. We don't need as many types of parts.
As for parts, you'd be up the creek for a lot of parts on these cars. By definition, NOS supply grows smaller and smaller each year, and you know what that means. Also, labor costs go up and up, as does the cost of materials, and since the Studebaker values are pretty stagnant, more and more of the more "common" cars will fall out of the "worth restoring" category, and thus be scrapped. Aftermarket suppliers who are actually re-creating parts, like say Studebaker auto glass, have to charge a lot more than Chevy people because they sell so much less of it.
You see this very phenomenon in the number of restored 30s Fords (a lot) vs. Oldsmobiles (very few)
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/106421363.html
But, all kidding aside, stamping out a few body panels does not mean an "aftermarket".
An "aftermarket" is one where you can by every part for the car--this includes interior door panels in your color preference, headliners, reproduced exterior and interior trim, right down to the logos and nameplates, any lens you want, all mechanical parts, and even a new engine delivered rebuilt in a crate to your house. It also includes modification kits, including disk brake swaps, new front ends, varieties of differential gearing, wheels, tires, transmission mod kits, dual-exhaust kits, fuel injection conversions, etc. In *some cases* you can order an entire new body.
This level of support simply does not exist with Studebakers, or Ramblers. It's the domain of cars like Chevy, Corvette, MG, VW, Ford Model A, etc.
You can diligently "scrounge" for what you need for a Studebaker, but you can't order it all up from a catalog.
Exterior logos and nameplates? Check. Studebaker International, plus some NOS
Lenses? Check. Studebaker International.
New engine? Nope, but actually some NOS blocks still available in the original crates. Studebaker International.
Disk Brake Swaps? Yep. Turner Brake.
Dual Exhaust Kits? Yep. Don Simmons Exhaust
Fuel Injectors? Got me on that one.
But I did check some of those out...neat stuff...but the vendors are few and far between, the prices are stiff and there are huge gaps in what's available and what isn't.
In a way, you prove the point I was trying to make, I think.
Large aftermarket = stiff competition + diverse inventory.
And NOS parts aren't really part of the "aftermarket" definition. I call that "the parts hoard" to denote that it is not a replenishing supply.
My Avanti was worth $1,600 in 1971 and $3,000 in 1982, but the sales price of the Avanti more than covered the total purchase price of all four of my Studebakers, including the 1955 Commander I still own that is now worth $10,000-$12,000.
Between 1968 to the present date, I always got to my destination except for one time when the Commander got towed. I rebuilt the motor in the Avanti once and the Commander once. I pulled the engines out myself and put them back in after they were rebuilt. I never had any problem getting parts or service at reasonable prices.
The friend of mine who drove to South Bend in 2007 took the entire body off the frame and brought the frame on wheels to the annual Studebaker meet at La Palma Park in Anaheim. That year he won the award for "car with the most potential" and the next year he brought the whole car restored and won the "most improved" award.
Taking a good-looking Studebaker out for a drive is like taking a puppy for a walk; everyone is friendly toward you. People who know what it is have a story to tell about a friend or relative who owned one. Those who do not know what a Studebaker is want to know more. When I get to a four-way stop intersection, people usually wave me through and let me let me go first. At corners I can see people saying the word "Studebaker" when they see it. Driving a Studebaker is about as much fun as you can have (with all your clothes on).
The bottom line is that if you buy a Studebaker for a reasonable price sell it in about 10 years in as good a condition as when you bought it, you will probably have a lot of fun and make a little profit on the deal. While you own one, you should find that are usually a reasonable size and they get good gas mileage. Things break from time to time, but you always get to your destination (Almost always. . . I did get towed once in 42 years)
That is why I said Studebakers are “undervalued.”
But there is a kind of irony in your comments, because the "undervalued" quality is the curiosity value---people just don't see old Studebakers as often as they do say Chevelles, and so they notice them, and notice YOU. Also Studebakers don't generally look like GM or Ford cars. They stick out.
on the other hand, this "curiosity" appeal is also what keeps them from being worth as much as a comparable Big Three Car. They are also a very hard car to sell at a good price.
The fact that they are oddities keeps them out of the American mythology--out of the "legendary" status that cars like Corvettes, GTOs, "Hemis" enjoy.
I don't mean to pick on Studebaker for this novelty factor---the same is true of other "orphans" of that era.
I got lots of attention with my GT Hawk, which I very much enjoyed.
I always thought the '58 Pontiac was a nice looking car except for two details...the headlights that had sort of a bulging, swollen look, and the side trim seemed a bit heavy-handed. Nowhere as overdone as an Olds or Buick, though!
The Studebaker Driver's Club was founded in 1964 when Studebaker was still building cars. Studebaker stopped building cars in South Bend in 1963, but you could still buy an Avanti with a Chevy engine in the same building where Studebaker built them until 1987. Unlike Packard, which only produced a V-8 for two years (1955-56), the Studebaker V-8 was in production for thirteen years (1951-Spring of 1964). Without taking the time to count them, I am confident in saying that far more than 500,000 Studebaker V-8s s were built. They built the Hawk body until the tools and dies were wearing out.
Packard has its own automatic transmission. Studebaker used Borg-Warner transmissions that were used on other cars. They also used Delco and Prestolite electrical systems, Carter carburetors, Stewart Warner gauges and Bendix Brakes. Whatever Studebaker did not build, they used parts the Big Three were using.
I have been driving Studebakers since 1968 and parts have never been a problem. They sell for less than most of the Big Three, but they started out selling for so much less than the Big Three. They are affordable, collectible cars that give great fun for the dollar.
I would think there would be any number of impossible parts to find on your car, unless you found them used and restored them. There are even impossible parts for Corvettes and T-Birds, so I can't imagine why your car would be spared the inevitable "unobtainium".
If someone had a front end collision on a '55 Speedster, for instance, well lots of luck finding all the parts. You can, eventually, but you won't be ticking off a box in a catalog---that's my point.
Everything is harder to do on an orphan car, obviously.
But...... on the other hand, the "hunt" is often more fun than the actual finishing of the car--at least I found it to be so---and I've owned some obscure cars.
It stands to reason----fewer survivors, more hassle to restore and more expense.
The Kaiser you mention was a rather modern looking vehicle for the early 50's, but they didn't have the money to do much updating, or modernizing of the drive train.
I think Studebaker and Hudson both have fairly active owners clubs which may help if you want to restore one.
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My car's a Lark Daytona and not a '55 Speedster as used in your one example, but I can think of two pieces of trim I couldn't find for my car from a catalog...the rest could still be bought NOS, including sheetmetal. And there's a lot left. I can still buy taillights, nameplates, backup light lenses, grille, bumpers, wheel covers (repros),hood ornament (repros) headlight surrounds (back to NOS)...I'm talking everything. The only parts that are very hard to find are the 'butter knife' trim on the rear quarters, and one side (only!) of the rear ribbed trim below the trunk lid.
As I mentioned earlier, there are still NOS doors, rear quarters (although supply of these for two-doors is decreasing), trunk lids, hoods, sheetmetal front-end grille surround, sheetmetal rear panel, still available and cheap for my '63...add stacks of NOS front fenders available for my '64. I'd pick NOS over repro when available, any day of the week. There is a vendor still selling NOS Stude seat upholstery and door panels as well as the two vendors who specialize in Stude interiors, making perfect reproductions. There is also a third vendor making 'close' reproductions for various Studes at lower prices.
WAGONS: I really like old wagons. I could see in the near future where 50s and early 60s wagons will meet or exceed the value of coupes. They already do that with 4-door sedans.
http://www.studebaker-intl.com/
Also, post on over at www.studebakerdriversclub.com. You will repeatedly see guys who "came over" from some other make of old car and are amazed at the parts situation here.
It's kind of a comment on Studebaker, don't you think, that some of the body panels fit an 11 year time span! Now that's budget-cutting.
Anyway, multiply that catalog by 100 X and you'd have the Big Three aftermarket. There's really no comparison IMO.
One caveat on repro parts, applying to all makes, is that more often than not they simply do not replicate the quality of the originals. I can often spot a repro part pretty easily on a restoration.
this is why NOS restorations are valued higher, of course, and often cost a great deal more to do.
On some Hemi cars, for instance, you'll pay $4000 for an air filter. (that's not a typo).
(1) We have a good Driver's Club that began in 1964 with a membership of approximately 13,000, many who own more than one Stude, (2) Studebakers were seen as collectible cars long before production ceased, (3) Studebaker did not have the yearly model change-over of the the Big Three, (4) Studebaker made a lot of parts and kept them in South Bend when they moved all production to Canada, (5) Studebaker remained in the parts business until approximately 1972 and then sold to Newman & Altman who produced the Avanti, (6) there was an excess of space when the factory closed so storage was cheap and so,(7) there was no need to throw out old parts to make room for new parts (8) the Avanti remained in production for so long after Studebalker quit making cars and trucks. (9) Studebaker made more vehicles for a longer time than any of the independents except Nash-Rampler-AMC-Jeep Eagle (10). There were so many types of Studebakers . . .Avanti, Hawks, 2 and 4 door sedans, 2 and 4 door station wagons, Packardbakers, convertibles, pick-up trucks, delivery trucks, tractor trucks, military trucks, Weasels and postal Zip vans. You never know what types of vehicles are going to show up at a Studebaker meet.
I agree with that. I know it's a personal preference, but I think they did way more with what they had, than AMC in the same time period.
Only the C&K bodies (Hawks) had the same front and rear fenders for eleven years. Hood, doors, and decklids changed from '53 to '64. Such is the beauty of that design for '53, that it could still look pretty in '64. The '64 Hawk in a dark color with a vinyl half-top, is my favorite Stude of all. I don't know if you could sell a dolled-up '53 much-of-anything-else in '64! (Although, the '62 Corvette is a "C1" and it's my favorite 'Vette.) I love the '64 Hawk's long hood, short deck, open rear wheel well, clean-trimmed look and pseudo-classic-style "radiator".
No one in my family owned a Stude, but I credit our small but strong hometown dealer, Carl E. Filer Co., for my interest. They were owned by the same family for forty years and there were always a good number of Studes around our small town when I was growing up. I've become good friends with Carl Jr. and family, although they no longer live in the same town (neither do I).
Er....not while I was alive at the time....it would be the rare car indeed that was viewed as collectible while it was still being made (even today this would be more hype than reality)...and I never got any premium price for my Studebakers when I sold them in the 70s. We all took a beating, believe me. Consider us the "fallen" who died so that you all might collect at a later date. :P
Very few people in America cared about old cars until the 1980s, when the hobby took off. All you had before that was Model A hobbyists and people collecting some of the magnificent heavy cars of the 1930s. Everyone else was modifying, racing, or junking old cars.
That makes me think of a line in an old monster movie from 1959 called "The Giant Gila Monster" (which was really a normal-sized Gila monster stomping around on a HO scale train set village). There was an old geezer who was driving around in a stock model A and the local kids were pestering him to buy it. He said something like "I paid $500 fro this car when it was new, and a couple months ago it wasn't worth 50 bucks. Now you're offering me a hundred. Tell ya what, once we get back up to $500, then we'll talk!"
I was fascinated by older cars ever since I was a little kid in the 1970's. But back then, even the people who thought the older cars were cool, for the most part, just bought them, drove them around, and used them up, then tossed them aside once they were no longer any good.
I still wince at the thought of my old man abandoning his '65 Impala SS395 with the 425 hp setup along a desolate country road when it threw a rod. That was sometime in the early 70's...I had been born, but was too young to remember the car. Back then, it was just an old car that wasn't worth much, and I'd imagine that once the oil embargo hit, it became worth even less.
Page 8 of my web site shows the streets full of Studebakers in South Bend outside the Studebaker and Avanti II factory during the annual meet of the Studebaker Drivers Club in 1970 or 1971. http://stude.net/rollingalong.html Page 3 of my web site shows the Lark we took to the George Harrison Concert for Bangladesh on August 1, 1971. I went to the Studebaker meet with two friends that year before we went to New York.
I am certain of the approximate date because my yellow 1960 Lark is in the top row image on the right and because I took my Avanti in the summer of 1972. I joined the Studebaker Driver's Club in July 1968. Some of us have been at this a long time.
It is a good thing that Studebaker did not do model change-overs every year. That is why the Model A Ford Club and Volkswagen beetle club have so many cars that are still running.
You won't for instance, find too many SF Giants fans in Texas, but a lot in San Francisco.
I think Model As have so many cars still on the road because of the aftermarket that existed even as the As were still being made. In other words, the As and the VWs were kept from being junked because there were many many alternatives to the dealership.
You could accessorize your A or your T from catalogs. There were literally thousands of products made for these cars even when they were new.
Also, they were very simple machines.
Also they are incredibly historic vehicles in automotive mythology, perhaps the two most significant cars in the world.
But yes, you are right, if a car doesn't change too much you can cannibalize many other models to get what you need---or, after the factory closed and an aftermarket sprang up, it helped the vendors a lot that they could make a part that fit so many different years. If every model year were different, perhaps it wouldn't pay to make parts or you'd have to charge a bundle for them. So yes the same body panels for 11 years---- That is certainly an advantage.
These aren't all local cars. It was the national meet of the Studebaker Drivers Club in 1971. Those cars are from people from all around the country.
I was only 13 then and not into Studes, but I can imagine a good number of them availed themselves of the factory parts depot in town, still run by the Studebaker Corporation over five years after auto manufacturing ceased.
I can't find an online link to that old interview, but IIRC Kenz reminisced about working at a Colorado Ford dealer (starting in the 20s?) and hopping up stock Fords for customers who came back to the dealer looking for "more pep" in the high altitude driving environment. By the late 30s Bill Kenz and Roy Leslie opened up their own V-8 shop.
Anyway, Kenz reminisced about saving up to buy two new cars while working at the Ford dealer (both Model A Fords I think) and was able to completely modify them with aftermarket parts before they ever left the dealer's garage! He spoke of 2-speed axles, ohv conversions, Fisk "Red Top" tires, etc, to hop up both of his brand new cars before busting bugs out on the road.
Apparently, the popularity of those prewar Fords generated a significant aftermarket industry for parts and performance tuning while they were in production and which has never went away. That was an amazing development which both predated and no doubt facilitated the car buff following which later sprang up around those same cars.
In other words Ford's prewar success transformed a horse and buggy world into an automotive age, which in turn afforded the pastime of car collecting for everyman. Can't really have one without the other, no? Isn't the Studebaker following just occupying a smaller niche created by the "grand daddy of them all?" The economies of scale at Ford's River Rouge changed the world like nothing ever wrought in South Bend.
btw, here's a link to an excerpt from Gears, Grease and Guitars featuring Roy Leslie's son Ron describing the K+L legacy. Even in post war 1950, Kenz+Leslie were the first hot rodders at Bonneville to crack 200-mph. Powered by 2 modified Ford flatheads! Haha! What a life those guys had...hope someone wrote it all down somewhere.
The Studebaker National Museum in South Bend has the Studebaker carriage that President Lincoln rode to Ford's Theater in April 1865. Studebaker was already well known for building transportation vehicles at that time because of the wagons it built for the Union the American Civil War and was definitely world's largest mass producer of land vehicles ten years later.
Who is the "grand daddy of them all/"
The Abbot Downing Company of Concord NH established 1827, builders of the legendary Concord Stagecoach.
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In 1955 Robert Frank bought a used 1950 Ford and drove from New York to Dearborn Michigan. In a letter to his wife he wrote, “Ford is an absolutely fantastic place this one is God’s factory and if there is such a thing – I am sure that the devil gave him a helping hand to build what is called Ford’s River Rouge Plant.” Ford even allowed Frank to take a few pics.
I'm quoting Frank and pointing out his work "The Americans," because I'm not trying to polish the image or history of Henry Ford or the American Dream of the fabulous fifties. Robert Frank was an agitator but still...I'm satisfied that his grainy pics or gritty text are no more unfair than casting a skeptical eye at the choices we all make in life.
And I won't quibble over who was the king of "land vehicles" from 1865-1875. Studebaker was a wagon master long before Henry built station wagons.
River Rouge, my friend, changed the world when its construction began nearly 100 years ago and the ripples are still shaking the world for good or bad. We've never been the same.
Aside from perfecting mass-production (prior to the Model T, building 5,000 cars a year was considered an enormous accomplishment), and perfecting interchangeability of parts (invented by the gunmakers such as Colt), it expanded the universe of millions of people and made "every man a King" -- at least in terms of his own royal carriage.
From the time of the Trojan War, or before, all through the ensuing 30 or so centuries, mankind drove himself at the speed of the horse, about 15 mph on average. The American covered wagon was essentially the same as used by Roman soldiers.
Henry Ford changed all that in a few years time.
Pretty amazing.
I was just getting a good word in about some hometown guys that had a fair impact on transportation in their day. I used to work in a building that is the last remnant of the Abott-Downing factory that's been converted to offices and stores. In case you were wondering, though built in New England, the Concord Coach is the classic stagecoach seen in Western Movies and re-enactments. Like the Conestoga and the Model T it was used around the world.
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Of the independent automakers that went bust in the 1950s only Packard had a similar history, but that history began approximately 50 years after Studebaker. Ford may be close to its 100th anniversary, but that has not happened yet. The Avanti went on for another 30+ years and also has a unique history because it keeps on being reborn.
Studebaker built up a lot of good will as a result of its long history in South Bend and as a result, there were thousands of Studebaker owners who joined the Driver's Club in the 1960s and adopted the motto, "We Would Rather Fix than Switch" and kept on driving them.
That is why I take issue with comparing Studebaker to other car companies or models that were around less than 5 years (Tucker, Kaiser-Frazer, Edsel, Corvair) or 75 years (Hudson, Nash,Rambler,AMC,Jeep-Eagle).
The members of the Studebaker Driver's Club have been at this a long time and we can keep on driving Studebakers because we have a good organization and have lots of spare parts. We are the only car club where horseless carriages built by the same manufacturer occasionally attends their meets.
Jeep/ Willys wouldn't be in this category, as it did have impact, and I don't think we lumped that brand in with the rest.
By "progress" i mean things like turbocharging, fuel-injection, "pony cars", "muscle cars", FWD, ABS, air bags, the "infinite options" approach to marketing, product diversity, aero styling, the short-stroke hi compression V8--- those sorts of things.
The "little guys" borrowed more from the past then looked to the future---because their own futures were always in peril.
Superchargers, flathead engines, cable-driven overdrives, carburetors, live axles, RWD----these are all 1930s technology.
As for the transition from wagons to cars, I'm not sure this is more than an historical curiosity. Some companies went from making artillery to cars, some from bicycles to cars, some from plumbing fixtures to cars, and some merely put engines in their horse-drawn carriages.
I think that shows just how advanced the 1953 body was...that it could still be used in 1958, and if Studebaker hadn't been starved for resources, still would have looked good. Or heck, the fact that the Hawk held on through 1964, on what was basically the 1953 body.
Like you mentioned before, there weren't too many cars around in 1953 that would have lasted so long. Most 1953 cars looked ancient when the '55's rolled out.
The coupes and hardtops were so low and long that Studebaker could not base its sedans on that body and frame and the great demand for the "C" and "K"caused production problems for the sedans, which looked short and narrow by comparison. As a result, Studebaker's two-door coupes had a much longer wheelbase than its 4 door sedans and station wagons. Even today, the "C" and "K" are low and streamlined cars, which is amazing considering that they have body on frame construction with flat floors and they ride on 15-inch wheels. The visibility from the inside cannot be beat unless you are riding in a convertible with the top down.
Jeep has a very interesting history as a model that was built in various places by various companies. It was built because the US Army wanted a quarter-ton truck and the American Bantam Company of Butler Pennsylvania built a few, but that company was not large enough to handle the volume. Willys and Ford built them during WWII, then Willys after the war, then Kaiser Jeep Corporation, then AMC, then Chrysler. Eventually, Jeep may become a division of Fiat.
Meanwhile the German "Jeep" evolved into Volkswagen, which is now bigger than the Ford Motor Company and had a longer production run with more "beetles" sold than than the Ford Model A or T. By that standard, Jeep was a small truck that evolved into a SUV which brought bad luck to most of the companies that built it. It is similar to the Avanti because it has a loyal fan base and seems to go on forever, no matter who builds them.
They didn't buy it, but it might work for you, if you are lucky. smiley emotorcom.
The 1964 Morgan is a Milestone Car, but nobody built 1965 Morgan clones
They did build, however Lotus clones (the Miata) and Mini clones (the new MINI) and BMW clones (every Japanese car made since 1990).
But no cars looked like Studebakers, at that time they were made, or thereafter.
We do not see, for instance, Avanti clones or '53 Studebaker clones.
And the Studebaker technology was very old.
So I think you might be confusing "period design" or "looking different" with "influential design".
These are really two separate discussions IMO.